Pathfinder Lost Omens: Firebrands

So hopefully not digging up the conversation too much since I'm a few days late, but I have to wholeheartedly agree with Keftiu. I'm working my way through the Knights of Lastwall book and the lore is taking a faction that didn't really resonate with me and making it into one I get and enjoy. The Firebrands and in a similar position - they haven't leaped out at me yet as a group I want to use, but I fully expect this book will give them the same treatment. The balance between crunch and lore in these books has ben excellent and I would be disappointed if we lost that wonderful world building.

I will say, I’m hoping for some sub-factions with more evocative names. “The Firebrands” is only a little better than “The Rebels” in terms of being on the nose, especially compared to their Silver Ravens predecessors. Knights of Lastwall was really good about this!

Speaking of KoL, I’d *love* a section on Firebrands slang like we got there.

Here's hoping there's a 2nd level dedication feat for the Firebrands! Everybody else has one.

Does the Firebrand Braggart Dedication count for this or am I misunderstanding what you're referring to here?

Evan Tarlton wrote:

Here's hoping there's a 2nd level dedication feat for the Firebrands! Everybody else has one.

Does the Firebrand Braggart Dedication count for this or am I misunderstanding what you're referring to here?

Firebrand players can't take Firebrand Braggart until 4th level. The other organizations have dedications that players can take at 2nd (Hellknight Armiger, Lastwall Sentry, Magaambyan Attendant, Pathfinder Agent).

Ah, that's right. I forgot that the dedication was 4th level. Unfortunately, there won't be a new archetype or dedication feat in this book. During the creation of the Character Guide, I considered the possibility of a "Firebrand Infiltrator" archetype, but so much of the theme and mechanical concept was taken up by existing archetypes and other options that it felt weird to try to retread that ground in what felt like an unnecessary way, at least to me. I think people will find the feats that are in the book to be exciting, however, and hopefully scratch the Firebrand option itch.

Ah, that's right. I forgot that the dedication was 4th level. Unfortunately, there won't be a new archetype or dedication feat in this book. During the creation of the Character Guide, I considered the possibility of a "Firebrand Infiltrator" archetype, but so much of the theme and mechanical concept was taken up by existing archetypes and other options that it felt weird to try to retread that ground in what felt like an unnecessary way, at least to me. I think people will find the feats that are in the book to be exciting, however, and hopefully scratch the Firebrand option itch.

Okay. Thanks!

Ah, that's right. I forgot that the dedication was 4th level. Unfortunately, there won't be a new archetype or dedication feat in this book. During the creation of the Character Guide, I considered the possibility of a "Firebrand Infiltrator" archetype, but so much of the theme and mechanical concept was taken up by existing archetypes and other options that it felt weird to try to retread that ground in what felt like an unnecessary way, at least to me. I think people will find the feats that are in the book to be exciting, however, and hopefully scratch the Firebrand option itch.

I would definitely welcome some more support for the "revolutionary super-spy" side of the group.

Maybe Paizo could consider doing something like "Variant Dedications" so you could allow membership to groups that have a character concept already provided by another archetype.

Like Firebrand Masked Hero Dedication - Allows you get Vigilante feats while providing slight different starting benefits

It always bother me when an class/archetype implies a organization that doesn´t actually exists in Golarion and we are throw into a limbo of things that don´t exists and a Golarion organization that should provides that context but don´t actually.

Like how the Cavalier worked in 1E with a lot of orders that didn´t exist but there were the Hellknights, Knights of Last Wall and etc that weren´t none of it

Maybe Paizo could consider doing something like "Variant Dedications" so you could allow membership to groups that have a character concept already provided by another archetype.

Like Firebrand Masked Hero Dedication - Allows you get Vigilante feats while providing slight different starting benefits

It always bother me when an class/archetype implies a organization that doesn´t actually exists in Golarion and we are throw into a limbo of things that don´t exists and a Golarion organization that should provides that context but don´t actually.

Like how the Cavalier worked in 1E with a lot of orders that didn´t exist but there were the Hellknights, Knights of Last Wall and etc that weren´t none of it

IMO that feels like a vague area that wouldn't benefit most people. Concepts like these can already be created by just taking the two archetypes, though I admit is a bit heavy on the feat side.

But on the other end, if the feats from one archetype fit the theme of another, Paizo could simply add the appropriate feats as "Additional Feats" for that archetype.

In short, I don't see Variant Dedications being a thing, but something tables could easily homebrew at their table.

Just to note that the archetypes have "being a member" as an access requierement. They don't "allow you" to be a member, you "need" to be a member to take it. That means that not all member of that organisation have that archetype. There could be a pure wizard firebrand that never take the archetype. They could still be a member.

Additionally, there could be a rogue member training non-members into the archetype. That means that it,s also technically possible to have the archetype without being a member of the related organization.

Hmm I wonder if "Shaking the Helping Hand" case from Dark Archives is how Paizo will handle abduction plotlines and such in future?

A Hellknights themed book better be in the works! I want to have a bunch of evil campaigns that will see the bad guys win for once, and restore order!

Would you (and everyone else here!) find a Lost Omen book that has more encounter maps, short adventures, and the like useful? I don't know if a book that is just adventures is the best fit for this line, but there might be a way to give it the Lost Omen spin, as it were, and make it a book that features content for players and GMs of all kinds, not just 128 pages of adventure.

Definitely, I would then purchase, I am skipping these currently through lack of stuff useful to me.

demlin wrote:

Bit disappointed with the overall direction of the 2e LO line. Instead of focusing on useful GM campaign material, the small books mostly contain dry fluff and some situational archetypes. Then the other books focusing on players like Dark Archive get quest seeds and adventures. What's up with that?

It sounds like what you're looking for are pre-written adventures and encounters, like the short adventures featured in Dark Archive? Is that right?

I feel like Lost Omens features dozens if not hundreds of plot and adventure hooks in each volume, but those are usually one or two line things like noting that the local hunter has seen a scary and evil creature stalking the nearby woods and is afraid to venture in there until someone finds out what it is. These kind of hooks are there to get the gears turning in a GM's brain and hopefully inspire some fun encounter, adventure, or even campaign ideas. I'm guessing these aren't scratching that itch for you.

Would you (and everyone else here!) find a Lost Omen book that has more encounter maps, short adventures, and the like useful? I don't know if a book that is just adventures is the best fit for this line, but there might be a way to give it the Lost Omen spin, as it were, and make it a book that features content for players and GMs of all kinds, not just 128 pages of adventure.

Isn't that kinda like how 1e campaign books had suggested campaign outlines with story arcs for several levels with maybe one map or big bad statblock?

Either way, yeah I disagree with idea that lore doesn't help with running games xP You can never have too much inspiration

Treading carefully here, so as to avoid moderator ire - I’m a little bummed that this won’t get a chance to feature abolitionism, as it seemed like one of the big obvious Firebrands causes. Not that there’s any shortage of other tyranny and injustice, but it fits them like a glove, given their Vidric origin and Bellflower allies.

For what it's worth, the programme of the emancipation of labor goes far beyond abolition of slavery. I don't expect the Firebrands to be an on-the-nose analogue to the First International, but I think of them that way given the timing and tocsin for their creation (Ravounel and Vidrian here playing the role of Poland - and it wasn't like the International was agnostic on the questions of slavery or Russian serfdom) and would be tickled by any nods in that direction.

I will say, I’m hoping for some sub-factions with more evocative names. “The Firebrands” is only a little better than “The Rebels” in terms of being on the nose, especially compared to their Silver Ravens predecessors. Knights of Lastwall was really good about this!

Speaking of KoL, I’d *love* a section on Firebrands slang like we got there.

Given the affiliate-based and voluntaristic organizational structure of the Firebrands, I can only imagine we'll be getting information on national and local affiliates (as well as seeing which preexisting organizations decided to affiliate - I would very much like to see the Heralds of Summer's Return from Irrisen among them, for instance). And these could be named just about anything. Frankly, the big-tent International having a generic name and the affiliates being rather more colorful only makes sense, especially in the case of a rather hands-off International.

Sorry for the double-post, thought of this just too late to edit my last one, but something I think would be interesting and should be featured are the Ravounel and Vidric national Firebrand affiliates' relations to their home countries - not in terms of sponsorship, but in terms of political intervention. These countries' revolutionary processes are far from complete as presented in either the World Guide or Tomorrow Must Burn or The Mwangi Expanse. Both are still ruled by ad hoc councils (in Ravounel's case a revolutionary council and a federal council; in Vidrian's a congress of guilds/soviets) balancing corporate interests, and neither has universal suffrage for their respective councils. In Ravounel the localities are self-governing and may or may not have universal suffrage therein (for instance, Kintargo's people seem to elect its Lord-Mayor, but Vyre's does not elect its Kings and Queens), while in Vidrian only some of the guilds/soviets elect their representatives and power depends on being a member of one of those. Vidrian is rather more advanced in terms of collectivizing property (particularly the big estates, which Ravounel left in the hands of its nobles and only confiscated if they backed the old regime - though Ravounel has its share of cooperative enterprises in Kintargo and Cypress Point), and has a more developed trade union movement (in that it has a name - Ravounel's can be inferred to exist, but isn't named anywhere). Are the national Firebrand affiliates still politically engaged in these countries? Are they pushing further measures to emancipate labor (particularly in Ravounel, which rather needs to catch up to Vidrian), regularize the constitutions, or broaden the franchise? Or do they consider the work to be done and leave power in the hands of the revolutionary elites?

So, the Knights of Lastwall had a whole chapter devoted to the various locales that might host their campaigns: a 12 page gazetteer of the Gravelands, 4 pages on the Eye of Dread microregion, 2 pages each on the Absalom, Broken Lands, and Shining Kingdoms microregions, and then 2 pages on miscellaneous other efforts.

Assuming a similar structure here (one or two regions in considerable depth, three others covered more briefly), where would you want to see the Firebrands focus on?

Given their roots in both Ravounel and Vidrian, both seem like safe bets. Shackles pirates are archetypal for Firebrands, as are abolitionist efforts in Cheliax and the Golden Road... but fighting against tyranny and being a flashy braggart can happen just about anywhere!

So, the Knights of Lastwall had a whole chapter devoted to the various locales that might host their campaigns: a 12 page gazetteer of the Gravelands, 4 pages on the Eye of Dread microregion, 2 pages each on the Absalom, Broken Lands, and Shining Kingdoms microregions, and then 2 pages on miscellaneous other efforts.

Assuming a similar structure here (one or two regions in considerable depth, three others covered more briefly), where would you want to see the Firebrands focus on?

Given their roots in both Ravounel and Vidrian, both seem like safe bets. Shackles pirates are archetypal for Firebrands, as are abolitionist efforts in Cheliax and the Golden Road... but fighting against tyranny and being a flashy braggart can happen just about anywhere!

I like this list. We'd probably get mention of their actions on the wider High Seas and more in the Mwangi Expanse. The Firebrands and the Bright Lions should be natural allies, but the clash in their methodologies would probably be a deal breaker. We'll probably also find out about ties to the Twilight Talons. I imagine more than a few Firebrand activities have had their support. Ditto the Bellflower Tillers. I strongly suspect a blurb on the Hellknights, as all but the Order of the Torrent should hate them (and even the Torrents would find them unreliable at best).

keftiu wrote:

So, the Knights of Lastwall had a whole chapter devoted to the various locales that might host their campaigns: a 12 page gazetteer of the Gravelands, 4 pages on the Eye of Dread microregion, 2 pages each on the Absalom, Broken Lands, and Shining Kingdoms microregions, and then 2 pages on miscellaneous other efforts.

Assuming a similar structure here (one or two regions in considerable depth, three others covered more briefly), where would you want to see the Firebrands focus on?

Given their roots in both Ravounel and Vidrian, both seem like safe bets. Shackles pirates are archetypal for Firebrands, as are abolitionist efforts in Cheliax and the Golden Road... but fighting against tyranny and being a flashy braggart can happen just about anywhere!

I like this list. We'd probably get mention of their actions on the wider High Seas and more in the Mwangi Expanse. The Firebrands and the Bright Lions should be natural allies, but the clash in their methodologies would probably be a deal breaker. We'll probably also find out about ties to the Twilight Talons. I imagine more than a few Firebrand activities have had their support. Ditto the Bellflower Tillers. I strongly suspect a blurb on the Hellknights, as all but the Order of the Torrent should hate them (and even the Torrents would find them unreliable at best).

I wouldn't be so sure about the Hellknights. In the Character Guide, Sapphire Butterfly is noted as clandestinely providing information to Lictor Toulon Vidoc in support of his investigation into corruption in the Thrune court. In the 1E Adventurer's Guide, the Silver Ravens were noted as expanding their activity towards Korvosa in an attempt to liberate the Shoanti and towards Rahadoum in an attempt to liberate the faithful.

So on the page-allocation model above, I could see: a 6-page gazetteer of Ravounel, a 6-page gazetteer of Vidrian, 4 pages on the Old Cheliax meta-region, 2 pages each on the High Seas, Mwangi Expanse, and Saga Lands meta-regions, and 2 pages on miscellaneous other efforts.

For the Ravounel gazetteer, I'd like to see 1) more specifics of Ravounel's local government, and 2) a focus on opportunities for adventurers to contribute to winning the battles for democracy and the emancipation of labor. By winning the battle for democracy, I mean transforming the Silver Council from a self-selected group of ex-revolutionaries and supportive nobles to an assembly elected by universal adult suffrage across the whole country, transformation of the baronies governed by estates into communes governed by assemblies elected by universal adult suffrage, and rationalization of the administration of justice. By winning the battle for the emancipation of labor, I mean promoting free labor and outlawing various forms of unfree labor short of slavery, liberating bonded labor where it is illicitly bonded, and promoting struggles (trade union and cooperative) for worker control in workplaces (private and state) and on the land (ditto). Everything we have seen so far suggests that Ravounel's revolution left its baronies and archbaronies mostly in place, so we should finally get a map of their bounds and their seats - and their seats should be replete with opportunities to undermine aristocratic power and push the Silver Council to democratize. For instance, to steal or destroy debt records, to rabble-rouse among laborers (miners, farmers), or to turn servants into spies. The locations left unexplored or underexplored in Hell's Rebels and Tomorrow Must Burn (for instance, the occasional floating market of the Revousa Ditches, the burgeoning industrial river port of Whiterock, the goblin settlements of Cape Dis, and the strix village of Tastikka) should be more fully detailed with opportunities to rabble-rouse, organize, and mediate as well (for instance, among the Yolubilis River boaters, the Whiterock masons, and between Ravounel Forest human loggers and strix). And Vyre, Cypress Point, and Kintargo's battlefields for the emancpiation of labor (combatting the illicit slave trade in Kintargo and Vyre if it's not a bridge too far; supporting trade union activity among the entertainers of Vyre and Kintargo - entertainers are the Silver Ravens' special province, after all - and at the nationalized Sallix Salt Works and private Vashnarstill Shipyard; and supporting cooperative enterprise in Vespam Artisans and in Cypress Point against privatizers) should be expanded upon.

The Vidrian gazetteer ought to follow similar lines, reproducing the information that appears in the World Guide and Mwangi Expanse and expanding upon it. The information in the World Guide and Mwangi Expanse are rather less deficient in showing victories in and opportunities to further wage the battles for democracy and the emancipation of labor than the corresponding sources for Ravounel, so focus might be spent here on rooting out elements of the old regime (for instance, the Order of the Coil and Aspis Consortium), and expanding upon the division between the swashbuckling and more serious Firebrands. The former might be arrivals from Ravounel and the Shackles, while the latter might be ex-Freemen's Brotherhood (I want them to have a bone thrown their way, after being shafted in Serpent's Skull) so that the anti-colonial struggle can be fought out within the Firebrands.

For the meta-region gazetteers, I would like to see a focus on Firebrands affiliates and those non-affiliated organizations with which they cooperate, and the tensions between them. In Old Cheliax, they might be Silver Ravens working to: integrate the White Thistles (with their similarly theatrical focus and politics) and coordinate between them, the Galtan partisans, the Whaler's Guild, and the strix in Pezzack (see Out of Anarchy and Towns of the Inner Sea) to resist the Chelish blockade and siege; or to radicalize the Children of Westcrown (see Council of Thieves) and/or Council of Thieves (see the Adventurer's Guide for both) in Westcrown; or jointly liberating slaves with the Bellflower Network; or clandestinely supporting Lictor Vidoc as described above; or to support the Church of Desna's subversive efforts in Nidal. For the Mwangi Expanse, the Bright Lions are the obvious allies, as set forth in others' posts. On the High Seas, we have Devrin Arlos and the Nightwave crew and other erstwhile Free Captains, but strictly speaking the relations between the Silver Ravens and the aquatic elves of Irim and Mirivenn in Ravounel could fall under this rubric. For the Saga Lands, I want to see the Firebrands either integrate as an affiliate, or cooperate with, the Heralds of Summer's Return in Irrisen. The Rose and Rake in Magnimar seem like a good fit to affiliate directly to the Silver Ravens for the same reason the White Thistles in Pezzack are; their focus would be further democratizing Magnimar. In Korvosa, the Ironsoots seem like an ally in the battle for emancpiation of labor (here meaning fighting restrictions on trade union organizing and activity), and in line with the Adventurer's Guide line about the Shoanti, Firebrands could be involved in liberating stolen artifacts from museums and infiltrating government and estate archives to destroy or alter settler land deeds. The Freemen in Kaer Maga were founded as abolitionists but scaled back their activities to manumitting slaves they purchased; this is gross and the scaling-back of slavery as a plot element gives the opportunity to reform and radicalize them. Firebrands might fight alongside elven and Ulfen guerrillas in New Edasseril. Outside of the focus areas (which all appear to be in meta-regions on the Steaming Sea and Arcadian Ocean, huh?), we might see Firebrands looking to emancipate labor in Oprak and Molthune, or affiliating some of the freedom fighters of Nirmathas, or we might see what became of the fateful first affiliate in Galt.

Put another way, a gazetteer might feature the following Firebrands affiliates and allies:
-Firebrands
--Silver Ravens (Ravounel; 4th Mark)
--Freemen's Brotherhood (Vidrian; 4th Mark)
--Children of Westcrown (Westcrown; 3rd Mark)
--White Thistles (Pezzack; 3rd Mark)
--Rose and Rake (Magnimar; 3rd Mark)
--Freemen (Kaer Maga; 3rd Mark)
-Allies
--Order of the Torrent (Ravounel)
--Church of Desna (Nidal)
--Twilight Talons (Andoran)
--Order of the Scourge* (Cheliax)
--Bellflower Network (Cheliax)
--Council of Thieves (Westcrown)
--Galtan partisans (Pezzack)
--Whaler's Guild (Pezzack)
--Ironsoots (Korvosa)
--Scarlet Rose (Korvosa)
--Lyrune Quah (Varisia)
--Sklar Quah (Varisia)
--Skoah Quah (Varisia)
--Heralds of Summer's Return (Irrisen)
--Bright Lions (Mzali)

Thinking more about what groups and known individuals we can expect to be affiliates. Looking at the World Guide, it has the Firebrands as primarily active (by which I mean, "listed among the three factions active in each meta-region) in four Inner Sea meta-regions: Starstone Isle, the Broken Lands, the High Seas, Old Cheliax, and the Saga Lands.

-Starstone Isle
--Tamrin Credence (3rd Mark; Pathfinder Society, Bellflower Network)
--Karisa Starsight (3rd Mark; Pathfinder Society)
-The Broken Lands
--Chops (1st Mark)
--Ionnia Valanti (2nd Mark)
--Nalla (1st Mark)
-The High Seas
--Nightwave
---Devrin Arlos (4th Mark)
---Gaspiya (2nd Mark)
---Giant (2nd Mark)
---Rikkan (2nd Mark)
---Vulmia Manux (2nd Mark)
--Umbral Spark
---Shimali Manux (4th Mark)
--Risen Albatross
---Stella Fane (4th Mark; Pathfinder Society, Free Captains)
-Old Cheliax
--Silver Ravens (4th Mark)
---Chuko
---Hetamon Haace (Rose of Kintargo)
---Jackdaw
---Jilia Bainilus
---Laria Longroad (Bellflower Network)
---Manticce Kaleekii
---Mialari Docur (Lacunafex)
---Molly Mayapple
---Nolly Peltry (Bellflower Network)
---Rexus Victocora
---Shensen
---Strea Vestori (Cloven Hoof Society)
---Vendalfek
---Vyvienne Ashurka/Sapphire Butterfly
--Pezzack Insurgents (3rd Mark)
---Habar Curl
--White Thistles (3rd Mark)
---Amalia Wraxton (4th Mark)
---Auntie
---Hazzleton Berryblack
---Kalizandrex Poppo
---Kallador Vim
---Lorrin Meese
---Madge
---Mimzy Berryblack
--Children of Westcrown (3rd Mark)
---Arael
---Janiven Key
---Amaya Kaijitsu
---Ermolos
---Rizzardo
---Tarvi
---Yakopulio
--Rannik Helt (4th Mark; Bellflower Network)
--Vanton Finch (2nd Mark)
-The Saga Lands
--Rose and Rake (3rd Mark)
---Annsa Shivarlu
--Freemen (3rd Mark)
---Halman Wright

I don't own Extinction Curse or Agents of Edgewatch, so I thought the old Liberty's Edge faction leader candidates might find a new home now that the faction's dead.

Ionnia, Nalla, and Chops, are from the PFS scenario Revolution on the Riverside. The Character Guide places a group of Firebrands in the River Kingdom of Crossroads that is mentioned nowhere else in the Pathfinder corpus as far as I can tell, 1E or 2E. Maybe Ionnia is one of these, but the scenario doesn't indicate it.

Ships' captains are included in the High Seas group by default. Devrin Arlos, Shimali Manux, and Stella Fane are all from the Character Guide. Arlos's crew (other than Vulmia, who is from the Character Guide) is from the Paizo Blog for the High Seas.

For the Silver Ravens, I included individuals identified as "Unique Allies" at the end of each Hell's Rebels AP volume who have the Firebrand "accepted alignments" in the Character Guide (the assumption being that others would drift away), plus Nolly Peltry from Tomorrow Must Burn, plus the Sapphire Butterfly from Legends, both of whom were noted to be members in their respective write-ups. For the Children of Westcrown, I included the individuals listed in Bastards of Erebus who have the Firebrand "accepted alignments" in the Character Guide. The Pezzacki factions were taken from Towns of the Inner Sea and the PFS scenario Out of Anarchy. Rannik Helt and Vanton Finch are both from the Character Guide, but they weren't noted to be members of any Firebrand affiliates (and Finch isn't even located anywhere in particular; I put him in Old Cheliax because people with bird-pun names tend to end up in the Silver Ravens (e.g., Korva, Jay, Maggie, Treep, Jackdaw, Crowe)).

Annsa is from Magnimar, City of Monuments. Halman Wright is from City of Strangers.

Some questions arise from the observations above, including "why aren't the Firebrands listed as active in the Mwangi Expanse despite Vidric rebels being a founding group," and "why do some groups (e.g., Bellflowers, Bright Lions, Heralds of Summer's Return) not affiliate?" These questions are closely related.

The Firebrands are probably not listed as active in the Mwangi Expanse because there was a limit of three factions per meta-region cover page in the World Guide, and the Magaambya (which must be active in the Mwangi Expanse, and is only otherwise active in the Eye of Dread) Aspis Consortium (which is only listed as active in the Mwangi Expanse and would not be listed anywhere if not there), and the Green Faith (ditto) crowded them out, but let's take it at face value. In the first place, to the extent Firebrands would be active in the Mwangi Expanse, the scope of their activity would be fairly limited. Most of the region's land is inhabited by non-state peoples. The sole territorial state is Vidrian; the remaining states (Bloodcove, Elokolobha, Free Station, Jaha, Kibwe, Mzali, Nantambu, Osibu, Senghor, and Usaro) are city-states.

Of these, Bloodcove and Senghor are on the coast and would likely be the haunts of seafaring Firebrands who could be considered as operating from the High Seas. Furthermore, Senghor is an ally of Vidrian's and to the extent the Vidric government controls Firebrand activity (probably to a large extent, as the most prominent Vidric Firebrand is an admiral in Vidrian's navy) it would want to avoid antagonizing its ally. Even though Senghor is a colony premised on the physical destruction of Boali, the cultural destruction of its people, and the political domination of the minority Caldaru.

Vidrian's government might be "exporting" its Firebrands to the High Seas by pressing them into its navy so they don't make trouble, meaning you might find many in Anthusis and Port Freedom and less so inland (and inland from Vidrian). There is some evidence of this beyond the Manuxes - in Legends Avarneus notes an "Efie" who went missing on the High Seas. The local Firebrands might be more or less willing participants in this, considering (rightly or wrongly) the battle for democracy within Vidrian to have been won with the revolution. If in Vidrian the battle for democracy can be considered won, Kibwe, Nantambu, and Osibu likely merits a similar judgment. In any event, if the government is encouraging or directing Vidric Firebrands out to sea, that leaves fewer free to travel inland, where Elokolobha, Free Station, Jaha, Mzali, and Usaro are.

The Firebrands' tolerance of showboats and braggarts likely explains why the Bright Lions (and also the Heralds of Summer's Return and the Bellflowers) have kept their distance. All three groups are determined to operate as secret insurgencies rather than political parties (neither Mzali nor Irrisen nor Cheliax has political freedom), mutual aid societies, or terrorist groups. So they lose rather than gain by publicity hounds. That said, there are definitely dual-carders among these groups. Laria Longroad, Nolly Peltry, and Rannik Helt are canon such among the Bellflowers, and I imagine Tamrin Credence is another. Xor Beninch (from Legends - the only named Bright Lion I can find with a permitted Firebrand alignment, and the spymaster in charge of the Bright Lions' foreign contacts, including with the Vidric government) could conceivably be one as well, but probably isn't since he is definitely operating in the Mwangi Expanse meta-region and isn't detailed as one despite some fairly extensive writings. CG and NG (not CN - as far as I can tell, were the Heralds to be given an alignment as a whole, it would be NG, since all its named members are NG, CG, or N) members are rather more common among the Heralds of Summer's Return, and include: Anichka Labacova (Irrisen, Land of Eternal Winter ("LoEW")), Ringeirr Malenkov (The Shackled Hut ("TSH")), Solveig Ayrdahl (TSH), Nakia Serebrynakova (LoEW), Sanzina Rodok (LoEW), Vilma Lochnik (LoEW), and Kaleena Brodovsky (LoEW). Any or all of these could be Firebrand dual-carders, and I imagine convincing the group as a whole to affiliate is a major project among the Firebrand leadership. Irrisen's relative political thaw (*heh*) under Romanova might help with that.

So the expanded list might be:

-Starstone Isle
--Tamrin Credence (3rd Mark; Pathfinder Society, Bellflower Network)
--Karisa Starsight (3rd Mark; Pathfinder Society)
-The Broken Lands
--Chops (1st Mark)
--Ionnia Valanti (2nd Mark)
--Nalla (1st Mark)
-The High Seas
--Nightwave
---Devrin Arlos (4th Mark)
---Gaspiya (2nd Mark)
---Giant (2nd Mark)
---Rikkan (2nd Mark)
---Vulmia Manux (2nd Mark)
--Umbral Spark
---Shimali Manux (4th Mark)
--Risen Albatross
---Stella Fane (4th Mark; Pathfinder Society, Free Captains)
-Old Cheliax
--Silver Ravens (4th Mark)
---Chuko
---Hetamon Haace (Rose of Kintargo)
---Jackdaw
---Jilia Bainilus
---Laria Longroad (Bellflower Network)
---Manticce Kaleekii
---Mialari Docur (Lacunafex)
---Molly Mayapple
---Nolly Peltry (Bellflower Network)
---Rexus Victocora
---Shensen
---Strea Vestori (Cloven Hoof Society)
---Vendalfek
---Vyvienne Ashurka/Sapphire Butterfly
--Pezzack Insurgents (3rd Mark)
---Habar Curl
--White Thistles (3rd Mark)
---Amalia Wraxton (4th Mark)
---Auntie
---Hazzleton Berryblack
---Kalizandrex Poppo
---Kallador Vim
---Lorrin Meese
---Madge
---Mimzy Berryblack
--Children of Westcrown (3rd Mark)
---Arael
---Janiven Key
---Amaya Kaijitsu
---Ermolos
---Rizzardo
---Tarvi
---Yakopulio
--Rannik Helt (4th Mark; Bellflower Network)
--Vanton Finch (2nd Mark)
-The Saga Lands
--Rose and Rake (3rd Mark)
---Annsa Shivarlu
--Freemen (3rd Mark)
---Halman Wright
--Anichka Labacova (3rd Mark; Heralds of Summer's Return)
--Ringeirr Malenkov (2nd Mark; Heralds of Summer's Return)
--Solveig Ayrdahl (2nd Mark; Heralds of Summer's Return)
--Nakia Serebrynakova (2nd Mark; Heralds of Summer's Return)
--Sanzina Rodok (2nd Mark; Heralds of Summer's Return)
--Vilma Lochnik (3rd Mark; Heralds of Summer's Return)
--Kaleena Brodovsky (3rd Mark; Heralds of Summer's Return)

snip

It's worth considering that the Bright Lions follow a pantheon with a seemingly Lawful bent; Chohar is LG and Luhar is LN, and even NG Tlehar has LG followers.

That said, I imagine the book will gesture at some ties between them (it's hard to imagine Mwangi Firebrands being unaware of the other big struggle for liberty in their homeland), as the Bright Lions are clearly a favorite. I'm glad to see more of them! Here's hoping we help them topple Walkena by the time this edition ends.

zimmerwald1915 wrote:

snip

It's worth considering that the Bright Lions follow a pantheon with a seemingly Lawful bent; Chohar is LG and Luhar is LN, and even NG Tlehar has LG followers. ** spoiler omitted ** It seems very likely to me that if the Old Sun Gods were to be pegged to a single alignment, it would be Lawful Good - and given their pragmatism, Firebrand braggarts and radicals must look like childish fools.

That said, I imagine the book will gesture at some ties between them (it's hard to imagine Mwangi Firebrands being unaware of the other big struggle for liberty in their homeland), as the Bright Lions are clearly a favorite. I'm glad to see more of them! Here's hoping we help them topple Walkena by the time this edition ends.

The best Firebrand allies the Bright lions could have would be from Vidrian or Ravounel. They wouldn't be any less flashy by inclination, but they would know exactly how those two revolutions went and why they succeeded. They'd probably make up for their early stealth when they time comes for big actions. And yes, please let's deal with the upstart mummy.

keftiu wrote:

zimmerwald1915 wrote:

snip

It's worth considering that the Bright Lions follow a pantheon with a seemingly Lawful bent; Chohar is LG and Luhar is LN, and even NG Tlehar has LG followers. ** spoiler omitted ** It seems very likely to me that if the Old Sun Gods were to be pegged to a single alignment, it would be Lawful Good - and given their pragmatism, Firebrand braggarts and radicals must look like childish fools.

That said, I imagine the book will gesture at some ties between them (it's hard to imagine Mwangi Firebrands being unaware of the other big struggle for liberty in their homeland), as the Bright Lions are clearly a favorite. I'm glad to see more of them! Here's hoping we help them topple Walkena by the time this edition ends.

The best Firebrand allies the Bright lions could have would be from Vidrian or Ravounel. They wouldn't be any less flashy by inclination, but they would know exactly how those two revolutions went and why they succeeded. They'd probably make up for their early stealth when they time comes for big actions. And yes, please let's deal with the upstart mummy.

I'm sure Vidrian's Vane (their espionage service) is capable of being plenty discrete. I'm less sure the Firebrands have that ability, as they're so stereotypically bombastic.

It seems very likely to me that if the Old Sun Gods were to be pegged to a single alignment, it would be Lawful Good - and given their pragmatism, Firebrand braggarts and radicals must look like childish fools.

Agreed, hence this: "The Firebrands' tolerance of showboats and braggarts likely explains why the Bright Lions. . . have kept their distance.. . . Xor Beninch (from Legends - the only named Bright Lion I can find with a permitted Firebrand alignment, and the spymaster in charge of the Bright Lions' foreign contacts, including with the Vidric government) could conceivably be [a dual-carder] as well, but probably isn't."

(Also the braggarts at least are childish fools, and the more serious radicals are fools for keeping them around. It is only for the most contrived reasons that they do. This: "I'm less sure the Firebrands have that ability, as they're so stereotypically bombastic" being that contrived reason - it's supposed to give their enemies reason to underestimate them. However, it actually does bring down their average quality.)

I'm sure Vidrian's Vane (their espionage service) is capable of being plenty discrete. I'm less sure the Firebrands have that ability, as they're so stereotypically bombastic.

On the other hand, this is like accepting aid from the OGPU rather than the Comintern. You certainly could subordinate your movement utterly and explicitly to a foreign state's security service, but why would you want to? (This is the same problem the Twilight Talons have, incidentally.)

keftiu wrote:

I'm sure Vidrian's Vane (their espionage service) is capable of being plenty discrete. I'm less sure the Firebrands have that ability, as they're so stereotypically bombastic.

On the other hand, this is like accepting aid from the OGPU rather than the Comintern. You certainly could subordinate your movement utterly and explicitly to a foreign state's security service, but why would you want to? (This is the same problem the Twilight Talons have, incidentally.)

The same reason anyone does: for access, funding, information, and training. If some Firebrand wants to get famous wiping out some Order of the Coil stragglers, I imagine the Vane would be happy to pass along their last known whereabouts - things like that. As for the Bright Lions, they’re not beating a demigod without help, which forces some compromises.

zimmerwald1915 wrote:

keftiu wrote:

I'm sure Vidrian's Vane (their espionage service) is capable of being plenty discrete. I'm less sure the Firebrands have that ability, as they're so stereotypically bombastic.

On the other hand, this is like accepting aid from the OGPU rather than the Comintern. You certainly could subordinate your movement utterly and explicitly to a foreign state's security service, but why would you want to? (This is the same problem the Twilight Talons have, incidentally.)

The same reason anyone does: for access, funding, information, and training. If some Firebrand wants to get famous wiping out some Order of the Coil stragglers, I imagine the Vane would be happy to pass along their last known whereabouts - things like that. As for the Bright Lions, they’re not beating a demigod without help, which forces some compromises.

The thing is, with the Firebrands (to say nothing of freelance adventurers, who as everyone ought to know by now are the surest and most potent allies) in play, foreign states' security services aren't the only game in town as far as help-seeking goes. Groups like the Bright Lions can shop around.

Silver Ravens?

Silver Ravens?

I believe the Lost Omens Character Guide explains the Firebrands as originally rising from cooperation between the Silver Ravens of Ravounel and the rebels of the Vidric Revolution (who overthrew former Sargava), though the name and ideals have spread much further beyond both.

Terevalis Unctio of House Mysti wrote:

Silver Ravens?

I believe the Lost Omens Character Guide explains the Firebrands as originally rising from cooperation between the Silver Ravens of Ravounel and the rebels of the Vidric Revolution (who overthrew former Sargava), though the name and ideals have spread much further beyond both.

I will have to read that again.

Terevalis Unctio of House Mysti wrote:

Silver Ravens?

I believe the Lost Omens Character Guide explains the Firebrands as originally rising from cooperation between the Silver Ravens of Ravounel and the rebels of the Vidric Revolution (who overthrew former Sargava), though the name and ideals have spread much further beyond both.

Still haven't gotten a name for the latter.

With this being ab organization book lije Knights of Last Wall will we see some 2e Hellknight lovesoon?

With this being ab organization book lije Knights of Last Wall will we see some 2e Hellknight lovesoon?

They've been doing one organization book a year, so presumably we'll see it in a year (if it's next) or two (if they do one on the post-SoT Magaambya, like that recent Luis interview suggested).

Honestly, Helloknights are *really* not to my taste, but I'll consume just about any Lost Omens book they throw my way.

Looking forward to this one. Hope to see some building upon the Pirate archetype and a bunch of stuff for my beloved Swashbuckler.

Hellknights are very much to my taste and Firebrands are very much not.

Hellknights are very much to my taste and Firebrands are very much not.

"1 but I still plan on getting this.

Oh yeah, I still want to pick it up in case it becomes pertinent later on.

I am still kind of sad that thianorganizarion has ursurped the Silver Ravens.

I am still kind of sad that thianorganizarion has ursurped the Silver Ravens.

Come again? This is like saying the Second International usurped the SPD, its "beating heart and thinking head." If anything, its the other way around - the Silver Ravens have outsized (and undeserved, given their manifest failure to carry out a radical or democratic program) influence in the Firebrands as a founding affiliate.

And now for something completely different: Sapphire Butterfly stats, please.

the Silver Ravens have outsized (and undeserved, given their manifest failure to carry out a radical or democratic program) influence in the Firebrands as a founding affiliate.

So Firebrands are just like a bunch of Twitter fellow travellers in the same movement chastising each other for insufficient praxis?

Sounds fun!.

Quote:

the Silver Ravens have outsized (and undeserved, given their manifest failure to carry out a radical or democratic program) influence in the Firebrands as a founding affiliate.

So Firebrands are just like a bunch of Twitter fellow travellers in the same movement chastising each other for insufficient praxis?

Sounds fun!.

I dunno how you inferred that from what I said, and have no way of or interest in confirming or denying.

demlin wrote:

Bit disappointed with the overall direction of the 2e LO line. Instead of focusing on useful GM campaign material, the small books mostly contain dry fluff and some situational archetypes. Then the other books focusing on players like Dark Archive get quest seeds and adventures. What's up with that?

It sounds like what you're looking for are pre-written adventures and encounters, like the short adventures featured in Dark Archive? Is that right?

I feel like Lost Omens features dozens if not hundreds of plot and adventure hooks in each volume, but those are usually one or two line things like noting that the local hunter has seen a scary and evil creature stalking the nearby woods and is afraid to venture in there until someone finds out what it is. These kind of hooks are there to get the gears turning in a GM's brain and hopefully inspire some fun encounter, adventure, or even campaign ideas. I'm guessing these aren't scratching that itch for you.

Would you (and everyone else here!) find a Lost Omen book that has more encounter maps, short adventures, and the like useful? I don't know if a book that is just adventures is the best fit for this line, but there might be a way to give it the Lost Omen spin, as it were, and make it a book that features content for players and GMs of all kinds, not just 128 pages of adventure.

I would like if neither had short adventures, as I prefer the space be used for lore and mechanics, and leave the adventures for the adventure paths. Or maybe make small companion books with the adventures if there is actually that much demand for it, although I know that may not be financially possible.

Agreed. Any adventure in a book one of my players is likely to buy is an adventure I am highly unlikely to ever run.

Paizo is promising some spoilers from this when their twitter hits 100k followers, and Luis is promising bonus spoilers if it happens before sunday!

Paizo is promising some spoilers from this when their twitter hits 100k followers, and Luis is promising bonus spoilers if it happens before sunday!

No dice, follower count is 94.3 thousand.

I'm sure we can still share some spoilers, just not as many. :)

Luis Loza wrote:

Would you (and everyone else here!) find a Lost Omen book that has more encounter maps, short adventures, and the like useful? I don't know if a book that is just adventures is the best fit for this line, but there might be a way to give it the Lost Omen spin, as it were, and make it a book that features content for players and GMs of all kinds, not just 128 pages of adventure.

I wouldn't personally like this, no. Pathfinder has hundreds of enemies and hazards I can use to build my own encounters, but the Lost Omens line is where I go for my direct injection of delicious setting lore.

I'd agree with keftiu. I enjoy the the campaign line books for lore and monsters (especially monsters). I'm not that big into little mini-adventures being plugged in, because between the APs and other materials that seems well-covered. If anything, I wish the Dark Archive book didn't have the adventures and replaced that with more specific lore and thematic monsters.

I'm sure we can still share some spoilers, just not as many. :)

One spoiler less than what you planned is technically "just not as many," right? ;-)

keftiu wrote:

Luis Loza wrote:

Would you (and everyone else here!) find a Lost Omen book that has more encounter maps, short adventures, and the like useful? I don't know if a book that is just adventures is the best fit for this line, but there might be a way to give it the Lost Omen spin, as it were, and make it a book that features content for players and GMs of all kinds, not just 128 pages of adventure.

I wouldn't personally like this, no. Pathfinder has hundreds of enemies and hazards I can use to build my own encounters, but the Lost Omens line is where I go for my direct injection of delicious setting lore.

I'd agree with keftiu. I enjoy the the campaign line books for lore and monsters (especially monsters). I'm not that big into little mini-adventures being plugged in, because between the APs and other materials that seems well-covered. If anything, I wish the Dark Archive book didn't have the adventures and replaced that with more specific lore and thematic monsters.

I agree with Keftiu AND MMCJAWA as well. I purchase lost omens books precisely for the lore.