Pathfinder Lost Omens: Firebrands

Paizo said they weren't publishing anything related to slavery. How does the book treat Cheliax, Okeno, Andoran, etc?

BTW, I appreciate Lost Omens for setting information and the context it gives to adventures and player character options (ancestries, classes etc.) Mechanics such as ancestries or backgrounds are fine, but I dislike the mini-adventures.

Also, mini-adventure should be in their own chapter, not sprinkled in with player options. Book of the Dead handled it well, Dark Archive not so much.

VerBeeker wrote:

The Expanse, Old Cheliax, The Shackles, Galt and Katapesh get larger sections detailing current activities

Do all of them involve being more or less explicit agents of state foreign policies, or only most of them?

Huh??

Paizo said they weren't publishing anything related to slavery. How does the book treat Cheliax, Okeno, Andoran, etc?

With all the grace and subtlety of Rise of Skywalker saying "Somehow Palpatine has returned".

When the ruling Pactmasters of Katapesh declared an
end to slavery in 4722, it caught most of the world by
surprise—but the Firebrands were prepared. - p. 118

Yeah, I'll bet they were surprised. Because it was an act of writer fiat that abolished it rather than flowing organically from events in the country.

So much for the "we're just not gonna mention it going forward" line we were told. I'm really glad I bought a used copy of Dark Markets before this company memory-holed it.

Paizo said they weren't publishing anything related to slavery. How does the book treat Cheliax, Okeno, Andoran, etc?

BTW, I appreciate Lost Omens for setting information and the context it gives to adventures and player character options (ancestries, classes etc.) Mechanics such as ancestries or backgrounds are fine, but I dislike the mini-adventures.

Also, mini-adventure should be in their own chapter, not sprinkled in with player options. Book of the Dead handled it well, Dark Archive not so much.

No mention of Okeno, thought Andoran is allied with the Firebrands by and large.

zimmerwald1915 wrote:

VerBeeker wrote:

The Expanse, Old Cheliax, The Shackles, Galt and Katapesh get larger sections detailing current activities

Do all of them involve being more or less explicit agents of state foreign policies, or only most of them?

Huh??

I think it's a fair question, considering the major canonical Firebrand activities mentioned up to now were acting as a freelance arm of Vidrian's intelligence service and navy, and playing footsie with Lictor Vidoc's wholesome (sic.) Hellknights.

VerBeeker wrote:

zimmerwald1915 wrote:

VerBeeker wrote:

The Expanse, Old Cheliax, The Shackles, Galt and Katapesh get larger sections detailing current activities

Do all of them involve being more or less explicit agents of state foreign policies, or only most of them?

Huh??

I think it's a fair question, considering the major canonical Firebrand activities mentioned up to now were acting as a freelance arm of Vidrian's intelligence service and navy, and playing footsie with Lictor Vidoc's wholesome (sic.) Hellknights.

Not all Firebrands are tied to Vidrian. In fact most of the ones mentioned have very little connection to Vidrian outside it being acknowledged that the Salt Breakers and Silver Raven’s began the movement.

One of the biggest factions are from Numeria.

It’s a very loose, shifting alliance with new factions joining as is their whim.

zimmerwald1915 wrote:

VerBeeker wrote:

zimmerwald1915 wrote:

VerBeeker wrote:

The Expanse, Old Cheliax, The Shackles, Galt and Katapesh get larger sections detailing current activities

Do all of them involve being more or less explicit agents of state foreign policies, or only most of them?

Huh??

I think it's a fair question, considering the major canonical Firebrand activities mentioned up to now were acting as a freelance arm of Vidrian's intelligence service and navy, and playing footsie with Lictor Vidoc's wholesome (sic.) Hellknights.

Not all Firebrands are tied to Vidrian. In fact most of the ones mentioned have very little connection to Vidrian outside it being acknowledged that the Salt Breakers and Silver Raven’s began the movement.

One of the biggest factions are from Numeria.

It’s a very loose, shifting alliance with new factions joining as is their whim.

Did the NPCs get stats, or descriptions only?

Descriptions only.

Descriptions only.

Botheration. How is one supposed to faithfully backport select characters for use in the 2015 APs (or, indeed, use them in 2E conversions of those same APs) without 2E stats?

Preview: Investing In: Firebrands from Know Direction

I'm more than a little surprised Mr. Pontious was not familiar with the Mark system, considering how centrally it's presented in the Character Guide's section on Firebrands.

Also from Know Direction, "[t]hose with four marks are famous in their region" is either an error or a retcon from the Character Guide. In the Character Guide, First Marks were self-proclaimed, Second Marks were recognized by another Firebrand, Third Marks were locally famous, and Fourth Marks were world-famous.

VerBeeker wrote:

Descriptions only.

Botheration. How is one supposed to faithfully backport select characters for use in the 2015 APs (or, indeed, use them in 2E conversions of those same APs) without 2E stats?

Very few 2e NPCs have stats. If you aren’t meant to fight and kill something, it often doesn’t get a full writeup like that.

NECR0G1ANT wrote:

Paizo said they weren't publishing anything related to slavery. How does the book treat Cheliax, Okeno, Andoran, etc?

With all the grace and subtlety of Rise of Skywalker saying "Somehow Palpatine has returned".

Quote:

When the ruling Pactmasters of Katapesh declared an
end to slavery in 4722, it caught most of the world by
surprise—but the Firebrands were prepared. - p. 118

Yeah, I'll bet they were surprised. Because it was an act of writer fiat that abolished it rather than flowing organically from events in the country.

So much for the "we're just not gonna mention it going forward" line we were told. I'm really glad I bought a used copy of Dark Markets before this company memory-holed it.

So... where were you when the LOWG mentioned four years ago that Katapesh was struggling to find local buyers for slaves? Or the year after that, when LO: Legends set up that the Shahiyan of Qadira was leading an abolitionist movement in the region's largest empire? How about last fall, when the Travel Guide already told us Katapesh had outlawed slavery?

This stuff is only coming out of left field if you aren't reading 2e books.

Very few 2e NPCs have stats. If you aren’t meant to fight and kill something, it often doesn’t get a full writeup like that.

Yes, and that's a rather significant loss of 2E in my view. Ah well.

Before giving up on dreams of fidelity altogether, though. . . how revelatory of their combat capabilities and proclivities is the NPCs' art? Shensen's portrait excerpted in the Know Direction post has her wielding her scimitar, for instance, while Passenger's only shows her standing relaxed. (I'm particularly interested here in Vyvienne, whose Legends portraits managed to cut off her right side).

So... where were you when the LOWG mentioned four years ago that Katapesh was struggling to find local buyers for slaves? Or the year after that, when LO: Legends set up that the Shahiyan of Qadira was leading an abolitionist movement in the region's largest empire? How about last fall, when the Travel Guide already told us Katapesh had outlawed slavery?

This stuff is only coming out of left field if you aren't reading 2e books.

Personally? Being annoyed at how elite-led and un-disturbing of elite power all of this was, when it could have been a social revolution - and likewise annoyed at Lost Omens's skittishness (like Pathfinder's before it) around and about social revolution generally.

Personally? Being annoyed at how elite-led and un-disturbing of elite power all of this was, when it could have been a social revolution - and likewise annoyed at Lost Omens's skittishness (like Pathfinder's before it) around and about social revolution generally.

These are imperfect, frustrating reforms so that player characters have things to crash into. Cheliax's role as The Obligatory Evil Empire of Avistan means that they're always going to be enshrined as bastards, and this is explicitly yet another act of Asmodeus-inspired LE trickery. If you're unhappy with the result, good - go run a campaign about an actual revolution in Cheliax! Paizo's not gonna publish it because they need the villain to stick around (and also, it would be too close to Hell's Rebels again).

Vidrian is where you get a proper bottom-up, solidarity-driven revolution in this setting. Galt shows you the bloodiest, most misled and self-defeating vision of the same. Ravounel wins a form of freedom through a lot of compromise, and is also where an individual table experience can and should trump the necessity of finding a canon outcome for 2e. I remain convinced that the big "on-screen" revolution story of the edition will be the Bright Lions, down in Mzali, which should absolutely come from the common local people against their own oppressors.

Golarion's not a real world, and it's not trying to be; they're aiming to hit as many genres and feels as they can. I'm sorry it's not all molded into the shape of flawless ideology... but that would be pretty boring to swing a sword around in.

Cheliax's role as The Obligatory Evil Empire of Avistan means that they're always going to be enshrined as bastards, and this is explicitly yet another act of Asmodeus-inspired LE trickery.

Developments away east and south aren't.

keftiu wrote:

Cheliax's role as The Obligatory Evil Empire of Avistan means that they're always going to be enshrined as bastards, and this is explicitly yet another act of Asmodeus-inspired LE trickery.

Developments away east and south aren't.

Katapesh, again, was about as foreshadowed as you could ask for.

Qadira, your access to Casmaron-spanning trade routes and the bottomless coffers of the Kelesh Empire, puts the kibosh on the slave trade - your largest customer is now gone. Kibwe, your trade partner to the southwest, no longer trades in slaves. Cheliax abandons the practice. I haven't seen any mention of slavery in Rahadoum or Thuvia in 2e, and it was already effectively gone outside of as a state punishment in Rahadoum.

Andoren privateers have been on a war footing with Okeno for ages now, and the Pathfinder Society has likewise been tangling with the slavers there for years. Getting your fleets burned and your markets infiltrated by daring 'heroes' makes you look like you can't protect your investments, and scares off buyers.

So who, exactly, is Katapesh meant to sell their slaves to - just Geb? Should they just accept raiding and reprisals from the north forever to protect a dying business model? The Pactmasters aren't stupid, and they aren't going to keep pumping resources into a trade they've literally watched collapse over the last ten years.

zimmerwald1915 wrote:

keftiu wrote:

Cheliax's role as The Obligatory Evil Empire of Avistan means that they're always going to be enshrined as bastards, and this is explicitly yet another act of Asmodeus-inspired LE trickery.

Developments away east and south aren't.

Katapesh, again, was about as foreshadowed as you could ask for.

Foreshadowing isn't my complaint, which again, is about how otherwise un-disturbing of power the whole thing was.

And yes, I'd expect the ruling classes of the slave powers to cling even to an obsolete and unprofitable trade unless made to do otherwise, it's what ruling classes do. Crediting reforms in Kibwe and Qadira (certainly not Andoren raiding, this never amounted to more than fleabites no matter how much the Andorens might flatter themselves about their "war footing") for the collapse of the Katapeshi slave trade only pushes the problem back: whence the reforms in Kibwe and Qadira? Nobody overthrew the government as in Vidrian or Ravounel, or tried plausibly enough to spur reform as in Cheliax, or put the government under such existential threat that it was forced to enfranchise enslaved people in exchange for their aid in its defense as in Absolom; it was purely a matter of enlightened goodwill and as such entirely too reminiscent of the self-flattery by, say, the British ruling class.

I would not call what happened in Cheliax “reform.”

Also apparently they lost Khari….and

Also as I stated before,

This reminds me of the time I was looking for a book on Norse neopaganism, multiple reviews complained the one I was looking at was "too woke" and I bought it immediately. Turned out to be a very good book.

Guess I'll find out next week. Looking forward to it.

I would not call what happened in Cheliax “reform.”

Also apparently they lost Khari….and ** spoiler omitted **

Also as I stated before, ** spoiler omitted **

Oh, wow! Canon’s been unclear on Khari - that’s fascinating.

I’m still hoping we get an Alghollthu intrigue plotline across the Golden Road as an AP someday.

Leon Aquilla wrote:

NECR0G1ANT wrote:

Paizo said they weren't publishing anything related to slavery. How does the book treat Cheliax, Okeno, Andoran, etc?

With all the grace and subtlety of Rise of Skywalker saying "Somehow Palpatine has returned".

Quote:

When the ruling Pactmasters of Katapesh declared an
end to slavery in 4722, it caught most of the world by
surprise—but the Firebrands were prepared. - p. 118

Yeah, I'll bet they were surprised. Because it was an act of writer fiat that abolished it rather than flowing organically from events in the country.

So much for the "we're just not gonna mention it going forward" line we were told. I'm really glad I bought a used copy of Dark Markets before this company memory-holed it.

So... where were you when the LOWG mentioned four years ago that Katapesh was struggling to find local buyers for slaves? Or the year after that, when LO: Legends set up that the Shahiyan of Qadira was leading an abolitionist movement in the region's largest empire? How about last fall, when the Travel Guide already told us Katapesh had outlawed slavery?

This stuff is only coming out of left field if you aren't reading 2e books.

I mean the funniest thing about the whole thing is that it wasn't even foreshadowed. Leon Aquilla is whining about Paizo not doing what he wanted them to do despite they actually did exactly what he did in this very case.

VerBeeker wrote:

I would not call what happened in Cheliax “reform.”

Also apparently they lost Khari….and ** spoiler omitted **

Also as I stated before, ** spoiler omitted **

Oh, wow! Canon’s been unclear on Khari - that’s fascinating.

I’m still hoping we get an Alghollthu intrigue plotline across the Golden Road as an AP someday.

It’s literally a throw away line, honestly, but I know this was one of the “Possibilities” in the Hell’s Vengeance AP, where one lore section was all about reactions to the Glorious Reclamation.

The Old Cheliax Map made it seem like they still had it, but apparently not.

So those of you who got the new book, what Silver Raven adjacent NPCs are in this lovely book?

Can I ask what, generally, is happening in either Numeria or Segada?

There's an entire AP book in Age of Ashes about interfering with the central slave trade in Katapesh, it isn't exactly "out of nowhere" that that industry would collapse.

So those of you who got the new book, what Silver Raven adjacent NPCs are in this lovely book?

There's an entire AP book in Age of Ashes about interfering with the central slave trade in Katapesh, it isn't exactly "out of nowhere" that that industry would collapse.

Right...you do carve out a sizable chunk of it and the Pactmasters back you doing it if you are savvy enough.

Benjamin Tait wrote:

So those of you who got the new book, what Silver Raven adjacent NPCs are in this lovely book?

** spoiler omitted **

** spoiler omitted **

** spoiler omitted **

yoooo this is the best thing Numeria ever could have gotten. awesome

** Numeria **

** Segada **

Both are awesome - thanks for the share!

Numeria has been relatively quiet across 2e stuff so far, so I'm mostly just glad to see the region get a mention at all. Here's hoping the Circuit Breakers can enjoy the spotlight soon!

Again we see the notion of "the interior" beyond Segada, also mentioned on an upcoming PFS scenario's store page, which paints an interesting portrait of the area between that coastal city and the easternmost bit of the Deadshot Lands.

Wouldn't that be a pretty big area? The Deadshot Lands seem to be roughly 1500 miles west of Segada based on the map that was created here a few months ago.

Thank you for sharing. I was curious about how slavery/aboltionism would be handled going forwards.

Do Galt or Geb get mentions?

Benjamin Tait wrote:

So those of you who got the new book, what Silver Raven adjacent NPCs are in this lovely book?

Silver Raven Spoilers

Uhhh.... You didn't hear about that?

Thank you for sharing. I was curious about how slavery/aboltionism would be handled going forwards.

Do Galt or Geb get mentions?

Geb a few times, Galt is one of the areas discussed with more attention.

I heard there are some new skill feats, specifically for Intimidation. Are any of those allowed to be shared before the reference sites upload them?

I find zimmerwald's complaining about lack of revolutions funny when I keep hearing someone else complaining about how almost all AP villains are some form of ancient evil/other old people trying to cling to old world and we don't have cool visionary villains who are trying to change things for their world view :'D

Well…I undersold the Katapesh stuff a little bit by accident it seems.

Well…I undersold the Katapesh stuff a little bit by accident it seems.

** spoiler omitted **

Fascinating. Here's hoping we get to play it out, and that the playable scenario resolves progressively for once.

(As in, in a later-published adventure or set of adventures. Not in this book, obviously.)

** spoiler omitted **

Re: Segada, did Degasi or some other Protocol power finally retake Anchor's End?

Do we really need 20 pages on Gods in every single org-splat???

Yes. Its literally one of the most useful sections of the org books and is broadly applicable beyond just that organization. They are the best, I love them, please keep putting them in.

On that note though, did we get any new pantheons?

Are there any Night of the Gray Death spoilers for Galt?

Zimmer: No.

Dabus: Yes.

Necro: Yes.

Crediting reforms in Kibwe and Qadira (certainly not Andoren raiding, this never amounted to more than fleabites no matter how much the Andorens might flatter themselves about their "war footing") for the collapse of the Katapeshi slave trade only pushes the problem back: whence the reforms in Kibwe and Qadira?

The Hell's Vengeance book 5 article about the consequences of the Glorious Reclamation are seemingly in a state of flux with regards to its place in the canon, but having read it again recently that article does state that Andoran has done a great deal more than fleabites:

In its efforts to contain the spread of the Glorious Reclamation, the Chelish military command recalls all ships to defend its southern port cities, leaving most of its slaving fleet unprotected. The Gray Corsairs of Andoran (see Andoran on page 63) quickly take advantage of this opportunity and step up their attacks on Chelish slave ships, capturing nearly a hundred and setting free thousands of men, women, and children. In desperation, House Thrune attempts to forge an alliance with the other major slave trading centers of the Inner Sea (most notably the Bekyar of the Mwangi Expanse, the Katapeshi of Okeno, and the Kelesh slavers of Qadira), but they reject Cheliax’s offer, unwilling to send their own ship against the deadly Gray Corsairs.

If House Thrune wins, it slowly begins rebuilding its slaving fleet over the next few years but continues losing ships to the Gray Corsairs and never again reaches the numbers it had before the rebellion.

Seizing ~100 ships, and preventing Cheliax from ever reaching the height of the slave trade it had previously participated in feels like more than fleabites, to me. It's also another example for this thread of how the ongoing downfall of slavery in the Inner Sea has been ongoing for a long part of the setting's history at this point - that article is from 7 years ago, about halfway through the Lost Omens setting's total lifespan to-date.

Seizing ~100 ships, and preventing Cheliax from ever reaching the height of the slave trade it had previously participated in feels like more than fleabites, to me. It's also another example for this thread of how the ongoing downfall of slavery in the Inner Sea has been ongoing for a long part of the setting's history at this point - that article is from 7 years ago, about halfway through the Lost Omens setting's total lifespan to-date.

First, while Chelish middlemen might or might not have dominated the eastern Inner Sea market to begin with (I suspect not, the local powers should have been more than able to compete even without subsidizing their own merchants just on food costs alone), seizures of Chelish merchantmen are not the same thing as seizures of Katapeshi or Qadiran merchantmen. If anything, their being swept from the seas reduces competition for the latter and should produce windfall profits. Second, a hundred merchant vessels isn't actually that many. That amounts to about two fair-sized turn-of-the-seventeenth-century Spanish Atlantic convoys, or for an in-universe example, about two-and-a-half times the size of the armada (that is to say, the naval fleet, consisting of larger, more sophisticated and more expensive ships) that got sunk off the Eye of Abendego in 4712.

Arcaian wrote:

Seizing ~100 ships, and preventing Cheliax from ever reaching the height of the slave trade it had previously participated in feels like more than fleabites, to me. It's also another example for this thread of how the ongoing downfall of slavery in the Inner Sea has been ongoing for a long part of the setting's history at this point - that article is from 7 years ago, about halfway through the Lost Omens setting's total lifespan to-date.

First, while Chelish middlemen might or might not have dominated the eastern Inner Sea market to begin with (I suspect not, the local powers should have been more than able to compete even without subsidizing their own merchants just on food costs alone), seizures of Chelish merchantmen are not the same thing as seizures of Katapeshi or Qadiran merchantmen. If anything, their being swept from the seas reduces competition for the latter and should produce windfall profits. Second, a hundred merchant vessels isn't actually that many. That amounts to about two fair-sized turn-of-the-seventeenth-century Spanish Atlantic convoys, or for an in-universe example, about two-and-a-half times the size of the armada (that is to say, the naval fleet, consisting of larger, more sophisticated and more expensive ships) that got sunk off the Eye of Abendego in 4712.

To be entirely honest, I am unfamiliar with the scale of merchant vessels in the slave trade for an IRL time period comparable to Cheliax's, but I don't think whether or not 100 ships would've significantly changed the slave trade in that time period is relevant. The Lost Omens setting isn't trying to go for a 1:1 recreation of reality, and when they say that it "never again reaches the numbers it had before the rebellion", that has a meaning to it. In the Lost Omens setting, that loss of ~100 slaving vessels was significant enough to Cheliax's slavery that it permanently affects the slave trade. If one is big into the worldbuilding, one can come up with ways for that to make sense, but I'm personally happy to just accept that the narrative being told here is that the Grey Corsairs took advantage of Chelish instability to significantly reduce Cheliax's abilities to engage in the slave trade.

I find zimmerwald's complaining about lack of revolutions funny when I keep hearing someone else complaining about how almost all AP villains are some form of ancient evil/other old people trying to cling to old world and we don't have cool visionary villains who are trying to change things for their world view :'D

One person's hero can be another's BBEG.

I have my copy. It's a great book, answering a number of the questions I've had about the organization. The art remains great, and there's one particular piece I would like to highlight.

I am pleazently surprised by how much Iam enjoying what I have seen so far, being a big fan of the Solver Ravens and not so m7ch of the Firebrands. I like the deity write ups and the tiger man art, very Thundera vibe to me and I like it!

Karthival's art is giving me big "Rose from Titanic (You Know The Shot)" vibes.

big floosh face

I have my copy. It's a great book, answering a number of the questions I've had about the organization. The art remains great, and there's one particular piece I would like to highlight.

** spoiler omitted **

Which book was that first scene at?

The art is spot on!