That is to say they have not shown me anything yet. This is when I want to know how easily I'll be able to convert my books. I want to know if OGL will still exist in this new edition. I would like to know where my current and future article proposals for Dragon stand now.
They posted submission guidelines.
Can't see them now though.
I liked that they did that until yesterday. Now doing it so shortly before announcing 4th edition makes them seem like jerks to me. It would seem that they had no intention of accepting most of the articles do to lack of time before the new edition.
I found this through the Star Wars: Saga site
http://theminiaturespage.com/news/519193/
not sure what "the minatures page" is. Anyone have any intel on them? Is this even a credible listing?
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/dx20010401a
At least we knew that one was an April Fools gag
They're definitely pushing the Digital Initiative/4th Edition thing. Have a look at the end of Randy Buehler's last blog:
http://www.gleemax.com/articles/announcement012.html
If that doesn't say "4th Edition D&D played online", I don't know what does!
Soooo, after the Dragon thing and now this, are they taking any flak at GenCon? Picketers, cold shoulders, tomatoes (note I am not suggesting anyone through fruit [or any other object, living, dead, or unliving] at wizards employees; thanks)?
I'm all for PbP, but pushing the online thing hard.....eh. If I wanted to sit in front of my PC for hours, I'd go back to MMORPG's.
This line: and a digital game table that lets you play 24/7 on the internet disturbs me a bit as well. I get the distinctive feeling it will be on a subscription model, though I could be wrong.
Depending on how Wizards goes with this I may be interested. My interest depends on it being at least 3.5 convertable, not needing an internet connection (I have players that don't use the net that much), and of course being good.
If the thing is completely stupid, I doubt many of us will be playing it for that long.
From the press release, it appears that Fourth Edition represents an essential simplification of Third Edition...much the same way as Third Edition was simplified from Second Edition. I wasn't happy with it back then, but I've grown to appreciate Third Edition's accessability, even if I don't always agree with the way Wizards has handled some things (like Prestige Classes).
But what really worries me is at what price this increased accessability comes at. We are seeing a trend here that has been emergent in Video Games for some time already: that games are being made increasingly not for the fan but for the average, untapped consumer, and to that end made as simple and easy as possible, relying not on innovation and originality but on remaining faithful to tried-and-true moneymaking formulas that draw the masses in at the cost of depth and quality.
These days in Video Games, one can hardly expect to see a Vagrant Story or a Xenogears; what is released by the studios is far less likely to be something new, original, and challenging than it is to be a rehash of something they already know can sell. Once upon a time, Video Games were judged by their story as much as they ever were by their graphics, but that's a trend that is changing. Were Xenogears to come out again today, it would be lambasted by the press and by many gamers for its lack of graphics and voice acting, whereas the story would go largely unnoticed.
Likewise, in the best years of Second Edition, TSR may not have been the biggest moneymaker, but I got the sense when reading their books that the people who wrote them were not writing just to drain the cow of a little more milk, but because they actually loved the game. Accordingly, D&D was a much smaller and less profitable enterprise. I get that same sense here at Paizo, that the good people working here are actually willing to make monetary sacrifices to ensure that they are putting out a better product, one that may defy expectations or challenge people. What Wizards has done is try to bring it into the mainstream, and I fear that it is those of us who truly love the game who shall pay the price.
This line: and a digital game table that lets you play 24/7 on the internet disturbs me a bit as well. I get the distinctive feeling it will be on a subscription model, though I could be wrong.
Well, Fantasy Grounds already offers that - for a low, one-time-only purchase cost.
I have it on good authority that in honor of "4venture" and of it being 4th edition, the game will now be a d4 system, not a d20 system. Apparently young players got fed up with the large spread of potential random results. Also--believe it or not--there will be only 4 abilities, not 6, which gives "dump stats" a whole new meaning.
I'll flip through the books. If it's an improvement, I may pick it up.
But I'm not very hopeful. I can't stand online games, and I don't like random miniatures. It doesn't look like I'm in their target market anymore.
Please, tell me they're dumping charisma.
But I like Charisma...
Insightful Feint!
Improved Feint as a Free Action!
SNEAK ATTACK!
...
*run away*
Disguise!
Act friendly!
SNEAK ATTACK!
...
*run away*
(Wow, this reminds me a lot of Wizards, actually.)
the game will now be a d4 system, not a d20 system.
Anyone who has ever rolled stats for the Dark Sun campaign should have a real loathing for those triangle dice.
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I hear it's going to be made of sunshine and gumdrops and will make all your dreams come true.
Re: reverse compatibility - how'd that work when 3.5 came outn remind me again? Still rocking sword and fist at the table? It is compatible after all.
Speculation on enworld has been that they're announcing the di, but that part of the announcement is that it will be structured to accommodate 4e.
Another random thought is that the transition could be gradual. The rules compendium could easily be 3.75, designed to start bringing people excited about 4e up to speed with the upcoming changes while giving 3.5 adherents a halfway point from which to reach 4e.
It'll be interesting to see what wotc actually says. Somehow I suspect it will be something other than "4e is here, 3.5 is dead, you will be assimilated."
But then again, considering how dragon/dungeon were handled, my confidence may well be misplaced.
I just don't see how much the rules could actually change. I am not saying that 3.5 is perfect, but at most 4e might make some changes here and there to better streamline things . . .I would not expect a major overhaul, in part because the market is still pushing 3.5 products and WoTC is not that foolish.
If, and it is a big if, this 4dventure is about 4e -- I would expect two things.
1) The change will be gradual and patient.
2) The change will be minimal, with few if any mechanics actually overhauled.
Then again I could be wrong and tomorrow we could all be playing D&D and deciding our attacks with a rousing game of rock, paper, scissor.
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From the ENworld thread:
"I was at the press announcement last night (I work for an Indiana newspaper) and they very definitely said that 4e would fall under OGL and they would be releasing a new SRD. They very clearly expressed a desire for third parties to continue to produce D&D compatible material.
A 4e Forgotten Realms will be the first setting book released, and I believe that is scheduled for next August. Chris Perkins was pretty vague when I asked directly what they were going to do with Ravenloft, Dragonlance and Eberron. It seemed like the plan would be to roll out one new setting each year. He even teased me that Greyhawk could be one of those. But I think that was just because I admitted to being an old-school Greyhawk gamer.
For what it's worth, I believe there is going to be a 930 a.m. press release hitting the wire, or so their PR people told me last night. They didn't specifically embargo us but since I saw news on the front page about it with quotes from Bill, I figured I could comment on it."
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I would imagine it will have to be sufficiently different to justify buying the books (though 1E and 2E were virtually the same game, repackaged slightly, to be fair).
You mean like how 3.5 was sufficiently different from 3e?
People will buy 5 versions of the LotR movies with slightly different contents. I'm not sure what the bar is for sufficiently different, but it doesn't seem very high to me.
I just don't see how much the rules could actually change. I am not saying that 3.5 is perfect, but at most 4e might make some changes here and there to better streamline things . . .I would not expect a major overhaul, in part because the market is still pushing 3.5 products and WoTC is not that foolish.
If, and it is a big if, this 4dventure is about 4e -- I would expect two things.
1) The change will be gradual and patient.
2) The change will be minimal, with few if any mechanics actually overhauled.Then again I could be wrong and tomorrow we could all be playing D&D and deciding our attacks with a rousing game of rock, paper, scissor.
According to the press release, 4th edition starts in May with a couple of preview books before that. It says the new edition will cut down prep time with a lot of internet tools. To me it sounds like random dungeons with a format similar to the Minis game.
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From the ENworld thread:
"I was at the press announcement last night (I work for an Indiana newspaper) and they very definitely said that 4e would fall under OGL and they would be releasing a new SRD. They very clearly expressed a desire for third parties to continue to produce D&D compatible material.
A 4e Forgotten Realms will be the first setting book released, and I believe that is scheduled for next August. Chris Perkins was pretty vague when I asked directly what they were going to do with Ravenloft, Dragonlance and Eberron. It seemed like the plan would be to roll out one new setting each year. He even teased me that Greyhawk could be one of those. But I think that was just because I admitted to being an old-school Greyhawk gamer.
For what it's worth, I believe there is going to be a 930 a.m. press release hitting the wire, or so their PR people told me last night. They didn't specifically embargo us but since I saw news on the front page about it with quotes from Bill, I figured I could comment on it."
press announcement Wednesday night? aside from set-up it didn't look like anything was going on until Thursday...
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Yay for the dichotomy:
A: It is 4th edition or it isn't (almost certaily 4th, sorry for you hopefuls)
B: It will be a major rewrite or it won't.
So we are either looking at revised revised 3rd edition
-or-
We are looking at something mostly new
C: it will be good, or it won't
D: We can buy it, or not
E: It will be like the new Saga edition of star wars or not
I, personally, am underwhelmed
No offense to those who have posted, but I don't buy this Press Conference stuff.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Here's the consolidated info regarding the 4e products from EnWorld:
Player's Handbook 4e: May 2008 (Source)
Dungeon Master's Guide 4e: June 2008 (Source)
Monster Manual 4e: July 2008 (Source)
D&D Insider
This is the "D&D Online" section of Gleemax
It contains a "Dungeon Master's Kit" that includes the following:
dungeon builder (map tool)
adventure builder
PC generator
other things (Source)
"Character Generator"
character sheets
character visualizer (Source)
"My Campaign"
"My Character" (Source)
"D&D Game Table" (Source)
"Dungeon & Dragon Magazines" (Source)
Open Gaming Licence
3rd party publishers will be able to get licenses to create 4e material from Wizards. (source)
Fans will be able to publish material on Gleemax under (free) license from Wizards. (This material will be available to Wizards to republish; see discussion on Gleemax TOS).
The OGL/SRD/d20 Licenses will still exist - details still to come (Source)
Then again I could be wrong and tomorrow we could all be playing D&D and deciding our attacks with a rousing game of rock, paper, scissor.
Hey, paper/rock/scissors is the secret to a happy marriage! Been using it over a decade now, lol. Should we see something where people not caught in bear traps cry a lot? Rock, DANGIT! Who's turn is it to change the little guy's diaper? He pooped? Oh God, let her pick paper....
Open Gaming Licence
3rd party publishers will be able to get licenses to create 4e material from Wizards. (source)
Fans will be able to publish material on Gleemax under (free) license from Wizards. (This material will be available to Wizards to republish; see discussion on Gleemax TOS).
The OGL/SRD/d20 Licenses will still exist - details still to come (Source)
Um...what about if we think Gleemax is a turd and what to do the OGL thing wherever we like...?
Here's the consolidated info regarding the 4e products from EnWorld:
Player's Handbook 4e: May 2008 (Source)
Dungeon Master's Guide 4e: June 2008 (Source)
Monster Manual 4e: July 2008 (Source)
D&D Insider
This is the "D&D Online" section of Gleemax
It contains a "Dungeon Master's Kit" that includes the following:
dungeon builder (map tool)
adventure builder
PC generator
other things (Source)
"Character Generator"
character sheets
character visualizer (Source)
"My Campaign"
"My Character" (Source)
"D&D Game Table" (Source)
"Dungeon & Dragon Magazines" (Source)
Open Gaming Licence
3rd party publishers will be able to get licenses to create 4e material from Wizards. (source)
Fans will be able to publish material on Gleemax under (free) license from Wizards. (This material will be available to Wizards to republish; see discussion on Gleemax TOS).
The OGL/SRD/d20 Licenses will still exist - details still to come (Source)
Have you tried clicking the link to the sources? It denies me and my 8 WoTC forum nicknames.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Um...what about if we think Gleemax is a turd and what to do the OGL thing wherever we like...?Open Gaming Licence
3rd party publishers will be able to get licenses to create 4e material from Wizards. (source)
Fans will be able to publish material on Gleemax under (free) license from Wizards. (This material will be available to Wizards to republish; see discussion on Gleemax TOS).
The OGL/SRD/d20 Licenses will still exist - details still to come (Source)
The idea regarding gleemax appears to be that you can publish your material. Maybe I'm reading too much into that word, but given that WotC has been saying that part of Gleemax will be allowing third parties to use Gleemax to distribute their niche product, this sounds to me like they are making it very easy to self publish, even easier than it is now. The only catch is that if you come up with the next super cool thing through publishing it on Gleemax, they've got a license to republish. A sefl-publishing scheme like that is significant and could easily co-exist alongside a version of the OGL similar to what we have now.
And, it would sure be a way to stoke up the fan base. Everyone who plays thinks they've got what it takes to publish if only they had the opportunity. Gleemax could give everyone the opportunity to be a publisher and do so in a forum that both WotC and other gamers are going to be watching. So, instead of churning out a dinky little pdf and trying to get attention on the forums, direct traffic to your website, etc, you just post on your Gleemax blog and bammo, everyone there can find (and possibly purchase) your product.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Another update from ENWorld re D&D Insider:
Become a Dungeons & Dragons Insider and gain access to exclusive content designed specifically with D&D players in mind. As part of your monthly subscription, you gain access to features designed to enhance your D&D experience, including:
D&D Insider Magazine, online magazine with new content updated daily, including:
-Product Previews (articles showcasing upcoming D&D products)
-Class Features (articles expanding existing character class options and debuting new character and prestige classes)
-Strategy and Tactics (articles relating to D&D roleplaying combat and spellcasting, and to D&D Miniatures Skirmish play)
-Design and Development (articles and columns exploring the many facets of the D&D experience, written by game designers in D&D R&D)
-D&D Humor (comic strips devoted to the D&D experience)
D&D Product Enhancements (expanded content for D&D products you bought, including interactive content such as searchable indexes, extra features, behind the scenes articles, game designer and developer commentary, and more)
Exclusive Content that expands your favorite campaign world
-Eberron and Forgotten Realms ongoing content
-Interactive maps
-World events and adventure hooks
D&D University
-Rolling six-week course to help make you a better D&D player
-Course message boards
-Player tip of the week from D&D R&D
- MyCharacter.Com pages that you can design and populate, with a Premium Customization Kit that includes D&D art, frames, and icons
- Private Message Boards that give you a direct line to D&D R&D
- Premium RPGA Membership Card mailed to you
- Fast Lane Registration at all RPGA events (online and in the real world)
- The Magic Shop, a virtual shop where you can outfit your D&D character
D&D Character Builder, a program that helps you create and manage your D&D characters. This program allows you to create a character for any D&D game, walking you through the process of rolling the dice and assigning your game statistics, as well as creating a visual version of your character using "paper doll" models and "drag and click" selections of armor and weapons. At the end, you can save your character and print out a character sheet, as well as go to any D&D tournament and call up your character for use, or use the character at the Virtual Gaming Table (see below). With this package, you get to create and store up to 10 different characters or up to 10 different versions of one character (your character at different levels), or some combination of the two.
-Exclusive D&D-related novels and short stories written by your favorite authors
-Real-World D&D Search Engines (find D&D gamers, game stores, tournaments, and events in your area)
-In-Game D&D Search Engines (find feats, spells, magic items, and other D&D-related topics)
Digital Gaming Table, a program that allows you to play D&D using the Internet as your kitchen table, with a viewable play surface, dice rolling, virtual miniatures, and voice chat. Now you don't have to wait for your home gaming group to get together to play a game of D&D. You can still play your weekly face-to-face game, but now you can also play two or three more times a week by finding a game at the virtual table. Or, you might want to reconnect with your old gaming pals who long ago moved away-now you can all play together again on a regular basis! With this package, you get to play at the table 3 times per month.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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More stuff re OGL from ENWorld:
Open Gaming Licence
* 4th Edition will fall under the OGL, and there'll be a new SRD (this post by thormagni)
* Wizards wants 3rd party publishers to produce 4e-compatible material. (this post by thormagni)
* 3rd party publishers will be able to get licenses to create 4e material from Wizards. (??)(source: jgbrowning This post)
* Fans will be able to publish material on Gleemax under (free) license from Wizards. (This material will be available to Wizards to republish; see discussion on Gleemax TOS).
* The OGL/SRD/d20 Licenses will still exist - details still to come (source: this post)
The bolded paragraph is from a sketchy-ish source (a poster who says he was at the press release announcing 4e) but that might make a lot of people here happy.
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Hey, paper/rock/scissors is the secret to a happy marriage!
It's also played as a sport, believe it or not. Check out the USA RPS League website for lots of info.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Have you tried clicking the link to the sources? It denies me and my 8 WoTC forum nicknames.
I haven't. They should still be taken with a grain of salt. That being said though, ENWorld does have a good track record. They were accurate 85-90% of the time when 3e was launched, particularly on the high level elements.
Have you tried clicking the link to the sources? It denies me and my 8 WoTC forum nicknames.I haven't. They should still be taken with a grain of salt. That being said though, ENWorld does have a good track record. They were accurate 85-90% of the time when 3e was launched, particularly on the high level elements.
True enough.
If it truly is 4e, I seriously don't know if I should be excited or worried. I guess I will just be patient, and see what happens.
I swear the day 4th edition comes out I will post a "5th edition wishlist" topic or something of that matter, asking when it will come out.
We are buying new PHB's at 4 years intervals! what the hell?!
I want an chat with one of these people that decided to do such a stupid thing. like a...
"Talk to the game designers between 5pm and 9pm on saturday, sept 13"
i dunno if setp. 13 falls on a saturday i'm just giving an example, I WANT TO GIVE THEM A PIECE OF MY MIND!
Thanks much for the updates. I'm not a huge fan of the RPGA after the polymorph changes, nor of subscription based models for D&D, but...eh..maybe I'll give it a shot. It could...not suck (and if that’s not a glowing product endorsement!).
It's also played as a sport, believe it or not. Check out the USA RPS League website for lots of info.
Oh...my...God. Thank you so much. I feel 10,000 times better about myself as a person now. Bwahahaha, holy crap.
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Have you tried clicking the link to the sources? It denies me and my 8 WoTC forum nicknames.Here's the consolidated info regarding the 4e products from EnWorld:
Player's Handbook 4e: May 2008 (Source)
Dungeon Master's Guide 4e: June 2008 (Source)
Monster Manual 4e: July 2008 (Source)
D&D Insider
This is the "D&D Online" section of Gleemax
It contains a "Dungeon Master's Kit" that includes the following:
dungeon builder (map tool)
adventure builder
PC generator
other things (Source)
"Character Generator"
character sheets
character visualizer (Source)
"My Campaign"
"My Character" (Source)
"D&D Game Table" (Source)
"Dungeon & Dragon Magazines" (Source)
Open Gaming Licence
3rd party publishers will be able to get licenses to create 4e material from Wizards. (source)
Fans will be able to publish material on Gleemax under (free) license from Wizards. (This material will be available to Wizards to republish; see discussion on Gleemax TOS).
The OGL/SRD/d20 Licenses will still exist - details still to come (Source)
I did so yesterday and was able to access the site for awhile. It then got locked down. Obviously either a glitch or they were testing.
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Re: reverse compatibility - how'd that work when 3.5 came outn remind me again? Still rocking sword and fist at the table? It is compatible after all.
Convertible, maybe. Not sure about compatible. I still remember converting large numbers of creatures from 2nd edition to 3rd edition. It was ugly.
However, I will reserve judgement until I see it for myself.
Sebastian -- thanks for all the updates.
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More stuff re OGL from ENWorld:
Open Gaming Licence
* 4th Edition will fall under the OGL, and there'll be a new SRD (this post by thormagni)
* Wizards wants 3rd party publishers to produce 4e-compatible material. (this post by thormagni)
* 3rd party publishers will be able to get licenses to create 4e material from Wizards. (??)(source: jgbrowning This post)
* Fans will be able to publish material on Gleemax under (free) license from Wizards. (This material will be available to Wizards to republish; see discussion on Gleemax TOS).
* The OGL/SRD/d20 Licenses will still exist - details still to come (source: this post)The bolded paragraph is from a sketchy-ish source (a poster who says he was at the press release announcing 4e) but that might make a lot of people here happy.
Thanks for all this info, very informative. If it's all accurate, it actually makes some good sense.
Let me speak as an old guy gamer who also has done alot of business stuff over the years.
I don't know any of the numbers, but I'm sure their market hasn't been growing by leaps and bounds anymore. Part of being able to sustain a brand is to refresh it. See: A bazillion versions of Monopoly. That's a reality, you can't get away from it.
They also can't shoot themselves in the foot here. They've got products still on the shelf and coming out in the next 18 months that are all 3.5 based. Whatever they're doing, it will have to be compatible with that.
Now, the kids these days love that "interweb" thing, so tying into it makes alot of sense. Online playing, publishing your character(myspace) etc. It all fits with the demographic they want to reach.
And if there is still OGL+SRD then all your old stuff and all the great content coming from Paizo should be fine.
I, personally, think they've needed a refresh for a bit. I'm tired of the churn of books that are derivatives of previous material. The number of base classes and prestige classes is just silly.
If you had the opportunity to check out the changes that were done from SWRPG to SWRPG Saga, you can see what they might be aiming for. I loved the simplification of the classes and skills in there. The skills especially. Perception vs. Listen/Spot/Search/Etc. Great! That makes it much more accesible for people who aren't hard core (which you must realize is not you, since you've just read the entire posting from a game forum messageboard geek)
It was as inevitable as the next sunrise, as it is business logic.
I'm far from convinced that what is taken as basic "business logic" is actually logical at all. Quite frankly, I think that the majority of corporate practices in the American/Western business world/model today are short-sighted, small-minded, and ultimately part of a culture and society that's not sustainable in the long run. I'm drifting from D&D here, but the point remains that some bean-counting economist/market analyst/coporate @$$^!)# attempting to show me how this move makes sense doesn't have a whole lot of chance of succeeding.
EDIT- Let me add some clarity; I don't dislike economists and market analysts (well, the second one pushes it) universally. However, I feel an unusually high percentage of them have their anteriors stuck up their posteriors.
I'm pretty satisfied with 3.5. It took my group a while to switch over from 2nd so I don't see us even looking at 4 for a long time. There are so many cool 3.5 adventures I'm still waiting to run.
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I'm pretty satisfied with 3.5. It took my group a while to switch over from 2nd so I don't see us even looking at 4 for a long time. There are so many cool 3.5 adventures I'm still waiting to run.
I remember when the "advanced" edition came out and we all wondered if we should get rid of our basic and expert rulesets. :-)
I have to second angry ape on that feeling. I have so many adventures in Ptolus, Pathfinder, and Iron Kingdoms left to do, let alone realms and greyhawk. I see no real reason to switch anytime soon.
Less the players get antsy.
My "good authority" for d4's and 4 stats was a preverted leprechaun who hangs around with a weredog (in other words, I was kidding). Wait... this just in... standard dice are now considered "boring." 4th edition will introduce the d7 and d34.
I never said anything like that.
heheheheheheeeee!
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My "good authority" for d4's and 4 stats was a preverted leprechaun who hangs around with a weredog (in other words, I was kidding). Wait... this just in... standard dice are now considered "boring." 4th edition will introduce the d7 and d34.
I'm still waiting for my D1...
"Roll the die"
"I got a 1"
"Roll again"
"I got a 1"
...