RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Ok, saw this in another tread and it got me thinking about character generation.
Our group normally use the 4d6 drop the lowest, reroll ones. With my RotRL game, I went for a 28 point buy and they balked if I'd done a 25 point buy I'd have a revolt on my hands.
28 points can give 15,14,13,12,11,10 pretty good stats to me. My players though, end up taking the higher casting stats, and letting everything else suffer. For example, our cleric is 16, 14, 14, 10, 10, 10. then grumbles he's not effective in combat wth a 10 str, dex, and con.
So how do others handle weaning players down to point buy?
I don't reaaly. I tried for my latest game to do a point buy and even at 32 points people didn't want to do it. Basically when making a character rolling the stats is half the fun for them, so I decided why take that fun away from them to use a more balanced point buy system. IT may not be for everyone, but if your players really like to roll they why not let them.
Hmmm....I just posted and suffered technically difficulties....that hasn't happened before. Not a good way to start the new year. Lets try this again..
I have to agree with Chris that part of character creation is rolling the dice, so unless you have a particular reason why, I'm wondering why the point cost system. My initial post gave a lot more information but in reflection, I'm not sure if it was something that would have been helpful.
Can you tell us what kind of difficulties your running into or why you want to use an point system...it might help with posting a solution to the problem?
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I *begged* for point buy, and would use it instead of rolling whenever I was allowed to do so.
My luck with dice is so execrable, we had to create a 'mulligan' rule, just for me. If my character didn't have *any* stat over 9, and thus wasn't eligible for any class (back in 2e, IIRC), I got to roll again.
A few experiences with mismatched characters (one dude rolled really well, another rolled really crappy) should easily convince one of those two that a standard number for everyone is the way to go, to avoid making the game less fun for the dude who rolled bad. It also guarantees that a player will be able to play the character he wants to play, and not something random. (Back in the day, some DMs would play 'by the book' and make you roll your stats in order. Want to play the magic-user? Too bad your highest stat is that Strength 13 and your Intelligence is too low to cast 1st level spells...)
You could twist things by allow higher stats but crafting your game so that going in guns blazing is usually a bad idea. Rewarding thought and planning and discouraging min-maxing. More of a Cthulhu philosophy, if you know that game at all. In that game, fighting is usually a bad idea. You know from the start that you will be facing forces much more powerful than you, and you have to work together to gather information and form a plan.
I hate point buy! Kill! Kill! Kill!
...actually, it isn't that bad. Still, you should be able to get higher/lower stats. I will always prefer rolling and dropping the lowest.
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My luck with dice is so execrable
Mine too when it comes to character creation. As a player, I prefer point buy so my stats don't all suck. But, I'm so rarely a player.
So, as a DM, the stat generation method depends on the group. For a group that I trust I've utilized a number of methods, just to play with things. But 4d6 drop lowest is the norm.
For new groups, that I don't quite know yet, I always go point buy. Why? A few years back (I was actually running a 3.5e necroworld game 0.0 ) a new group wanted me to DM for them. I agreed, told them to roll up some characters and we'd get started on the set day. I get there and what do you know, miracle of miracles....
All 5 players had rolled all 18's for their stats. Even attested for eacother, "It was crazy! We've never seen anything like it!" So,I ran a killer session (Crucible of Freya can be MEAN), TPK'd them and told them to use a standard point buy this go around.
It has been point buy ever since with folks I don't know yet.
I *begged* for point buy, and would use it instead of rolling whenever I was allowed to do so.
My luck with dice is so execrable, we had to create a 'mulligan' rule, just for me. If my character didn't have *any* stat over 9, and thus wasn't eligible for any class (back in 2e, IIRC), I got to roll again.
A few experiences with mismatched characters (one dude rolled really well, another rolled really crappy) should easily convince one of those two that a standard number for everyone is the way to go, to avoid making the game less fun for the dude who rolled bad. It also guarantees that a player will be able to play the character he wants to play, and not something random. (Back in the day, some DMs would play 'by the book' and make you roll your stats in order. Want to play the magic-user? Too bad your highest stat is that Strength 13 and your Intelligence is too low to cast 1st level spells...)
I ran a group once where everyone had fairly normal rolls (~28 points if the scores were bought), except the barbarian, whose LOWEST score was a 10 Chr. After the racial penalty. If I recall, his scores were something like 18-16-16-15-14-12. I ended up letting two other characters re-roll stats just so they wouldn't feel completely outclassed. Point buy is less exciting, but at least its fair.
DangerDwarf said:
For new groups, that I don't quite know yet, I always go point buy. Why? A few years back (I was actually running a 3.5e necroworld game 0.0 ) a new group wanted me to DM for them. I agreed, told them to roll up some characters and we'd get started on the set day. I get there and what do you know, miracle of miracles....
All 5 players had rolled all 18's for their stats. Even attested for eacother, "It was crazy! We've never seen anything like it!" So,I ran a killer session (Crucible of Freya can be MEAN), TPK'd them and told them to use a standard point buy this go around.
I say:
I have had similar experences. I don't allow PCs to roll outside of the game with the exception of 1 old friend and my regular group. Anyone else, I act intensly interested and excited while I watch them. It's amazing how some people feel they can't play a character who has anything less than a bonus. I'm afraid 4th edtion is only going to make this thought process worse should D&D ever go back to penalties for characters. Way to go WOTC, all the hard work we DMs have put into teaching players to be happy and roleplay with less then perfect scores. Oh, well, back to the trenches I guess.
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I wouldn't start a game with players rolling wealth on d10000. The campaign-long ramifications of the differences between a good roll and a bad roll are much greater than the differences between starting with 1 GP or starting with 10000 GP. I won't play in or run a game that requires rolling for characteristics.
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Contributor
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As always with such discussions, I recommend a randomized but balanced system, such as the Three Dragon Readings I wrote for Dragon #346. You get all the fun and inspiaration of creating a random character, but all the characters are balanced to each other. There are a few other methods I've heard of that do this, but I'm a sucker for self-promotion.
I won't play in or run a game that requires rolling for characteristics.
While I respect that position, I feel thats a bit severe. As a DM, rolling abilities is out of the question. If I'm running, then its point buy. I would (begrudgingly) roll abilities as a player, all the while warning the DM of the potential mistake (s)he is making.
my freinds and I never play point buy; if we wanted point buy we would play hero game system; we much prefer rolling dice for the variation it offers. The only time I have played point buy has been in the pbp games. I posted some minor statistics in a post one of comparing the data of 100 stat rolls vs point buy cost and really it comes out about the same so the cost of point buys given in the books are pretty good; personally, I want more heroic pcs in my game than a 32 point buy though; a 4d6 reroll 1's take best 3; make two columns roll two sets; take best of two; I think this comes out to about 40 points if I remember correctly; been awhile since I looked at this; was just a task for fun.
I roll dice and have my handy dandy character randomization dice for class, race and alignment. If a character sucks, rerolls are allowed, but sometimes you end up with some interesting combinations.
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Get a deck of regular playing cards.
Pull out four 2's, four 3's, four 4's, four 5's, and two 6's.
Shuffle the cards. Deal the cards into six piles of three cards each.
You can then add 2 points to two seperate stacks. There are your stats.
I typically allow the players to makes three sets of stats and pick the best set for their character.
This system still allows for randomness, is fun for the players, and keeps the outrageous stats out of the game.
This has been discussed many times on these boards, with varying degrees of intensity. Just as an aside, the best way to approach it is with due respect for the "other side," since many people are amazingly emotional about this topic.
That said, I'm for point buy. I'd list my reasons, but it would just drag on and on and on. I like the excitement of rolling, but there are just too many cons relative to its pros for me.
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I hate point buy! Kill! Kill! Kill!
...actually, it isn't that bad. Still, you should be able to get higher/lower stats. I will always prefer rolling and dropping the lowest.
personally, I roll( rerolling ones)... but I do it differently.... I pick my race class, then the first set of rolls is str , 2nd is dex - straight down the line. Then i build a background to fit the stats
"Normally" we use the pick you class, then roll special numbers of dice designed for it method from the Advanced gamemaster Guide. we like a random factor, and *enjoy* having characters at different power levels. (I suspect it's one of the reaosns we're getting nervous about 4e). To us the role-play comes before the Game, and any role can be played, regardless of a character's competence.
In fact some of our best characters have cme from people dealing with characters being much more or less powerful than their allies. While I have never seen an all-18s character ever be rlled by anyne, using any published method (and have seen some math suggesting no one else ever has either, but that's neither here nor there), I *have* seen games with a character with nothing lower than a 16, and a character with nothing higher than a 12. The way those two ineracted was brillaint, and in the end created far more fun than anything the DM could come up with.
We also sometimes allow a very high minimum, so if you add up your rolled points and they are less than 26 or 28, you can then do assigned point-buy, but honestly, not many people bother to check.
I'm in the exact opposite boat. Every 3.5 DM I ever had (save 1, and she sucked) did a point buy. I'd like to do a rolling but frankly I don't care enough to protest. I ran a playtest of the new traveller system with my group and used the dice rolling system and they balked at dice rolling when they found out there was a point buy system and I didn't go that route. (I told them we're not playtest those rules; if it was more then just a playtest, I never would have heard the end of it.) Some people care more about everyone being exactly on the same level playing field (or more precisely, don't want anyone to be "better" then they are) then others.
EDIT: The group described in my above post is a primarily minis-gamer group (not your group Jeff).
Now my other group is about to use the array for an upcoming game and I am excited to give that a try. What I've come up with so far is pretty good.
and a character with nothing higher than a 12.
I never understood why this is a problem with gamers. I mean yea, this is a numberic way of saying that one character is "better" then another, but the characters don't know that. I could have a character with all 8s and a 20 ego and I'd love that character. He'd think that he's the best sword fighter in the group and nothing anyone can say could convince him otherwise. He'd take keen weapon as a feat and use a rapier. And you know what, the rest of the players in the group would make fun of him all the time, but I wouldn't care.
Let me share with you what my group did last time we started a campaign (Savage Tide). It was complex, but we thought that making up our characters was important as we planned/hoped to take them to 20th level. We also wanted to roll dice but still have roughly equal characters in terms of ability scores.
Here is what we did. All four players and the DM rolled up six stats using 4d6 drop lowest. The average ability score bonus for the five sets of rolls was determined, and it was a +6. The stats were then dumped together in a pool for "drafting." Each player got to pick a stat, then the next player picked a stat, etc. It was a snake draft, so the player picking fourth also picked fifth, the player picking first picked eighth and then ninth, etc. In choosing your stats, you had a hard cap of +6, meaning that when your character was done, you couldn't have ability bonuses totaling more than +6. Note that the DM rolled up a set of stats giving us six extra "rolls" beyond the minimum needed to outfit our four characters, which was a lifesaver at the end of the draft.
Why I liked this system
1. It allowed us to roll dice in making up characters which is fun.
2. The rolling experience was truly cooperative. We each wanted the other players to roll high because high rolls meant a higher average and thus a higher cap for us all. No jealousy at the luckiest roller but high fives instead!
3. The draft itself was a lot of fun and took some thought. Do you grab that 17 sitting out there? Probably but that eats up half of your cap! Maybe you grab that sole 7 out there because you are playing a dwarven fighter and a 7 looks fine for your Charisma and gives you -2 to your cap, thus allowing you to boost your other stats even more. Odd numbers became very appealing in this system, as opposed to point buy where even numbers predominate.
4. There was a fair balance between the stats of all the characters, but we didn't have to resort to the point buy or the standard array.
5. The ability scores were hand-crafted. In other words, if we did the draft again, the numbers would be slightly different. Would the average be +7 this time or +5? Maybe someone would roll an 18 this time? Maybe there would only be one 14 by chance? It gives each campaign start its own flavor.
Why it might not be for everyone
1. It takes time to do this. We devoted a whole four hour session to character generation. If you want to roll up characters quickly, this is not for you.
2. Some people like the arbitrariness of random dice rolls. Not everyone is born equal in the real world, so why should perfect equality be in DND? (This makes sense in theory and there is some fun to be had in playing a low ability character, but this wasn't what we wanted to do in this campaign.)
Marnak
Point buy vs Rolling - Well, we've almost always rolled, and sadly, there always seems to be one person who magically has nothing lower than a 13 - even when you try to watch - 5 people rolling at once is hard to supervise. You can't have everyone do it one at a time, character creation can take long enough as is! So, point buying is a pretty good fix to that. Everyone ends up with a couple "heroic scores" and a couple "average scores". Added in possible racial bonuses and the point per 4 level increase, any character has a chance to improve somewhere and it helps keep the characters a little more unique from one another. It also helps people create the character they want to have, because there's less randomness in it. Honestly, let's say you roll 9, 10, 11, 11, 11, 17. You want to play a nimble, charismatic swashbuckler. You're stuck with either an average dex or average cha. With the point buy, you can focus on those two scores you really want, and take the rest as they come. It's not for everyone, but it works for me.
Marnak: I am SO doing that next time I start up a campaign.
Ross Byers: Cool. Glad you liked the idea. It is the way our party will go from here on out I think.
Marnak
For anyone who might care, I've started an interesting idea with my group, which serves the DM/Player concern of balance betwixt party members and the desire (at least among my players) to let the dice help determine the character.
Everyone rolls their set of 6 x 4d6-lowest. Four players = 4 sets, 24 numbers in total. Those 24 numbers then become a pool. Players then roll initiative with a straight d20 roll. Through the init order, players take turns picking stats out of the pool. While its true that it usually is just a simple "take highest score, pass it down" sometimes it becomes more complex as the players talk about it, with some "giving" up a higher score to another if they already have one and the other could make use of it.
The end result is that everyone is usually within approximately 2-3 total points of each other, even if the separate sets might have equaled 33,29,19,45 (had this happen last time). Played as the were rolled, those four stats would have left one person dominating, and one very much below par, with the other two being strong but balanced, but not relative to the two extremes.
I also like that this "forces" players to make their characters together, and consider the other players in the process of character creation. It has helped tighten party cohesion, I'ved noticed.
Just what I've been doing, feel free to grab it if you like.
I think point buy (either 25 or 28 point) is a great thing. It helps keep everyone on equal footing. if you roll, then someone gets "good" scores and someone gets "bad" scores, and as DM you find yourself between a rock and a hard place: a good challenge for the weak player is too easy for the strong player, and a good challenge for the strong player is too hard for the weak player - either way, someone is unhappy.
The other possibility is that players roll, but then re-roll if dissatisfied. The end result is a party with almost all 18's. If you want to play a "super hero" style game, then maybe that works for you. From my experience, it's better to start players off weak. Then the increase in power as they advance is more obvious, and thus more appreciated.
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In my latest game I let everybody roll six scores (4d6 remove lowest) and let the players pick one set of scores for all characters. This lets players roll dice, but keeps things fairly equal. It also prevents rolling at home.
Unfortunately one set of rolls was pretty superhuman - next time I might go for 3d6 rolls and let them pick (it is best of five, after all).
As a DM, I prefer point-buy because it's easier to judge the power level of both the group and each PC in relation to the rest of the party. As a player, I prefer point-buy because it's easier to build a character to suit a specific concept and I'm protected against crappy rolls. However, the preference is slight.
The biggest potential problem with rolling is the chance of a wide variation between PCs. As long as there is a method to prevent this (either the pool methods mentioned above, setting a specific range for total ability bonuses, etc.) rolling can be the most exciting ("fun") part of character creation for some players.
When I DM, I usually offer the players a choice between either one of the point-buys or the "organic" method in the DMG. The party votes and whichever method gets the majority is the method used.
I never did point buy with D&D3. The players seem to get cranky whenever they get a 12 so there isn't any pleasing them without going into supergod mode anyway.
Player: Aw, man. I rolled a 12!
Me: (looks over their shoulder) um, thats still a +1, dude. And it's your lowest stat!
Player: (whiney) I know, but I wanted another 16.
Me: Oh, get over it you fraggin' wuss. Sheesh!
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I never did point buy with D&D3. The players seem to get cranky whenever they get a 12 so there isn't any pleasing them without going into supergod mode anyway.
Player: Aw, man. I rolled a 12!
Me: (looks over their shoulder) um, thats still a +1, dude. And it's your lowest stat!
Player: (whiney) I know, but I wanted another 16.
Me: Oh, get over it you fraggin' wuss. Sheesh!
That's me.
Me: Does anyone have ranks in X.
Player 1: No, see I wanted to play this character with all these skills, but somebody wanted to do point buy...
We're playtesting the spellstalker, so point buy is more important for balance issues, but even with that... He's playing a human with a 15 or 16 int. so that's 9 or 10 skill points/level. *sigh*
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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My favorite aspect of rolling characters is that you don't always know what you're going to get. I like that, because it pushes me to figure out things about my character. (For the same reason, I really like the character design system using the Three-Dragon Ante cards.)
I understand that other people don't like rolling stats, for exactly the opposite reason, and I'm cool with that.
I liked an idea from the 1st Edition Unearthed Arcana, which sounds like something Dungeon Grrrl mentioned above. But I wanted something a little more open.
When I DM, you don't assign points to stats, you assign dice. You start with 27 dice, which you assign the the attributes. Let's say a player was thinking of playing a rogue or a swashbuckler. Then she could assign the dice:
STR: 4d6
DEX: 7d6
CON: 4d6
INT: 5d6
WIS: 3d6
CHA: 4d6
Roll, take the best three dice, no swapping. Each additional roll of "6" past the first three is considered a "+1". So, if that player were to roll an intelligence of that would be considered a 19.
One time I almost played a half orc fighter just to get a rise out of our DM. I wouldn't put any points into INT so he'd have a 6 INT (-2). Well the rules say you get a minimum of 1 skill point per level, no matter what. And ooooooh yea, I'd play him like he had a 6 INT too. *Evil Laughter*
When I DM, you don't assign points to stats, you assign dice. You start with 27 dice, which you assign the the attributes. Let's say a player was thinking of playing a rogue or a swashbuckler. Then she could assign the dice:
STR: 4d6
DEX: 7d6
CON: 4d6
INT: 5d6
WIS: 3d6
CHA: 4d6Roll, take the best three dice, no swapping. Each additional roll of "6" past the first three is considered a "+1". So, if that player were to roll an intelligence of that would be considered a 19.
Problem I see with this, I know people that would play a wizard and assign dice like this:
STR 1d6
DEX 5d6
CON 5d6
INT 14d6
WIS 1d6
CHA 1d6
(no I'm not one of them)
The other possibility is that players roll, but then re-roll if dissatisfied. The end result is a party with almost all 18's. If you want to play a "super hero" style game, then maybe that works for you. From my experience, it's better to start players off weak. Then the increase in power as they advance is more obvious, and thus more appreciated.
Yes, in my experience everyone loves rolling so long as re-rolls are allowed. That way they're protected from the downsides of rolling and can aspire more easily to being above what point-buy would allow. My thinking when I see this is, "Why not skip a step and institute a point buy, since you're basically letting people roll until they get the stats they want anyway? Either that, or just let people pick what numbers they want for each stat."
Also, Marnak, I know some people who I think would love that system you created. It will probably be years before I get to play with them again, but I saved a copy and will endeavor to remember to try it with them when I get the chance.
One time I almost played a half orc fighter just to get a rise out of our DM. I wouldn't put any points into INT so he'd have a 6 INT (-2). Well the rules say you get a minimum of 1 skill point per level, no matter what. And ooooooh yea, I'd play him like he had a 6 INT too. *Evil Laughter*
The first time I made a point buy character (it was kind of a one-off session), I did make a half-orc. Not only did I put no points in Int, the DM actually allowed me to trade down points to put in other areas. This brainiac had 4 Int. 4 freaking Intelligence.
First off, I did this because everyone always got on me for never playing anything but mages (specifically wizards). So, I assigned my half-orc the trait of thinking he was a wizard. Even bought a spell component pouch. He would smack things with his greatsword and say "Magic!" If anyone argued, he'd point to the sword and ask, "You want magic too?"
Secondly, he thought everyone of the same race was related to him. Meaning that when another player decided to go for a half-orc cleric, my half-orc's first words to him were "Brother!" He protested. I didn't care.
That was a short-lived game (like I said, it was kind of a one-off). I did play another half-orc barbarian, who had 7 Int, named Baghtru (after the FR deity). In that longer-running game, he achieved some legendary status in my high school group for his idiotic antics.
Playing stupid characters can be fun.
The first time I made a point buy character (it was kind of a one-off session), I did make a half-orc. Not only did I put no points in Int, the DM actually allowed me to trade down points to put in other areas. This braniace had 4 Int. 4 freaking Intelligence.
First off, I did this because everyone always got on my for never playing anything but mages (specifically wizards). So, I assigned my half-orc the trait of thinking he was a wizard. Even bought a spell component pouch. He would smack things with his greatsword and say "Magic!" If anyone argued, he'd point to the sword and ask, "You want magic too?"
Secondly, he thought everyone of the same race was related to him. Meaning that when another player decided to go for a half-orc cleric, my half-orc's first words to him were "Brother!" He protested. I didn't care.
*ROTFLMFAO* OMG! If only I could talk my DM into playing this character!
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Problem I see with this, I know people that would play a wizard and assign dice like this:STR 1d6
DEX 5d6
CON 5d6
INT 14d6
WIS 1d6
CHA 1d6
(laugh) Wow. A character with three stats hovering around 3 or 4. Wow.
Well, I didn't say that a player needed to apportion at least three dice to each stat, 'cause I figured that went without saying. But, no, the most dedicated character would be:
STR 3d6
DEX 3d6
CON 3d6
INT 12d6
WIS 3d6
CHA 3d6
Crunch math stuff:
Now, you'd expect "12d6" will roll a median of 17 (two "1"s, two "2"'s, and so on.) The average is a little less (because it's a lot easier to roll way lower than 17 than way higher).
Running 50 simulations of 600 rolls each on Excel, I find an average of about 16.75, with a standard deviation of around 1.64. In each run of 600 characters, there were two or three with a score of 21 or 22. In all 30,000 characters, there was one roll of 25.
In exchange for commoner stats for the rest of the character, an average of 16.75 (with a 1-in-30,000 chance for a score of 25) in a chosen attribute seems reasonable.
"You want magic too!?" just became my new catchprase.
Saern: Thanks for the comment, and I hope you and your friends get to play together again soon.
GeraintElberion: I like your simple system. If I was in a campaign where we needed to create characters fast, I think I would use your method.
Marnak
and then you hit stat draining monsters...Problem I see with this, I know people that would play a wizard and assign dice like this:
STR 1d6
DEX 5d6
CON 5d6
INT 14d6
WIS 1d6
CHA 1d6(no I'm not one of them)
Yup, if anyone would make a character like that, the silk gloves would come right off...and if this poor player would roll 1 for, say, strength, lifting that spellbook would be a problem and even supporting his own weight would not be easy. Or wisdom...ah, if that character would reach level 2 I would consider myself a failure.
The part with 3d6 as minimum sounds rather fun method, I have to do some test runs with that.
Regarding other comments, in other systems we have occasionally played in the way that the characters are of different power levels. It gives interesting flavor to group dynamics (I have played the Higher-Level Guy, the Runt and the Middle Guy With Surprising Tricks In His Sleeve, all great fun). Depends on a gaming style, and arguably D&D does not support this sort of dynamics as well as, say, WoD games.
I only use point buy. Usually 32 points, but I've been known to use 35, and I heard of games with 40 points. I also use fixed HP instead of rolling the dice
I can't help you convince your players - never had the problem, as my players either agree or don't care enough to say something.
In fact, our first 3e game used dice rolling (4d6, drop lowest, 7 times, drop lowest, increase one stat by one point) and one guy promptly got two 18s (18 and 17 and increased the 17 with the free raise). He played a druid with wis and con 18 and had a lot more HP than my bladesinger, which was the primary frontliner.
When we were about to start our second campaig (Stargate using d20 Modern) I begged the DM to switch to point buy, since it's fairer and all, and bad rolls are fun for no one. He refused, we used the old method - and I got the 18 and 17. A soldier with dex and con 18 is a nasty thing (strong/soldier/one level of tough to get energy resistance)
The next campaign we played for some reason used point buy :).
I like how people can create their characters all on their own, I don't have to sit there watch them roll the dice, be frustrated about the results, and let them reroll. I saw several characters and character concepts (when someone wanted to play a certain class or concept) messed up by lousy ability scores and HD (a 3rd-level fighter with 13 hp is a real pain) so I prefer point buy. Tinkering with the stats can be as much fun as rolling the dice.
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I usually go for the standard 4d6 dice rolls, but a player has to roll for all the abilities before discarding one stat block. Barring catastrophic bad luck, after 6 complete stat blocks, the player has to choose between the results he obtained.
I also recently introduced the Three Dragon Ante card reading with 28 points ability buying system (from Dragon Magazine #346, IIRC), and that method has been received with some success, mostly from the two rookies female players.
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Owner - Johnny Scott Comics and Games
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While I see the value in a point buy system, the players in my group prefer rolling up stats. My group wants a chance at high ability scores for more than one ability, which they may not get in a point buy system.
Here are the systems we use. 2 of use rotate as DMs, so I'll list both systems that we use around our table:
If I'm a player, we use the standard 4d6, drop the lowest die. If you don't like your stats, you get a chance to reroll ALL of your stats, then you can select which set you use.
If I DM, I let the players use 5d6, drop the lowest 2. No rerolls, and if you don't roll an 18, you can drop a stat to give yourself one. This may sound generous, but my group likes to have high scores, and I'm OK with that. I just soup up the encounters a bit to compensate.
Historically, I've always rolled up characters. The suspense over what you get is a bonus!
In fact, one of my favorite things to do when I'm bored is to just rollup stat blocks and try to determine which race/class they would be. When I DM, I use those stat blocks to create NPCs. I think this is a bit more fun than simply using point buy, or assigning stats to an NPC.
Now I thought of two DMs I know who were at some point running the World's Largest Dungeon adventure...
One of them is an old school DM who insisted on 3d6 (I think he allowed free distribution, though I have played in on campaign of his which was 3d6-distributed as rolled), another had a group of "5d6, drop two lowest" characters...unsurprisingly one campaign was generally world of hurt for the characters, the other one was a cakewalk...
That said, I am occasionally tempted by running 3d6-statted characters to change the focus of the game...and tune those experience tables too, so that getting to higher levels is harder. Tough love, baby.
Of course then running any prepublished adventures would need loads of retuning...
One method my old group tried a few times was to combine point buy with rolling.
1) Use a 25 point buy and generate your stats as normal.
2) Roll 3d6 against each stat in order
3) Take the higher of the two values either the point buy or the roll.
This is a couple of things.
First, it made some more organic characters. Every wizard was no longer a weakling, you got a fighter that had a high wisdom, etc.
You also keep the control of making the basic character you want by using the point buy.
Now my players broke down into two basic groups using this system.
Some would by one or two high stats and leave the rest at 8 and hope for a couple of good rolls. The rest would ignore the roll, buy their stats as normal and then treat the rolls as extras.
This method certainly made for some interesting characters.
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When I start Tyrra up, I plan on allowing the following.
- 28 or 30 Point point-buy
- Elite Array
- 4d6, take best 3, drop 1s; assigned as prefered
- All 3s
I hate forcing players to take rolls on stats that they don't want. Like the player who wants a Half-Orc Barbarian, but ends up with the rolls 10 10 10 17 16 18.
However, if the player does take the 4d6 and ends up with 12 10 11 11 12 10, hell, those are above the average. Those are your rolls. If he wanted some excellent stats, he should've taken the Point Buy or Elite Array.
I recommend a randomized but balanced system, such as the Three Dragon Readings I wrote for Dragon #346.
This is a really good article. If you haven't checked it out yet, I would highly recommend it. It could very well be just what your group is looking for. (I am slightly disappointed in the lack of interpretation guidelines for what the cards might mean for your character - and what they suggest for your race and/or class... But that was likely due to length/time constraints. EDIT:: To be clear, there are very rudimentary guidelines, I would like to have seen more.) I recently demonstrated this method to my group, and we had very similar reactions.
We don't like this method.
It has nothing to do with quality. If it was, I wouldn't recommend it so strongly. We were all pretty much "meh" about the "flat," or lack-luster, stats that are generated. They aren't bad stats... the 25 point method usually generates about a 12 average with a couple of 14's for top scores. (I am certain that statistically there is a chance to get "great" scores... But they seem very rare - as they should be.)
With all the scores being so close together, you could really just say every one gets 12's in all their stats, or 14's, or 18's, and get a similar level of variety.
As a player, I would list my preferance as such:
Roll - 4d6 drop lowest, arrange as you please
Roll - 3d6 arrange as you please
Roll - 4d6 drop lowest, straight down
Roll - 3d6 straight down
Elite Array
Point Buy, any amount
Randomized Point Buy, which includes the fantastic system posted by Rithralas above
But that is because I enjoy more variety in my characters. "Standard" is pretty boring.