Pathfinder Adventure Path #103: The Hellfire Compact (Hell's Vengeance 1 of 6) (PFRPG)

Abby Thrune, Despot wrote:

And a puppy to kick :-)

I've confirmed elsewhere that there are puppies in this adventure...

And you'd do well to more than kick them, villain.

I think I know where you're going with this..

I've got Way of the Wicked, but am nevertheless curious about Hell's Vengeance.

I think the difference is the Rags to Riches style of Way of the Wicked, and I assume Hell's Vengeance will operate similar to typical APs, with the players being low tier, but not downtrodden, and allowed to be evil, rather then needing to hide it.

I was going to say that. WoTW is about an elaborate plan of revenge involving murder, deceit, and rebellion in order to change the status quo. Hell's Vengeance is about working for the people in charge and preserving the status quo.

Or rather, WoTW is about causing regime change and Hell's Vengeance is about trying to stop it.

The fact remains that in Evil parties the players spend more time thinking of ways to screw each other rather than working to complete the adventure...

Maybe in your experience. Most certainly not in mine.

The fact opinionremains that in Evil parties the players spend more time thinking of ways to screw each other rather than working to complete the adventure...

I have run several evil campaigns, a few morally ambigous campaigns and many good campaigns. The only time I have seen players trying to screw over other players were when well developed charcter driven conflicts had developed and were understood by both players or when one player was an a!&~$&! and that causes problems whatever alignment they have written on their character sheets (oh and Paranoia games but thats the point of them)

This looks interesting and given sensible players will be fun, the sort of players which should not be a problem (except for the examples of all the threads about bad GM's and players)

The fact remains that in Evil parties the players spend more time thinking of ways to screw each other rather than working to complete the adventure...

That may be your experience, but that doesn't make it a universal fact.

For instance, two of my best eperiences as a gamer (one on each side of the screen) have included evil characters. That does not make it fact. It's just my experience.

An evil campaign has been requested by a segment of the fanbase for a while now, and the 3PP adventure path Way of the Wicked (one of the aforementioned awesome experiences) is, in my opinion, an excellent example of an evil-focused campaign done well.

Does that mean it's for everyone? Absolutely not. There are many gamers out there who will do exactly what you fear will happen. But there's also a lot of gamers out there who *can* play an evil campaign in a mature and fun way.

My advice to everyone here? Give it time; wait and see what Paizo has in mind. I guarantee that they've thought through all the classic pitfalls of the "evil campaign". ^_^

My guess is that the Player's Guide will say, "Just because you're evil doesn't mean you can't be a team player".

Once upon a time i run a evil campain called The Necrocampaing. Where all the players made evil characters that were members of a evil cabal of necromancers. They killed innocent children for necromantic rituals and thought themselves as big bad villains.
The king blamed them for everything bad in the kingdom, had they done it or not as they were the perfect spacegoats. Eventually they discovered that they only existed because if the paladin inquisition were not busy chasing necromantic cabals, the nobles schemes to live in opulence at the common folk expenses would be exposed. Soon they chased someway to clear the name of necromacy so they could be local evils in peace. But real life TPked this campaing, it was fun.

I'm maintaining my Sub through this AP(for the sake of completeness )but doubt I'll even open them....

This seems like a really odd statement to me...

[...] spacegoats [...]

I'd like to have some of those, too!

Sorry, couldn't resist. Carry on.

Ruyan.

Draco Bahamut wrote:

[...] spacegoats [...]

I'd like to have some of those, too!

Those were pretty much all I ever played back in my WoW days.

Will this game and bestiary offer insight into the Malebranche? The archdevil rulers? Just wondering for playing my zealous characters.

We played kingmaker with a mostly LE party and it was the best AP we have played
Most of the Shattered Star party were NE and what we did of it was fine
Playing emerald with an LE party and that works very well

It the CN players that are always the worst

It's an rpg , a social event, a game for all to enjoy. Anyone who says "but that's what my character would do", should think again

Will this game and bestiary offer insight into the Malebranche? The archdevil rulers? Just wondering for playing my zealous characters.

I believe this is what you're looking for.

Announced! Product image and description are not final and subject to change.

A Paladin in a plate mail bikini and a hand-scrawled 1990's-style campaign logo? I sure do hope it's subject to change. ;o)

HV has been suggested as a possible choice for our next game, starting early 2016. Personally, I'm not too happy with the evil vibe — WotW started out fun, but turned sickening quickly enough to my taste. I guess I just don't have the heart for it. :Þ But let's see, maybe HV is different enough to work for me.

Any chance we might get a Player's Guide before the first book comes out?

Cover image and description updated to final.

Lazzero's mace is too cool!

That cover is nine levels of awesome! :D

HOLY!....Wayne is doing these covers as well ??? That's AWESOME !

We played kingmaker with a mostly LE party and it was the best AP we have played

Most of the Shattered Star party were NE and what we did of it was fine
Playing emerald with an LE party and that works very well

It the CN players that are always the worst

It's an rpg , a social event, a game for all to enjoy. Anyone who says "but that's what my character would do", should think again

It really DOES vary from table to table, in my experience. For me, lawful good has been the alignment that has caused the most disruption at the game table and the most party conflict.

thenovalord wrote:

We played kingmaker with a mostly LE party and it was the best AP we have played

Most of the Shattered Star party were NE and what we did of it was fine
Playing emerald with an LE party and that works very well

It the CN players that are always the worst

It's an rpg , a social event, a game for all to enjoy. Anyone who says "but that's what my character would do", should think again

It really DOES vary from table to table, in my experience. For me, lawful good has been the alignment that has caused the most disruption at the game table and the most party conflict.

*waves hands in the air*

Testify! :D

I know it sounds stupid, but I'm actually looking forward to seeing the overview of the Glorious Reclamation. This is the first evil campaign Paizo has done, not counting the We Be Goblins series, so I'd love to see how they handle a group of good-aligned "bad guys".

I know it sounds stupid, but I'm actually looking forward to seeing the overview of the Glorious Reclamation. This is the first evil campaign Paizo has done, not counting the We Be Goblins series, so I'd love to see how they handle a group of good-aligned "bad guys".

It doesn't sound stupid at all, I think. I'm very excited to get more information about the Glorious Reclamation, and the premise that Paizo has set up in Hell's Vengeance feels compelling to me.

I'm seriously confused by people who seem to be repulsed by this. I mean, seriously, its just a game, you can read it through and steal interesting stuff from it even if you aren't going to run it :P

Indeed Corvus. It's entertaining to see how an "Evil" campaign will be done, and hopefully it will be well-written (I have high hopes, considering most of the writers are not the "big-name" ones and will therefore have new views and opinions).

That being said, it's a little unnerving with James Jacobs' new revelation regarding the "most disruptive alignment". Is this why Erastil ended up so conflicted until he was rewritten? Why Iomedae is very shall we say "uppity" in Wrath of the Righteous' 5th installment? To me, the worse alignment is, and always will be, "whatever alignment the worst player in the group is playing". Sometimes that means the jerkwad "take no prisoners, let God sort them out" LG Paladin or Fighter. Other times it's the plucky "comic relief" CG rogue that steals from the rest of the party and always goes alone to pick fights with the LN city guards, then complains when it gets their character gets systematically beaten, jailed, and executed.

Really, it's all a matter of opinion. I like the idea of an evil-themed campaign just as much as a good, lawful, or chaotic one. As long as it's well-written, I'll enjoy it.

As I understand it, the Erastil thing was due to lack of communication between Mr. Jacobs (who created Erastil and imported him from his own world) and Sean K. Reynolds (who wrote the deity articles at that time). Once Mr. Jacobs learned of it, he did his best to set it straight. (Same with paladins of Asmodeus, but without the origin story.)

The Iomedae thing, I think, was conceived for the "worst player" you described - the guy who's like "I'mma spit in Iomedae's face - what's she gonna do?" How it turned out is a matter of public record.

That being said, it's a little unnerving with James Jacobs' new revelation regarding the "most disruptive alignment". Is this why Erastil ended up so conflicted until he was rewritten? Why Iomedae is very shall we say "uppity" in Wrath of the Righteous' 5th installment?

I understood James Jacobs' words not as a revelation in any official-Paizo-manner, but rather as an opinion based on personal experiences. It hardly equates to Paizo necessarily designing deities (or any other being for that matter) to represent the horror stories of X alignment.

To me, the worse alignment is, and always will be, "whatever alignment the worst player in the group is playing". Sometimes that means the jerkwad "take no prisoners, let God sort them out" LG Paladin or Fighter. Other times it's the plucky "comic relief" CG rogue that steals from the rest of the party and always goes alone to pick fights with the LN city guards, then complains when it gets their character gets systematically beaten, jailed, and executed.

I don't think you'll hear many arguments to the contrary. For some, Lawful Good is the alignment most often played poorly, for others Evil alignments, for others still the Neutral spectrum.

For James Jacobs, it seems, Lawful Good is more likely to be disruptive than other alignments.

I'm seriously confused by people who seem to be repulsed by this. I mean, seriously, its just a game, you can read it through and steal interesting stuff from it even if you aren't going to run it :P

As an example of this, the adventure path appears to be focused somewhat on the Glorious Reclamation. Lots of lore about this event to loot from the pages of Hell's Vengeance, I imagine, including NPCs, timelines, and other fluff.

In addition, I get the impression that there'll be more information on Cheliax in the adventure path by virtue of much of the action taking place there, and that's something alot of GMs can use in their non-Evil campaigns.

That being said, it's a little unnerving with James Jacobs' new revelation regarding the "most disruptive alignment". Is this why Erastil ended up so conflicted until he was rewritten? Why Iomedae is very shall we say "uppity" in Wrath of the Righteous' 5th installment? To me, the worse alignment is, and always will be, "whatever alignment the worst player in the group is playing". Sometimes that means the jerkwad "take no prisoners, let God sort them out" LG Paladin or Fighter. Other times it's the plucky "comic relief" CG rogue that steals from the rest of the party and always goes alone to pick fights with the LN city guards, then complains when it gets their character gets systematically beaten, jailed, and executed.

Really, it's all a matter of opinion. I like the idea of an evil-themed campaign just as much as a good, lawful, or chaotic one. As long as it's well-written, I'll enjoy it.

No... the complications with Erastil occurred because Sean Reynolds added some unnecessary elements to the deity that conflicted with part of what Erastil was all about; had nothing to do with the fact that Erastil is lawful good, and more to do with a combination of miscommunication from me as to how Erastil functioned (he was one of several deities exported from my homebrew into Pathfinder's setting) and some of Sean's design philosophies that didn't exactly mesh with Paizo's, so that the end result clashed with the intent in one way.

And Iomedae is "uppity" in Wrath because that's how Wolfgang Baur wanted to portray her and due to a focus more on how she reacts to bad PCs and not good/respectful ones—I actually toned down her attitude in the adventure path (but obviously should have toned it down a lot more).

Your complaints about Erastil and Iomedae, in other words, are not because of influences I put on them, but because I didn't influence them enough.

My comments about lawful good being disruptive are my own opinion, based on my past 30 some years of playing the game and seeing a WIDE range of players approach the alignment (almost ALWAYS as paladins) who used the alignment and the paladin code to disrupt play if they were the ones play the paladin, or to try to ruin/disrupt the paladin player if they were not the ones playing the paladin. Has nothing to do with Iomedae or Erastil.

ALL THAT SAID: Folks who seem to be worried that I hate Lawful Good and want to perhaps ruin this AP in some way with my (imagined) anti LG agenda can take solace in the fact that I'm not really involved in this AP at all. I did Hell's Rebels, and am not doing much work on Hell's Vengeance at all. Rob McCreary's the one running this AP.

Can I ask what you're involvement is towards Stranger Aeons then Mister Jacobs?

Can I ask what you're involvement is towards Stranger Aeons then Mister Jacobs?

I wrote the outline and am advising Adam Daigle on the adventure development (but HE'S the one doing the actual development on this one).

I'm not writing any of the adventures, but I am designing 15 or so of the new monsters that'll show up in the bestiaries, along with four articles (one of which is double-sized) for the backmatter.

Okay I was just curious Mister Jacobs. Thank you for that insight.

The Iomedae thing, I think, was conceived for the "worst player" you described - the guy who's like "I'mma spit in Iomedae's face - what's she gonna do?" How it turned out is a matter of public record.

It really did seem that way, no matter how I go back and read it. Otherwise reasonable people suddenly demanding Iomedae be reduced to a super-humble, apologising, timid little girl, because their big-bad mythic characters entered the scene.

There was only one area where I could make out a chance for a misunderstanding, that could prick the egos of the party, but I still think everyone was imagining Iomedae as their equal, not their superior.

Paizo did a fine job James, and the Adventure Paths shouldn't have to be designed around appeasing the problematic mindset players at our tables. Thats the GMs job should he or she so choose.

Ever since the end of the Chelish Civil War in 4640 ar,

the thrice-damned House Thrune has, with the aid of the
church of Asmodeus, controlled the empire of Cheliax
without fail. But in the current year, a series of events
finally challenges that rule, starting with the recovery
of an Iomedaean artifact by the Hellknight Order of
the Godclaw. An expatriate of Cheliax and paladin of
Iomedae, herself eager to reclaim her family’s name,
rounds up an army of crusaders and marches on Citadel
Dinyar, the Order of the Godclaw’s home, and soundly
defeats the Hellknights to reclaim the potent holy
artifact. The call of the Glorious Reclamation spreads
like wildfire through southern and eastern Cheliax, and
House Thrune is quick to react by sending trusted agents
out to place the empire’s greatest cities under martial law.
Hell’s Rebels does not tell the story of the conflict
between the Glorious Reclamation and House Thrune—
that tale will be told in the next Adventure Path, Hell’s
Vengeance (see the “What Hell’s Rebels Is Not!” sidebar
on page 4 for more information).

I'm interested to see what the artifact is and what role it plays in the campaign, and who this paladin lady is. I assume that she's the final boss?

The theory of one of my players (which I find quite compelling as well) is that it's this.

That's assuming it's not some newly created item, of course... but I'm kind of hoping it's this one. ^_^

The theory of one of my players (which I find quite compelling as well) is that it's this.

That's assuming it's not some newly created item, of course... but I'm kind of hoping it's this one. ^_^

That would rather cool, I think.

WANT

I am looking forward to an Iobarian or Galt campaign someday but THIS is awesome!

Never got a chance to play WotW but i nonetheless own them and i look forward to adding these gems to my collection. Oh yes. :3 keep them coming paizo!

It's entertaining to see how an "Evil" campaign will be done, and hopefully it will be well-written (I have high hopes, considering most of the writers are not the "big-name" ones and will therefore have new views and opinions).

I'm trying to embiggen my name! :-)

This should be alot of fun to DM. Iron Gods+ should be wrapping up about springtime.

My table got a little side tracked in Iron Gods, i ended up letting them step into The Frozen Stars and then came back to The Valley of the Brain Collectors. Also with kingdom building, they are about ready to start to rally some allied forces and launch an all out attack on starfall with their armies..

I will get a kick out of DMing as good guys.. and there are mature enough to handle an evil AP.. I ran an evil campaign for a year for most of the same crew.

Thanks for letting us DM's be the Good guys for a change.

Evelyn Jones wrote:

It's entertaining to see how an "Evil" campaign will be done, and hopefully it will be well-written (I have high hopes, considering most of the writers are not the "big-name" ones and will therefore have new views and opinions).

I'm trying to embiggen my name! :-)

A perfectly cromulent goal.

thenovalord wrote:

We played kingmaker with a mostly LE party and it was the best AP we have played

Most of the Shattered Star party were NE and what we did of it was fine
Playing emerald with an LE party and that works very well

It the CN players that are always the worst

It's an rpg , a social event, a game for all to enjoy. Anyone who says "but that's what my character would do", should think again

It really DOES vary from table to table, in my experience. For me, lawful good has been the alignment that has caused the most disruption at the game table and the most party conflict.

Actually lawful good to me seems to be least disruptive in my experience.

Evil aligned parties in my experience tend to fall apart.

That's probably because we don't want to play evil (well that's for me!)

I'm going to try and play an evil character when this comes out. Thinking of playing lawful evil draconic bloodline sorceress who thinks dragons are the best thing since sliced beard...and scantily clad clothing...and fire magic...and you get the idea.

Another one of the Things That Axial Looks Forward To, I'm actually excited to meet this "A paladin of Iomedae and knight-errant of the Glorious Reclamation". What's his story, what level is he set at, and what resources does he manage to muster after he's "inspiring the citizens to join the uprising"?

Smite Evil is nasty, so don't be surprised if this guy racks up a body count and numerous salty "Smited to death by the boss of volume one" posts appear in the AP board.

Lawful good has probably been the most disruptive alignment in our games over the last thirty years...seconded by immature interpretations of any "chaotic" alignment...

A good guideline is that the most disruptive alignment in a group is either:-
1) The one played by the trouble-making player who wants to be a pain(or is just incapable of getting on with a group)
2) The Alignment recommended against by the GM which does not fit the morality of the campaign , usually associated with a character totally inappropriate to the campaign
3)The Alignment most different from the majority of the party (Lone evil in a good party, lone good in an evil party) although I have seen many games were this has worked excellently

A good guideline is that the most disruptive alignment in a group is either:-

1) The one played by the trouble-making player who wants to be a pain(or is just incapable of getting on with a group)
2) The Alignment recommended against by the GM which does not fit the morality of the campaign , usually associated with a character totally inappropriate to the campaign
3)The Alignment most different from the majority of the party (Lone evil in a good party, lone good in an evil party) although I have seen many games were this has worked excellently

which is why balance is so important, lone good or evil tend to change the party alignment in their general direction unless they don't force it on the others. Agents of evil actually covers this point. provided the players don't act in a stupid fashion (don't be a stupid evil, chaotic stupid, or lawful stupid).

Another one of the Things That Axial Looks Forward To, I'm actually excited to meet this "A paladin of Iomedae and knight-errant of the Glorious Reclamation". What's his story, what level is he set at, and what resources does he manage to muster after he's "inspiring the citizens to join the uprising"?

Smite Evil is nasty, so don't be surprised if this guy racks up a body count and numerous salty "Smited to death by the boss of volume one" posts appear in the AP board.

If Smiting is getting you down, try getting back at them with agents of evil's Smiting reversal. if the foe attempts to smite you, inflict and Attack of Opportunity on them with all the bonuses they just got on you. And you don't even need to be an antipaladin to pull this off. all you need is power attack and toughness and you can become a counter smiter in no time.

Thoughts of My Insinuator Antipaladin-Gwyndolin Thistlebrook

The days have not been kind to mercenaries like myself. Most work falls through my fingers and its a chore to simply find enough work and opertunities with the over abundance of 'noble and pure hearted adventures'. Though an opportunity for some real work has presented itself. The empire of cheilex is in an upheaval and they need some mercenaries like me to keep the people in line. I here rumours that this is connected to the 'glorious reclaimation', more golden hearted fools that believe that their accended paladin god will protect them from the might of Thrune. I'll help stomp on this little rebellion. Maybe even claim some territory for myself while I'm at it.

CAN'T THIS BLOODY CART MOVE ANY FASTER...!!!

Will this AP have interactive maps with it or will they have to be gotten separately? First time ordering via subscription, and getting PDF version from you guys. Curious because I do use VTTs for my game. I normally get them used well after they come out on amazon and scan the maps out of the books. it would be nice to have easy way of removing all icons.

Will this AP have interactive maps with it or will they have to be gotten separately? First time ordering via subscription, and getting PDF version from you guys. Curious because I do use VTTs for my game. I normally get them used well after they come out on amazon and scan the maps out of the books. it would be nice to have easy way of removing all icons.

Interactive maps come with each Adventure Path volume (starting with Carrion Crown). You'll get them with the PDF as part of your subscription :)

kewl that will help out tons.