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3rd party material is the best fighter. 1st party material that competes with the Fighter's roll is also a very good fighter. Here are some examples of good 3rd party fighters, since we all know the 1st party competitors.
We have the Talented Fighter, which is a fighter that basically lets you construct your own class features to be tailor made to your character's fighting style.
We have the Warlord and the Warder from Path of War, who are martial maneuver initiators. The Warlord is very much "tactical command + damage," like some kind of combat leader. The Warder is "group defense + self defense + damage." Both feel very much "Fighter." They also get skill points.
Psionic Warrior (Dreamscarred press) is like a fighter and a psion. He be cool guy who does cool things.
Aegis (Dreamscarred press) is like a fighter who wears evolving power armor. Its incredibly cool!
Marksman (Dreamscarred press) is one of the best archer fighter characters I have seen.
Soulknife (Dreamscarred press) is also very good for a melee or ranged fighter. Despite the name, he can actually make a psionic great sword. Gets a lot of cool abilities, and his blade talents are actually good.
The Iron Lord from the upcoming Libris Influxis is supposed to be a "command" fighter from what I heard. He is not released, but something to look forward to.
Outside of a Druid or Summoner, I think some sort of Ranger/Rogue/Horizon Walker would start taking the cake after level 9.
Paladins can do absolutely disgusting damage to Evil creatures, and can take more of a beating than anyone. But a Barbarian with the Come At Me, Bro rage power is terrifying as well.
Of course, the king of melee damage is probably still that weird Cave Druid.
Outside of a Druid or Summoner, I think some sort of Ranger/Rogue/Horizon Walker would start taking the cake after level 9.
Paladins can do absolutely disgusting damage to Evil creatures, and can take more of a beating than anyone. But a Barbarian with the Come At Me, Bro rage power is terrifying as well.
Of course, the king of melee damage is probably still that weird Cave Druid.
After the ACG comes out, make that a Slayer6/HW and reap the benefits/whirlwind
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WarPriest
Reason: Take a look at the class, you can take a swift action every round and make yourself even deadlier. Swift Action Divine Power, Swift Action Sacred Weapon +3, Swift Action Bull's Strength, Swift Action Righteous Might, Swift Action Deadly Juggernaut. Your charisma bonus should be high enough with this class to take all the eldritch feats too.
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That depends on what the equal things are:)
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Honestly? A 9-level caster with mid-BAB who focuses on it, and has good buff spells (or other features) available. Like a battle Cleric or melee Druid.
Some martials and 6-level casters are very good indeed (Barbarians, Paladins, Bards, Slayers, Inquisitors, Alchemists, etc.), and can be very effective and contributing party members...but full spellcasters win at pretty much everything in Pathfinder, at least when optimized.
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So which class is best at melee combat all things being equal? I would have fought at late levels paladins would be the clear winner, divine power + fates favored (unsanctioned knowledge) beat weapons training for damage perks and if you are really cheesing things paladins will find it much easier to qualify for the elderict heritage(orc)line which give some of the most amazing bonuses in the game especially with the optimistic gambler trait. The line can give gives a massive bonus to strength(+12 strength with power of giants + inate) and +9 to damage and attack as a standard action for 1+ 1d4 rounds 7-10 times per day (a swift if you allow quicken spell like ability). But I am not sure what does everyone else think ?
The most effective class is whichever one is being played by the most skilled player.
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Druid. Can be a brutal pouncer or a brutal vital striker (or both), can get a really high AC thanks to the ever wonderful Wild enhancement and dragonhide fullplate along with good scaling buffs like Barkskin. Has a large selection of spells of give them additional versatility and they know their whole list. Oh ya, lets not forget the second Fighter they bring with them. Who can also have pounce just to really really rub it in.
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The most effective class is whichever one is being played by the most skilled player.Not necessarily true, it is much harder to win rock paper scissors when you only have scissors to play with.
Yes.
If you don't understand the game and the tools available, you will loose.
Some people choose to wear blinders and walk around say "I cannot", others choose to look for solutions and expand on the possible using all available tools. People in the second group will always come out ahead, regardless of class chosen.
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Level is a definite factor in this question, but if we're talking life of game on a 20 level spread from a player with good system mastery, it's probably something like the following order for core classes:
Druid - Best DPR, great situational adaptibility, built in damage and flank buddy
Barbarian (with Pounce and Superstition) - Saves are an extremely important factor, because if you can't move or you're fighting for the enemy, it doesn't matter how hard or well you hit. Pounce means you don't suffer from the action economy inequality normally found between martials and casters. Your DPR may be slightly lower than the Paladin or Cavalier (level dependent), but the fact that you're version of Pounce can't be shot out from under you and your superior saves give you the edge.
Paladin / Cavalier - This is campaign dependent, but since we said "all things being equal"... If they're both mounted, the Cavalier would have an advantage in damage in all situations except a campaign full of dragons, undead, or evil outsiders where the Paladin can reliably cast LoR pre-charge. If I had to pick one over the other, it be Paladin, due to better saves.
Bard - Arcane Duelist pretty much means you win.
Alchemist (specific archetypes) - Vivisectionist with the right discoveries can tear a day up in a serious way.
Oracle - Moves up past Barbarian and PalCav if there's extended time for buffing.
Inquisitor - With the right choices for Solo Tactics can boost total group action economy while dishing out very solid damage and needing little group support to stay alive.
Ranger - It's like combat Druid lite, with less buffing time required and better weapon options.
Samurai - Resolve is a solid martial ability, but his narrow selection of options for his bonus Fighter feats is a bummer.
Monk - Good saves and can target multiple defenses. Heavily reliant on system mastery and picking the right archetype.
Fighter - Can hit hard. Can potentially move past Monk and Samurai depending on build and campaign. Racial archetypes and feats can also elevate his performance, particularly half-orcs and dwarves.
Rogue - Can sometimes hit and deal a reasonable amount of damage, needs heavy team support in combat.
I didn't touch arcane casters, because... It's not worth it. At high levels Summoners, Wizards, and Sorcerers are all capable of taking the combat monster prize, especially with sufficient time to buff
The most effective class is whichever one is being played by the most skilled player.
That only actually works if everything is on equal grounds. You aren't playing a game where everyone is. Tiers are based on the idea that everyone is on the same level because that's how you judge a class based on its merits and potential. Its a lot easier to conquer the world as a wizard than a commoner.
Anyways, in core my favorite non magical is the barbarian.
The most effective class is whichever one is being played by the most skilled player.That only actually works if everything is on equal grounds. You aren't playing a game where everyone is. Tiers are based on the idea that everyone is on the same level because that's how you judge a class based on its merits and potential. Its a lot easier to conquer the world as a wizard than a commoner.
Anyways, in core my favorite non magical is the barbarian.
To be fair, I've been in plenty of games where the system mastery gap was so wide that it made the gaps between classes less of an issue. Monks are weaker than wizards, but an optimized monk will still eat a poorly built and played wizard for breakfast.
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To be fair, I've been in plenty of games where the system mastery gap was so wide that it made the gaps between classes less of an issue. Monks are weaker than wizards, but an optimized monk will still eat a poorly built and played wizard for breakfast.The most effective class is whichever one is being played by the most skilled player.That only actually works if everything is on equal grounds. You aren't playing a game where everyone is. Tiers are based on the idea that everyone is on the same level because that's how you judge a class based on its merits and potential. Its a lot easier to conquer the world as a wizard than a commoner.
Anyways, in core my favorite non magical is the barbarian.
To be fair, I once played with a wizard who used a crossbow instead of his fifth level spells because he forgot he had access to 5th level spells. I don't say wizards are equal to guys who use crossbows because system mastery gaps can make them even though.
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That was kind of Sin's point though. The fact that Joey is new to the game and doesn't know how to play his wizard while Mark knows all the tricks to squeeze the most out of his monk is not a gauge of the comparative strengths of the monk and wizard, it's the comparative strengths of Mark and Joey. That'd be like saying boxing with one hand tied behind your back is superior to boxing with both hands become you once saw Mayweather beat up a hobo with one hand tied behind his back and the hobo using both hands. You need to compare the two classes at similar levels of system mastery, so Joey's wizard to Joey's fighter, and Mark's fighter to Mark's wizard.
To be fair, I once played with a wizard who used a crossbow instead of his fifth level spells because he forgot he had access to 5th level spells. I don't say wizards are equal to guys who use crossbows because system mastery gaps can make them even though.To be fair, I've been in plenty of games where the system mastery gap was so wide that it made the gaps between classes less of an issue. Monks are weaker than wizards, but an optimized monk will still eat a poorly built and played wizard for breakfast.The most effective class is whichever one is being played by the most skilled player.That only actually works if everything is on equal grounds. You aren't playing a game where everyone is. Tiers are based on the idea that everyone is on the same level because that's how you judge a class based on its merits and potential. Its a lot easier to conquer the world as a wizard than a commoner.
Anyways, in core my favorite non magical is the barbarian.
True. There are definitely massive gaps in class power levels assuming equal system mastery. And for that matter, the fact that system mastery can have such a huge impact on character effectiveness is arguably a flaw as well. There will always be good choices and bad choices, but it would be nice if the difference were a bit less extreme.
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Meaningless platitudes help how?
The most effective class is whichever one is being played by the most skilled player.
This argument has raged across dozens of threads. People point out constantly, "If you use these tools, the limits you complain about don't exist." Every single time, the complainers put their blinders on and scream, "That does not count, it's not a class feature."
For those who are know the game and are willing to use all the tools available, there is very little class disparity. It does not matter how loud the complainers scream, when someone who knows the game asks themselves, "How can I," instead of complaining, "I can't," there is always a way. The skilled and open minded player will bring that way to the table and use it, and their characters will succeed regardless of how much or how loudly the naysayers complain.
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Meaningless platitudes help how?
The most effective class is whichever one is being played by the most skilled player.This argument has raged across dozens of threads. People point out constantly, "If you use these tools, the limits you complain about don't exist." Every single time, the complainers put their blinders on and scream, "That does not count, it's not a class feature."
For those who are know the game and are willing to use all the tools available, there is very little class disparity. It does not matter how loud the complainers scream, when someone who knows the game asks themselves, "How can I," instead of complaining, "I can't," there is always a way. The skilled and open minded player will bring that way to the table and use it, and their characters will succeed regardless of how much or how loudly the naysayers complain.
That's not the question. The question is "Which class is better assuming Anzyr is playing both of them." And guess what, when I play a Druid and a Fighter, the Druid is going to be more effective. Because I know more about Druids then Fighters? Nope! It's because Druid is a better class for being a melee then a Fighter.
So Artanthos, you can't tell me you couldn't make a Druid that was better then a Fighter, because we both know you can. In fact, all those Fighters builds you throw around could be better rebuilt as Druids. And I have great confidence that you would be capable of it. So give it shot, and then you'll see the power of Druids being better then Fighters.
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This argument has raged across dozens of threads. People point out constantly, "If you use these tools, the limits you complain about don't exist." Every single time, the complainers put their blinders on and scream, "That does not count, it's not a class feature."For those who are know the game and are willing to use all the tools available, there is very little class disparity. It does not matter how loud the complainers scream, when someone who knows the game asks themselves, "How can I," instead of complaining, "I can't," there is always a way. The skilled and open minded player will bring that way to the table and use it, and their characters will succeed regardless of how much or how loudly the naysayers complain.
Some just won't succeed as well or as easily as others since they're reliant on inconstant crutches and the gentle warmth of a loving GM.
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This argument has raged across dozens of threads. People point out constantly, "If you use these tools, the limits you complain about don't exist." Every single time, the complainers put their blinders on and scream, "That does not count, it's not a class feature."The most effective class is whichever one is being played by the most skilled player.Meaningless platitudes help how?
Perspective: Someone tells you "Fighters can fly", you say "what? Fighters can't fly!", then the person shows you their character, who is an Aasimar with a racial feat that can fly and you say "That's not the fighter flying, its the Aasimar. Anyone can be an Aasimar!" "Yes, but I made a fighter fly."
People aren't putting on their blinders when they say the Fighter can't fly, they're saying the fighter can't fly because the fighter class itself doesn't give you the power to fly, as opposed to say, a wizard, which cast fly. Replace Aasimar with UMD or balrog if needed.
Edit: Also you know, the whole thing about how the guy with the same level of system mastery using another class, can do a better job using the other class. Like other people said.
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What, for the purposes of the question, constitutes being a 'Fighter', exactly? Burst damage? Tanking? Survival against any odds?
Paladins make the best tanks with a variety of means at their disposal to protect their teammates and take a terrific beating. Barbarians make the best sustained and burst damage for my money. Having said that, I've made Paladins capable of dealing huge amounts of damage and Barbarians that are almost unkillable as well.
And yes, to the OP, the over-use of the Optimistic Gambler trait - a trait intended for use in a specific AP only - is pure cheese and unnecessary to make a deadly effective Paladin. Optimization is one thing, bowing your head in shame and embarrassment when you present your character to the rest of the party is another.
After the Barbarian and the Paladin comes the Ranger in my estimation, followed by Fighters and Rogues and certain other archetypes - an Aasimar Dervish of Dawn for instance can make for a devastatingly effective melee combatant. Don't have any experience with Magus or Inquisitors.
EDIT: I have to say, that in my opinion when discussing such things, magical gear has no place in the conversation. Everyone would in theory have access to all the same equipment and in practice never do, both of which are good reasons to omit gear from the equation. The question is about what the various classes can do, not what they can buy.
Slayer--d10 hit dice, full BAB, 6 skill points per level, 2 good saves, and a host of abilities that more than make up for armor training, weapon training, and feats at every even level (oh, and bravery, can't forget that).
Gestalt :P
Either a sysnthesist or an invulnerable ragelancepounce come-and-get-me human barbarian with a courageous weapon.
Depends how much you value spells.
I am.
I'm saddened that no one has said "Chuck Norris"
Ragelancepounce doesn't work.Either a sysnthesist or an invulnerable ragelancepounce come-and-get-me human barbarian with a courageous weapon.
Depends how much you value spells.
Actually, it was FAQed back into working in the most recent change to mounted combat.
Ok. First. Who has the highest DPR and how do they achieve that?
After the ACG comes out, make that a Slayer6/HW and reap the benefits/whirlwindOutside of a Druid or Summoner, I think some sort of Ranger/Rogue/Horizon Walker would start taking the cake after level 9.
Slayer doesn't get Endurance for free =(
But I'll see what I can whip up at that point.
Ok. First. Who has the highest DPR and how do they achieve that?
Druid. Especially if Mythic Vital Strike is in play.
Ok. First. Who has the highest DPR and how do they achieve that?
I've got a Horizon Walker laying around who dishes out 238 non-crits without any bonuses other than his class features. A +5 Weapon bumps it up to 258
Ok. First. Who has the highest DPR and how do they achieve that?I've got a Horizon Walker laying around who dishes out 238 non-crits without any bonuses other than his class features. A +5 Weapon bumps it up to 258
If I play it up and use a Double-Barreled Gun, I can get that up to 414 in a round.
I'm saddened that no one has said "Chuck Norris"
You can't play Chuck Norris, Chuck Norris plays you.
After the ACG comes out, make that a Slayer6/HW and reap the benefits/whirlwindOutside of a Druid or Summoner, I think some sort of Ranger/Rogue/Horizon Walker would start taking the cake after level 9.
Slayer doesn't get Endurance for free =(
But I'll see what I can whip up at that point.
If you need it 'for free' a half-orc can trade out intimidating for shaman's apprentice and get it as a bonus feat.
Actually, it was FAQed back into working in the most recent change to mounted combat.Ragelancepounce doesn't work.Either a sysnthesist or an invulnerable ragelancepounce come-and-get-me human barbarian with a courageous weapon.
Depends how much you value spells.
My understanding is it never stopped working. They just nerfed it a little so you didn't get triple damage on a pounce with a lance.
If you need it 'for free' a half-orc can trade out intimidating for shaman's apprentice and get it as a bonus feat.
That works.
You get all the attacks on a ragelancepounce. But you only get the extra charge damage on the first attack.
==Aelryinth
Ragelancepounce doesn't work.Either a sysnthesist or an invulnerable ragelancepounce come-and-get-me human barbarian with a courageous weapon.
Depends how much you value spells.
Doesn't really matter. It's the pounce that is important. Which the synthesist can do that too sadly.
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Ok. First. Who has the highest DPR and how do they achieve that?
CAGM/Beast totem barbarian can get pretty high up there, if not for pure damage on his full attacks his ability to make them consistently and to deliver bonus attacks. Coupled with superstitious for good saves he's also got some of the highest AC potential.
Have I mentioned I like barbarians today?