Homosexuality in Golarion


Lost Omens Campaign Setting General Discussion

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Silver Crusade

Crystal Frasier wrote:
Malachi Silverclaw wrote:

It might be a good material component for the M to F version of the spell. : )

What would be a good material component for the F to M version?

Sadly, there don't seem to be as many universal pre-modern treatments for male transition, beyond binding, cutting or, or burning off your breasts. There are plants in different areas that produce a decent amount of botanical androgens, but not nearly as much as the human body really needs. The only one I know off-hand is that the Incas used to use a plant called Maca.

What happened to Inca women who used it?

Silver Crusade Assistant Software Developer

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Malachi Silverclaw wrote:

It might be a good material component for the M to F version of the spell. : )

What would be a good material component for the F to M version?

I don't honestly know. Probably has to be some but I've never looked into it and a quick google search just brings up advertisements for supplements. Fact is, there a billion supplements that are claimed to increase male potency. Testosterone is produced in the body from cholesterol so high fat meat content is usually high on the diet for people wanting to improve their testosterone.

I can give you some of the natural sources for mtf though and it consists of about three things. Estrogens, Progesterones and Androgen(Testosterone) Blockers. Estrogens are really easy to find in nature and they just need to be distilled and isolated. Wild Mexican Yams and PREgnant MARe urINE are the big ones here.

Androgen Blockers are a little more difficult. Many of them tend to be poisonous in large enough doses to be effective but many transgendered women who couldn't easily afford or obtain a subscription would often use black cohosh and spearmint often in tea form to a lesser extent. These are both easily cultivatable but difficult to deal with.

Progesterone can be found often in dill in very small quanties. Also in some herbs that have classically been used as premenstrual relief. Also certain yams. Yams are kind of a miracle food for bioidentical hormones.

Also realize that there are three types of estrogen that I know and each one has a differing effect on the system. Yams have one kind of estrogen naturally but they also synthesize a more expressive estrogen from it through some arcane patentable science method. No reason that they couldn't do the same in Golarion between magic and alchemy.

Silver Crusade Assistant Software Developer

Also, as a side note, there is one INCREDIBLY good source of estrogens and progesterones that are 100% bioidentical to human hormones... because they are infused with human hormones. Placenta. Which, sounds weird, but it has not been uncommon for women in days of old to eat their placenta as a means of dealing with postpartum depression. There are places that will makes pills from your placenta even today.

Liberty's Edge Digital Products Assistant

Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
Crystal Frasier wrote:
Malachi Silverclaw wrote:

It might be a good material component for the M to F version of the spell. : )

What would be a good material component for the F to M version?

Sadly, there don't seem to be as many universal pre-modern treatments for male transition, beyond binding, cutting or, or burning off your breasts. There are plants in different areas that produce a decent amount of botanical androgens, but not nearly as much as the human body really needs. The only one I know off-hand is that the Incas used to use a plant called Maca.
What happened to Inca women who used it?

Funny thing. When you genocidally exterminate an entire empire and purge their records, it's hard to know exact details. If it's like some herbal androgens, it might be enough to disrupt or even stop menstruation and maybe thicken their facial and body hair, but it won't cause the noteworthy physical changes modern hormone therapy does.

Sovereign Court Contributor

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Crystal Frasier wrote:
Malachi Silverclaw wrote:

It might be a good material component for the M to F version of the spell. : )

What would be a good material component for the F to M version?

Sadly, there don't seem to be as many universal pre-modern treatments for male transition, beyond binding, cutting or, or burning off your breasts. There are plants in different areas that produce a decent amount of botanical androgens, but not nearly as much as the human body really needs. The only one I know off-hand is that the Incas used to use a plant called Maca.

Actually the Incans (or the Qeuchua) still use a plant called Maca. You can buy it in powdered form in health food stores...

Project Manager

Malachi Silverclaw wrote:

It might be a good material component for the M to F version of the spell. : )

What would be a good material component for the F to M version?

There are natural substances, even plant sources such as nettle, that contain or increase testosterone production. They might work as material components.

Liberty's Edge Digital Products Assistant

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Anyway, the roundabout purpose of these posts is that it's not unreasonable to think that hormone therapy is affordable in Golarion, if you know the right healer, alchemist, or cleric. It's probably a factor of just knowing what abundant ingredients to brew together and how. I imagine transgender mothers pass the knowledge on to their transgender daughters, that some alchemists learned the recipes thanks to having brothers born with a vagina, and that their entire priesthood of Arshea includes recipes in their prayer books.

Wes Schneider already covered magical transition here, so it's entirely canon in our world that polymorph can transform you into a fully fertile, anatomical version of your desired sex. The only question on the table is if alter self can.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Pawns, Rulebook Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Judy Bauer wrote:
1. Your mention of gripplis reminded me: it would also be interesting to explore orientation in species where reproduction is external and potentially completely decoupled from expressions of physical affection.

Tell me about it. When my wife decided she wanted to play a lesbian grippli in my Kingmaker game, I had to spend several hours on the Web trying to figure out if that concept even made any sense...


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Well, plenty of externally reproducing animals purposefully engage in sexual mimicry to distract reproductive rivals. So, I don't have any problem imagining two female grippli holding hands, admiring the sunset. In fact, you can get homosexual behavior in non-sapient amphibians by spritzing them with pheromones or hormones, so I don't think it's a stretch to say that more complex beings might vary in what signals they consider sexy.

While amphibian copulation is not what we are used to, I imagine they are hella good cuddlers.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Pawns, Rulebook Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Yeah, I eventually decided it did make sense, but it took some evaluating. And a lot more reading about amphibian (pseudo-) reproductive activities than I expected to be doing as part of Kingmaker prep.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Set wrote:

As for the subtopic of other races, such as Lashunta, and gender, there are a few races, such as Lizardfolk and Grippli, in the Bestiaries, that don't have anything really spelled out in the way of gender [...], making for all sorts of sideways possibilities, such as either or both of those races not having a fixed gender, but assuming male roles (and physiology) in times when it would not be suitable to reproduce, and more and more 'turning female' as conditions are suitable for having lots of kids (a bumper crop of food, a new territory opening up, etc.). Gender relations in a race that switches gender situationally could be pretty fluid, even by the standards of humanoids who think themselves pretty open-minded.

In such a case, a 'queer' individual (defining 'queer' as someone who is bucking traditional gender roles) might be one that very strongly prefers being only one gender, and takes steps to avoid transitioning, or disguise signs that it has transitioned, since it doesn't like being the other gender than the one it prefers.

Judy Bauer wrote:

1. Your mention of gripplis reminded me: it would also be interesting to explore orientation in species where reproduction is external and potentially completely decoupled from expressions of physical affection.

2. Reminds me of The Left Hand of Darkness, set in a world where people take on gendered attributes only when they (more or less) go into heat, and consider permanent gender a form of perversion.

Another interesting option would be in the style of Golden Witchbreed (by Mary Gentle). The novel's Ortheans (a humanoid race on another planet) produce androgynous children who are often mistaken for boys by visiting humans. These children go through a fever-wracked change during puberty, becoming full-blown males or females. As a child's future sex is unknown, society simply trains children according to their individual talents instead of their perceived future gender roles - resulting in female soldiers (one character is a female general), male nurses, etc.

I've actually stolen that idea for my version of elves. It was just so perfect when PF declared them to be aliens in the Golarion setting. :) I also decided that it would be a good basis for a society which didn't care about the sex of couples (or larger marital groupings). You love whom you love, period. Of course, unless certain magics (or science) is brought into play, the birth rate could be rather low ...


pres man wrote:
BoEF has a Reverse Gender spell (Clr 2, Wiz 3) that can be used to get someone pregnant (specifically states it can). Yeah for backwards-compatibility.

Neat find, I've never read the BoEF. Being level 2-3 makes it a pretty easy spell to get a hold of. Unfortunatly I'm not as optimistic about humanity as most others seem to be. I see alot of... terrible things, becomming possible with the inclusion of this spell.


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Shisumo wrote:
Yeah, I eventually decided it did make sense, but it took some evaluating. And a lot more reading about amphibian (pseudo-) reproductive activities than I expected to be doing as part of Kingmaker prep.

Your browser history has got to be awesome


Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
Crystal Frasier wrote:
Malachi Silverclaw wrote:

It might be a good material component for the M to F version of the spell. : )

What would be a good material component for the F to M version?

Sadly, there don't seem to be as many universal pre-modern treatments for male transition, beyond binding, cutting or, or burning off your breasts. There are plants in different areas that produce a decent amount of botanical androgens, but not nearly as much as the human body really needs. The only one I know off-hand is that the Incas used to use a plant called Maca.
What happened to Inca women who used it?

You don't want to know. ;D


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You know, looking again at that comment I made about browser history makes me wonder, with this thread in particular, if the NSA guys assigned to watch us go home every night with their eyes crossed, or something like that.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
RJGrady wrote:
Has any Paizo product ever depicted a relationship between a reptilian humanoid and a a mammal, homosexual or otherwise?

IIRC there's King Irovetti (Human) and Engelidis (Spirit Naga) from Kingmaker as well as Kerdak Bonefist (Human) and Hyapatia (Lamia Matriarch) from Skull and Shackles.

Managing Editor

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Rysky wrote:
RJGrady wrote:
Has any Paizo product ever depicted a relationship between a reptilian humanoid and a a mammal, homosexual or otherwise?
IIRC there's King Irovetti (Human) and Engelidis (Spirit Naga) from Kingmaker as well as Kerdak Bonefist (Human) and Hyapatia (Lamia Matriarch) from Skull and Shackles.

Don't forget Pirate's Honor, which is a Pathfinder Tales novel all about the romance between a human pirate and his lunar naga navigator!

Liberty's Edge Digital Products Assistant

James Sutter wrote:
Rysky wrote:
RJGrady wrote:
Has any Paizo product ever depicted a relationship between a reptilian humanoid and a a mammal, homosexual or otherwise?
IIRC there's King Irovetti (Human) and Engelidis (Spirit Naga) from Kingmaker as well as Kerdak Bonefist (Human) and Hyapatia (Lamia Matriarch) from Skull and Shackles.
Don't forget Pirate's Honor, which is a Pathfinder Tales novel all about the romance between a human pirate and his lunar naga navigator!

Worth noting that these are all heterosexual mammal/reptile pairings...


Can you really call them hetero? I mean in the strictest sense, sure, but we've already begun suggesting that Gender Roles in Golarion are not what we would say are comparable to Earth.


James Sutter wrote:
Rysky wrote:
RJGrady wrote:
Has any Paizo product ever depicted a relationship between a reptilian humanoid and a a mammal, homosexual or otherwise?
IIRC there's King Irovetti (Human) and Engelidis (Spirit Naga) from Kingmaker as well as Kerdak Bonefist (Human) and Hyapatia (Lamia Matriarch) from Skull and Shackles.
Don't forget Pirate's Honor, which is a Pathfinder Tales novel all about the romance between a human pirate and his lunar naga navigator!

A pirate's life is very lonely, I guess.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

How common are consensual relationships going to be between a lizardfolk and a human? I can't imagine that the typical person or lizardfolk even remotely consider the other species attractive, not to mention even compatible.

Liberty's Edge Digital Products Assistant

Generic Dungeon Master wrote:
Can you really call them hetero? I mean in the strictest sense, sure, but we've already begun suggesting that Gender Roles in Golarion are not what we would say are comparable to Earth.

In each case it's someone male-identified (each time a human) pairing with someone female-identified (each time a reptiloid). The characters may be bi or pan or straight or whichever, but the couplings themselves are heterosexual

Paizo Employee Associate Editor

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Not reptilian, but there's a queer avian-mammal pairing in Shattered Star (harpy/catfolk).

Liberty's Edge Digital Products Assistant

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Judy Bauer wrote:
Not reptilian, but there's a queer avian-mammal pairing in Shattered Star (harpy/catfolk).

And NOW we're back on track!

Also, stashing this one in my fantasies drawer...


Generic Dungeon Master wrote:
Can you really call them hetero? I mean in the strictest sense, sure, but we've already begun suggesting that Gender Roles in Golarion are not what we would say are comparable to Earth.

I think you can, they are male and female pairings... differant races yes, but stil M/F. Just as if they were both M/M or F/F they would be a gay or lesbian couple. Even if the female is a warrior and the male is "trophy husband" or what not, I think it still applies. Hetero and G/L relationships I think have more to do with the sex of the partners than perspective genders.

The Etruscans didn't have well defines gender roles. They recently uncovered another tomb with a skeleton of a princess buried with a spear and shield. On the next slab was her... boyfriend, husband, lover? It wasn't defined I don't think... But the remains were male and covered in jewelery. Her role in society was a warrior, but she was still a woman. I would qualify that as a "Hetero" relationship, personally.

In the movie "The Bird Cage" (One of my favorites BTW) Nathan Lanes character acts very feminine and think of himself as a woman, but I don't think I would qualify their relationship as "Hetero".

Silver Crusade

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Judy Bauer wrote:
Not reptilian, but there's a queer avian-mammal pairing in Shattered Star (harpy/catfolk).

Heh.

'This is me bird.' : )

Silver Crusade Assistant Software Developer

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Captain Wacky wrote:
Generic Dungeon Master wrote:
Can you really call them hetero? I mean in the strictest sense, sure, but we've already begun suggesting that Gender Roles in Golarion are not what we would say are comparable to Earth.

I think you can, they are male and female pairings... differant races yes, but stil M/F. Just as if they were both M/M or F/F they would be a gay or lesbian couple. Even if the female is a warrior and the male is "trophy husband" or what not, I think it still applies. Hetero and G/L relationships I think have more to do with the sex of the partners than perspective genders.

The Etruscans didn't have well defines gender roles. They recently uncovered another tomb with a skeleton of a princess buried with a spear and shield. On the next slab was her... boyfriend, husband, lover? It wasn't defined I don't think... But the remains were male and covered in jewelery. Her role in society was a warrior, but she was still a woman. I would qualify that as a "Hetero" relationship, personally.

In the movie "The Bird Cage" (One of my favorites BTW) Nathan Lanes character acts very feminine and think of himself as a woman, but I don't think I would qualify their relationship as "Hetero".

I would like to take this moment to say, God bless the Etruscans. Damned if they weren't awesome and too short lived.

Liberty's Edge Digital Products Assistant

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Lissa Guillet wrote:
I would like to take this moment to say, God bless the Etruscans. Damned if they weren't awesome and too short lived.

Can we also get a shout-out for the Scythians, who Plato and Homer based the Amazons on!

Webstore Gninja Minion

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Crystal Frasier wrote:
Lissa Guillet wrote:
I would like to take this moment to say, God bless the Etruscans. Damned if they weren't awesome and too short lived.
Can we also get a shout-out for the Scythians, who Plato and Homer based the Amazons on!

I'm also very fond of the Minoans.

Sovereign Court Contributor

Let us not forget the Mino.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
James Sutter wrote:
Rysky wrote:
RJGrady wrote:
Has any Paizo product ever depicted a relationship between a reptilian humanoid and a a mammal, homosexual or otherwise?
IIRC there's King Irovetti (Human) and Engelidis (Spirit Naga) from Kingmaker as well as Kerdak Bonefist (Human) and Hyapatia (Lamia Matriarch) from Skull and Shackles.
Don't forget Pirate's Honor, which is a Pathfinder Tales novel all about the romance between a human pirate and his lunar naga navigator!

Curse you froggy! Making me spend more money on books.

I guess to take from this is that there is a very sensual appeal to snake women... Oooo I would really like to see a Medusa/Lamia pairing now.

Sovereign Court Contributor

Rysky wrote:
James Sutter wrote:
Rysky wrote:
RJGrady wrote:
Has any Paizo product ever depicted a relationship between a reptilian humanoid and a a mammal, homosexual or otherwise?
IIRC there's King Irovetti (Human) and Engelidis (Spirit Naga) from Kingmaker as well as Kerdak Bonefist (Human) and Hyapatia (Lamia Matriarch) from Skull and Shackles.
Don't forget Pirate's Honor, which is a Pathfinder Tales novel all about the romance between a human pirate and his lunar naga navigator!

Curse you froggy! Making me spend more money on books.

I guess to take from this is that there is a very sensual appeal to snake women... Oooo I would really like to see a Medusa/Lamia pairing now.

The original Medusa or Gorgon and Lamia, I think, were both daughters of Echidna. Hmm. I know that Lamashtu took over Echidna's portfolio, but she would make an interesting (and somewhat tragic) mythic drakaina.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Jeff Erwin wrote:
Rysky wrote:
James Sutter wrote:
Rysky wrote:
RJGrady wrote:
Has any Paizo product ever depicted a relationship between a reptilian humanoid and a a mammal, homosexual or otherwise?
IIRC there's King Irovetti (Human) and Engelidis (Spirit Naga) from Kingmaker as well as Kerdak Bonefist (Human) and Hyapatia (Lamia Matriarch) from Skull and Shackles.
Don't forget Pirate's Honor, which is a Pathfinder Tales novel all about the romance between a human pirate and his lunar naga navigator!

Curse you froggy! Making me spend more money on books.

I guess to take from this is that there is a very sensual appeal to snake women... Oooo I would really like to see a Medusa/Lamia pairing now.

The original Medusa or Gorgon and Lamia, I think, were both daughters of Echidna. Hmm. I know that Lamashtu took over Echidna's portfolio, but she would make an interesting (and somewhat tragic) mythic drakaina.

Stupid mythic murderhobos going around murdering all dem monster babies.


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Bellona wrote:
Set wrote:

As for the subtopic of other races, such as Lashunta, and gender, there are a few races, such as Lizardfolk and Grippli, in the Bestiaries, that don't have anything really spelled out in the way of gender [...], making for all sorts of sideways possibilities, such as either or both of those races not having a fixed gender, but assuming male roles (and physiology) in times when it would not be suitable to reproduce, and more and more 'turning female' as conditions are suitable for having lots of kids (a bumper crop of food, a new territory opening up, etc.). Gender relations in a race that switches gender situationally could be pretty fluid, even by the standards of humanoids who think themselves pretty open-minded.

In such a case, a 'queer' individual (defining 'queer' as someone who is bucking traditional gender roles) might be one that very strongly prefers being only one gender, and takes steps to avoid transitioning, or disguise signs that it has transitioned, since it doesn't like being the other gender than the one it prefers.

Judy Bauer wrote:

1. Your mention of gripplis reminded me: it would also be interesting to explore orientation in species where reproduction is external and potentially completely decoupled from expressions of physical affection.

2. Reminds me of The Left Hand of Darkness, set in a world where people take on gendered attributes only when they (more or less) go into heat, and consider permanent gender a form of perversion.
Another interesting option would be in the style of Golden Witchbreed (by Mary Gentle). The novel's Ortheans (a humanoid race on another planet) produce androgynous children who are often mistaken for boys by visiting humans. These children go through a fever-wracked change during puberty, becoming full-blown males or females. As a child's future sex is unknown, society simply trains children according to their individual talents instead of...

I'd also like to see more races with sexual patterns very different than humans. Extreme sexual dimorphism, physical and/or mental, not necessarily big strong violent males/small weak docile or manipulative females, but definitely leading to very gender based roles.

Sex switching during the lifecycle, like some fish do?
Or more than two sexes? I'm thinking Varley's centaurs, but now that I look they only had two sexes. Up to 4 could be involved in reproduction though.

Paizo Employee Associate Editor

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thejeff wrote:

I'd also like to see more races with sexual patterns very different than humans. Extreme sexual dimorphism, physical and/or mental, not necessarily big strong violent males/small weak docile or manipulative females, but definitely leading to very gender based roles.

Sex switching during the lifecycle, like some fish do?
Or more than two sexes? I'm thinking Varley's centaurs, but now that I look they only had two sexes. Up to 4 could be involved in reproduction though.

I hope we get to explore Outsea in the River Kingdoms in greater detail for much that reason—the ceratioidi are a good example of extreme (and complicated) dimorphism.

For examples of more than two sexes, I'd recommend Octavia Butler's Lillith's Brood series.

Silver Crusade

Hot damn this thread got educational and awesome again pretty fast. :)


I'm kind of reminded of slaughterhouse five and the seven people involved in reproduction.

Liberty's Edge Digital Products Assistant

I'd always wanted to write up a fantasy or sci-fi society with three separate genders and figure out relationships and romance would work in that.

Sovereign Court Contributor

Crystal Frasier wrote:
I'd always wanted to write up a fantasy or sci-fi society with three separate genders and figure out relationships and romance would work in that.

Do you think such an arrangement would be more or less stable? Would it mean a more cooperative culture, or one where power dynamics are unstable and uncertain? I don't know...

If the beings are basically humanoid, how would they differ from us?

(Asking as a serious question)


If I recall correctly don't dolphins use a third to help with the... um... pushing?

Could be something like that.

Or perhaps they have three chromosomes and each parent type only provides one of the three?

Could be like a plant or corral and do a mass release at a certain time.

Sovereign Court Contributor

I seem to recall a SF story I read where one sex provides the sperm, one the eggs, and the third brings the fertilized egg to term. Sort of like surrogate mothers, though with a greater role in the family/triad-bond after birth.

Silver Crusade

Crystal Frasier wrote:
I'd always wanted to write up a fantasy or sci-fi society with three separate genders and figure out relationships and romance would work in that.

There's still of lot of fleshing out left to do for the kasatha, trox, and who knows who else out in the Distant Worlds. :)

Wonder if you could do something like this with the Ghorans too, if they were to develop a means to truly reproduce rather than giving birth to themselves repeatedly.

(IIRC, Golarion flumphs are written as having reproduction be a communal effort, with it ultimately being organized into a sort of space program)


Mike Franke wrote:

I'm not sure I would allow a spell to allow reproduction, certainly not a low level spell. Alter-self definite no for me. Polymorph...maybe. Shapechange as stronger maybe.

Using a spell to change your form (even if changing sex is allowed which I am not sure it is) would in my opinion have the same effect as a sex change operation. You look different but you do not functionally become a different sex for reproductive purposes.

The only magic I would definitely allow would be wish or similar magic.

Why? 3.5e Eberron's changelings did just fine with the equivalent of a 1st-level polymorph powering their shapeshifting, and per setting canon, they were fertile as either sex (and could turn fertility on/off by choice) within their race and with other humanoids... and it did nothing to unbalance their race.

Most players and GMs aren't going to care, but why close the door to something that has a negligible mechanical benefit but plenty of plot & role-playing hooks for those who wish to explore it?

Silver Crusade

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Ambrosia Slaad wrote:
Mike Franke wrote:

I'm not sure I would allow a spell to allow reproduction, certainly not a low level spell. Alter-self definite no for me. Polymorph...maybe. Shapechange as stronger maybe.

Using a spell to change your form (even if changing sex is allowed which I am not sure it is) would in my opinion have the same effect as a sex change operation. You look different but you do not functionally become a different sex for reproductive purposes.

The only magic I would definitely allow would be wish or similar magic.

Why? 3.5e Eberron's changelings did just fine with the equivalent of a 1st-level polymorph powering their shapeshifting, and per setting canon, they were fertile as either sex (and could turn fertility on/off by choice) within their race and with other humanoids... and it did nothing to unbalance their race.

Most players and GMs aren't going to care, but why close the door to something that has a negligible mechanical benefit but plenty of plot & role-playing hooks for those who wish to explore it?

Imagine the Skindancers of Wayfinder #7 could manage that as well, eh? Or would the different nature of their shapeshifting run interference there?

Just realized this might actually be relevant for my Shattered Star campaign...


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Ambrosia Slaad wrote:
Mike Franke wrote:

I'm not sure I would allow a spell to allow reproduction, certainly not a low level spell. Alter-self definite no for me. Polymorph...maybe. Shapechange as stronger maybe.

Using a spell to change your form (even if changing sex is allowed which I am not sure it is) would in my opinion have the same effect as a sex change operation. You look different but you do not functionally become a different sex for reproductive purposes.

The only magic I would definitely allow would be wish or similar magic.

Why? 3.5e Eberron's changelings did just fine with the equivalent of a 1st-level polymorph powering their shapeshifting, and per setting canon, they were fertile as either sex (and could turn fertility on/off by choice) within their race and with other humanoids... and it did nothing to unbalance their race.

Most players and GMs aren't going to care, but why close the door to something that has a negligible mechanical benefit but plenty of plot & role-playing hooks for those who wish to explore it?

Like clown fish can? I've always thought that that would add an interesting spin to merfolk :)

Silver Crusade

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MMCJawa wrote:
Judy Bauer wrote:


1. Your mention of gripplis reminded me: it would also be interesting to explore orientation in species where reproduction is external and potentially completely decoupled from expressions of physical affection

.

Oh god amphibians...Frog and Salamander based species have so many weird breeding behaviors, you could think of endless iterations. Include frogs which store their offspring in their stomachs or larynx...

Y'know, a grippli carrying her developing young in her back* could be really neat.

Sure it could be squicky, but played right it could also be played as adorable. And squicky.

*Alternately, skip to the end.


Captain Wacky wrote:
James Sutter wrote:
Rysky wrote:
RJGrady wrote:
Has any Paizo product ever depicted a relationship between a reptilian humanoid and a a mammal, homosexual or otherwise?
IIRC there's King Irovetti (Human) and Engelidis (Spirit Naga) from Kingmaker as well as Kerdak Bonefist (Human) and Hyapatia (Lamia Matriarch) from Skull and Shackles.
Don't forget Pirate's Honor, which is a Pathfinder Tales novel all about the romance between a human pirate and his lunar naga navigator!
A pirate's life is very lonely, I guess.

Or you know, Captain Wacky, it's also possible the pirate and his crewmamber just found their ideal partners/soulmates? Is that so weird?

With naga and nagaji (and possibly vishkanya), not only do I wonder about whether they are capable of parthenogenesis, but also if some might use female mimicry like some snakes do, such as the red-sided garter snake? (warning for instance of insensitive language choice in abstract) Or are some grippli capable of protogyny as some frog species do? If either of these can happen, how would it effect their social interactions and traditions, or color their interactions with and perceptions of other humanoids?


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Mikaze wrote:
Ambrosia Slaad wrote:
Mike Franke wrote:

I'm not sure I would allow a spell to allow reproduction, certainly not a low level spell. Alter-self definite no for me. Polymorph...maybe. Shapechange as stronger maybe.

Using a spell to change your form (even if changing sex is allowed which I am not sure it is) would in my opinion have the same effect as a sex change operation. You look different but you do not functionally become a different sex for reproductive purposes.

The only magic I would definitely allow would be wish or similar magic.

Why? 3.5e Eberron's changelings did just fine with the equivalent of a 1st-level polymorph powering their shapeshifting, and per setting canon, they were fertile as either sex (and could turn fertility on/off by choice) within their race and with other humanoids... and it did nothing to unbalance their race.

Most players and GMs aren't going to care, but why close the door to something that has a negligible mechanical benefit but plenty of plot & role-playing hooks for those who wish to explore it?

Imagine the Skindancers of Wayfinder #7 could manage that as well, eh? Or would the different nature of their shapeshifting run interference there?

Just realized this might actually be relevant for my Shattered Star campaign...

I tried to hint at it in the skindancer article, but they are fertile in either form (and like Eberron's changelings, can turn fertility on/off). They are naturally ovoviviparous, but within the rare well-hidden and -protected skindancer enclaves/communities, they will often lay the post-first trimester fertilized eggs in communal "birthing pools" to further develop and hatch. Such young tend to have higher immune systems & viability and are often more social as adults. Skindancers carrying young are form-locked, outside of very minor cosmetic changes, until the birth. Skindancer children carried by a skindancer mother or born in a birthing pool learn to control their chromatophores/iridophores/leucophores as they mature, but they are incapable of shapeshifting until late puberty. Skindancer children carried by a non-skindancer mother are form-locked in the appearance of the mother's race until late puberty when their shapeshifting abilities (and dermal color-changing) awakens.

Silver Crusade

Ambrosia Slaad wrote:
I tried to hint at it in the skindancer article, but they are fertile in either form (and like Eberron's changelings, can turn fertility on/off). They are naturally ovoviviparous, but within the rare well-hidden and -protected skindancer enclaves/communities, they will often lay the post-first trimester fertilized eggs in communal "birthing pools" to further develop and hatch. Such young tend to have higher immune systems & viability and are often more social as adults. Skindancers carrying young are form-locked, outside of very minor cosmetic changes, until the birth. Skindancer children carried by a skindancer mother...

Okay, now I've got a lot more to work with for fleshing out the culture and background for those skindancer sibling NPCs.

Shattered Star MAJOR SPOILER:
And also one hell of a bomb to drop on any PC that chooses to become one to regain their form after "That Trap".

"Wait, I can do what now?"

This is also going to raise the stakes for that invisible skindancer/faceless stalker war that's gonna be a-brewin' in Magnimar, when keeping the location of those pools secret becoming critically important, as well as protecting them from the events of Book 6.

Thanks. :D

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Mikaze wrote:
Ambrosia Slaad wrote:
I tried to hint at it in the skindancer article, but they are fertile in either form (and like Eberron's changelings, can turn fertility on/off). They are naturally ovoviviparous, but within the rare well-hidden and -protected skindancer enclaves/communities, they will often lay the post-first trimester fertilized eggs in communal "birthing pools" to further develop and hatch. Such young tend to have higher immune systems & viability and are often more social as adults. Skindancers carrying young are form-locked, outside of very minor cosmetic changes, until the birth. Skindancer children carried by a skindancer mother...

Okay, now I've got a lot more to work with for fleshing out the culture and background for those skindancer sibling NPCs.

** spoiler omitted **

Thanks. :D

Spoiler:
Is it weird that I don't really view that as trap?
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