There is an unseen world all around you. On the streets and in the halls of power, in your dreams and across the bizarre planes of the multiverse, there are those who walk among us like giants among ants, twisting reality to their wills in their search for ancient knowledge. Now pull back the curtain of the mundane world and learn the secrets of these occult masters—if you dare!
Pathfinder RPG Occult Adventures is an indispensable companion to the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook. This imaginative tabletop game builds upon over 15 years of system development and an Open Playtest featuring more than 50,000 gamers to create a cutting-edge RPG experience that brings the all-time best-selling set of fantasy rules into a new era.
Pathfinder RPG Occult Adventures includes:
Six new occult base classes—the energy-shaping kineticist, the spirit-calling medium, the deceptive mesmerist, the mind-bending psychic, the uncanny occultist, and the phantom-binding spiritualist.
Archetypes for all of the new classes, as well as a broad selection of strange and mysterious archetypes and class options for existing characters.
New feats to flesh out your occult character, plus a whole new way to use existing skills to become a master of faith healing, hypnotism, psychometry, and more!
More than 100 spells using the all-new psychic magic system, plus rituals that grant even non-spellcasting characters occult power! Explore worlds beyond imagining with dream voyage, or defend yourself from mental threats with tower of iron will!
Rules and advice to help you steep your game in the occult, from chakras and deadly mindscapes to possession, psychic duels, and the Esoteric Planes.
A wide variety of new magic items, such as the eerie spirit mirror and the peculiar tin cap, plus new cursed items and powerful artifacts.
... and much, much more!
ISBN-13: 978-1-60125-762-8
Other Resources: This product is also available on the following platforms:
This massive hardcover clocks in at a whopping 271 pages, though 1 page inside of front cover, 1 page editorial, 1 page ToC and 1/3rd of a page decrease that down to 267 2/3 pages of content, so let's take a look!
Well, before we do, let me deal with the confusion for a second that this review undoubtedly will cause. Yes, I usually only do 3pp material. This has several reasons: For one, I want to showcase the fringe of gaming, the evocative books that push the envelope. Secondly, I'm not particularly affluent, to say the least and want to reward the publishers that do send me their books. Well, I obviously *HAVE* to get the Paizo books anyways, but for the most part nowadays, that means pdf or waiting until they're open sourced - I just can't afford them all. Then again, I do have a policy of covering all books I receive...and I got this book on gencon.
That would be the justification I provide from an intellectual point of view. There is another reason. I *WANT* to write this review and, since I have the hardcover now, have absolutely no reason not to.
Now usually, I provide the respective breakdowns of classes and crunch, but frankly, there are whole guides devoted to that out there, which is why I have elected to pursue a different path this time around. (Different path...that'll be a leitmotif, as you'll see...) In order to properly be able to contextualize my take on this book, I will have to embark on a little recap of Paizo's hardcovers and my history with them, so if you're not interested in that, please skip ahead.
When I got my hands on the core rules hardcover for Pathfinder, I was generally positively surprised - it represents a tightening of 3.X's engine and some sensible, smart tweaks to the mechanics. Still, it didn't manage to elicit cheers or particular excitement at my table - that only came with the APG. The Advanced Player's Guide, in spite of its minor flaws, would represent, at least to me, the truly identity-constituting moment of Pathfinder. It is here, with the alchemist, witch, oracle, etc. that the game set out to truly distinguish itself from its roots and transcend basically anything 3.X ever offered. To this day, the APG classes rank among the favorites at my table, which only bespeaks their staying power and coolness. Next up were Ultimate Magic and Combat and with them, alas, came the power creep.
While, much like many out there, I did enjoy the magus, not much else from Ultimate Magic sees regular use in my games and I went through the book with a fine-toothed comb and ban-hammered/restricted material. Ultimate Combat is a more complex story - on one hand, I did like the new classes and e.g. the emphasis on the narrative aspect the gunslinger entailed; alas, for said class, player agenda suffered and mathematically, it would have been served better with a slightly different chassis. So while I like what it represents and quite a few pieces of UC's options, many aren't used in my games. Mythic Adventures is peculiar - I like mythic gameplay, but only when supported by the ton of Legendary Games material I own - I tried running vanilla WotR and it was PCs curbstomping through everything. Still, I do like this book - just not as a stand-alone. I adore Ultimate Campaign. Its downtime and kingdom building make sense to me, are used a lot at my table and story feats are a good idea as well - there's nothing I don't like about that book and what it has brought to my table.
Well, and the less I say about the ARG and ACG, the better. My stance on both books is well known. (Hint: To say I don't like them would be a gross understatement.)
Fast forward to Occult Adventures. For one, this book's class design represents an organic development that benefits the game. An easy way to look at a class would be to examine it regarding player agenda and character agenda. Character agenda, in this instance, would pertain the ability to contribute meaningfully to various situations. It's why I think that skill unlocks are a good idea and 2 + Int skills for all but Int-based casters, generally, is not a good idea. It's just not as fun to play a fighter who can only kill things and excels at one non-combat thing...unless, of course, that's how you roll, but in general, I have observed players gravitate to classes that provide more skill-use and versatility. Player agenda would be just as important: Can the player make meaningful choices that alter the playstyle? The higher the player agenda is, the more rules-knowledge is required; true. But at the same time, it does help immensely in the long run to generate a unique being from a mechanics point of view - if you don't get to choose, you'll sooner, rather than later, run into a character on distinguished from you by his skills, equipment and feats. Pathfinder, as a system, has covered the base classes for a while; it has advanced players that demand unique concepts. As such and at this point in the system's life, the occult classes with their plethora of meaningful choices are very much appreciated - and if you need some proof of players loving choices, look no further than the modularity of the "Talented" classes invented by Owen K.C. Stephens.
Speaking of classes - let us talk a bit about them and begin with the least "occult" class herein and the most popular one. That would, obviously, be the kineticist...and while I kinda like Avatar, I'm not a rabid fan of this franchise, though I get its appeal. This does not change the fact that the class, as presented, is very niche in focus. Then again, thankfully the 3pp-circuit has since expanded the kineticist's appeal far beyond its thematic confines. (A cheers to N. Jolly for that, even if I don't always agree with all balancing...) So, flavor-wise and regarding base-options, I am not the biggest fan of this class...but at the same time, I absolutely ADORE it. Why? Because it is an engine that would be daring for a small publisher, much more so for Paizo as the industry leader. The rules-engine employed by the kineticist is inspiring and complex and its success is well warranted. Were I to nitpick this class, then my complaints would pertain the fact that its power-curve could be a little better distributed; 17th level plus in particular can be an issue...but that extends to more than just this class and is, to an extent, system-inherent. That being said, I still love this class, though for completely different reasons than probably 99% of its fans and players. It remains a great addition to the class roster and I'm glad it exists.
Now, let us talk a bit about the classes that are designated as occult not only by inclusion in the book, but also by their themes...but for that, we need to talk a bit about genre conventions. It is a general truism that Pathfinder, as a game, is indebted by proxy of D&D to Tolkienesque fantasy and a society structured very much akin to the Early Modern period in history due to the advances of magic. Kobold Press' Midgard is closer to the beginning of the Early Modern period and features a more feudal, medieval flair. Golarion and Pathfinder's default, due to the influences of the weird that made me enjoy the setting in the first place, can be roughly situated at the end of the Early Modern period, with overlaps with the Edwardian and Victorian age - once China Miéville (one of my favorite authors - read the Bas-Lag books!!!)-like aesthetics come into play, you're definitely looking at a society that is bordering a magical industrial revolution. This suits me well, for I come from a Ravenloft background (don't ever get me started on 4th and 5th edition Ravenloft and what I think of those...for all of our sakes...) as such, have always been in love with the fantastic aesthetics of Penny Dreadfuls, early weird fiction, Sword & Sorcery, Sword & Planet...you get the idea. I enjoy these somewhat less standardized, less covered aspects that have been an organic part of the old school aesthetic back in the day, but fell by the wayside somewhere along the lines. Anyways, the classes herein very much support this slightly advanced aesthetic; they resonate well with both the ancient and the more modern themes evoked in their resurgence in aforementioned timeframes. The more subtle magic psychic magic represents and the emotional component inherent in the variant spell system works well in the context of more magic-hostile environments as well as in less fantastic settings with more subdued themes than all out fireball-slinging. The marriage of the aesthetics associated with occultism and their relevant mechanical representations are what makes the classes interesting for me.
Take the medium - while I prefer spirits with names and unique identities, the need to offer the general mechanical framework for the defining spirits of the medium is obvious for such a book and in this context, employing the nomenclature of the mythic paths does make sense and can generate some pretty fun tricks. Had a mythic campaign? Use the PC-names when acting as a vessel for the respective spirit - it's simple, but incredibly rewarding. The general notion of taboos and the influence mechanic similarly can make for some great roleplaying. The mesmerist class tends to be called unfocused by some reviews I've read...and frankly, I have no idea why. The mesmerist, from the cool concept to the execution, makes for a very rewarding playing experience and has some serious optimization potential to boot -the implanting of tricks, the skill-array...both from the perspective of the stories you can tell with this class and the options available for the enterprising player, this class is absolutely amazing and allows for some neat, diverse characters. The stare-mechanic is also something that can be employed to rather great effect. The occultist is a similarly evocative concept - the focus on implements and fact that each can make for an unique item on its own is a lot of roleplaying potential and the respective focus powers provide a similarly interesting playing experience. The psychic, as the full caster, ranks as one of the more intriguing full casters in my book, with magical amplification and disciplines providing a nice array of diverse builds. The spiritualist, finally, would basically be a balanced take on the summoner with a fluff that I consider amazing.
This would bring me to what sets the classes apart more so than their mechanical validity - the fact that, to me, they represent, universally a great blending of providing player and character agenda, but this also means that they have things they can do beyond the confines of combat - there is a significant emphasis on the ROLEplaying aspect of the game we all know and love, with a wide variety of diverse tricks associated with actual roleplaying; the classes have means of depicting interesting characters; a player can really make each class its own: The implements, phantoms and all the components of the classes and their structure almost demand, organically, to be used by the player to make something that exceeds the totality of the mathematical components. In short, as far I'm concerned, these are the best player-focused options since the APG and as a whole, I consider the roster to be superior to even that gem of a book.
However, the customization options similarly provide some seriously cool tricks: Want to play Scarecrow from Batman? Yup. Cultist leader? Yep. Eat books and draw strength from it? Yeah. Amnesiac psychic? Yup. As a whole, covering archetypes and feats would obviously bloat the book beyond compare - but one crucial point as opposed to most books of this size lies in the big C-word - consistency. There are no overpowered options here...and neither are there options that you'd consider to be subpar traps sans value - there is some character concept, some specific thing that makes sense from a build and/or flavor perspective. (The options that I won't use will be the onmyoji, elemental annihilator, psychic duelist and kami medium - the Eastern-themed ones mainly since I prefer Interjection Games' take on the Onmyoji and its themes; the psychic duelist is a nice specialist, but doesn't blow me away. Finally, the annihilator...well, I have 3pp options that are more versatile.) - notice something? My criticism here pertains mostly taste.
Now this alone does make the book shine very much for me; at the same time, I wouldn't be me if I didn't have complaints, right? So there we go: The book contains various pieces of advice and alternate rules/subsystems of the material and one would by psychic duels...which are generally an awesome idea and provide for cool, creative minigames when handled right. Alas, the spell used to start them, instigate psychic duel, pretty much is a save-or-suck option, since the affected target has the save...and while the duel is in process, the target cannot move...which allows allies to stab the foe to bits. Oddly, the instigator of such a duel can end it via a Will-save as per the spell, when the psychic duel-rules do not mention such an option for the affected character - this is intended, undoubtedly, since those caught in a duel can be shaken out of it. At the same time, I think that pretty basic modifications could have prevented that little lockdown-aspect: For example, taking a penalty on MP to be capable of at least utilizing a fraction of the action array available...you know, moving slowly towards the instigator while battling him in the duel, maintaining at least defenses...the like. Granted, the system is optional and can be modified rather easily, but I'm still somewhat astonished that this very basic strategy was not used, particularly after the complaints the slumber hex etc. received. Still, this represents a relatively minor issue when seen in relation to the number of things that *do* work pretty perfectly...and the fact that psychic duels work infinitely better than 3.X's mindscapes and similar tricks.
Once again, the storytelling potential is what sells this on me. Beyond the copious GM-advice, the book contains some information on esoteric planes like the akashic record, the positive/negative energy plane and the like - which I generally enjoyed. At the same time, I did feel like the book could have done a little bit more with unique planar features for some of them, since not all receive this component in detail. Of course gear, both mundane and magical, can be found in this tome - from the phrenologist's kit (phrenology being the by now debunked belief that the size and shape of the skull influences personality etc. - and yes, there's a feat inspired by it here!) to the Dorian Gray-ish pictures, we notice one thing - the items, much like a ton of material herein, is steeped in a sense of the real, in the occult traditions and pseudo-science of days gone by.
What do I mean by this? Take alchemy, an established concept in our fantasy games. If you have the stamina to power through them, I'd sincerely suggest getting a copy of the writings of real world alchemists, sit down with the cool alchemy recipes and start - I guarantee you'll come up with new and evocative material. A similar observation can be made here - the tying into concepts and ideas established in our world generates basically the largest hand-out you could fathom and some research will almost assuredly provide a vast selection of truly evocative concepts to represent, while also teaching something new along the way. You do not have to be interested in masons, OTO, etc. to enjoy this book - but you can draw upon esoteric and occult knowledge to enrich the game tremendously. Heck, I'm pretty much a nihilistic atheist and my fascination with the subject matter stems from a purely intellectual point of view, but I still appreciate all the ideas and their impact on the genesis of our mode of thought. Similarly, the idea of locus spirits, of tapping into ley lines and similar high-concept tricks complement an implied world-building and -conception that goes beyond the surface, that extends into a level of depth beyond the superficial pushing of numbers.
Don't take it the wrong way. You can have tons of fun with this book in other games. I played a mesmerist and it was hilarious, had a whole Doctor Orpheus thing going on. The Kineticist can be flavored a little and it basically becomes a bender from Avatar! How freaking cool is that?!
There are quite a few spells and special abilities that feel like they can only come in handy in very specific ways though. All the mindscape things would almost never come up in a regular game. This feels very much like a book that would be a lot more fun if all your players HAD to take a class from this book, which is a terrible premise for a core book.
On a personal note, almost none of these classes work with Mythic Adventures...
Really, nothing in this book is bad overall, and while there's a few mechanics that I would like to change, it's not enough to change my thoughts. The psychic casters are interesting with different mechanics that still feel familiar, and everything else works very well. I'd say it's worth picking up.
Finally psychic powers makes it's way to Pathfinder
I have been waiting for psychic related rules for Pathfinder for a long time and I am happy for what I see.
Kineticist- This one has become one of my favorite classes with it's all day blasting and at will/always active spell powers and supernatural abilities. I would love to see more classes that focuses on spell powers and supernatural abilities then just spellcasters, martials, and skill monkeys.
Medium- While I am not big on this one, it does have some interesting flavor and good story ideas. My only problem is it is one of the more complex classes.
Mesmerist- I like this one, it is a debuffer counter part to the bard and also makes a great villain. It is also a good spiritual successor for the Beguiler class.
Occultist- As with the Medium interesting flavor and good story value but complex mechanically. Not one my favorites but like all classes in this book, it fills a niche.
Psychic- Interesting class and fills the 9th caster for psychic magic but lacks in the flavor/story department compared to the other 5 classes. Still a solid class with some interesting abilities.
Spiritualist- One of my favorite classes has good flavor/story value and is not as complicated to use as the Medium and Occultist. A great class when dealing with incorporeal creatures especially undead.
These classes are just the tip of the iceberg, we get rules for auras, chakras, psychic duels, possession, occult rituals, occult skill unlocks, loci spirits, ley lines, mindscapes, and more. This one is as useful as the APG and the ARG.
Occult Adventures is a great addition to the Pathfinder game. It does more than just introduce a bunch of new classes and create Pathfinder's version of psionics. It adds a whole new flavour and style of campaign with new rules options that back that flavour up. I eagerly look forward to trying out some of its ideas in a future campaign.
That's a tier 9 mythic ability though. If you're dying to things that won't outright negate the ability (coup de grace or critical from any mythic or anyone with a weapon that can bypass epic) there's something seriously wrong with your character build.
That's a tier 9 mythic ability though. If you're dying to things that won't outright negate the ability (coup de grace or critical from any mythic or anyone with a weapon that can bypass epic) there's something seriously wrong with your character build.
Maybe it's intended for players who have games where character death is pretty common. Not everyone plays the game the same way, I for one think that the feat sounds like a lot of fun. My enemies are going to think twice if I tell them I'll explode when I die, and now I don't have to lie about it!
can someone who already has the bood how the mesmerist turned out?
I'm happy with it! Implanted tricks stick around for a long time, and you get a good spell list.
Things I like-
"KNEEL BEFORE ZOD!" (Castigate spell)
Level 1 Disguise Other ability (Fearsome Guise trick)
Cha to will saves
Shut down casters and specialty builds (Mental Block)
Give martial buddies a mini-charge (ala Quickrunner's Shirt, Compel Alarcity)
Early access Suggestion.
Access to possession spells, even if they're a little late.
It's time to (psychic) d-d-d-duel! (Instigate Psychic Duel spell)
Jamie Charlan wrote:
A feat that only does something when you croak is NOT a good feat unless you've more bonus feats than a fighter and don't *need* as many as they do.
The greatest thing a character can accomplish is to be remembered and talked about after the game is done*. A feat that guarantees that a character's death will be memorable is a good feat.
*If you don't feel the same way, that's very reasonable, and the feat may not be a good feat for you.
EDIT: Now I somehow want to get a Linnorm Death Curse Rage Power on the same character, so that whoever killed you saves vs. fire vulnerability as you turn into your own funeral pyre.
EDIT, PART TWO: High level Pyrokineticists can resurrect themselves, so you can use this repeatedly.
That's a tier 9 mythic ability though. If you're dying to things that won't outright negate the ability (coup de grace or critical from any mythic or anyone with a weapon that can bypass epic) there's something seriously wrong with your character build.
Maybe it's intended for players who have games where character death is pretty common. Not everyone plays the game the same way, I for one think that the feat sounds like a lot of fun. My enemies are going to think twice if I tell them I'll explode when I die, and now I don't have to lie about it!
Or maybe it's not even meant for player characters.
A number of my games have no ressurection, or it's very, very difficult as in "do you really want to have a minicampaign or just roll up another character." In a setting like that, "I blow up to annoy my enemies" might be a good feat.
Or, you could use it in a setting where getting your body taken by the bad guys is a VERY BAD IDEA.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Maps, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Dragon78 wrote:
When a infusion or utility wild talent states a level such as 4th what level can you actually take that ability?
Atleast twice the level of any wild talent save for 1st level wild talents which can be taken at 1st level. So 4th level for 2nd level wild talents and so on. Essentially Sorcerer spell levels.
Are there any new Kineticist feat? (Other than the Extra Talents?)
Thanks!
(3 more days...)
Yes! And they are very classy.
- Delay your blast for a few rounds. I really like that you can do it as often as you like with no burn cost.
- Teamwork feat to combine your basic blast with another Kineticist to form a composite blast! This one is really cool and lets you get up to some fun shenanigans. It's a great way for earth/water/air blast kineticists to team up to stomp all over DR, fire a line effect down a hallway without exposing yourself, and play around with composite blasts without actually getting them.
- Counter opposite elemental abilities (Fire vs water/ice and vice versa only) like breath weapons or other blasts.
- Get a big bonus on your jumps once per day by doing a kinetic rocket jump. One point of burn, and it's at-will for the whole day.
- Rig your body to explode violently if you die. Pros: no-save no-miss damage on anybody who makes the mistake of murdering you in melee, great way to go out with a bang. Cons: You're going to be a lot harder to resurrect now.
Are there any new Kineticist feat? (Other than the Extra Talents?)
Thanks!
(3 more days...)
Yes! And they are very classy.
- Delay your blast for a few rounds. I really like that you can do it as often as you like with no burn cost.
- Teamwork feat to combine your basic blast with another Kineticist to form a composite blast! This one is really cool and lets you get up to some fun shenanigans. It's a great way for earth/water/air blast kineticists to team up to stomp all over DR, fire a line effect down a hallway without exposing yourself, and play around with composite blasts without actually getting them.
- Counter opposite elemental abilities (Fire vs water/ice and vice versa only) like breath weapons or other blasts.
- Get a big bonus on your jumps once per day by doing a kinetic rocket jump. One point of burn, and it's at-will for the whole day.
- Rig your body to explode violently if you die. Pros: no-save no-miss damage on anybody who makes the mistake of murdering you in melee, great way to go out with a bang. Cons: You're going to be a lot harder to resurrect now.
These sound awesome!
There's also beautiful half-page pictures of the second and third feats mentioned, each of which I almost picked for the blog (but had to go with the ascetic in the end).
High level Pyrokineticists can resurrect themselves, so you can use this repeatedly.
From the Ashes doesn't technically involve you dying at any point, and Parting Blast requires your death. But I hope they're intended to work together, cause that'd be super cool.
How high level is that mental landscape creating spell? Might be useful for creating fantasy-cyberspace.
Create mindscape is a 4th-level spell for mediums, mesmerists, and psychics, and a 5th-level spell for sorcerers and wizards. Greater create mindscape is a 6th-level spell for mediums and mesmerists, and a 7th-level spell for sorcerers and wizards.
Samy wrote:
Is there any archetype to reduce Psychic MAD so she can just rely on Int?
No. Amnesiac just alters spellcasting, Formless Adept does trade out its psychic discipline but still has a Charisma-based phrenic pool, Mutation Mind adds bodily mutations to things it can get in addition to phrenic amplifications, and the Psychic Duelist adds manifestation amplifications to things it can get in addition to phrenic amplifications.
Here's a question for the devs. A number of feats (Psychic Combatant, Psychic Defender, Shatter Mental Mask) require either Psychic Sensitivity, the ability to cast psychic spells, or the ability to use psychic spell-like abilities. However, the ability to use occult skill unlocks lists either Psychic Sensitivity or the ability to cast psychic spells. Is the intent that kineticists are supposed to need to take Psychic Sensitivity to utilize occult skill unlocks, or was it an oversight, and having psychic spell-like abilities should allow them to utilize said occult skill unlocks without needing a feat?
That's a tier 9 mythic ability though. If you're dying to things that won't outright negate the ability (coup de grace or critical from any mythic or anyone with a weapon that can bypass epic) there's something seriously wrong with your character build.
Maybe it's intended for players who have games where character death is pretty common. Not everyone plays the game the same way, I for one think that the feat sounds like a lot of fun. My enemies are going to think twice if I tell them I'll explode when I die, and now I don't have to lie about it!
Or maybe it's not even meant for player characters.
My thoughts exactly; my first thought was "oh, this would be a hilarious thing for a GM to pull on their players". The rest of the Kineticist feats look like genuinely usable options so I'm quite fine with this one only being good for GM's.
Here's a question for the devs. A number of feats (Psychic Combatant, Psychic Defender, Shatter Mental Mask) require either Psychic Sensitivity, the ability to cast psychic spells, or the ability to use psychic spell-like abilities. However, the ability to use occult skill unlocks lists either Psychic Sensitivity or the ability to cast psychic spells. Is the intent that kineticists are supposed to need to take Psychic Sensitivity to utilize occult skill unlocks, or was it an oversight, and having psychic spell-like abilities should allow them to utilize said occult skill unlocks without needing a feat?
Yes, that was something I pointed out (the original versions of the feats never included psychic SLAs in the prereqs), and so we had a discussion on whether to include kineticists, and most of the feats got a "Yes" and added the SLAs into the mix, but not all.
Here's a question for the devs. A number of feats (Psychic Combatant, Psychic Defender, Shatter Mental Mask) require either Psychic Sensitivity, the ability to cast psychic spells, or the ability to use psychic spell-like abilities. However, the ability to use occult skill unlocks lists either Psychic Sensitivity or the ability to cast psychic spells. Is the intent that kineticists are supposed to need to take Psychic Sensitivity to utilize occult skill unlocks, or was it an oversight, and having psychic spell-like abilities should allow them to utilize said occult skill unlocks without needing a feat?
Yes, that was something I pointed out (the original versions of the feats never included psychic SLAs in the prereqs), and so we had a discussion on whether to include kineticists, and most of the feats got a "Yes" and added the SLAs into the mix, but not all.
Yeah, I just thought I remembered occult skill unlocks being for kineticist, and was surprised to not see the spell-like ability wording...in particular, I was thinking dowsing for water and minerals worked well for hydrokineticists and geokineticists respectively, and prognostication (pyromancy) worked well for pyromancers (and even though it wasn't listed as one of the more common methods, hydromancy and lithomancy are things too). I was hoping that that was just an oversight, but ah, well, can still probably afford to spend a feat for more mystical kineticists...even if I was hoping I didn't need to!
Specific question I know, but for those of us who DON'T have a copy yet (and Wednesday is so far away!), how are the archetypes for the Rogue, Paladin, and Sorcerer? Can you use the new archetype(s) with the unchained rogue?
Specific question I know, but for those of us who DON'T have a copy yet (and Wednesday is so far away!), how are the archetypes for the Rogue, Paladin, and Sorcerer? Can you use the new archetype(s) with the unchained rogue?
The rogue archetypes should work with the unchained rogue only one possible problem and that is the false medium replaces trap sense which the unchained rogue does not have, unchained rogue has danger sense which is pretty much the same thing so just talk to your GM.
I really like the escapologist rogue archetype. It allows you to use escape artist much more. False medium is ok not my favorite. Paladins ghost hunter is cool more useful vs. undead then normal. Sorcerer Bloodlines are cool, some really cool abilities like thought sense as a constant ability (thought sense is like blindsight) upto 30ft. and who does not like ectoplasmic tentacles lol.
I'm a little surprised that the Occultist doesn't have a rouge-ish flavored archetype with the trapfinding and magic trap disabling abilities. With their focus on retrieving historically significant objects, abilities to circumvent traps seem thematic to me. Indiana Jones is an example that springs to mind. I was hoping for an occult version of the Archaeologist Bard. But I suppose that we need reasons to look forward to future books. :)
I don't think anyone has talked about the Occultist's new Magic Circle abilities. Do they look good? Are there any interesting details that weren't mentioned in the blog?
I really don't like the Burn mechanics. As it stands the Kineticist does the same amount of damage as an Expert with a bow without that Burn, and the whole concept of the "Risk vs Reward" system, while a great idea, is horribly implemented. You shouldn't be having to knock yourself unconscious everytime you want to perform a decent amount of damage.
Now, I was discussing the Kinetecist with some associates, and one of them suggested a different way of handling the Burn mechanic that, allows he Kineticist to be more competent, while still giving a sense of "Risk vs Reward". The following are his words, and are quite an elegant solution.
an acquaintance wrote:
They probably wanted burn to be a 'risk' mechanic, after playing too much... I'd wager Age of Reckoning (brightwizards, or their lesser inferior cousins the sorcerers who are flatly weaker in every way because they don't use fire... which would explain the talent list here)
I'd say let it all build up:
>Burn is REAL damage. It cannot be prevented or redirected in any way, BUT IT CAN HEAL.
>Burn damage equals the current level of burn, squared. So you won't take 100 until you build up 10 burn (which 5 would give you at level 20).
>Burn isn't suffered right away. Build up your burn and enjoy the bonuses. BUT: Any time you get a result of a natural 1 (so, use them rerolls if you have'em), all accumulated burn hits you full blast. So the higher level you get, the more damage you can be willing to risk, rather than the more you take for the same action.
>You can spend a standard action to reduce your current burn level by up to 1/4 your class level. Bonuses do go down, naturally, though, from vaporizing it off.
>Add a heat-beam talent that lets you lower your burn through a regular blast: Can't use any other infusions but add your current burn (pre-beam-drop) to the damage.
That way, if you're going to f!++ing explode yourself (f*ck that feat), it'll be from going f*cking nuclear.
hopefully this can aid in dragging the poor Kineticist out of the dregs of being a Tier 6 class.
Aside from that, I really love the Spiritualist, and all the Archetypes sound fun. Can't wait to go all Joseph Joestar with the Ectoplasmist. Plus the new Fighter Archetype is actually somewhat serviceable, which is a real shocker, even if it feels like a watered down Barbarian. As for Psychic, I'm just going to ignore it in favor of the less Overpowered Psion from Dreamscarred Press. Also Ghost Rider sounds fun as hell.
I think this book offers a radically different take on what it means to be "Psychic" that has never been a part of any roleplaying game. It is interesting in its own way. I like the classes and appreciate the differences from other classes. I enjoyed the non-Sci-fi spin and "blending" of psi into pathfinder in this non disruptive way.
I noticed a lack of new races, race options, and traits; is this part of another book? what is the title? when is it coming out?
Where is the clairvoyant and/or precognitive character type? 2nd edition had a few interesting powers for this type of character. there are a number of ways to provide a group support in the healing department - that's good. what about the raw combat department?
a Combat Precognitive archetype for the brawler perhaps?
The bard class seems perfect to strip of all performance skill, performance abilities, lore/knowledge abilities, and spell casting to make a different kind of psychic class.
For that matter so can the ranger; dump terrain and favored foes, lose the combat styles, dump spell casting, and make a front line psychic combatant. While the monk dabbles in some mysticism (I do like the Monk wisdom AC bonus) I feel that this ability would be suited to a kind of "Psychic Kensai" based on the framework of the ranger class.
I am looking forward to player made guides, optimizations, and so forth for this book. Especially for the kineticist - elemental ascetic as I am uncertain of what it has lost. Can someone clear this up for me and show me in writing what is left useable?
I really like this, actually. It rewards risking the burn without making you commit suicide by using your class features. I'm probably gonna steal this for my games. It doesn't solve the other issue (expert with a bow does comparable damage), but it's a very good step.
I'd say it's more a low 5 than 6: It can do its job passably at the cost of an entire build, but will be - as a result - rather bad at most other things that could need doing.
Although the Soul archetype probably drags it back down, and if it didn't have infusion specialization it would definitely be a 6.
Nevertheless, T5 is NOT where anything should land, especially as a result of base design. That's a good fix; lets one spread out a little more without becoming crap at output.
@ psyrus
you are aware the Psionics were also a thing in 3.5, right? Further right now the Psychic spells in this book kinda just feel like another form of the normal casing we're use to.
If you want, Dreamscarred Press has already converted most of the Psionics stuff from 3.5 over to PF, along with a lot of new content, and you can look at it for free since they have their own section of the SRD. Overall they have stuff for all the things you mentioned, and in a way that feels, at least somewhat, different from the usual Vancian Casters.
I think this book offers a radically different take on what it means to be "Psychic" that has never been a part of any roleplaying game. It is interesting in its own way. I like the classes and appreciate the differences from other classes. I enjoyed the non-Sci-fi spin and "blending" of psi into pathfinder in this non disruptive way.
I noticed a lack of new races, race options, and traits; is this part of another book? what is the title? when is it coming out?
Generally speaking races and race options are not included in class focused books. Instead new races usually debut in the Bestiaries. IIRC, there are psychic variants of Duergar and Samsarans, as well as a new race, in Occult Bestiary, while Bestiary 5 might also have more psychic friendly races (?)
To be fair, I doubt anyone doesn't know about that. The psychic in particular felt like a kneejerk "it absolutely can't be anything like psionics in order to be psionics" reaction to folks wanting psionics yet adamantly refusing to touch any 3PP.
This will probably ensure it does in fact sell well, but it's strange as all **** that this even had to be done that way.
I don't own the book yet but some of the things I have read have really piqued my interest. From the playtest, I loved the Spiritualist so I am looking forward to how that evolved.
My first love for character classes will always be Bard, and I am intrigued by the Silver Balladeer (I'll have to read the Silver John series now...).
The ones I have read were all excellent stories. I'm glad that you mentioned them. Now that the internet exists, I might be able to find some that I never could before.
I think this book offers a radically different take on what it means to be "Psychic" that has never been a part of any roleplaying game. It is interesting in its own way. I like the classes and appreciate the differences from other classes. I enjoyed the non-Sci-fi spin and "blending" of psi into pathfinder in this non disruptive way.
I like the flavor. It feels new, but has just enough of a nod to 1st edition psionics to make me happily nostalgic. Having never played 3.x versions of the game, I'm unfamiliar with those psionic rules. From the comments, it seems that this new approach is a bit of a let-down for those who did.
I really don't like the Burn mechanics. As it stands the Kineticist does the same amount of damage as an Expert with a bow without that Burn, and the whole concept of the "Risk vs Reward" system, while a great idea, is horribly implemented. You shouldn't be having to knock yourself unconscious everytime you want to perform a decent amount of damage.
- Move action to reduce burn (allowing for free Empower and eventually free Maximize).
- Infusion specialization greatly reduces high-level burn.
- If Aether takes a point of burn, it refills its temporary hitpoint pool the same amount.
- Every point of Con bonus over what you'd normally have can be treated as a free point of burn to spend, and Toughness is a once-only Extra Burn feat.
- As you level up, 3rd, 5th, and 7th points of burn don't count because they're negated by +2 Con. So 100 points of nonlethal from your starting hp at 20 would actually be 8 burn- not far from your model. (Plus, it comes with a total of +8 to hit and +15 damage, and a 40% chance to negate crits and sneak attacks.)
In addition…
- Low feat investment. (Just enough get Precise Shot.)
- Better to-hit.
- Burn-free utility options include things like at-will telekinesis, constant flight, and unlimited line-of-effect teleportation.
Plus…
- Don't like burn? Overwhelming Soul gives you the bonus to attack and damage (minus stat changes) for free, plus a few points of burn to spend without taking damage.
- Want another option? Elemental Annihilator gets full BAB attack in melee using a weapon that runs on Con rather than Str.
3.5 fixed a lot, and gave the system you more or less see also in the DSP stuff here. The classes were weaker than core stuff, but were much more solid.
Here, you have points per day, Focus, and a hardcoded limit: NO MORE POINTS PER MANIFESTATION THAN YOUR MANIFESTER LEVEL, PERIOD. Even things that let you go above your level do so by raising your manifester level temporarily.
Power Points: You use those to fire off regular powers like you would spells, except they don't auto-scale with level. Powers cost 1, +2 per level above 1st.
Do note they don't auto-scale: Just because you're level 10 doesn't mean your energy ball deals 10d6 now. It still deals the 5d6 it started with unless you pay extra points to augment it. Metapsionics not only cost points (so brushing up towards that hard limit), but also use your focus, which is a full round action to recover (or move with a certain feat you really oughta get) and while up it powers several feats and effects, so focus is pretty important and can't just be spent whenever. It also means that until you can get a second focus (specific feat chains, and never a third) you can never do something like twinned-quickened casting. A wizard is NOT you.
Focus: If you have a power pool, you generate focus. Focus powers most psionic feats, and can be expended for extra stuff. But then its gone. If you have an 'active element', such as a kineticist, your active element is picked whenever you gain focus. Psionic Shot is a focus example: you get +1 damage while focused with ranged attacks, but can expend it to instead deal +2d6 on that shot.
So there's a lot of dynamic use of your power pool; while very limited in ways that prevent even the Psion (2nd tier, most powerful psi class outright) from EVER even being able to pretend you compare favorably to a sorcerer, oracle, or the true Prepared Casters, but within your limits, you can adapt to the situation almost on the fly, and modify your powers quite a bit to suit your needs.
Although you always, always have to pay for it.
So yeah, in comparison, the Psychic in OA is uh... Well there's a reason many of us go "just another vancian full caster"
I really don't like the Burn mechanics. As it stands the Kineticist does the same amount of damage as an Expert with a bow without that Burn, and the whole concept of the "Risk vs Reward" system, while a great idea, is horribly implemented. You shouldn't be having to knock yourself unconscious everytime you want to perform a decent amount of damage.
- Move action to reduce burn (allowing for free Empower and eventually free Maximize).
- Infusion specialization greatly reduces high-level burn.
- If Aether takes a point of burn, it refills its temporary hitpoint pool the same amount.
- Every point of Con bonus over what you'd normally have can be treated as a free point of burn to spend, and Toughness is a once-only Extra Burn feat.
- As you level up, 3rd, 5th, and 7th points of burn don't count because they're negated by +2 Con. So 100 points of nonlethal from your starting hp at 20 would actually be 8 burn- not far from your model. (Plus, it comes with a total of +8 to hit and +15 damage, and a 40% chance to negate crits and sneak attacks.)
In addition…
- Low feat investment. (Just enough get Precise Shot.)
- Better to-hit.
- Burn-free utility options include things like at-will telekinesis, constant flight, and unlimited line-of-effect teleportation.
Plus…
- Don't like burn? Overwhelming Soul gives you the bonus to attack and damage (minus stat changes) for free, plus a few points of burn to spend without taking damage.
- Want another option? Elemental Annihilator gets full BAB attack in melee using a weapon that runs on Con rather than Str.
3.5 fixed a lot, and gave the system you more or less see also in the DSP stuff here. The classes were weaker than core stuff, but were much more solid.
Here, you have points per day, Focus, and a hardcoded limit: NO MORE POINTS PER MANIFESTATION THAN YOUR MANIFESTER LEVEL, PERIOD. Even things that let you go above your level do so by raising your manifester level temporarily.
Power Points: You use those to fire off regular powers like you would spells, except they don't auto-scale with level. Powers cost 1, +2 per level above 1st.
Do note they don't auto-scale: Just because you're level 10 doesn't mean your energy ball deals 10d6 now. It still deals the 5d6 it started with unless you pay extra points to augment it. Metapsionics not only cost points (so brushing up towards that hard limit), but also use your focus, which is a full round action to recover (or move with a certain feat you really oughta get) and while up it powers several feats and effects, so focus is pretty important and can't just be spent whenever. It also means that until you can get a second focus (specific feat chains, and never a third) you can never do something like twinned-quickened casting. A wizard is NOT you.
Focus: If you have a power pool, you generate focus. Focus powers most psionic feats, and can be expended for extra stuff. But then its gone. If you have an 'active element', such as a kineticist, your active element is picked whenever you gain focus. Psionic Shot is a focus example: you get +1 damage while focused with ranged attacks, but can expend it to instead deal +2d6 on that shot.
So there's a lot of dynamic use of your power pool; while very limited in ways that prevent even the Psion (2nd tier, most powerful psi class outright) from EVER even being able to pretend you compare favorably to a sorcerer, oracle, or the true Prepared Casters, but within your limits, you can adapt to the situation almost on the fly, and modify your powers quite a bit to suit your needs....
I also think the 3.5 psionic system is really neat! Ask me about my last big 3.5 campaign some time (though in another thread). So much psionics in there! (including, but not limited to, a seer, wilder, and psychic warrior PCs, telepath cohort, and a psionic BBEG) People who like the idea of psionics should check it out. Occult Adventures has a different vibe and atmosphere. I think people should check it out too. Heck, a super-awesome idea would be a campaign setting where the Occult classes are the only options for spellcasters, the psionic classes are in there too, and then no wizard, cleric, etc. Could be a neat combo!
- Move action to reduce burn (allowing for free Empower and eventually free Maximize).
- Infusion specialization greatly reduces high-level burn.
- If Aether takes a point of burn, it refills its temporary hitpoint pool the same amount.
- Every point of Con bonus over what you'd normally have can be treated as a free point of burn to spend, and Toughness is a once-only Extra Burn feat.
- As you level up, 3rd, 5th, and 7th points of burn don't count because they're negated by +2 Con. So 100 points of nonlethal from your starting hp at 20 would actually be 8 burn- not far from your model. (Plus, it comes with a total of +8 to hit and +15 damage, and a 40% chance to negate crits and sneak attacks.)
In addition…
- Low feat investment. (Just enough get Precise Shot.)
- Better to-hit.
- Burn-free utility options include things like at-will telekinesis, constant flight, and unlimited line-of-effect teleportation.
Plus…
- Don't like burn? Overwhelming Soul gives you the bonus to attack and damage (minus stat changes) for free, plus a few points of burn to spend without taking damage.
- Want another option? Elemental Annihilator gets full BAB attack in melee using a weapon that runs on Con rather than Str.
All great points, my only wish is that for some of the forms to either be more accessible vs locked to an element type or come online a little earlier. Other than that it looks you can make some very effective builds. I hope they expand the powers over time or give new elements.
- Move action to reduce burn (allowing for free Empower and eventually free Maximize).
- Infusion specialization greatly reduces high-level burn.
- If Aether takes a point of burn, it refills its temporary hitpoint pool the same amount.
- Every point of Con bonus over what you'd normally have can be treated as a free point of burn to spend, and Toughness is a once-only Extra Burn feat.
- As you level up, 3rd, 5th, and 7th points of burn don't count because they're negated by +2 Con. So 100 points of nonlethal from your starting hp at 20 would actually be 8 burn- not far from your model. (Plus, it comes with a total of +8 to hit and +15 damage, and a 40% chance to negate crits and sneak attacks.)
In addition…
- Low feat investment. (Just enough get Precise Shot.)
- Better to-hit.
- Burn-free utility options include things like at-will telekinesis, constant flight, and unlimited line-of-effect teleportation.
Plus…
- Don't like burn? Overwhelming Soul gives you the bonus to attack and damage (minus stat changes) for free, plus a few points of burn to spend without taking damage.
- Want another option? Elemental Annihilator gets full BAB attack in melee using a weapon that runs on Con rather than Str.
All great points, my only wish is that for some of the forms to either be more accessible vs locked to an element type or come online a little earlier. Other than that it looks you can make some very effective builds. I hope they expand the powers over time or give new elements.
I will say only this: I have asked the fine folks on the development team to keep me apprised of kineticist-related topics, and as such, I can tell you that not only did Owen have something amazing planned for kineticists in Occult Origins, that I was like "Yes, let me write that for you please!" but also, he agreed, and furthermore, he went the extra mile got extra wordcount for it in order to make sure it could keep its full potential of extra awesome (initial wordcount estimate would have been too tight to do what you're going to get in that book justice). I won't spoil Owen's (and my) surprise for you, but I can say that it's going to be really fun!
So, does the PDF open up for digital purchase at Midnight PST on Wednesday? Because if that's normal practice I'm staying up late tomorrow to buy it.
That has been standard operating procedure as long as I've been buying them. It sometimes takes a while to get through the process since the servers get bogged down with all of the simultaneous requests.
So, does the PDF open up for digital purchase at Midnight PST on Wednesday? Because if that's normal practice I'm staying up late tomorrow to buy it.
That has been standard operating procedure as long as I've been buying them. It sometimes takes a while to get through the process since the servers get bogged down with all of the simultaneous requests.
Yup. I can't say I wouldn't have been doing the same thing back when I didn't work here, if I hadn't been a subscriber. However, if you're in like EST, get some sleep and stay healthy instead of staying up til 3AM. It'll be there for you in the morning :) (And hey, you can wake up early too, I guess!)
- Move action to reduce burn (allowing for free Empower and eventually free Maximize).
- Infusion specialization greatly reduces high-level burn.
- If Aether takes a point of burn, it refills its temporary hitpoint pool the same amount.
- Every point of Con bonus over what you'd normally have can be treated as a free point of burn to spend, and Toughness is a once-only Extra Burn feat.
- As you level up, 3rd, 5th, and 7th points of burn don't count because they're negated by +2 Con. So 100 points of nonlethal from your starting hp at 20 would actually be 8 burn- not far from your model. (Plus, it comes with a total of +8 to hit and +15 damage, and a 40% chance to negate crits and sneak attacks.)
In addition…
- Low feat investment. (Just enough get Precise Shot.)
- Better to-hit.
- Burn-free utility options include things like at-will telekinesis, constant flight, and unlimited line-of-effect teleportation.
Plus…
- Don't like burn? Overwhelming Soul gives you the bonus to attack and damage (minus stat changes) for free, plus a few points of burn to spend without taking damage.
- Want another option? Elemental Annihilator gets full BAB attack in melee using a weapon that runs on Con rather than Str.
All great points, my only wish is that for some of the forms to either be more accessible vs locked to an element type or come online a little earlier. Other than that it looks you can make some very effective builds. I hope they expand the powers over time or give new elements.
I will say only this: I have asked the fine folks on the development team to keep me apprised of kineticist-related topics, and as such, I can tell you that not only did Owen have something amazing planned for kineticists in Occult Origins, that I was like "Yes, let me write that for you please!" but also, he agreed, and furthermore, he went the extra mile got extra wordcount for it in order to make sure it could keep its full potential. I won't spoil Owen's (and...
Why did you let them kill the kineticist, Mark? That playtest thread had 4,000+ posts alone, detailed feedback from hundreds of people, and the entire board had at least 50+ other threads with breakdowns of how the class did.
Everyone who looked at the class said that Burn should be replaced by a different mechanic, and that it wasn't worth it for what it does. And that's exactly the case. Even spending as much burn as you can, the class doesn't do comparable output in any category to any other class. It does not compete in damage, utility, crowd-control, debuffing, healing, buffing, summoning, mobility, social, or stealth. It doesn't do any of those roles well, even.
Even with houserules that fairly strict GMs might allow, the class still underperforms by a severe amount.
Archetypes made for it have abilities that should have been things the class was allowed to do from the start, like the Annihilator having full BaB and getting to do flurries of blasts.
And for that matter, why is Flurry of Blasts from the base abilities so absolutely god-awful? It can't multi-stack debuffs, it does abysmal damage, it's not even as good as the other blast shapes at spreading debufs around. The ONLY decent use for it seems to be Pushing Infusion, and even that isn't particularly impressive.
Why does it feel like this class got ignored and thrown under the bus despite having around twenty entire pages of features? People were looking forward to it. They were excited. You were GOOD in the playtest threads, you supported people, you were reasonable and friendly and helpful and you gave us hope that the Kineticist might be passable, at least that it might be a low Tier 4 class, or at minimum high Tier 5, but it isn't. I feel bad saying it, but this is the single biggest disappointment that I have seen come out of Paizo in the entire time that I have played this game, all the way back through 3.5 with Dungeon and Dragon Magazine.
The quality of this game and the developers of it, at least aside from you Mark, have been declining rapidly for quite some time. Books have been printed with massive, sweeping errors. Errata gets pushed out that was never needed in the first place, while blatantly overpowered classes and abilities are left untouched.
Why? What happened? You all were supposed to be the people who kept 3.5 going and made it good and fixed it, not the ones who looted it's corpse and raised it as a rotting zombie.
I'm not even mad at this point, anymore. I was at first when things started to decline, but now it's just... disappointment. The fans trusted you all, and you let us down.
Burn really isn't that big a deal. Once people actually play with the kineticist and bother to work in the action economy to gather energy, get infusion specialization to make the action economy even easier unless they'd also wanna use composite/metakinesis options and they'd have to still gather energy/superchage, and stop trying to play the kineticist as a supreme blaster without having to pay for it.
Spellcasters got limited spells per day and even more so with higher level spells. Kineticists get at-will scaling damage that one can pretty much infuse for free with gather energy+infusion specialization, they shouldn't be able to do composite damage all day. Burn damage that's healable? Folks will be screaming the kineticist is broke after it benefits from haste and kinetic whips combined with composite blasts for 2-3 attacks in a round + benefit from extended reach for AoOs in the same round. Cleric casts Heal and the kineticist loses all the burn damage so he can can do it again at no penalty? No thank you. I'd want my kineticist to not be boo'ed away from a table. That's like saying a level 9 wizard should get his expended level 5 spell back because he got healed and physically ready to cast it again.
Martials do more damage? Sure but kineticists do comparable damage at melee or ranged while still benefiting from almost at-will utility wild talents. At-will flight! At-will transform into an element with variable control on size! At-will ride the blast with extreme range talent basically equals at-will cool looking dimension door! That's just the playtest stuff, play the final book's wild talents and benefit from utility that no martial or caster can get on their own easily.
What's to stop a kineticist from going too crazy? Burn damage that actually matters and that players would self-regulate on their own at their own judgement. If a sorcerer can get back spell-slots per day by taking an equal amount of nonhealable nonlethal damage equal to spell slot level, they'd jump on that option but they won't overdo it. Kineticist burn damage is higher granted, but it's so easy to avoid and can still do decent damage (full attacking kinetic blade/whip, metakinesis empower and subscribers-know-what-else, supercharge gather energy+composite blasts as melee or ranged), that a small amount of nonlethal damage per burn is too negligable a limit.
They did not let me down in the slightest. DO I think it is perfect no but it does look like I can make interesting characters with this that I can not make with any other class. If they had followed what you wanted Goblinsaurus the board would be filled with cries of power creep and calls of why play any other class.
On the flip of this this is a role playing game, you don't like it change it. Not everything is going to be or needs to be balanced versus everything else. Going down that road leads to a boring game where everyone is the same with just different flavor text for powers.
Hahahaha. I love how there are different camps on this thread talking about how overpowered the kineticist is or how underpowered it is. It's like, I think it's a great class overall. Pretty neat.
Whoa there- lots of people liked the burn mechanic, and I'm personally very excited to play one or two Kineticist characters. (Air built around stealth and eventually suffocating people silently, and a trickster aether character.) Heck, if anybody tells me they want to play a healer, I'm going to point them to this class first. You're free to not like it, but please don't say that he let "us" down.
