Pathfinder Roleplaying Game: Advanced Class Guide (OGL)

Tels wrote:

Ashram wrote:

Tels wrote:

It'd be like if the introduced a Wizard that can't use a staff, or wand.

Or retracted the 50% damage benefit of two-handed weapons.

Not the same. See, the Rapier is absolutely *the* iconic Swashbuckling weapon. The Swashbuckler, being an agile and dexterous combatant, and the rapier being an agile blade which the Lightsaber (an elegant weapon of a more civilized age) was based off of. So it would make sense that the Swashbuckler would be able to use his Dexterity to deal damage with the Rapier.

But no. So the Swashbuckler can't use a rapier, the iconic swashbuckling weapon, as effectively as he can use a battle axe, or a longsword.

...sniped...

Is it such a big deal to pick up an agile enchantment?

Before ACG came out? No, it wasn't. After ACG came out in which we were promised a Dex to Damage feat for weapons like the rapier? Yes, it is a big deal. It's an insult to the portrayal of swashbucklers throughout film and literature history that they can't use rapiers with their dexterity, but can use a battleaxe instead.

The Swashbuckler was, arguably, the most requested and asked for class up until the ACG was announced. I find it to be a betrayal of the inspiration for the Swashbuckler that he can't use his iconic weapon.

I mean, Jirelle, the Iconic Swashbuckler for Pathfinder herself uses a rapier, but if she wants Dex to Damage for her rapier, she has to wait until 6th level. Or she can opt to use a battleaxe because it makes sense that the battleaxe is an elegant, graceful weapon used by those with great agility and speed.

It's kind of funny... People wanted a Dex to Damage feat because they didn't want to all be shoehorned into using the Scimitar with Dervish Dance, or be forced to wait until level 6+ to be able to deal Dex to Damage with their Swashbuckler...

So they make us a feat that makes Scimitar the best option in an entirely different way...

Congratulations, you don't have to take Dervish Dance. But you still have to use a Scimitar.

The cutlass also works and is even very thematic. Still doesn't excuse rapiers being worse than bastard swords, though.

Tels wrote:

It's kind of funny... People wanted a Dex to Damage feat because they didn't want to all be shoehorned into using the Scimitar with Dervish Dance, or be forced to wait until level 6+ to be able to deal Dex to Damage with their Swashbuckler...

So they make us a feat that makes Scimitar the best option in an entirely different way...

Congratulations, you don't have to take Dervish Dance. But you still have to use a Scimitar.

The cutlass also works ans is even very thematic. Still doesn't excuse rapiers being worse than bastard swords, though.

I forgot about the cutlass, but since it's nothing less than a reskinned Scimitar, I usually don't count it.

I mean, Jirelle, the Iconic Swashbuckler for Pathfinder herself uses a rapier, but if she wants Dex to Damage for her rapier, she has to wait until 6th level. Or she can opt to use a battleaxe because it makes sense that the battleaxe is an elegant, graceful weapon used by those with great agility and speed.

I must have missed something. What happens at level 6?

Deadmanwalking wrote:

Tels wrote:

It's kind of funny... People wanted a Dex to Damage feat because they didn't want to all be shoehorned into using the Scimitar with Dervish Dance, or be forced to wait until level 6+ to be able to deal Dex to Damage with their Swashbuckler...

So they make us a feat that makes Scimitar the best option in an entirely different way...

Congratulations, you don't have to take Dervish Dance. But you still have to use a Scimitar.

The cutlass also works ans is even very thematic. Still doesn't excuse rapiers being worse than bastard swords, though.

I forgot about the cutlass, but since it's nothing less than a reskinned Scimitar, I usually don't count it.

That's fair mechanically. But this is primarily a thematic issue and it seems somewhat relevant there.

Tels wrote:

I mean, Jirelle, the Iconic Swashbuckler for Pathfinder herself uses a rapier, but if she wants Dex to Damage for her rapier, she has to wait until 6th level. Or she can opt to use a battleaxe because it makes sense that the battleaxe is an elegant, graceful weapon used by those with great agility and speed.

I must have missed something. What happens at level 6?

You have enough money for a +1 Agile Rapier. Theoretically, anyway.

Jinete wrote:

Tels wrote:

I mean, Jirelle, the Iconic Swashbuckler for Pathfinder herself uses a rapier, but if she wants Dex to Damage for her rapier, she has to wait until 6th level. Or she can opt to use a battleaxe because it makes sense that the battleaxe is an elegant, graceful weapon used by those with great agility and speed.

I must have missed something. What happens at level 6?

You have enough money for a +1 Agile Rapier. Theoretically, anyway.

Oh. Well I'm not a big fan of using magic items to achieve something that should have been a class ability.

I can see the reasoning behind slashing grace though. If they had a feat that lets you use dex to damage with rapiers every rogue and bard would pick it up without thinking twice. This way it's pretty much exclusive to the swashbuckler.

But since this is the case I don't understand why they didn't give it to the swashbuckler as a class feature. Level 3, or even level 5 would have been acceptable...

Deadmanwalking wrote:

Jinete wrote:

Tels wrote:

I mean, Jirelle, the Iconic Swashbuckler for Pathfinder herself uses a rapier, but if she wants Dex to Damage for her rapier, she has to wait until 6th level. Or she can opt to use a battleaxe because it makes sense that the battleaxe is an elegant, graceful weapon used by those with great agility and speed.

I must have missed something. What happens at level 6?

You have enough money for a +1 Agile Rapier. Theoretically, anyway.

Oh. Well I'm not a big fan of using magic items to achieve something that should have been a class ability.

I can see the reasoning behind slashing grace though. If they had a feat that lets you use dex to damage with rapiers every rogue and bard would pick it up without thinking twice. This way it's pretty much exclusive to the swashbuckler.

But since this is the case I don't understand why they didn't give it to the swashbuckler as a class feature. Level 3, or even level 5 would have been acceptable...

Swashbucklers don't get dex to damage with rapiers either. The feat, Slashing Grace, only allows dex to damage with one-handed slashing weapons. What Swashbucklers get, is Swashbuckler's Finesse, which is the ability to use dexterity for their attack rolls with any light or one-handed piercing weapon. Which, funnily enough, Slashing Graces allows you to treat any one-handed slashing weapon as if it were a one-handed piercing weapon for class abilities like Swashbucklers Finesse. So Swashbucklers can use a battleaxe, longsword, bastard sword etc. to add Dexterity to Attack rolls and Damage rolls.

But they can't use a rapier.

So Swashbucklers have to use a the agile enhancement just likes Rogues, and Bards do if they want dex to damage on rapiers.

Jinete wrote:

Deadmanwalking wrote:

Jinete wrote:

Tels wrote:

I mean, Jirelle, the Iconic Swashbuckler for Pathfinder herself uses a rapier, but if she wants Dex to Damage for her rapier, she has to wait until 6th level. Or she can opt to use a battleaxe because it makes sense that the battleaxe is an elegant, graceful weapon used by those with great agility and speed.

I must have missed something. What happens at level 6?

You have enough money for a +1 Agile Rapier. Theoretically, anyway.

Oh. Well I'm not a big fan of using magic items to achieve something that should have been a class ability.

I can see the reasoning behind slashing grace though. If they had a feat that lets you use dex to damage with rapiers every rogue and bard would pick it up without thinking twice. This way it's pretty much exclusive to the swashbuckler.

But since this is the case I don't understand why they didn't give it to the swashbuckler as a class feature. Level 3, or even level 5 would have been acceptable...

Swashbucklers don't get dex to damage with rapiers either. The feat, Slashing Grace, only allows dex to damage with one-handed slashing weapons. What Swashbucklers get, is Swashbuckler's Finesse, which is the ability to use dexterity for their attack rolls with any light or one-handed piercing weapon. Which, funnily enough, Slashing Graces allows you to treat any one-handed slashing weapon as if it were a one-handed piercing weapon for class abilities like Swashbucklers Finesse. So Swashbucklers can use a battleaxe, longsword, bastard sword etc. to add Dexterity to Attack rolls and Damage rolls.

But they can't use a rapier.

So Swashbucklers have to use a the agile enhancement just likes Rogues, and Bards do if they want dex to damage on rapiers.

I understand that, and it's a valid point from a flavor point of view.

However the scimitar/cutlass is mechanically the same weapon as the rapier, and swashbucklers are proficient in it. So this is nothing more than a feat tax for swashbucklers.

I mean, what are the other options? If they make a feat that lets you give dex to damage with finesse-able weapons other classes (rogue) would get it too easily. If they give it to the swashbuckler as a class feature then he gets dex damage AND precise strike, and they probably thought that that is too much power to be given "for free".

So they came up with this as the middle ground. Sadly, to me it feels a bit "clunky".

I mean, what are the other options? If they make a feat that lets you give dex to damage with finesse-able weapons other classes (rogue) would get it too easily. If they give it to the swashbuckler as a class feature then he gets dex damage AND precise strike, and they probably thought that that is too much power "for free".

So they came up with this as the middle ground. Sadly, to me it feels a bit "clunky".

I would not be averse at all to paying the same feat tax to get my rapier to have dex-to-damage. However, from every feedback we have gotten so far, this option was for some bizarre and impossible to understand reason not included in the book, while dwarven waraxes, bastard swords and the falcata were made more optimal for swashbucklers than the rapier.

There has to be some error here. Because otherwise this would feel like a deliberate insult to the iconic Swashbuckler fans. Hell, why even give Jirelle a rapier if she would be better served with a falcata or bastard sword, according to what the developers just gave us?

Tels wrote:

Jinete wrote:

Deadmanwalking wrote:

Jinete wrote:

Tels wrote:

I mean, Jirelle, the Iconic Swashbuckler for Pathfinder herself uses a rapier, but if she wants Dex to Damage for her rapier, she has to wait until 6th level. Or she can opt to use a battleaxe because it makes sense that the battleaxe is an elegant, graceful weapon used by those with great agility and speed.

I must have missed something. What happens at level 6?

You have enough money for a +1 Agile Rapier. Theoretically, anyway.

Oh. Well I'm not a big fan of using magic items to achieve something that should have been a class ability.

I can see the reasoning behind slashing grace though. If they had a feat that lets you use dex to damage with rapiers every rogue and bard would pick it up without thinking twice. This way it's pretty much exclusive to the swashbuckler.

But since this is the case I don't understand why they didn't give it to the swashbuckler as a class feature. Level 3, or even level 5 would have been acceptable...

Swashbucklers don't get dex to damage with rapiers either. The feat, Slashing Grace, only allows dex to damage with one-handed slashing weapons. What Swashbucklers get, is Swashbuckler's Finesse, which is the ability to use dexterity for their attack rolls with any light or one-handed piercing weapon. Which, funnily enough, Slashing Graces allows you to treat any one-handed slashing weapon as if it were a one-handed piercing weapon for class abilities like Swashbucklers Finesse. So Swashbucklers can use a battleaxe, longsword, bastard sword etc. to add Dexterity to Attack rolls and Damage rolls.

But they can't use a rapier.

So Swashbucklers have to use a the agile enhancement just likes Rogues, and Bards do if they want dex to damage on rapiers.

I understand that, and it's a valid point from a flavor point of view.

However the scimitar/cutlass is mechanically the same weapon as the rapier, and swashbucklers...

There is absolutely nothing wrong with Rogues getting dex to damage. And Swashbucklers could already get Dex to Damage via agile weapons or Dervish Dance.

The problem comes from the fact that there are a lot of finesseable weapons, like unarmed strikes, claws, talons, daggers, shortswords, kukri etc. that could all be used with a dex to damage feat.

As written, none of these benefit as none of them are one-handed slashing weapons. Each is a light slashing or a light piercing weapon.

People have been wanting a more generic dex to damage for a long time. Mathematically, it's been proven numerous times that dex to damage is not a brokenly powerful option, despite what some people want to think.

Sure, it takes some away from Strength, but Strength is still very important as it applies to maneuvers bonus (most maneuvers don't function with weapon finesse) and maneuver defense, and affects your carrying capacity plus a few skills.

If you dump strength, you're going to find youself having a hard time carrying armor (even light armor), a weapon, and your gear without getting encumbered.

Not only that, even if you bump your Dex as high as possible, you're going to find yourself doing less damage than the guy who just puts two hands on his longsword. Not only that, you *must* have a strength of 13 in order to use Power Attack (as Piranha Strike only applies to light weapons).

A 'Greater Weapon Finesse' feat is not a broken option. I bet, if anything, the reason it wasn't included is because of Mythic Weapon Finesse coming first and Paizo wouldn't want to obviate a Mythic Feat.

Jinete wrote:

I mean, what are the other options? If they make a feat that lets you give dex to damage with finesse-able weapons other classes (rogue) would get it too easily. If they give it to the swashbuckler as a class feature then he gets dex damage AND precise strike, and they probably thought that that is too much power "for free".

So they came up with this as the middle ground. Sadly, to me it feels a bit "clunky".

I would not be averse at all to paying the same feat tax to get my rapier to have dex-to-damage. However, from every feedback we have gotten so far, this option was for some bizarre and impossible to understand reason not included in the book, while dwarven waraxes, bastard swords and the falcata were made more optimal for swashbucklers than the rapier.

There has to be some error here. Because otherwise this would feel like a deliberate insult to the iconic Swashbuckler fans. Hell, why even give Jirelle a rapier if she would be better served with a falcata or bastard sword, according to what the developers just gave us?

Yeah, but how would you do it, if you want the feat tax to be more steep for the rogue? Unless you put "swashbuckler" as a prerequisite. And then you would get a lot of hate from the backstabbing bunch :)

magnuskn wrote:

Jinete wrote:

I mean, what are the other options? If they make a feat that lets you give dex to damage with finesse-able weapons other classes (rogue) would get it too easily. If they give it to the swashbuckler as a class feature then he gets dex damage AND precise strike, and they probably thought that that is too much power "for free".

So they came up with this as the middle ground. Sadly, to me it feels a bit "clunky".

I would not be averse at all to paying the same feat tax to get my rapier to have dex-to-damage. However, from every feedback we have gotten so far, this option was for some bizarre and impossible to understand reason not included in the book, while dwarven waraxes, bastard swords and the falcata were made more optimal for swashbucklers than the rapier.

There has to be some error here. Because otherwise this would feel like a deliberate insult to the iconic Swashbuckler fans. Hell, why even give Jirelle a rapier if she would be better served with a falcata or bastard sword, according to what the developers just gave us?

Yeah, but how would you do it, if you want the feat tax to be more steep for the rogue? Unless you put "swashbuckler" as a prerequisite. And then you would get a lot of hate from the backstabbing bunch :)

How would I handle it? Pretty simple.

Greater Weapon Finesse

Your skill and speed with your weapon allows your quick and agile strikes to land devastating blows.

Prerequisites: Dex 15, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (chosen weapon)

Benefit: You may replace your strength modifier for your dexterity modifier on damage rolls with any finesseable weapon with which you have weapon focus.

Special: Characters with Swashbucklers Finesse and similar abilities that allow them to treat a weapon as a finesseable weapon or use their dexterity score on attack rolls with a weapon are treated as if they have weapon finesse with that weapon for the purpose of this feat and it's prerequisites.

=========================

With the above, even a Human has to wait until at least 3rd level to get this feat, and it only applies to the weapon with which they have weapon focus. Rogues could take Weapon Finesse at first, the Weapon Training Rogue Talent, and then Greater Weapon Finesse at 3rd. For everyone else, except Fighters, they have to wait until 5th level to get the feat.

Personally, I would remove the restriction on Weapon Focus (making it apply to all finesseable weapons) and replace it with BAB 3 because I feel like waiting until 5th is too long, but I understand Paizo seems to hate Dex to Damage options in the rules line and made it more restrictive.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with Rogues getting dex to damage. And Swashbucklers could already get Dex to Damage via agile weapons or Dervish Dance.

The problem comes from the fact that there are a lot of finesseable weapons, like unarmed strikes, claws, talons, daggers, shortswords, kukri etc. that could all be used with a dex to damage feat.

As written, none of these benefit as none of them are one-handed slashing weapons. Each is a light slashing or a light piercing weapon.

People have been wanting a more generic dex to damage for a long time. Mathematically, it's been proven numerous times that dex to damage is not a brokenly powerful option, despite what some people want to think.

Sure, it takes some away from Strength, but Strength is still very important as it applies to maneuvers bonus (most maneuvers don't function with weapon finesse) and maneuver defense, and affects your carrying capacity plus a few skills.

If you dump strength, you're going to find youself having a hard time carrying armor (even light armor), a weapon, and your gear without getting encumbered.

Not only that, even if you bump your Dex as high as possible, you're going to find yourself doing less damage than the guy who just puts two hands on his longsword. Not only that, you *must* have a strength of 13 in order to use Power Attack (as Piranha Strike only applies to light weapons).

A 'Greater Weapon Finesse' feat is not a broken option. I bet, if anything, the reason it wasn't included is because of Mythic Weapon Finesse coming first and Paizo wouldn't want to obviate a Mythic Feat.

I disagree. Rogues get their extra damage from sneak attack. Couple it with dex to damage and it seems a bit much. I haven't done the math but I hope the designers have...

Agile weapon gives you dex to damage but:
a) you have to pay for it
b) you miss out on +1 to hit and +1 to damage

Dervish dance gives you dex to damage, but you can't use a buckler, so it's not a viable option for the swashbuckler.

You can disarm and trip with a finesse-able weapon using dex (according to the FAQ) and the two seem like something a swashbuckler would do thematically.

Muleback cords cost a measly 1000gp and you can forget about encumberance.

What I don't understand is why they didn't give it to the swashbuckler as a class feature, with a "you can't use power attack" caveat. That way they do damage comparable to a sword and board fighter using power attack, but they hit more often. Which to me seems ok. And like you said, they do less damage than a two handed weapon fighter, which is also ok...

magnuskn wrote:

Jinete wrote:

I mean, what are the other options? If they make a feat that lets you give dex to damage with finesse-able weapons other classes (rogue) would get it too easily. If they give it to the swashbuckler as a class feature then he gets dex damage AND precise strike, and they probably thought that that is too much power "for free".

So they came up with this as the middle ground. Sadly, to me it feels a bit "clunky".

I would not be averse at all to paying the same feat tax to get my rapier to have dex-to-damage. However, from every feedback we have gotten so far, this option was for some bizarre and impossible to understand reason not included in the book, while dwarven waraxes, bastard swords and the falcata were made more optimal for swashbucklers than the rapier.

There has to be some error here. Because otherwise this would feel like a deliberate insult to the iconic Swashbuckler fans. Hell, why even give Jirelle a rapier if she would be better served with a falcata or bastard sword, according to what the developers just gave us?

Yeah, but how would you do it, if you want the feat tax to be more steep for the rogue? Unless you put "swashbuckler" as a prerequisite. And then you would get a lot of hate from the backstabbing bunch :)

No one's saying they want the feat tax to be steeper for a rogue, I'm not sure where that's coming from. What Magnuskn is saying is that he'd be happy to pay the same tax for dex to damage on his rapier as he would with a long sword or whatever.

Additionally, it already is steeper for a rogue, assuming that weapon finesse is a prerequisite. Swashbucklers get Swashbuckler's Finesse as a class feature, which I believe counts as Weapon Finesse for prereqs (unless something changed between the playtest and the final version), Rogues have to pay for it, either with a feat or a talent.

Yeah, but how would you do it, if you want the feat tax to be more steep for the rogue? Unless you put "swashbuckler" as a prerequisite. And then you would get a lot of hate from the backstabbing bunch :)

Slashing Grace basically already has "Swashbuckler lvl 1" as a prerequisite for most of the one-handed slashing weapons. So it's not that big of a problem with me, personally.

I disagree. Rogues get their extra damage from sneak attack. Couple it with dex to damage and it seems a bit much. I haven't done the math but I hope the designers have...

It seriously is not. Do the math, don't just assume.

No one's saying they want the feat tax to be steeper for a rogue, I'm not sure where that's coming from. What Magnuskn is saying is that he'd be happy to pay the same tax for dex to damage on his rapier as he would with a long sword or whatever.

Additionally, it already is steeper for a rogue, assuming that weapon finesse is a prerequisite. Swashbucklers get Swashbuckler's Finesse as a class feature, which I believe counts as Weapon Finesse for prereqs (unless something changed between the playtest and the final version), Rogues have to pay for it, either with a feat or a talent.

I know no one is saying that, but it seems to me that that is what the designers want.

It make the slashing weapong a piercing one, and then give DEX to damage. When it gives DEX to damage, the weapon is piercing, so we can read it like the piercing weapons obviate the first part of the feat and recieve only the second.

Is a strange way to read it, and highly doubt is RAI, but could it work?

Besides that, it seams that the ST problem of the swashbuckler is unchanged. That is a serious problem indeed. I still don't have the book, and I'm just thinking a pair of Houserules. I no doubt the book is amazing, but that really are not cool.

Edit for typo.

It seriously is not. Do the math, don't just assume.

Not my job :) I'll leave that to the people getting paid for it...

It make the slashing weapong a piercing one, and then give DEX to damage. When it gives DEX to damage, the weapon is piercing, so we can read it like the piercing weapons obviate the first part of the fear and recieve only the second.

Is a strange way to read it, and highly doubt is RAI, but could it work?

I seriously doubt it. Since the equation would be "slashing weapon -> piercing weapon = dex to damage", only having a piercing weapon in the mix would still miss the slashing weapon component and therefore would not work.

magnuskn wrote:

It seriously is not. Do the math, don't just assume.

Not my job :) I'll leave that to the people getting paid for it...

The people who aren't getting paid to do it have already done it numerous times. Go try searching the 10,000+ threads complaining about the Rogue.

Don't go try making a math claim especially if you haven't done the math to back it up.

magnuskn wrote:

It seriously is not. Do the math, don't just assume.

Not my job :) I'll leave that to the people getting paid for it...

Actually the people who get paid to make classes don't usually take the math into account, as is obvious by classes with similar roles have huge differences in math.

Jinete wrote:

magnuskn wrote:

It seriously is not. Do the math, don't just assume.

Not my job :) I'll leave that to the people getting paid for it...

The people who aren't getting paid to do it have already done it numerous times. Go try searching the 10,000+ threads complaining about the Rogue.

Don't go try making a math claim especially if you haven't done the math to back it up.

Could you help me out and provide some links? It looks like you understand the matter completely, so you'll probably know which ones are best.

Tels wrote:

Jinete wrote:

magnuskn wrote:

It seriously is not. Do the math, don't just assume.

Not my job :) I'll leave that to the people getting paid for it...

The people who aren't getting paid to do it have already done it numerous times. Go try searching the 10,000+ threads complaining about the Rogue.

Don't go try making a math claim especially if you haven't done the math to back it up.

Could you help me out and provide some links? It looks like you understand the matter completely, so you'll probably know which ones are best.

I don't bother keeping track of Rogue links much because all it takes is searching for something like Rogue vs Fighter DPR or something. No offense, but if you want to learn more, you should go find it and read some threads yourself.

I don't bother keeping track of Rogue links much because all it takes is searching for something like Rogue vs Fighter DPR or something. No offense, but if you want to learn more, you should go find it and read some threads yourself.

None taken. I just thought that you had some evidence to back *your* math claims.

Can anyone give me any information on the combat maneuver buffs the slayer with the bounty hunter archetype recieves?

Jinete wrote:

magnuskn wrote:

It seriously is not. Do the math, don't just assume.

Not my job :) I'll leave that to the people getting paid for it...

Actually the people who get paid to make classes don't usually take the math into account, as is obvious by classes with similar roles have huge differences in math.

I really hope that that isn't true.

Still, I myself was hoping that the dex to damage thing was something that the swashbuckler would get as a class feature. That and a one-handed version of the elven curve blade. I'm going to play a swashbuckler in an upcoming campaign and I'm not that into scimitars :)

But since the scimitar is clearly the only option, I guess it will have to do. Maybe my DM will let me reflavor it...

Insain Dragoon wrote:

Jinete wrote:

magnuskn wrote:

It seriously is not. Do the math, don't just assume.

Not my job :) I'll leave that to the people getting paid for it...

Actually the people who get paid to make classes don't usually take the math into account, as is obvious by classes with similar roles have huge differences in math.

I really hope that that isn't true.

Still, I myself was hoping that the dex to damage thing was something that the swashbuckler would get as a class feature. That and a one-handed version of the elven curve blade. I'm going to play a swashbuckler in an upcoming campaign and I'm not that into scimitars :)

But since the scimitar is clearly the only option, I guess it will have to do. Maybe my DM will let me reflavor it...

There is always the Aldori dueling Sword.

Can someone tell me if Warpriests get the ability/can get the ability to select Domains and maybe Inquisitions?

Not warpriests specifically, but there is a feat that lets you tap into domain powers as a level 1 cleric.

Sounds great! :D

Would you mind? ;P

Any Skald Archetype that get Bardic performances?

Any Bard love? Feat that let improved bardic performance or let you use 2 performances at the same time? Have they fixed versatile performance? A feat so you can redistribute skills? Any magic or mundane toys? Instrument that can double as a weapon??

On the first question I can say that there is a skald archetype that gets something similar to the arcane duelist's bladethirst performance, but it affects everyone. Other than that I haven't seen any traditional bardic performance abilities, though I might well have missed something. I'm not terribly up to date on the skald.

Edit: Just found a magic item that gives skalds Inspire Courage and bards Raging Song!

The second question... There is so much text to work through that it's really hard to answer something concretely, but I'm reasonably sure you'll find stuff that benefits every class greatly. Near as I can tell Versatile Performance is unchanged, I haven't seen a feat that lets you redistribute skills, and they get some really cool magic toys (poet's cloak) and mundane toys (Tome of Epics).

wakedown wrote:

Do you want slayer talents and sneak attack on your inquisitor? Check.

Oh, crap! I may have to completely reimagine/rework the Slayer/Inquisitor that I have then!

Is this the Sanctified Slayer archetype?

It is indeed! It's one of my favorite archetypes so far.

It is nice to hear that Monks FINALLY got a nice thing. How many Pummeling feats are their?

There are three feats in the Pummeling style chain.

But what about the equipment section? Any new/cool weapons there?

There are a bunch of new alchemical weapons and a few specific magic weapons.

Can anyone give me any information on the combat maneuver buffs the slayer with the bounty hunter archetype recieves?

They gain bonuses and class features that revolve around Dirty Trick, Grapple, and can incapacitate targets with a single blow. They also gain some really funky weapon proficiencies, including the bola and the lasso.

On a personal note: The more I read this book the more I love it - it is by far the most important Pathfinder book I've read since the Advanced Player's Guide was released, and it will be used frequently at my tables. As befits the name, the sheer amount of customization it offers to really tweak your character class in the form of feats, archetypes etc boggles the mind!

Ross Byers wrote:

Jim Groves wrote:

Necromancer wrote:

(Clr/Sha/Wit) Speak with Haunt: Haunt answers one question/2 levels.

I don't usually do this, but I have to say.. I cooked that one up to help add roleplaying elements to them, which seemed to be a frequent source of complaints.

I expect the most common question will be "What do you want!?" or some other variant of "How do we make you go away?"

Here I was thinking:

"What is your favorite color?"

"Would you like a spot of tea?"

"Do you have Prince Albert in a can?"

There is always the Aldori dueling Sword.

Critical threat range not good enough :)

Last I heard the Swashbuckler was going to get dex to damage as a class feature like gunslingers got with a single type of gun at 5th level. But obviously they didn't get such a class ability at all.

Jinete wrote:

I disagree. Rogues get their extra damage from sneak attack. Couple it with dex to damage and it seems a bit much. I haven't done the math but I hope the designers have...

It seriously is not. Do the math, don't just assume.

I have. He's right.

The iconic can get the all important "dex to damage" though, from what I've seen. Rogue Eidolon's swashbuckler playtests showed that this wasn't necessary at all once they got past like 4th level.

Since it sounds like they didn't nerf anything, the class will be just fine, even if they don't get that mythic feat.

Kudaku, do you mind? We're discussing the most important thing ever here. Please take off topic things like spoilers and teasers of the ACG to a different thread, one that isn't about such a monumentally important topic.

Although, while we're on such an off topic tangent.... before the ACG playtests, Sean necro'd a two year old thread about abjuration. Does it look like anything came of that? Anything about dispelling?

Can I beg for some info on the verminous slayer? :)

I loved that UM opened options for those, but between not getting feats until you spent a point in Int (therefore losing mindless traits) and having absolutely miserable stats (5 point buy or less on some?..) I had to scrap ideas I'd wanted to use.

Kudaku, do you mind? We're discussing the most important thing ever here. Please take off topic things like spoilers and teasers of the ACG to a different thread, one that isn't about such a monumentally important topic.

For what it's worth I actually think that not having a piercing weapon alternative to Slashing Grace is extremely unfortunate for swashbucklers, but I'm not entirely sure if the limitation was intentional or an oversight, or if we're missing something in the book itself. I certainly look forward to hearing what the design team has to share on the topic when they're less crunched for time. :)

In the meantime, more teasers!

Can I beg for some info on the verminous slayer? :)

I loved that UM opened options for those, but between not getting feats until you spent a point in Int (therefore losing mindless traits) and having absolutely miserable stats (5 point buy or less on some?..) I had to scrap ideas I'd wanted to use.

The verminous slayer is a hunter archetype that gets a vermin animal companion and a series of class features centered on or around vermin. Among other things he can safely move inside a swarm without taking any penalties, which could potentially be very interesting indeed for a melee hunter using Summon Swarm, Mad Monkeys or Rain of Frogs!

I'm not familiar with the vermin rules in Ultimate Magic but I see them referenced in the text for the verminous slayer, so I suspect you may run into some of the same problems here. :-/

Bloodrager and Brawler Archetypes with quick summary/idea of it, Please?

I only have one question, otherwise I can be patient. The Musketeer archetype for Swashbuckler: Is it good? Like both mechanically and flavorwise? Because if after making Robin Hood and Zorro viable they don't let me make Aremis I'm gonna be really put out.

Kudaku, could I politely request you to verify if the swashbuckler ability "opportune riposte and parry" still functions as it did in the test guide? I am mainly curious if the deed still functions off of your AoO pool, and if it can still be combined with signature deed at level 11 to eliminate the panache cost.

If those things are still true, it is my intent to re-open the Crane Wing discussion with that as a direct comparison. Thanks!

So for all this talk about Slashing Grace, why don't I see anyone talking about the fact that it gives you DEX to damage but takes away DEX to hit? Am I missing something?

So for all this talk about Slashing Grace, why don't I see anyone talking about the fact that it gives you DEX to damage but takes away DEX to hit? Am I missing something?

If you have one level in Swashbuckler, you can use any one-handed piercing weapon as a finessable one. Slashing Grace makes a slashing one-handed weapon into a piercing one in terms of those prerequisites, so....

So for all this talk about Slashing Grace, why don't I see anyone talking about the fact that it gives you DEX to damage but takes away DEX to hit? Am I missing something?

As I gathered, you get to treat it as a one handed piercing weapon for all class abilities that require such a weapon. So you get to apply swashbuckler finesse to it, which gives you dex to hit.

Bloodrager and Brawler Archetypes with quick summary/idea of it, Please?

That's a bit too comprehensive, the brawler gets 7 and the Bloodrager 10 (!) archetypes.

I have to say the Shield Champion Brawler is every bit as awesome as Mark led us to believe in the Brawler Blog! Can't wait to see one of these on the table. :)

Kudaku, could I politely request you to verify if the swashbuckler ability "opportune riposte and parry" still functions as it did in the test guide? I am mainly curious if the deed still functions off of your AoO pool, and if it can still be combined with signature deed at level 11 to eliminate the panache cost.

If those things are still true, it is my intent to re-open the Crane Wing discussion with that as a direct comparison. Thanks!

From my limited understanding of the Swashbuckler, Opportune Riposte and Parry has only had cosmetic changes - the mechanics appear to be identical to the ones in the revised play test. With that said, I'd hold off with starting that debate until you can quote the class ability in its entirety and read it in relation to the rest of the class. Like I said I'm not terribly familiar with the class, but there might be other class mechanics or feats down the line that interact with Opportune Riposte.

So for all this talk about Slashing Grace, why don't I see anyone talking about the fact that it gives you DEX to damage but takes away DEX to hit? Am I missing something?

Slashing Grace doesn't actually take away DEX to hit, rather it applies DEX to damage with weapons that never qualified for DEX to hit in the first place. Then the swashbuckler level lets you use weapon finesse with one-handed piercing weapons, which Slashing Grace makes your slashing weapon qualify for.

I only have one question, otherwise I can be patient. The Musketeer archetype for Swashbuckler: Is it good? Like both mechanically and flavorwise? Because if after making Robin Hood and Zorro viable they don't let me make Aremis I'm gonna be really put out.

It is... Short. It gains a number of bonus feats to make guns (two-handed firearms, really) more viable, but I'm not entirely convinced that it pulls it off. It strikes me as a bit of a switch hitter who starts off firing a 2-handed firearm, then closes to melee with a rapier. To be fair it doesn't lose much either, it'll play more or less like a normal swashbuckler. Out of the two gun archetypes available to the swashbuckler I prefer the Picaroon, which is a bit more comprehensive.

From my limited understanding of the Swashbuckler, Opportune Riposte and Parry has only had cosmetic changes - the mechanics appear to be identical to the ones in the revised play test. With that said, I'd hold off with starting that debate until you can quote the class ability in its entirety and read it in relation to the rest of the class. Like I said I'm not terribly familiar with the class, but there might be other class mechanics or feats down the line that interact with Opportune Riposte.

My interest would be if the glut of swift/immediate action reliant abilities has been somewhat reduced.

Jiggy wrote:

So for all this talk about Slashing Grace, why don't I see anyone talking about the fact that it gives you DEX to damage but takes away DEX to hit? Am I missing something?

Slashing Grace doesn't actually take away DEX to hit, rather it applies DEX to damage with weapons that never qualified for DEX to hit in the first place. Then the swashbuckler level lets you use weapon finesse with one-handed piercing weapons, which Slashing Grace makes your slashing weapon qualify for.

What I meant by "takes away" was "in order to use the feat, you have to do something that involves not getting DEX to hit, whereas before taking Slashing Grace you could do the thing that does get DEX to hit".

So realistically, Slashing Grace only gives you a practical benefit if you dip Swashbuckler. Alrighty then.

I only have one question, otherwise I can be patient. The Musketeer archetype for Swashbuckler: Is it good? Like both mechanically and

It is... Short. It gains a number of bonus feats to make guns (two-handed firearms, really) more viable, but I'm not entirely convinced that it pulls it off. It strikes me as a bit of a switch hitter who starts off firing a 2-handed firearm, then closes to melee with a rapier. To be fair it doesn't lose much either, it'll play more or less like a normal swashbuckler. Out of the two gun archetypes available to the swashbuckler I prefer the Picaroon, which is a bit more comprehensive.

Well histroically that's about accurate for a musketeer but not as exciting as one would have hoped. What makes Picaroon different? Sword and pistol?

Kudaku wrote:

Jiggy wrote:

So for all this talk about Slashing Grace, why don't I see anyone talking about the fact that it gives you DEX to damage but takes away DEX to hit? Am I missing something?

Slashing Grace doesn't actually take away DEX to hit, rather it applies DEX to damage with weapons that never qualified for DEX to hit in the first place. Then the swashbuckler level lets you use weapon finesse with one-handed piercing weapons, which Slashing Grace makes your slashing weapon qualify for.

What I meant by "takes away" was "in order to use the feat, you have to do something that involves not getting DEX to hit, whereas before taking Slashing Grace you could do the thing that does get DEX to hit".

So realistically, Slashing Grace only gives you a practical benefit if you dip Swashbuckler. Alrighty then.

Or if you use a one-handed slashing weapon that lets you use weapon finesse. I believe the aldori dueling sword would work when used with proficiency, I can't think of any other weapons that qualify at the moment.

Abjuration?