Pathfinder Roleplaying Game: Occult Adventures (OGL)

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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game: Occult Adventures (OGL)
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There is an unseen world all around you. On the streets and in the halls of power, in your dreams and across the bizarre planes of the multiverse, there are those who walk among us like giants among ants, twisting reality to their wills in their search for ancient knowledge. Now pull back the curtain of the mundane world and learn the secrets of these occult masters—if you dare!

Pathfinder RPG Occult Adventures is an indispensable companion to the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook. This imaginative tabletop game builds upon over 15 years of system development and an Open Playtest featuring more than 50,000 gamers to create a cutting-edge RPG experience that brings the all-time best-selling set of fantasy rules into a new era.

Pathfinder RPG Occult Adventures includes:

  • Six new occult base classes—the energy-shaping kineticist, the spirit-calling medium, the deceptive mesmerist, the mind-bending psychic, the uncanny occultist, and the phantom-binding spiritualist.
  • Archetypes for all of the new classes, as well as a broad selection of strange and mysterious archetypes and class options for existing characters.
  • New feats to flesh out your occult character, plus a whole new way to use existing skills to become a master of faith healing, hypnotism, psychometry, and more!
  • More than 100 spells using the all-new psychic magic system, plus rituals that grant even non-spellcasting characters occult power! Explore worlds beyond imagining with dream voyage, or defend yourself from mental threats with tower of iron will!
  • Rules and advice to help you steep your game in the occult, from chakras and deadly mindscapes to possession, psychic duels, and the Esoteric Planes.
  • A wide variety of new magic items, such as the eerie spirit mirror and the peculiar tin cap, plus new cursed items and powerful artifacts.
  • ... and much, much more!

ISBN-13: 978-1-60125-762-8

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An Endzeitgeist.com review

5/5

This massive hardcover clocks in at a whopping 271 pages, though 1 page inside of front cover, 1 page editorial, 1 page ToC and 1/3rd of a page decrease that down to 267 2/3 pages of content, so let's take a look!

Well, before we do, let me deal with the confusion for a second that this review undoubtedly will cause. Yes, I usually only do 3pp material. This has several reasons: For one, I want to showcase the fringe of gaming, the evocative books that push the envelope. Secondly, I'm not particularly affluent, to say the least and want to reward the publishers that do send me their books. Well, I obviously *HAVE* to get the Paizo books anyways, but for the most part nowadays, that means pdf or waiting until they're open sourced - I just can't afford them all. Then again, I do have a policy of covering all books I receive...and I got this book on gencon.

That would be the justification I provide from an intellectual point of view. There is another reason. I *WANT* to write this review and, since I have the hardcover now, have absolutely no reason not to.

Now usually, I provide the respective breakdowns of classes and crunch, but frankly, there are whole guides devoted to that out there, which is why I have elected to pursue a different path this time around. (Different path...that'll be a leitmotif, as you'll see...) In order to properly be able to contextualize my take on this book, I will have to embark on a little recap of Paizo's hardcovers and my history with them, so if you're not interested in that, please skip ahead.

When I got my hands on the core rules hardcover for Pathfinder, I was generally positively surprised - it represents a tightening of 3.X's engine and some sensible, smart tweaks to the mechanics. Still, it didn't manage to elicit cheers or particular excitement at my table - that only came with the APG. The Advanced Player's Guide, in spite of its minor flaws, would represent, at least to me, the truly identity-constituting moment of Pathfinder. It is here, with the alchemist, witch, oracle, etc. that the game set out to truly distinguish itself from its roots and transcend basically anything 3.X ever offered. To this day, the APG classes rank among the favorites at my table, which only bespeaks their staying power and coolness. Next up were Ultimate Magic and Combat and with them, alas, came the power creep.

While, much like many out there, I did enjoy the magus, not much else from Ultimate Magic sees regular use in my games and I went through the book with a fine-toothed comb and ban-hammered/restricted material. Ultimate Combat is a more complex story - on one hand, I did like the new classes and e.g. the emphasis on the narrative aspect the gunslinger entailed; alas, for said class, player agenda suffered and mathematically, it would have been served better with a slightly different chassis. So while I like what it represents and quite a few pieces of UC's options, many aren't used in my games. Mythic Adventures is peculiar - I like mythic gameplay, but only when supported by the ton of Legendary Games material I own - I tried running vanilla WotR and it was PCs curbstomping through everything. Still, I do like this book - just not as a stand-alone. I adore Ultimate Campaign. Its downtime and kingdom building make sense to me, are used a lot at my table and story feats are a good idea as well - there's nothing I don't like about that book and what it has brought to my table.

Well, and the less I say about the ARG and ACG, the better. My stance on both books is well known. (Hint: To say I don't like them would be a gross understatement.)

Fast forward to Occult Adventures. For one, this book's class design represents an organic development that benefits the game. An easy way to look at a class would be to examine it regarding player agenda and character agenda. Character agenda, in this instance, would pertain the ability to contribute meaningfully to various situations. It's why I think that skill unlocks are a good idea and 2 + Int skills for all but Int-based casters, generally, is not a good idea. It's just not as fun to play a fighter who can only kill things and excels at one non-combat thing...unless, of course, that's how you roll, but in general, I have observed players gravitate to classes that provide more skill-use and versatility. Player agenda would be just as important: Can the player make meaningful choices that alter the playstyle? The higher the player agenda is, the more rules-knowledge is required; true. But at the same time, it does help immensely in the long run to generate a unique being from a mechanics point of view - if you don't get to choose, you'll sooner, rather than later, run into a character on distinguished from you by his skills, equipment and feats. Pathfinder, as a system, has covered the base classes for a while; it has advanced players that demand unique concepts. As such and at this point in the system's life, the occult classes with their plethora of meaningful choices are very much appreciated - and if you need some proof of players loving choices, look no further than the modularity of the "Talented" classes invented by Owen K.C. Stephens.

Speaking of classes - let us talk a bit about them and begin with the least "occult" class herein and the most popular one. That would, obviously, be the kineticist...and while I kinda like Avatar, I'm not a rabid fan of this franchise, though I get its appeal. This does not change the fact that the class, as presented, is very niche in focus. Then again, thankfully the 3pp-circuit has since expanded the kineticist's appeal far beyond its thematic confines. (A cheers to N. Jolly for that, even if I don't always agree with all balancing...) So, flavor-wise and regarding base-options, I am not the biggest fan of this class...but at the same time, I absolutely ADORE it. Why? Because it is an engine that would be daring for a small publisher, much more so for Paizo as the industry leader. The rules-engine employed by the kineticist is inspiring and complex and its success is well warranted. Were I to nitpick this class, then my complaints would pertain the fact that its power-curve could be a little better distributed; 17th level plus in particular can be an issue...but that extends to more than just this class and is, to an extent, system-inherent. That being said, I still love this class, though for completely different reasons than probably 99% of its fans and players. It remains a great addition to the class roster and I'm glad it exists.

Now, let us talk a bit about the classes that are designated as occult not only by inclusion in the book, but also by their themes...but for that, we need to talk a bit about genre conventions. It is a general truism that Pathfinder, as a game, is indebted by proxy of D&D to Tolkienesque fantasy and a society structured very much akin to the Early Modern period in history due to the advances of magic. Kobold Press' Midgard is closer to the beginning of the Early Modern period and features a more feudal, medieval flair. Golarion and Pathfinder's default, due to the influences of the weird that made me enjoy the setting in the first place, can be roughly situated at the end of the Early Modern period, with overlaps with the Edwardian and Victorian age - once China Miéville (one of my favorite authors - read the Bas-Lag books!!!)-like aesthetics come into play, you're definitely looking at a society that is bordering a magical industrial revolution. This suits me well, for I come from a Ravenloft background (don't ever get me started on 4th and 5th edition Ravenloft and what I think of those...for all of our sakes...) as such, have always been in love with the fantastic aesthetics of Penny Dreadfuls, early weird fiction, Sword & Sorcery, Sword & Planet...you get the idea. I enjoy these somewhat less standardized, less covered aspects that have been an organic part of the old school aesthetic back in the day, but fell by the wayside somewhere along the lines. Anyways, the classes herein very much support this slightly advanced aesthetic; they resonate well with both the ancient and the more modern themes evoked in their resurgence in aforementioned timeframes. The more subtle magic psychic magic represents and the emotional component inherent in the variant spell system works well in the context of more magic-hostile environments as well as in less fantastic settings with more subdued themes than all out fireball-slinging. The marriage of the aesthetics associated with occultism and their relevant mechanical representations are what makes the classes interesting for me.

Take the medium - while I prefer spirits with names and unique identities, the need to offer the general mechanical framework for the defining spirits of the medium is obvious for such a book and in this context, employing the nomenclature of the mythic paths does make sense and can generate some pretty fun tricks. Had a mythic campaign? Use the PC-names when acting as a vessel for the respective spirit - it's simple, but incredibly rewarding. The general notion of taboos and the influence mechanic similarly can make for some great roleplaying. The mesmerist class tends to be called unfocused by some reviews I've read...and frankly, I have no idea why. The mesmerist, from the cool concept to the execution, makes for a very rewarding playing experience and has some serious optimization potential to boot -the implanting of tricks, the skill-array...both from the perspective of the stories you can tell with this class and the options available for the enterprising player, this class is absolutely amazing and allows for some neat, diverse characters. The stare-mechanic is also something that can be employed to rather great effect. The occultist is a similarly evocative concept - the focus on implements and fact that each can make for an unique item on its own is a lot of roleplaying potential and the respective focus powers provide a similarly interesting playing experience. The psychic, as the full caster, ranks as one of the more intriguing full casters in my book, with magical amplification and disciplines providing a nice array of diverse builds. The spiritualist, finally, would basically be a balanced take on the summoner with a fluff that I consider amazing.

This would bring me to what sets the classes apart more so than their mechanical validity - the fact that, to me, they represent, universally a great blending of providing player and character agenda, but this also means that they have things they can do beyond the confines of combat - there is a significant emphasis on the ROLEplaying aspect of the game we all know and love, with a wide variety of diverse tricks associated with actual roleplaying; the classes have means of depicting interesting characters; a player can really make each class its own: The implements, phantoms and all the components of the classes and their structure almost demand, organically, to be used by the player to make something that exceeds the totality of the mathematical components. In short, as far I'm concerned, these are the best player-focused options since the APG and as a whole, I consider the roster to be superior to even that gem of a book.

However, the customization options similarly provide some seriously cool tricks: Want to play Scarecrow from Batman? Yup. Cultist leader? Yep. Eat books and draw strength from it? Yeah. Amnesiac psychic? Yup. As a whole, covering archetypes and feats would obviously bloat the book beyond compare - but one crucial point as opposed to most books of this size lies in the big C-word - consistency. There are no overpowered options here...and neither are there options that you'd consider to be subpar traps sans value - there is some character concept, some specific thing that makes sense from a build and/or flavor perspective. (The options that I won't use will be the onmyoji, elemental annihilator, psychic duelist and kami medium - the Eastern-themed ones mainly since I prefer Interjection Games' take on the Onmyoji and its themes; the psychic duelist is a nice specialist, but doesn't blow me away. Finally, the annihilator...well, I have 3pp options that are more versatile.) - notice something? My criticism here pertains mostly taste.

Now this alone does make the book shine very much for me; at the same time, I wouldn't be me if I didn't have complaints, right? So there we go: The book contains various pieces of advice and alternate rules/subsystems of the material and one would by psychic duels...which are generally an awesome idea and provide for cool, creative minigames when handled right. Alas, the spell used to start them, instigate psychic duel, pretty much is a save-or-suck option, since the affected target has the save...and while the duel is in process, the target cannot move...which allows allies to stab the foe to bits. Oddly, the instigator of such a duel can end it via a Will-save as per the spell, when the psychic duel-rules do not mention such an option for the affected character - this is intended, undoubtedly, since those caught in a duel can be shaken out of it. At the same time, I think that pretty basic modifications could have prevented that little lockdown-aspect: For example, taking a penalty on MP to be capable of at least utilizing a fraction of the action array available...you know, moving slowly towards the instigator while battling him in the duel, maintaining at least defenses...the like. Granted, the system is optional and can be modified rather easily, but I'm still somewhat astonished that this very basic strategy was not used, particularly after the complaints the slumber hex etc. received. Still, this represents a relatively minor issue when seen in relation to the number of things that *do* work pretty perfectly...and the fact that psychic duels work infinitely better than 3.X's mindscapes and similar tricks.

Once again, the storytelling potential is what sells this on me. Beyond the copious GM-advice, the book contains some information on esoteric planes like the akashic record, the positive/negative energy plane and the like - which I generally enjoyed. At the same time, I did feel like the book could have done a little bit more with unique planar features for some of them, since not all receive this component in detail. Of course gear, both mundane and magical, can be found in this tome - from the phrenologist's kit (phrenology being the by now debunked belief that the size and shape of the skull influences personality etc. - and yes, there's a feat inspired by it here!) to the Dorian Gray-ish pictures, we notice one thing - the items, much like a ton of material herein, is steeped in a sense of the real, in the occult traditions and pseudo-science of days gone by.

What do I mean by this? Take alchemy, an established concept in our fantasy games. If you have the stamina to power through them, I'd sincerely suggest getting a copy of the writings of real world alchemists, sit down with the cool alchemy recipes and start - I guarantee you'll come up with new and evocative material. A similar observation can be made here - the tying into concepts and ideas established in our world generates basically the largest hand-out you could fathom and some research will almost assuredly provide a vast selection of truly evocative concepts to represent, while also teaching something new along the way. You do not have to be interested in masons, OTO, etc. to enjoy this book - but you can draw upon esoteric and occult knowledge to enrich the game tremendously. Heck, I'm pretty much a nihilistic atheist and my fascination with the subject matter stems from a purely intellectual point of view, but I still appreciate all the ideas and their impact on the genesis of our mode of thought. Similarly, the idea of locus spirits, of tapping into ley lines and similar high-concept tricks complement an implied world-building and -conception that goes beyond the surface, that extends into a level of depth beyond the superficial pushing of numbers.

Part II of my review can be found here!


Fun, but a bit esoteric

3/5

Don't take it the wrong way. You can have tons of fun with this book in other games. I played a mesmerist and it was hilarious, had a whole Doctor Orpheus thing going on. The Kineticist can be flavored a little and it basically becomes a bender from Avatar! How freaking cool is that?!
There are quite a few spells and special abilities that feel like they can only come in handy in very specific ways though. All the mindscape things would almost never come up in a regular game. This feels very much like a book that would be a lot more fun if all your players HAD to take a class from this book, which is a terrible premise for a core book.
On a personal note, almost none of these classes work with Mythic Adventures...


Solid Product

4/5

Really, nothing in this book is bad overall, and while there's a few mechanics that I would like to change, it's not enough to change my thoughts. The psychic casters are interesting with different mechanics that still feel familiar, and everything else works very well. I'd say it's worth picking up.


Finally psychic powers makes it's way to Pathfinder

5/5

I have been waiting for psychic related rules for Pathfinder for a long time and I am happy for what I see.
Kineticist- This one has become one of my favorite classes with it's all day blasting and at will/always active spell powers and supernatural abilities. I would love to see more classes that focuses on spell powers and supernatural abilities then just spellcasters, martials, and skill monkeys.
Medium- While I am not big on this one, it does have some interesting flavor and good story ideas. My only problem is it is one of the more complex classes.
Mesmerist- I like this one, it is a debuffer counter part to the bard and also makes a great villain. It is also a good spiritual successor for the Beguiler class.
Occultist- As with the Medium interesting flavor and good story value but complex mechanically. Not one my favorites but like all classes in this book, it fills a niche.
Psychic- Interesting class and fills the 9th caster for psychic magic but lacks in the flavor/story department compared to the other 5 classes. Still a solid class with some interesting abilities.
Spiritualist- One of my favorite classes has good flavor/story value and is not as complicated to use as the Medium and Occultist. A great class when dealing with incorporeal creatures especially undead.
These classes are just the tip of the iceberg, we get rules for auras, chakras, psychic duels, possession, occult rituals, occult skill unlocks, loci spirits, ley lines, mindscapes, and more. This one is as useful as the APG and the ARG.


A great addition to the game

5/5

Read my full review on Of Dice and Pen.

Occult Adventures is a great addition to the Pathfinder game. It does more than just introduce a bunch of new classes and create Pathfinder's version of psionics. It adds a whole new flavour and style of campaign with new rules options that back that flavour up. I eagerly look forward to trying out some of its ideas in a future campaign.


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I do have to say that I am worried that when I am playing a kineticist, I'm going to keep wondering: "Why am I playing an archer who has to hurt himself to do less damage than a normal archer?".

Of course, the issue is that archers in pathfinder are overpowered, so I'm not sure that we actually want the kineticist to do that much damage. Hopefully all the utility abilities will help with that a bit. Unfortunately, I don't think they are even going to approach what a caster is capable of.


Jamie Charlan wrote:


You did NOT just use a bloody Warrior as an excuse. I'm hallucinating. That's gotta be it. No one would use the warrior as a standard for class capability. This didn't happen. I didn't read that. It would never be written.

Good, because nobody did =P

The comment was referring to someone else saying that the kineticist's damage and utility was on par with a warrior using a bow.

Extra Anchovies wrote:
Wall costs 3 burn. That means it only becomes at-will at level 11.

8, actually, remember Gather Power. Though it's a moot point anyway since you can't get it before level 11.

Extra Anchovies wrote:
utility talents (which are not wild talents; "wild talents" are those that modify the blasts)

Nope, they're still wild talents, they're called "Utility Wild Talents" in the book. Infusion wild talents modify the blasts.

Extra Anchovies wrote:
And a same-leveled kineticist can deal 1d6+2 damage (assuming 18 Con).

That's assuming it's a touch attack, which would give it a leg up. To keep it as equal as possible it'd probably be an earth blast, which would do 1d6+5 P/B/S without any feats.

Extra Anchovies wrote:
None of this changes the fact that the Kineticist has inexcusably poor damage, which is what I complained about to begin with.

Just so I can get a feel for what you want, what sort of damage are you looking for? 12d6+12+CON (18d6+18+CON if I want to use 1 burn, which I can do 2/day for free) that entangles on a failed REF save at level 11 is pretty snazzy for me, but I don't play in really highly optimized games.


Just going to point out this: people keep worrying about the kineticist's single target damage. Well, single target damage is what the kineticist is *worst* at.

The kineticist is really a specialist damaging several targets at the same time and doing an additional nasty effect to all of them. A level 10 kineticist could fire his blast at 3 people (4 with haste) and apply a rider effect (such as setting them on fire) at the cost of just a standard and move action. With no burn if my calculations are correct.

Dark Archive

Matrix Dragon wrote:

Just going to point out this: people keep worrying about the kineticist's single target damage. Well, single target damage is what the kineticist is *worst* at.

The kineticist is really a specialist damaging several targets at the same time and doing an additional nasty effect to all of them. A level 10 kineticist could fire his blast at 3 people (4 with haste) and apply a rider effect (such as setting them on fire) at the cost of just a standard and move action. With no burn if my calculations are correct.

Actually, unless you are using flurry of blast(which has the same blast damage as a level 1 kinetecist unless you pour everything on the same target and in that case why are you using that infusion) you can't throw more than a single blast per turn as it is a standard action spell-like ability. Of course the kinetcist has a great ton of option of AoE infusion too use. The difference between those and a wizard? 320feet on average.


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Jamie Charlan wrote:

You did NOT just use a bloody Warrior as an excuse. I'm hallucinating. That's gotta be it. No one would use the warrior as a standard for class capability. This didn't happen. I didn't read that. It would never be written.

The Fighter can barely even do the job it's entirely specialized in doing in terms of adventuring and CR relations; and the Warrior flat out cannot.

You may as well lobotomise every child in the village so that Gruk's thrice-dropped genetic accident won't feel he isn't "DA MOSTEST SPECHUL". That's the method you're suggesting for designing classes (and yet somehow still giving a free pass to vancian fulls)

Could you please make your points without all the hyperbole? Anything you're trying to say gets drowned out by it, and it's a general buzzkill for the tone of the thread.

Grand Lodge

I love the Reincarnated medium archetype. The idea is so nuts and so neat at the same time!


Hyamda wrote:
Matrix Dragon wrote:

Just going to point out this: people keep worrying about the kineticist's single target damage. Well, single target damage is what the kineticist is *worst* at.

The kineticist is really a specialist damaging several targets at the same time and doing an additional nasty effect to all of them. A level 10 kineticist could fire his blast at 3 people (4 with haste) and apply a rider effect (such as setting them on fire) at the cost of just a standard and move action. With no burn if my calculations are correct.

Actually, unless you are using flurry of blast(which has the same blast damage as a level 1 kinetecist unless you pour everything on the same target and in that case why are you using that infusion) you can't throw more than a single blast per turn as it is a standard action spell-like ability. Of course the kinetcist has a great ton of option of AoE infusion too use. The difference between those and a wizard? 320feet on average.

Ahh, I missed that it lowers your kineticist level. Yea, the ability is kind of worthless then unless you are just spreading debuffs. It boardered on low damage even with a full kineticist level.

I guess the way to go for pyrokineticists at least is just to spam AOEs all day.

Edit: It seems like the go-to power for heavy damage from a kineticist is still kinetic blade and kinetic whip since they let you do a full-attack. Of course, that puts the kineticist pretty much in melee range.

Dark Archive

Quote:

Ahh, I missed that it lowers your kineticist level. Yea, the ability is kind of worthless then unless you are just spreading debuffs. It boardered on low damage even with a full kineticist level.

I guess the way to go for pyrokineticists at least is just to spam AOEs all day.

That and stay away from AP. They always have devil or other kind of fire immune stuff that don't have the fire subtype. I don't think you'll want sit on the bench for a full fight.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Jamie Charlan wrote:

Good is subjective; some people are content, but a good rule of thumb in my experience is half a monster's HP for CR=Lv, if your main job in combat is to dish it out.

For example, If you can't pump out at least 65 per round (preferably more to account for defenses) at level 10, and your role in combat is "
I hit thing", you're not doing your job, and people are getting hurt because you're slow.

The Kineticist is very, very much a "primary attacker". Not-a-Blaster it ain't. Its main class abilities are "shoot thing I don't like".

Umm, I'm going to use level 11 (because I just did this calculation elsewhere). Without taking a single point of actual Burn, you can be doing 12d6+12+Con (Physical Composite Blast), +6 (Elemental Overflow which will probably be also giving you +4 Con and +2 Dex) +6 (Deadly Aim) by taking a move action to Gather Power. If you're using infusions (which you can reduce for free using Infusion Specialist), you can freely make it trip, push, entangle, blind, or grapple them (or turn it into a wall, or a flaming sphere type mobile ball, or a geyser, etc). Assuming that your Con is a base 20 at that level with a +2 item and your elemental overload, that is an average of 74 damage without taking a point of actual burn damage at that time.

Note, this isn't at all optimized. This is simply using any of the physical composite blasts, average stats, assuming you've taken 3 Burn over the course of the day (which you'll probably do early on to activate a couple of the all day Utility Wild Talents and your Elemental Overload), and a single feat.

Dark Archive

Quote:

Umm, I'm going to use level 11 (because I just did this calculation elsewhere). Without taking a single point of actual Burn, +6 (Elemental Overflow which will probably be also giving you +4 Con and +2 Dex)

Small comment but as I read this, Elemental Overflow REQUIRES you to be taking a point of burn for you to get the bonus to attack and damage(not the size bonus as those are clearly labelled)

So you just lost 6 damage and 3 attack bonus because you didn't reduce your maximum hit point total by your level


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Hyamda wrote:


Quote:

Umm, I'm going to use level 11 (because I just did this calculation elsewhere). Without taking a single point of actual Burn, +6 (Elemental Overflow which will probably be also giving you +4 Con and +2 Dex)

Small comment but as I read this, Elemental Overflow REQUIRES you to be taking a point of burn for you to get the bonus to attack and damage(not the size bonus as those are clearly labelled)

So you just lost 6 damage and 3 attack bonus because you didn't reduce your maximum hit point total by your level

I think you're reading it wrong. The effect starts when they accept Burn, but it remains indefinitely after that. Read the last sentence of the first paragraph - "The next time the kineticist uses any wild talent, the visual effects and benefits return instantly." - It doesn't say that the next time they accept burn. It says the next time they use a wild talent.

When a kineticist has taken Burn for the day, they get bonuses to attack and damage. When they've taken enough at higher levels, they get bonuses to physical stats. So at the beginning of the day, I take 3 burn to pump up my Defensive Wild Talent or activate one of my all day Utility Talents that requires burn.

Dark Archive

That last part is if you try and repress it

"The kineticist can suppress the visual effects of elemental overflow by concentrating for 1  full round, but doing so suppresses all of this ability’s other benefits, as well. The next time the kineticist uses any wild talent, the visual effects and benefits return instantly."

You actually do lose them. This is not like Feel the Burn worked during the beta


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Hyamda wrote:

That last part is if you try and repress it

"The kineticist can suppress the visual effects of elemental overflow by concentrating for 1  full round, but doing so suppresses all of this ability’s other benefits, as well. The next time the kineticist uses any wild talent, the visual effects and benefits return instantly."

You actually do lose them. This is not like Feel the Burn worked during the beta

There's no duration on Elemental Overflow, and if you suppress it, it comes back the next time you use a Wild Talent (so any class feature). If you have Burn (which stays around until you sleep), your Elemental Overflow is activated until you suppress it, and then it comes back as soon as you use any Wild Talent.

I'm not seeing where the confusion is.


Robert Brookes wrote:
All told, I think it does still work well for the vampiric theme (for a dhampir, especially).

I disagree, I don't think I've ever see vampires or dhampir who move water currents, lift water, heal people, spray water out of their hands, make ice sculpters... I mean. There is no way to play a blood kineticist without having water powers, and water powers are not associated with vampires and dhampir.

Quote:

There's no duration on Elemental Overflow, and if you suppress it, it comes back the next time you use a Wild Talent (so any class feature). If you have Burn (which stays around until you sleep), your Elemental Overflow is activated until you suppress it, and then it comes back as soon as you use any Wild Talent.

I'm not seeing where the confusion is.

Thing is, suppressing elemental overflow just suppresses elemental overflow. Which's effects are dependent on the external number of burn. If you unsuppress it when you have zero burn, it will only give you the benefits of zero burn (which is nothing).


Maxim Nikolaev wrote:
I love the Reincarnated medium archetype. The idea is so nuts and so neat at the same time!

Watches movie The Crow

Yeah, something like that...

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Brandon Hodge wrote:
Please please pretty please folks can we move the deep mechanical kineticist discussions over to the Kineticist Preview Thread as we asked previously? Thanks!

Is there really just no hope of you folks taking the deep mechanical kineticist talk and build breakdowns elsewhere? Follow the link above and argue to your hearts' content. Start a new thread. Please just do something other than arguing with one another over the deeper intricacies of the kineticist class. It is a significant and undoubtedly popular part of this book, but also only a fraction of the content. Your argument has dominated the discussion and drowned out other topics of interest, and there are other avenues and forums on these boards to have those debates. Please. Mark will answer you there as well as he has here. He promises! :-)


Hey! the Pathfinder Society Additional resources is finally updated!

Red Text near the bottom of the page, HERE!


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Brandon Hodge wrote:
Brandon Hodge wrote:
Please please pretty please folks can we move the deep mechanical kineticist discussions over to the Kineticist Preview Thread as we asked previously? Thanks!
Is there really just no hope of you folks taking the deep mechanical kineticist talk and build breakdowns elsewhere? Follow the link above and argue to your hearts' content. Start a new thread. Please just do something other than arguing with one another over the deeper intricacies of the kineticist class. It is a significant and undoubtedly popular part of this book, but also only a fraction of the content. Your argument has dominated the discussion and drowned out other topics of interest, and there are other avenues and forums on these boards to have those debates. Please. Mark will answer you there as well as he has here. He promises! :-)

Sorry, will do from now on. Just annoyed to see people keep whining about it being ridiculously weak and not even looking at the basic class options.


Milo v3 wrote:


Thing is, suppressing elemental overflow just suppresses elemental overflow. Which's effects are dependent on the external number of burn. If you unsuppress it when you have zero burn, it will only give you the benefits of zero burn (which is nothing).

You do realize that burn doesn't go away until after you sleep... Its not like elemental overflow only activates during the round you accept burn. It persists.


Question: Leylines increase effective caster level which affects spell variables. Does it also potentially increase the spell levels you can cast?

I only ask because it works in the opposite way and a lowering of caster level means you can no longer cast the highest level spell slot you have.

Edit: Example a level 2 wizard who atunes himself to a leyline would now have a caster level of three which is now high enough to cast second level spells. Does he gain these spells?


Of all the times for a store to have distributor hiccups... It sounds like my reserved copy will not be in for at least another week. :(

So tempted to buy the PDF just to hold me over until I have the book. I'm failing my will saves to prevent from going bonkers from the wait.

I saw someone mention the Akashic Records. How does using them come into play? Are they accessed from a feat, skill unlock, or something different?

And how about the 'ol occult idea of "animal magnetism"? It seems like something that would tie in with how the Mesmerist does what they do. Any mention of it?


Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Joe Hex wrote:
I saw someone mention the Akashic Records. How does using them come into play? Are they accessed from a feat, skill unlock, or something different?

The Akashic Records are a demiplane on the Astral Plane, can't be reached by plane shift, and contain perfect records of everything that has ever happened in the multiverse. Object reading uses knowledge gained from it, and souls who experience their lives have their consciousness touch upon it to experience their lives truthfully and objectively.

...dreadful, innit?


AmirE wrote:

Question: Leylines increase effective caster level which affects spell variables. Does it also potentially increase the spell levels you can cast?

I only ask because it works in the opposite way and a lowering of caster level means you can no longer cast the highest level spell slot you have.

Edit: Example a level 2 wizard who atunes himself to a leyline would now have a caster level of three which is now high enough to cast second level spells. Does he gain these spells?

Increased caster level never grants new spells or slots.


Luthorne wrote:
Joe Hex wrote:
I saw someone mention the Akashic Records. How does using them come into play? Are they accessed from a feat, skill unlock, or something different?

The Akashic Records are a demiplane on the Astral Plane, can't be reached by plane shift, and contain perfect records of everything that has ever happened in the multiverse. Object reading uses knowledge gained from it, and souls who experience their lives have their consciousness touch upon it to experience their lives truthfully and objectively.

...dreadful, innit?

Sounds like the creative staff nailed the idea of it perfectly. :)

It would be cool if there are options for connecting to the Akashic Records to gain intuitive bonuses on things like knowledge checks, or getting a random glimpse into the memories of a complete stranger who is long dead.


Brandon Hodge wrote:
"move your stuff cadvin you idiot" [sic]

Sorry, wasn't thinking, anything else about the kineticist will be relegated strictly there!

On to more possessed pastures: I really hope the harrowed medium gets released at some point (I'd gladly pay money, hint hint). While the released medium looks mechanically fine it's a bit... disappointing to me. You're pretty flexible day to day sure, but each option just feela boring until very high levels. Four rather cookie-cutter abilities just isn't enough to spread over an entire class.

Also, am I reading something wrong or does the favored location mechanic make it practically impossible for a medium to channel a spirit outside of a big city?


Hmm... I'm probably be using storytellers as my bards from now on.

Xelaaredn wrote:
Milo v3 wrote:


Thing is, suppressing elemental overflow just suppresses elemental overflow. Which's effects are dependent on the external number of burn. If you unsuppress it when you have zero burn, it will only give you the benefits of zero burn (which is nothing).
You do realize that burn doesn't go away until after you sleep... Its not like elemental overflow only activates during the round you accept burn. It persists.

Yes? I know that.

But he was saying he could get the benefits of elemental overflow without burn, by supressing then resting then using a wild talent to reactivate elemental overflow. Which wouldn't work, since once your burn is removed from resting.... you have no burn.


Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Cadvin wrote:
Brandon Hodge wrote:
"move your stuff cadvin you idiot" [sic]

Sorry, wasn't thinking, anything else about the kineticist will be relegated strictly there!

On to more possessed pastures: I really hope the harrowed medium gets released at some point (I'd gladly pay money, hint hint). While the released medium looks mechanically fine it's a bit... disappointing to me. You're pretty flexible day to day sure, but each option just feela boring until very high levels. Four rather cookie-cutter abilities just isn't enough to spread over an entire class.

Also, am I reading something wrong or does the favored location mechanic make it practically impossible for a medium to channel a spirit outside of a big city?

Yeah, I'm a little concerned about it. You'd have to chat with your DM about it, I think, but the relic channeler archetype seems like a decent backup option.


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Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, LO Special Edition, Pathfinder Accessories, PF Special Edition Subscriber; Starfinder Superscriber

Hm. It's a role-playing game. IOW, it's a game in which the players each play a role. But reading this thread, it seems it's not a role-playing game — the playing of roles has little relevance. What's important is how much damage a given character can do per round. Really?


Ed Reppert wrote:
Hm. It's a role-playing game. IOW, it's a game in which the players each play a role. But reading this thread, it seems it's not a role-playing game — the playing of roles has little relevance. What's important is how much damage a given character can do per round. Really?

Part of playing a role is being useful to the party. If you can't deal a lot of damage in combat and don't have the Wizard's ability to save or suck, no sell, or bypass things easily, your usefulness is rather limited. Also hard to have fun roleplaying somebody who shreds enemies with stone when an archer is straight better than you at damage dealing and you lack the debuffing or AOE abilities of most arcane spellcasters.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Ed Reppert wrote:
Hm. It's a role-playing game. IOW, it's a game in which the players each play a role. But reading this thread, it seems it's not a role-playing game — the playing of roles has little relevance. What's important is how much damage a given character can do per round. Really?

I agree. Playing a character that is predicated only on being a terror in battle, feels way too much like a video game and not a role playing game.


Joe Hex wrote:
Could you please make your points without all the hyperbole?

That's surprising given the tone is already filled with half-truths or worse...

Cadvin wrote:
Good because nobody did =P
Psyrus wrote:

. The kineticist has a POWER advantage over every other "slots-per-day" casting class...

Even an NPC warrior with a masterwork composite longbow (*snipped the maths just to save space: do note they result in higher DPR without burn*)
The warrior doesn't gain any extra protection,
the warrior has a limited supply of ammo,
the warrior cannot use his bow to jump 30 ft vertically on a whim...
It was literally called borderline-overpowered by stating it's better than a Warrior (somehow this being a BAD thing, somehow you shouldn't be better than the "generic NPC class that's less fighter than a fighter") and doesn't run out of ammo, AND is more powerful than
Quote:
every other "slots-per-day" casting class

. That's not even sad anymore. That was just disingenuous.

Now apparently in order to let the thread die we're supposed to go talk about that class elsewhere...

*btw, running out of ammo doesn't happen anymore, usually well before level 10 at that.


@Jamie Charlan The Kineticist mechanics party has moved to a different thread.


Luthorne wrote:
Joe Hex wrote:
I saw someone mention the Akashic Records. How does using them come into play? Are they accessed from a feat, skill unlock, or something different?

Uhm no. Sorry for the confusion. I had an archetype idea for the occultist class. An extremely specialized divination concept that no longer needed an implement, couldn't bestow the effects of their focus on others, didn't learn circles or summoning. The archetype was called the Akashic Seeker and the intent was for this occultist to look inward, and not to random passer by outsiders for information. that the astral plane is a conduit where one can access the Akashic record; all truth, all knowledge, all experience. The Akashic seeker uses their psychic power to attain enlightenment.

************************************************8*
I was exploring an idea of a "Combat Precognitive" type of character, based on the very real experiments around "Prestimulus response" and "Prestimulus Go, No-go". I.E. Most people need 0.3 of a second to acknowledge that they are seeing something; the fastest martial artist reflexes are approximately 0.18 of a second, between stimulus and Strike; however, a precognitive may be accessing a feature of quantum mechanics where information appears to travel backwards in time. Dr. Edwin May is right, that consciousness can push against all the possible futures up to 8 seconds (usually only 3.5 seconds) in advance - allowing for a martial artist who can begin reacting (opening an industrial sized can of whoop-az) long before an enemy even thinks about moves. Also, as this is using a hyperconscious state that seeks out the most optimal course of action before collapsing probability waves into what we experience as "The Present" (*which is actually lagging a bit behind) such an Agent would be flawlessly perfect with every move - provided that the results of the action occur within the next 8 seconds or less.

Dodge bullets? yes, not via super human speed, just the intuitive urging to avoid a non-optimal outcome. Unlike a telepath, a combat precognitive does not need to make contact with an enemy mind. The Agent may not even know that enemies are present until the insight begins guiding the agent. the ability is not dependent on others, it depends on you to listen to intuitive direction.

When a combat precognitive is mental accessing a frame of time an instant before our own; the information is not KNOWLEDGE, but experienced intuitively - thus causality is not violated.

Combat precognitives once trained will be assigned to counter intell and Sensitive information/persons protection services. This program was conducted via agency other than the C.I.A. (which is still pursuing remote viewing) there are several active agents in the US.

End of brief.


Jamie Charlan wrote:
It was literally called borderline-overpowered by stating it's better than a Warrior

Like I said, they were refuting a claim that the class was as useful as a warrior, not using the warriro as a balancing reference. Now, let's move this talk to the Kineticist Preview Thread !


I'm a little confused by the capstone ability for the Psychic Bloodline. How exactly does it work? If the Mind Swap is successful, do you get to change the creature's action (to not killing you)? Or does the attack kill the creature now residing in your body? Do you then die many hours later when the spell wears off?


psyrus wrote:
Luthorne wrote:
Joe Hex wrote:
I saw someone mention the Akashic Records. How does using them come into play? Are they accessed from a feat, skill unlock, or something different?

Uhm no. Sorry for the confusion. I had an archetype idea for the occultist class. An extremely specialized divination concept that no longer needed an implement, couldn't bestow the effects of their focus on others, didn't learn circles or summoning. The archetype was called the Akashic Seeker and the intent was for this occultist to look inward, and not to random passer by outsiders for information. that the astral plane is a conduit where one can access the Akashic record; all truth, all knowledge, all experience. The Akashic seeker uses their psychic power to attain enlightenment.

************************************************8*
I was exploring an idea of a "Combat Precognitive" type of character, based on the very real experiments around "Prestimulus response" and "Prestimulus Go, No-go". I.E. Most people need 0.3 of a second to acknowledge that they are seeing something; the fastest martial artist reflexes are approximately 0.18 of a second, between stimulus and Strike; however, a precognitive may be accessing a feature of quantum mechanics where information appears to travel backwards in time. Dr. Edwin May is right, that consciousness can push against all the possible futures up to 8 seconds (usually only 3.5 seconds) in advance - allowing for a martial artist who can begin reacting (opening an industrial sized can of whoop-az) long before an enemy even thinks about moves. Also, as this is using a hyperconscious state that seeks out the most optimal course of action before collapsing probability waves into what we experience as "The Present" (*which is actually lagging a bit behind) such an Agent would be flawlessly perfect with every move - provided that the results of the action occur within the next 8 seconds or less.

Dodge bullets? yes, not via super human speed, just the...

I like your idea. :)

I think an Akashic mystery or archetype for the Oracle would be cool.


Got my copy of the pdf and have been working on it for the past couple hours. I've only gotten the chance to give "Running an Occult Game" a quick read (I'll dig more into the juicy bits later), but I'm glad to have it reaffirm some of the ideas and plans I was making for a future occult game in a Victorian setting. Thanks Brandon and the other members of the Occult-creative team (whose names regrettably escape me right now)!


Milo v3 wrote:

Hmm... I'm probably be using storytellers as my bards from now on.

Xelaaredn wrote:
Milo v3 wrote:


Thing is, suppressing elemental overflow just suppresses elemental overflow. Which's effects are dependent on the external number of burn. If you unsuppress it when you have zero burn, it will only give you the benefits of zero burn (which is nothing).
You do realize that burn doesn't go away until after you sleep... Its not like elemental overflow only activates during the round you accept burn. It persists.

Yes? I know that.

But he was saying he could get the benefits of elemental overflow without burn, by supressing then resting then using a wild talent to reactivate elemental overflow. Which wouldn't work, since once your burn is removed from resting.... you have no burn.

Except that's not what he was saying at all. What he was saying is after sleeping you could bump up defenses/activate full day powers with a burn cost to set up Elemental Overflow for the day and just suppress the effects for the rest of the day until you start blasting.


As I mentioned a few pages back (34 or higher in this thread) I looked at the Unchained Monk with the Weapon adept archetype, the threatening defender combat trait, the Signature moves social trait, the acrobatics skill and the following feats:
Improved unarmed strike (monk bonus)
Dodge (monk bonus)
weapon finesse (Human)
Combat expertise (first level)
Perfect Strike(1st level Archetype bonus)
Weapon focus (2nd level Archetype bonus)
Combat reflexes (2nd level monk bonus)
Crane style (3rd level feat)
Crane wing (5th level feat)
Mobility (6th level monk bonus)
Crane riposte (7th level feat)
and fighting defensively standard action...

The result? no penalty when fighting defensively and gaining a considerable stacking bonus to armor class, on top of the monk's AC bonus!

As this massive dodge + parry idea based on some 11 feats wouldn't be available to an akashic seeker (who has no bonus feats) I decided on applying a +1 occultist level to the resonant and focus powers per each "implement" to make them the best at what they do.


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Brandon Hodge wrote:
Brandon Hodge wrote:
Please please pretty please folks can we move the deep mechanical kineticist discussions over to the Kineticist Preview Thread as we asked previously? Thanks!
Is there really just no hope of you folks taking the deep mechanical kineticist talk and build breakdowns elsewhere? Follow the link above and argue to your hearts' content. Start a new thread. Please just do something other than arguing with one another over the deeper intricacies of the kineticist class. It is a significant and undoubtedly popular part of this book, but also only a fraction of the content. Your argument has dominated the discussion and drowned out other topics of interest, and there are other avenues and forums on these boards to have those debates. Please. Mark will answer you there as well as he has here. He promises! :-)

But...but someone's wrong on the internet!

In all seriousness, sorry. Off I go to apologist for Kineticist in the appropriate space.

Liberty's Edge

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Xelaaredn wrote:
Milo v3 wrote:

Hmm... I'm probably be using storytellers as my bards from now on.

Xelaaredn wrote:
Milo v3 wrote:


Thing is, suppressing elemental overflow just suppresses elemental overflow. Which's effects are dependent on the external number of burn. If you unsuppress it when you have zero burn, it will only give you the benefits of zero burn (which is nothing).
You do realize that burn doesn't go away until after you sleep... Its not like elemental overflow only activates during the round you accept burn. It persists.

Yes? I know that.

But he was saying he could get the benefits of elemental overflow without burn, by supressing then resting then using a wild talent to reactivate elemental overflow. Which wouldn't work, since once your burn is removed from resting.... you have no burn.

Except that's not what he was saying at all. What he was saying is after sleeping you could bump up defenses/activate full day powers with a burn cost to set up Elemental Overflow for the day and just suppress the effects for the rest of the day until you start blasting.

Please listen to Brandon, one of the writers for this book, and take the Kineticist discussion to its own thread.


psyrus wrote:

Hrmm, my earlier post regarding this imagined archetype has vanished into the ether. I found some of it:

Akashic seeker
There is rumors of something called the akashic record; it is not a place or a thing. It is the idea that all truth, all knowledge, all experience, exists in the conduit of the astral plane. There is the belief that through careful meditation one can connect to the akashic record - to gain an awareness and understanding beyond all time and space. The Akashic seeker as an occultist is specialized in divination; glimpsing the akashic record for guidance and wisdom.
The Akashic seeker is proficient with light armor, and shields (Not tower shields), all simple and one martial weapon; this changes the armor and weapon proficiency of the occultist.
The Akashic seeker uses wisdom in place of intelligence for all occultist class abilities.
The Akashic seeker is a divination specialist who applies mental focus to their “mind’s eye” and does not use implements.
Despite not using implements the Akashic Seeker has access to all the resonant and focus powers provided by a divination implement.
The Akashic seeker’s mental focus cannot be provided to others. This changes the focus power, implements, and mental focus class features.
The Akashic seeker directs focus inward and does not learn to use magic circles, outside contact, binding circles, and fast circles.
For each known implement applied to your implement school (*Divination) you count as +1 occultist level higher for the use of your occultist powers.

I was wanting to know if this was a good archetype design or not...

I believe that this forum focuses on that type of question. You might get more people with experience in archetype design there than than you will in a more general thread like this one.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Is there a precedent for using the same stat for two saves? Unless there is, I wouldn't start one. Just creates avenues for even more SAD characters.


someweirdguy wrote:
Is there a precedent for using the same stat for two saves? Unless there is, I wouldn't start one. Just creates avenues for even more SAD characters.

You're probably right. I was just trying to think of a way for Akashic intuition to improve reflexes.

Edit: By now I should know most of the forum lingo, but what does "SAD" stand for?

Liberty's Edge

SAD= Single Attribute Dependant
MAD= Multiple Attribute Dependant

EDIT: ninja'ed

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