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There will be those that are morally offended by a gay iconic. I'm not one, but those people must be tolerated as well- or are their feelings on the topic invalid?That puts us back in "why aren't you tolerant of intolerance?"
Paizo is not about to start excluding people to satisfy prejudices that we are long past needing to have left behind.
Now back to Golarion and homosexuality in it
Or rather, next door...
What about Castrovel? Specifically the Lashunta. Considering the cultural gender divide between them, helped along by the extreme dimorphism, one really has to wonder how romantic relationships tend to take shape between and within both groups.
Well, now all I can picture is a lesbian Lashunta picking up a male elf and going back to her place, only to realize: "Oh crap, not again! Fricken non-gender dimorphic elves!"
Alter Self does not change your type, like other polymorph spells it's essentially putting on a costume.
By extension it can also be said not to change your true gender since it's a temporary spell. It would take a full change of gender such as the gender changing belt for this scenario to actually occur.
I think you meant to say "sex," not "gender."
And I don't think type is quite the same as sex. If alter self can give abilities like darkvision or scent, I see no reason why it can't alter someone's physiology to accommodate reproduction. This is explicitly left out of the spells description, but it seems completely plausible to me to allow alter self to act this way.
It's helpful to understand that physical sex and gender are not the same thing. It's unfortunate that stuff like the Girdle of Masculinity/Femininity collapse the two, but the rest of us aren't behold to a misconception that has persisted in a legacy item. That said, let's look at what polymorph spells can do:Alter Self does not change your type, like other polymorph spells it's essentially putting on a costume.
By extension it can also be said not to change your true gender since it's a temporary spell. It would take a full change of gender such as the gender changing belt for this scenario to actually occur.
Polymorph: a polymorph spell transforms your physical body to take on the shape of another creature... Unless otherwise noted, polymorph spells cannot be used to change into specific individuals. Although many of the fine details can be controlled, your appearance is always that of a generic member of that creature's type.
It doesn't explicitly say whether polymorph spells let you pick the sex of the form you take. But I think it's rather unreasonable to say that the "fine details" you can control don't include genitalia. Alter self can give you scent, darkvision, and a swim speeed; surely choosing the sex of your form is within its power.
It will let you turn into plenty of things that are hermaphroditic, or third-sexed (like worker ants).
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Well, now all I can picture is a lesbian Lashunta picking up a male elf and going back to her place, only to realize: "Oh crap, not again! Fricken non-gender dimorphic elves!"There will be those that are morally offended by a gay iconic. I'm not one, but those people must be tolerated as well- or are their feelings on the topic invalid?That puts us back in "why aren't you tolerant of intolerance?"
Paizo is not about to start excluding people to satisfy prejudices that we are long past needing to have left behind.
Now back to Golarion and homosexuality in it
Or rather, next door...
What about Castrovel? Specifically the Lashunta. Considering the cultural gender divide between them, helped along by the extreme dimorphism, one really has to wonder how romantic relationships tend to take shape between and within both groups.
Actually that would probably be a serious concern. If a species is strongly sexually dimorphic, they may very well be confused by non-dimorphic races/less dimorphic races.IRL, I think this is considered a significant barrier to reproduction between certain species. Off the top of my head, I think this applies to birds with strong sexual dimorphism...Female birds belong to species with colorful males generally show no interest in the males of closely related species which look just like females.
At the other end of the scale, Imagine how much trouble humans have identifying the sex of at least some strains of lizardfolk, who probably have no visible sexual dimorphism, just like in some lizards.
Has any Paizo product ever depicted a relationship between a reptilian humanoid and a a mammal, homosexual or otherwise?
BoEF has a Reverse Gender spell (Clr 2, Wiz 3) that can be used to get someone pregnant (specifically states it can). Yeah for backwards-compatibility.
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Would everyone please stay on topic. It would be a damned shame if this thread got locked. It's had its bumps from time to time, but it is a very good thread. I think it could be very useful to a large number of gamers out there. So, please, keep things helpful, friendly, and on topic.
I'll reiterate this, since I'm not even sure why this arm of the discussion is still going.
As I've made clear above, most discussion of sexual preferences in our material is limited to simply noting that Bob the Baker is married to George the Tanner.All of which is perfectly acceptable, tolerant, and fair- as is fan speculation by and for those interested in such content.
Then what's the issue? If you find our inclusion "acceptable, tolerant, and fair," I'm not sure what you're debating or who you're debating with.
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Alter self can give you scent, darkvision, and a swim speeed; surely choosing the sex of your form is within its power.
I would similarly assume the same. The differences between the genders seem pretty insignificant compared to being able to assume a form with a swim speed (and therefore, by the polymorph rules, able to breathe underwater), or the various brain changes that would be needed to adjust to having scent.
As for the subtopic of other races, such as Lashunta, and gender, there are a few races, such as Lizardfolk and Grippli, in the Bestiaries, that don't have anything really spelled out in the way of gender (unlike ye olde days, when every other race had a chief and three subchiefs per X population, and half that number in noncombatant females and young...), making for all sorts of sideways possibilities, such as either or both of those races not having a fixed gender, but assuming male roles (and physiology) in times when it would not be suitable to reproduce, and more and more 'turning female' as conditions are suitable for having lots of kids (a bumper crop of food, a new territory opening up, etc.). Gender relations in a race that switches gender situationally could be pretty fluid, even by the standards of humanoids who think themselves pretty open-minded.
In such a case, a 'queer' individual (defining 'queer' as someone who is bucking traditional gender roles) might be one that very strongly prefers being only one gender, and takes steps to avoid transitioning, or disguise signs that it has transitioned, since it doesn't like being the other gender than the one it prefers.
PF doesn't really have an abundance of playable insect races, such as the Thri-Kreen or Spelljammers Xixchil or Rastipedes, or even Arduin Grimoires Phraints, so the sort of rigid gender roles that would be most likely among races that have specialized gender dimorphic castes, isn't really an issue, Lashunta aside. Similarly, Golarion Drow remain demon-worshipping psychopaths, but aren't specifically *matriarchal* demon-worshipping psychopaths.
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more neat stuffWhy aren't you a game designer? You always seem to come up with interesting nooks and crannies and extensions of the setting.
{appears in cheerleader outfit} I'm nudging/pushing Mikaze every chance I get. He's gotten into a couple Wayfinders and will make his debut (I think) in a paid 3PP very soon. :D
Has any Paizo product ever depicted a relationship between a reptilian humanoid and a a mammal, homosexual or otherwise?
I don't think so. I never thought about porting Jenny and Vastra into Golarion. So Vastra: nagaji, vishkanya, or ARG lizardfolk?
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{appears in cheerleader outfit} I'm nudging/pushing Mikaze every chance I get. He's gotten into a couple Wayfinders and will make his debut (I think) in a paid 3PP very soon. :Dmore neat stuffWhy aren't you a game designer? You always seem to come up with interesting nooks and crannies and extensions of the setting.
Whoa, hey. I'm not the only one posting on this page of this thread that's going to be in there, Ambrosia Slaad. ;)
Also, nagaji for sure.
...though actual nagas do have more appealing faces...
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In such a case, a 'queer' individual (defining 'queer' as someone who is bucking traditional gender roles) might be one that very strongly prefers being only one gender, and takes steps to avoid transitioning, or disguise signs that it has transitioned, since it doesn't like being the other gender than the one it prefers.
Wow. I would love to see this idea get some play somewhere, be it with the lizardfolk, samsarans(going by a longer view of course), or maybe even kasatha or shae.
The closest thing I can think of in Pathfinder canon isn't about gender and sex, but the Winterborn Triaxans that modify themselves to resemble the Summerborn might be viewed in a similar light.
What about Castrovel? Specifically the Lashunta. Considering the cultural gender divide between them, helped along by the extreme dimorphism, one really has to wonder how romantic relationships tend to take shape between and within both groups.Well, now all I can picture is a lesbian Lashunta picking up a male elf and going back to her place, only to realize: "Oh crap, not again! Fricken non-gender dimorphic elves!"Actually that would probably be a serious concern. If a species is strongly sexually dimorphic, they may very well be confused by non-dimorphic races/less dimorphic races.IRL, I think this is considered a significant barrier to reproduction between certain species. Off the top of my head, I think this applies to birds with strong sexual dimorphism...Female birds belong to species with colorful males generally show no interest in the males of closely related species which look just like females.
At the other end of the scale, Imagine how much trouble humans have identifying the sex of at least some strains of lizardfolk, who probably have no visible sexual dimorphism, just like in some lizards.
I don't know how serious a concern it would be, but yeah, given Castrovel's indigenous elf population, I could see it happening a lot. That is, I could see Lashunta applying their standards of Lashunta femininity to all elves, and ditto Lashunta masculinity and dwarves.
It's not Golarion, but the Aslan* from Traveller have such codified gender roles that they frequently get human sex wrong, because a woman with a beard is less remarkable to them than a male who can do clerical work.
*The first edition supplement makes a point of explaining that Aslan are physiologically completely different from terran lions, and then goes on to describe an alien society extrapolated entirely from lions; even at the age of thirteen I was all, "Dude, just say they coincidentally happen to be very similar to lions."
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How ironic that Annabel would call gay people like us as "queer folk", considering the original meaning of the word queer. I guess straight people are "not queer".I don't see the irony. It's well-known that "queer" has been re-appropriated from a slur to a positive term. In fact, the original meaning of queer is part of the political statement behind adopting the term. To adopt the term "queer" is to resist heteronormativity. Hence we have fields like queer theory, organizations like Queer Nation, and identities like genderqueer. But it's perfectly possible for straight people to be queer. Consider, for example, a straight trans man. He could be queer.
[
In that case, all these talk about what is acceptable terms to address a gay (queer to Annabel I suppose)character or a person for that matter is really a moot point as one term someone finds acceptable is offensive to another.
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BoEF has a Reverse Gender spell (Clr 2, Wiz 3) that can be used to get someone pregnant (specifically states it can). Yeah for backwards-compatibility.
Over 25 years ago a friend and I were creating a world in which to play Runequest 3rd ed. We made a list of all the tropes we didn't like about the way RPGs actually were like to play, and deliberately changed them. Most adventures were dungeon bashes, so we set our campaign in the biggest city in our country. Most games involved killing everything you see, because if you ever came across anyone friendly it would turn out to be a villain in disguise, so we decided our main character was well known and actually popular but he still had people who didn't like him and bad things would still happen.
One thing I wanted is to be able to play female adventurers, but I also wanted this to be a realistic choice for a woman. Thinking about the reasons why women in our history didn't have that freedom (without disguising themselves as male) I decided that there was a very common plant that when eaten had the effect of a 'morning after pill' and that this plant had been known and used for thousands of years.
This would not have left the world unchanged. The ability to control your own fertility, coupled with magic that cures diseases and conditions, would have a major effect on the development of societies, and (the one I was going for) the freedom of women.
The reason I mention this here is the reverse gender spell. If this were brought into Pathfinder/Golarion it would not leave the world unchanged. The institution(s) of marriage would have evolved with this in mind, and would have evolved differently, allowing same-sex marriage even where dynastic succession is an issue.
I've always balked at the idea that our game worlds would be just like our own world 'but with added magic'. Magic would change the world. Castles would be designed differently if air attack/teleportation were an available wartime tool, for example.
So it would be a braver, more adventurous, riskier choice for Paizo to:-
a.) create/adapt a reverse gender spell
b.) account for this spell in world design
I think both worlds, Earth and Golarion, would be better for it.
What level of spell was reverse gender? how influential it would be in a setting is completely dependent on how commonly available it will be to casters, and how common casters of the appropriate level are to cast it.
If a relatively low level cleric/wizard can cast it, we might expect the spell to be as frequently employed in solving issues concerning mismatch of gender and sex as cure light wounds are for healing injuries.
If it's uncommon enough in the campaign setting, it may then be something only available to the rich. In that case, the impact of the spell may be more minor,and it may have negative connotations if it is strongly associated with "The decadent elite", if the poorer classes are oppressed.
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Tangent: "morning after pills" are almost universally available in hunter-gatherer societies. It's not until you impose patriarchical systems of order and displacing traditional medicine with philosophy that birth control disappears for a few hundred years.
As for castles and marriage laws, it's easier if you assume high-level magic isn't ubiquitous. Still, you'd have a few cases on the books of people being frozen in time for three hundred years, then killed and reincarnated as a being of a difference race, changing their gender, and then showing up to claim their place as the rightful heir to the Duchy of XYZ. You know all those tests Tibetan monks do to figure out if someone is a reincarnation? Similar things would have to be employed in Golarion. "Well, the thing is, my grandfather was always a polymorphed gold dragon and I am the heir to the Hutchins family fortune!"
Sometimes it's hard to know when to stop, but I tend to assume that Golarion functions at the level of liberality and flexibility you find in the typical ren faire scene. There are some unusually conservative people here and there promoting awkward conceptions of chivalry, but most people are laid back, and the ground is thick with what would be considered weirdoes in mainstream American society... :)
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One thing I wanted is to be able to play female adventurers, but I also wanted this to be a realistic choice for a woman. Thinking about the reasons why women in our history didn't have that freedom (without disguising themselves as male) I decided that there was a very common plant that when eaten had the effect of a 'morning after pill' and that this plant had been known and used for thousands of years.
Actually, I believe the equivalent cantrip (i.e., easy spirit magic spell) did exist in Glorantha. Ernalda (goddess of mothers) taught it, along with a spell for conception.
In this case, it made women who worshipped her far more in control of their lives. But she wasn't worshipped everywhere.
I can't imagine that this wouldn't have been researched and taught to at least female (and some male) arcane casters in Golarion long, long ago. Hence an easy way to explain some of the differences in gender roles in "modern" Golarion from traditional fantasy or medieval/renaissance Earth. I would also imagine the spell exists for clerics of some of the major gods as well.
This is to my mind a perfectly logical rationale for gender and amatory freedom being standard in Golarion. Not universal, but standard.
But... it's pretty much incidental to adventuring and if it appeared in print it would have to be canon. Which might upset some people.
Lets try this in a more simplistic manner. The polymorph spells explicitly say what they can grant from the forms you take. Reproductive ability isn't one of them.
The rules for polymorph also don't say whether blood circulates in your changed form or whether you can breathe. They don't state whether your polymorphed form can feel pain. They don't mention whether you can eat and digest food. They don't mention whether you can taste. It's absurd to think that you cannot do any of those things while polymorphed.
Anyway, are you surprised that the CRB doesn't go into detail on how to use polymorph for reproductive purposes? Really?
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Lets try this in a more simplistic manner. The polymorph spells explicitly say what they can grant from the forms you take. Reproductive ability isn't one of them.
Most PFRPG critters with change shape use some polymorph spell as the base, and they seem to crossbreed with humanoids and other critters just fine. Previous editions of D&D had no problems with dragons, fiends, and other shapeshifting critters crossbreeding with everything under the sun. Polymorph's reproductive facilitation is likely only omitted in the RAW because 1) very few players would need the info, and 2) very few players want to even think about such ramifications.
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or we could go for a real turn and say sex has nothing to do with reproduction in game. there could be other factors that cause pregnancy or just go xanth on the entire question.
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What level of spell was reverse gender? how influential it would be in a setting is completely dependent on how commonly available it will be to casters, and how common casters of the appropriate level are to cast it.
If a relatively low level cleric/wizard can cast it, we might expect the spell to be as frequently employed in solving issues concerning mismatch of gender and sex as cure light wounds are for healing injuries.
If it's uncommon enough in the campaign setting, it may then be something only available to the rich. In that case, the impact of the spell may be more minor,and it may have negative connotations if it is strongly associated with "The decadent elite", if the poorer classes are oppressed.
According to Pres Man, it was Clr2/Wiz3, making it pretty common!
or we could go for a real turn and say sex has nothing to do with reproduction in game.You're secretly a cleric of Jubilex, aren't you? ;)
there could be other factors that cause pregnancy or just go xanth on the entire question.
Xanth exceeds my LD50 of punnage, but I'm sure someone must have ported it over to F.A.T.E. by now.
or we could go for a real turn and say sex has nothing to do with reproduction in game. there could be other factors that cause pregnancy or just go xanth on the entire question.
I do like this approach! If we're going to imagine fantastic worlds filled with many different and interesting creatures, why should everyone fall into a narrow spectrum of reproduction? Even creatures that are similar to humans shouldn't have to follow real-world human reproduction.
But even for creatures that reproduce in the real-world human manner, magic has a huge impact.
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Lets try this in a more simplistic manner. The polymorph spells explicitly say what they can grant from the forms you take. Reproductive ability isn't one of them.The rules for polymorph also don't say whether blood circulates in your changed form or whether you can breathe. They don't state whether your polymorphed form can feel pain. They don't mention whether you can eat and digest food. They don't mention whether you can taste. It's absurd to think that you cannot do any of those things while polymorphed.
Anyway, are you surprised that the CRB doesn't go into detail on how to use polymorph for reproductive purposes? Really?
When you get down to it, (in humans, at least) the differences between the sexes are so mild that you can bridge everything but pregnancy with horse pee. I have zero trouble believing a second-level spell could make a CAFAB individual into a fertile male body, and if you could maintain the spell for four weeks (or nine months) that a CAMAB person could make use of a uterus.
When you get down to it, (in humans, at least) the differences between the sexes are so mild that you can bridge everything but pregnancy with horse pee.
I've never heard this before. How does this work?
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Has any Paizo product ever depicted a relationship between a reptilian humanoid and a mammal, homosexual or otherwise?
Sort of? See Pathfinder Tales: Pirate's Honor for a relevant example.
As for the subtopic of other races, such as Lashunta, and gender, there are a few races, such as Lizardfolk and Grippli, in the Bestiaries, that don't have anything really spelled out in the way of gender [...], making for all sorts of sideways possibilities, such as either or both of those races not having a fixed gender, but assuming male roles (and physiology) in times when it would not be suitable to reproduce, and more and more 'turning female' as conditions are suitable for having lots of kids (a bumper crop of food, a new territory opening up, etc.). Gender relations in a race that switches gender situationally could be pretty fluid, even by the standards of humanoids who think themselves pretty open-minded.
In such a case, a 'queer' individual (defining 'queer' as someone who is bucking traditional gender roles) might be one that very strongly prefers being only one gender, and takes steps to avoid transitioning, or disguise signs that it has transitioned, since it doesn't like being the other gender than the one it prefers.
1. Your mention of gripplis reminded me: it would also be interesting to explore orientation in species where reproduction is external and potentially completely decoupled from expressions of physical affection.
2. Reminds me of The Left Hand of Darkness, set in a world where people take on gendered attributes only when they (more or less) go into heat, and consider permanent gender a form of perversion.|
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When you get down to it, (in humans, at least) the differences between the sexes are so mild that you can bridge everything but pregnancy with horse pee.I've never heard this before. How does this work?
Premarin is a common form of hormone replacement therapy. It's estrogen that is taken from concentrated pregnant (PRE) Mare (MAR) urine (in).
Premarin is a common form of hormone replacement therapy. It's estrogen that is taken from concentrated pregnant (PRE) Mare (MAR) urine (in).When you get down to it, (in humans, at least) the differences between the sexes are so mild that you can bridge everything but pregnancy with horse pee.I've never heard this before. How does this work?
Ah, that makes sense. Thanks.
When you get down to it, (in humans, at least) the differences between the sexes are so mild that you can bridge everything but pregnancy with horse pee.I have never heard this before. How does this work?
If I'm remembering things correctly, horse urine contains higher doses of the necessary hormones. Not sure if it's still in common use for manufacturers or if they are manufactured synthetically now.
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When you get down to it, (in humans, at least) the differences between the sexes are so mild that you can bridge everything but pregnancy with horse pee.I've never heard this before. How does this work?
Urine from a mare in heat or pregnant contains high levels of estrogens almost identical to those produced by humans. Since ancient times, potions and pills made from it have been used to alleviate the symptoms of menopause and relieve menstrual cramps. In at least one example, the Scythians (who had a place of honor in their culture for trans women as priestesses) were reported by Ovid as having a "female poison" made from the urine of mares in heat.
In modern times, the most common estrogen supplement for cis or trans women is Premarin, which is literally made from pregnant mare urine. Unfortunately, the industrial practice is pretty cruel to the horses, and if you have interest in hormone replacement therapy I would encourage you to find another supplement.
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If I'm remembering things correctly, horse urine contains higher doses of the necessary hormones. Not sure if it's still in common use for manufacturers or if they are manufactured synthetically now.When you get down to it, (in humans, at least) the differences between the sexes are so mild that you can bridge everything but pregnancy with horse pee.I have never heard this before. How does this work?
Premarin still exists and is dirt cheap. Certainly not the most humane way to go about it. The horses have to be kept pregant basically and conditions are not all that great from what I've heard. That might have changed in the past 12 years since I last looked into it. It had side effects for me that were unpleasant. Also, the methods of isolating hormones, if I remember correctly, also isolated many hormones that didn't have a human analog so who knows what they do. Yams are also a source and bio identical. Their isolation leaves exactly one type of estrogen, I think. It's been awhile since I looked at all of that information. I generally warn people off premarin if I can. There are enough better sources of estrogen out there for HRT that are more accurate, more humane, and better for the environment.
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Besides, in a pre-industrial world such as Golarion, the tannery guilds have laid claim to all the urine. :P
or we could go for a real turn and say sex has nothing to do with reproduction in game. there could be other factors that cause pregnancy or just go xanth on the entire question.
Eh...I like playing in or reading about settings that, even if they have magic, everything is grounded in some sense of real life physics/biology/history/culture. It provides context for the fantastical things that are present.
Or we could go for a real turn and say sex has nothing to do with reproduction in game. There could be other factors that cause pregnancy.
Granted, it's neither Golarion nor even Pathfinder, but one of my favorite GURPS settings had the PC race procreation solely on whether or not the females got sufficiently excited 'that way'.
Which meant, among other things, the only guarantee of not getting pregnant was to make the experience too boring to be worth the effort...
1. Your mention of gripplis reminded me: it would also be interesting to explore orientation in species where reproduction is external and potentially completely decoupled from expressions of physical affection
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Oh god amphibians...Frog and Salamander based species have so many weird breeding behaviors, you could think of endless iterations. Include frogs which store their offspring in their stomachs or larynx...
2. Reminds me of The Left Hand of Darkness, set in a world where people take on gendered attributes only when they (more or less) go into heat, and consider permanent gender a form of perversion.
That would actually be a really cool idea for a race in Pathfinder... Not sure if any present player friendly race really fits that mode.
It might be a good material component for the M to F version of the spell. : )
What would be a good material component for the F to M version?
There's a long and storied history of using penises (and horns, or whatever phallus-shaped animal part you can think of) in alchemical nostrums over the centuries in our own world history. Not too much of a stretch there that it would be a material component.
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It might be a good material component for the M to F version of the spell. : )
What would be a good material component for the F to M version?
Sadly, there don't seem to be as many universal pre-modern treatments for male transition, beyond binding, cutting or, or burning off your breasts. There are plants in different areas that produce a decent amount of botanical androgens, but not nearly as much as the human body really needs. The only one I know off-hand is that the Incas used to use a plant called Maca.
Has any Paizo product ever depicted a relationship between a reptilian humanoid and a a mammal, homosexual or otherwise?
Recent Pathfinder novel had a relationship between a human and a naga but the naga was female and used magic to become a human female. In my opinion functionally changing sex involves a lot more than just changing your physical features.
I'm not sure I would allow a spell to allow reproduction, certainly not a low level spell. Alter-self definite no for me. Polymorph...maybe. Shapechange as stronger maybe.
Using a spell to change your form (even if changing sex is allowed which I am not sure it is) would in my opinion have the same effect as a sex change operation. You look different but you do not functionally become a different sex for reproductive purposes.
The only magic I would definitely allow would be wish or similar magic.