I know we're only worrying about rules right now, and that's as it should be. But I have some visual concerns, and I know art and art design can take a long time, especially if you're suggesting an unusual look. So I want to bring some things up now.
Women: There should be pretty close to 50% female representation for any important category. This includes sexy (half the sexy pics should be women), heavily armored, monsters (Grendel had a mom, remember?), and competent-looking. I don't want to argue about other books, I do want to say if a young woman decides she wants to play Joan of Arc in plate mail, and she opens Pathfinder, I would hate for her to decide she has to be a cleavage-baring sorceress or she can;t play.
This happens. You want more girls who understand your paladin stories? Make at least one iconic a heavily armored female. Sexy sorceress are good TOO, but should not be the sole, or even primary representation of women.
Culture: Paizo has some cool non-European cultures out there. Make sure they, in all their multicolored color, get some solid visual representation in the PRPG.
Cartoons: If this book is supposed to boil down the essence of D&D, it needs some funny cartoons. Preferably, like the ones in old 1st edition D&D books. This helps bring the old feel back in places, allows us to poke fun at ourselves, and breaks up the visual look in a way that tells DMs and players they can use these rules to tell THEIR stories, not just Paizo's.
I STRONGLY recommend both Stan! and Rich Burlew for these.
WotC seems to have forgotten D&D can be used for all kinds of stories, and their art shows a single, corporate, unified, intellectually protected, commercially identifiable, homogenized fantasy look. I personally think thyat's a HUGE mistake, and one Paizo is uniquely positioned to correct. A varied, colorful, inclusive art design is a good start for that.
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They mentioned that the icionics will be all over the new book. Do you like the way they have been introduced, and look, so far? If so I think we're already in good hands there!
Cartoons. Wow, while the nostalgia alone would be powerful, I have a feeling I wouldn't want them in a core book. But the artists you mentioned could do wonders with a panel or two in the DM's section.
-DM Jeff
Not that I need to point it out but CotCT has a pretty kick butt female paladin.
Yep, and she's perfect., I just need to see her, or someone like her, in the final pathfinder RPG core book.
And cartoons. Even in the core book, ESPECIALLY in the GM section, we need some old-time cartoons! Let's remind people these games are supposed to be FUN!
I imagine the the iconics will be the illustrations for each of the classes.
I know it doesn't have to do with the look, but if you're talking old school, I'd like to see something like the example of play script in the original DMG. That grabbed my imagination as much as anything, and I can still picture the scene with the ghouls in my head.
DG, you hit the spot with your comments...and I love the fact you brought up the cartoon angle. I agree a 100%, people need to be reminded that D&D is not just there for tactical mini-clubbing, but that it can be a lot of silly fun and should be that now and then.
Although I'd prefer some Nodwick strips, to be honest...Nodwick and his friends are a sort of "iconic D&D comedy" for me, and would look less out of place in a Paizo publication than Rich's OotS figures, who I love just as much. But think of the Nodwick strips in the Dungeon Magazine, keyed to the advetures. Perfect. :D
Anyway, seconded!
Can't say I agree with you re: cartoons at all, but I'm 1000% in agreement re: gender division & general depiction for the artwork.
Out of the iconics, only Seoni is consistently 'cheescakey' and the serious kick-assery of Kyra, Merisiel and Seelah is a major plus point IMHO.
I don't undertand about the cartoons. But I'd like to. :) Please explain. Why is it necessary to put cartoons in the core book?
I think we could all do with a reminder from time to time that we shouldn't take this too seriously.
Cartoons yes, but I vote for Mt. Zogon. No real reason for it other than it was my absolute favorite strip.
I'd actually probably vote for some Order of the Stick too (especially if used to illustrate why a rules change was made), but I don't know if dude could make his point in a strip that wouldn't take up an entire page.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Erik,
Cartoons. Really, seriously. Cartoons.
Shouldn't be comic strips. But in the section on encumbrance, if you've got room for an illustration at all, it should be a short Aaron Williams henchman, looking over a treasure trove with a despairing look in his eye.
And I'm really hoping that you can get Tony Mosley to draw an underground druid.
A couple of stat suggestions based on real life averages, while I'm barbequing sacred cows
Since I'm an American, I always play a chunky character, since we're on average heavier than everyone else. The other people in my group who are from countries where people on average are not so big always have to wait for me at the top of the stairs.
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*nods*
And don't forget, the majority of the female character art has been Seoni because she was released first. Kyra and Merisiel came later. How many months was it before they were revealed? That's a lot of time freelance artists for Pathfinder and Game Mastery don't have them to make action shots of. Heck, J3 - Crucible of Chaos, the first Module to use the new Iconics, didn't even feature art with them, it was still using the original four.
Seelah our paladin has been around far less then the original 3 and until Crimson Throne, didn't require any art ordered with these Iconics.
The Beta doesn't come out for awhile and the final version doesn't come out for another year, there will be plenty of time to balance out the art to get all 11 (of 12) Iconics in the action shots. :)
I love the artwork. But then it looks like most of the Eberron artwork and I love Eberron. I still think the characters should look "sexy" but not "slutty". That includes the dudes too. No greased up Conan the Barbarian looking dudes. :-p
A couple of stat suggestions based on real life averages, while I'm barbequing sacred cows
Mooo??
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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Conversely, I'm fine with a world where males don't have twice the upper body strength of females, as in our world, where the sexes are built the same and this is reflected in the art. What I'm not fine with is 105 lb hotties in mail bikinis with 20 STR and no explanation.
How are you with halflings?
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I agree 100% that Pathfinder should be inclusive (and representative) of all of Golarion's cultures and genders. However, I don't know that comics/cartoons would add a whole lot to the book. I agree that it would be good for the book to put a greater emphasis on the different ways to role (or roll) play, but I don't know if drastic changes in art direction are the answer I would pursue.
Frankly, I like the almost classic feel that the 3.x books have in comparison to the older editions (and what I've seen of 4.0), but that's just my personal taste. Line art would be great too, and I enjoyed the 'pencil sketch' feel that some sections of official core has now, but I also really enjoy the art in the current alpha. I'd love to have more new art, but I realize we're at an early phase right now in the project. I'm also hoping for diagrams on combat maneuvers and other sections that would need it, especially where there are rule changes.
I know we're ..
Agreed with all except cartoons. Don't want cartoons in a rulebook. If I want to "read" cartoons, I reed a comic book. Cartoons do not help visualize people nor do they help you with rules.
Sacred cows and dead horses. Why am I not surprised?
Seriously, 50% is a very lame idea, as long as there is a diversity of characters represented. Paizo has a lot of that diversity thought out, and I trust them to do a cool game that shows us what some possible options are. However, iconics leave me less than lukewarm as a concept. I'd much prefer more and more different characters. I mean... seriously, how many of you people have felt that Regdar or Mialee were interesting characters after being hideously overused throughout two editions of D&D? With the possible exception of the story suggested by the illustrations of Dungeonscape, there is no interaction, no sense of identity, no quality writing attached to them.
I hope Paizo doesn't focus so much on iconics that they too make an eleven (thirteen?)-character universe.
Well for my two cents, I find the whole diversity PC gobbledygook a drag.
Recognising the unbalanced state of affairs in the world, leads me to prefer a game where there is no gender bias.
I would recommend that you read this and this.
One of the reasons I puchase Paizo products is because I perceive that they have a reasonable attitude to gender balance.
Something of a threadjack, and I've no wish to indulge in debate here. But, being male, white and middle-class it's important that I stand up and say "I don't agree with you".
Well for my two cents, I find the whole diversity PC gobbledygook a drag. There were no female knights for a reason (No Joan of Arc was not a knight, she was a General/Holy Symbol/Leader, not a fighter). When I think of a knight, I don't just not think of women, I think "wtf? That's not a knight" when I am shown a woman in a knight's gear.
An almost entirely social construct, based on the fact that europe having been patriacle.
Woman are capable of forfilling any of the classes in the PRPG, it should be up to Settings to place sociatial restraints on characters, not a mechanics based restriction.
I would love to see setting have the Balls to say, 'In this sociaty, you just don't get female palidins.' Or 'In neverwhere, wizards are exclusively female.' and give genuine, socitial reasons for these restrictions.
Sacred cows and dead horses. Why am I not surprised?
Dead horse has been here?
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I agree with my undead neighbour. It's a fantasy game after all where it should be possible to escape the gender stereotypes that you come across in real world. Is it already that far that we have to include clichés like the "women can't drive and men can't do two things at once"-thing into roleplaying? It's a fact that there were no female knights in the european middle-ages, but D&D never claimed to recreate the society of these times in the game. It's inspired by it, but it's not a historical RPG at all, it's fantasy. I like it that there are no differences in the stats between female and male characters. If somebody likes to include gender stereotypes in their games it's perfectly fine if everyone in the group is okay with it.
But I wouldn't want to see stuff like that in the rules. These clichés are often a burden in the real world to men and women as well and I don't like this to enter into the joy of gaming. Sure, it might not be realistic, but what is realistic in the game at all (no, I don't want to start a discussion on this as it leads nowhere, just consider it a side note to make my point clear)?
Dual stats for male and female versions of the core-races would make the game unneccessary more complicated as well.
To get back to the original topic: I second everything Dungeon Grrrl said, except for the cartoons. I wouldn't want to see cartoons in the rulebooks at all. I'd like to have a cartoon page in the PF-issues, but that's a different topic. I wasn't a fan of the cartoons in previous edition rule books and I can't imagine it for the PFRPG at all. Cartoons are too subject to individual tastes. What one might find funny seems silly to someone else. Okay, this could be said about artwork in general, but I think cartoons are a special issue.
Yeah, not to get to political or anything, but I wanna see some cartoons. They really "humanize" a gameboook.
The first DMG was the the best gamebook ever, hands down, and it has cartoons in it.There are worse books you could emulate.
Besides, I'm sure the guy who drew "Downer" and the Harrow Deck wouldn't mind contributing a little something.
So macht schnell with the cartoons!
Something a little more on topic occured to me.
While, i love the iconics, especially the P-girls(Seoni, Kyra, Merisiel), i think that they must never be the only adventures depicted.
I'd like to see somewhere between 20%-40% of the art work be image of other character.
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Well for my two cents, I find the whole diversity PC gobbledygook a drag. There were no female knights for a reason
And you seem to think that reason is physical build... I would disagree.
Women on average have higher "charisma" (i.e., social skills) than men.
If you're going to reject some perceived Sacred Cows, please try not to insert new ones...
If we're talking about our art wish lists, the only big item on mine is to see adventures, not just adventurers. While I don't mind seeing the iconics posing once in a while -- especially during the race and class chapters -- I'd prefer the focus to be on showing off an adventure. The cover of the Alpha release is very good in this regard, where we're seeing a slice of what a Pathfinder adventure would be like. Showing characters in weird and/or dangerous situations adds a dimension to the game. Instead of showing players the iconics and saying, "You can be one of these guys," I'd rather show them something like the old Paladin in Hell piece in the AD&D books and say, "You can do this stuff."
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I loved the art from the old books and I have really loved the way the art looks in the pathfinder series to date. It gives a unique vision of the world and what we have seen of it. The art then the writing is what pulled me in and kept me coming back for more.
I also agree with DG, as seems to be a common theme with me lately. We need a good spread of iconics male and female just keep up what you have been doing and we should be fine...
Also a comic or two back in the books would rock as well.
We will be using the 11 "iconics" as the class illustrations, and they will appear throughout the book just as they do in all of our RPG products.
So, are there to only be 11 iconics, and not 12?
Personally, I like the idea of Paizo adding a hybrid caster/fighter class, and it possibly being represented by Eando Kline as the 12th iconic. Just saying.
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Although I can understand a decision to exclude cartoons in the RPG, I have to admit that a couple funny & iconic ones (such as Belkar suffering Weapon Shrinkage in Order of the Stick #1) would be priceless and would help to establish the identity of the game.
Something that truly hearkens back to D&D's earlier days would be great.
I feel the need to stand up and say "you will not defame me with irrational PC hokum."
I am not defaming you.
To reiterate: I don't agree with you.
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I think a cartoon could rock and sell books.
Particularly, if the cartoon were an Order of the Stick special edition that showed the OotS playtesting Pathfinder.
Gary
Wow. that sounds like a nerd wet dream of a crossover.
Has Paizo talked to Rich at all, about anything? If he happens to like Pathfinder, he might be a good person to plug it once or twice.
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I'd like to repeat how pleasantly surprised I am to not have been pilloried by the community here. That was my first post and I jumped RIGHT into a hotbutton issue (nay, I dragged it in myself) and there were no condemnations, or cries of "troll!" The latter would even have been justified, since I registered then proceeded to make that my first post. Kudos, I'm impressed.
It's nice that you mention this. I think the community on these boards is just great. With only very few exceptions (compared to the total number of posts made here each day) I never witness things like those you were afraid of. I'll never go anywhere else again to discuss things about our hobby. Even "hotbutton issues" are normally discussed in a nice and mature manner and flaming is really rare around here (and mostly deserved).
I guess I can take the liberty to say: Welcome on board. :)
Sacred cows and dead horses. Why am I not surprised?Dead horse has been here?
You called?
<AC:12, prone>
JLH3:
I have to disagree.
We have historicial and archilogicial evidence for females performing a variaty of warrior roles in the ancient world, this continues through into medievil and even modern warfare.
There is even some evidence for the bastard sword being considered a womans weapon.
While there is some degree of truth that on average a man will be better suited to the roles of warrior or knight, many woman are capiable of performing them. This difference will on most tables be reflected by character choices and steriotypes.
If this where a low fantasy game, which was really trying to accurately portray a world just like our own, with only a few minor difference, then perhapes, just perhapes, your arguement for mechanical differences between genders would hold true. But its not, its a high(if slightly dark in the case of Golarion) fantasy world, i mean they have 'profession adventures' the most patiantly obserd concept in fantasy litriture. For all we know, there is no gender difference in potential at all in Golarion, merely a slight bias.
Since PRPG is ment to be usable to run any setting in the D'n'D multiverse, there are certainly realms where woman have a greater potential then men, or that there is so little difference between genders that there is not even a cultural gender bias.
All that said, I would much rather see a variaty of shapes and sizes and appearance between the female(and for that matter males) shown in the art. And if a character is wearing armour...please make it servicable.
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Returning to the question again: I think that a style like Anima Rpg goes more nowdaways
I wouldn't buy it. As much as I support and love Paizo, if they went with Anima/manga whatever I would walk away from them forever.
Every thing is turning into Anima-crap anymore.I don't want doe-eyed 12 year olds weilding 300lb swords in D&D. Leave that crap to Exalted. If I use a picture from Sailor Moon as my D&D character then something dreadfully awful has happened to D&D, something I will never pay for.
Seconded a million times over.Returning to the question again: I think that a style like Anima Rpg goes more nowdawaysI wouldn't buy it. As much as I support and love Paizo, if they went with Anima/manga whatever I would walk away from them forever.
Every thing is turning into Anima-crap anymore.
I don't want doe-eyed 12 year olds weilding 300lb swords in D&D. Leave that crap to Exalted. If I use a picture from Sailor Moon as my D&D character then something dreadfully awful has happened to D&D, something I will never pay for.
And a trillion times over.