Jinete's page

Hi, please cancel my Pathfinder subscription.

Jinete wrote:

The weapon finesse stamina entry seems a bit strange... it reduces your to hit penalty for using a shield :o

It almost looks like it should belong to another combat feat.

Nope! Weapon Finesse does not play well with shields. An often forgotten part of it is that you subtract the ACP of your shield from your to-hit rolls. A Mithril Shield usually fixes that, though.

I know about the ACP but I'm trying to think of ways for this trick to be actually useful. So far all I can think of is using a tower shield and still be able to attack. I was hoping for something less situational than this.

The weapon finesse stamina entry seems a bit strange... it reduces your to hit penalty for using a shield :o

It almost looks like it should belong to another combat feat.

Tels wrote:

It's not the math, its the requirement for nearly completely separate character sheets.

It's funny. People keep saying this. And yet... there are scads of statblocks in adventure after adventure that add only a few lines of "when not ranging" stats at the end. Rage doesn't actually change very much, at least not if you're not spelling out every derived number that the character could possibly have. Statblocks are amazing if you spend a little while learning how to use them.

Not that I'm opposed to seeing alternate barbarians... this book might be fun in general. I just don't think the problem is as serious as folks are taking it. If it were, we'd have to make alternate versions of pretty much every buff/debuff spell in the book, and do away with ability score damage etc.

Honestly, I find it almost impossible to play (or GM) Pathfinder without using an Excel table for a character sheet.

"Fixing" rage so it doesn't modify your STR and DEX score is great, but what about the Bull's strength spell, poisons, fatigue/exhaustion, ability score damage and all other effects that alter ability scores?

Hmm, would the Effortless lace allow my Inspired blade to pick up Piranha strike, I wonder...

So Half-Orcs treat any weapon with the word “orc” in its name as a martial weapon. But as far as I can see, there's only the Orc double axe...

Is there something I'm missing? Do you think Half-Orcs should get more love in this department?

Yeah, it does. A Grapple check is still an attack roll. After the grapple is initiated, though, there is no more miss chance, so grappling the wizard is a solid strategy.

Why is that? I can't find a rule that states that miss chance doesn't apply once the grapple is initiated.

Also, disregard the dimension door thing, a level 5 wizard can't cast it anyway...

Jinete wrote:

Since the somatic component is present in most spells, if the wizard doesn't have a still spell dimension door prepared he's basically helpless.

Dimension door is verbal only. Unrelated, but Teleport is also verbal only. Of course, the concentration DC is still really high.

So it is. Must remember to check my statements before i post :)

Still, if I was the OP I'd go for the grapple check. It seems like the best option.

Blinded PC would lose his/her Dex and maybe a STR hit as well. So the CMB may drop some because of a possible str hit. I'm unsure on weather a 50% miss chance would apply because you do not make a roll to hit for a grapple check.

CMB relies on strength, and being blinded gives a penalty on strength based skill checks. Since grapple is a combat maneuver the CMB would stay the same. As for the 50% miss chance, see my previous post.

edit: ninja'd

Once he successfully starts the grapple, he doesn't have to worry about his miss chances again, does he? What penalties would he take in the grapple/trying to maintain the grapple if blinded?

Well, to quote the prd: "Combat maneuvers are attack rolls, so you must roll for concealment and take any other penalties that would normally apply to an attack roll."

So by RAW I guess the 50% miss chance would apply even after the grapple has been initiated. I would rule differently, but RAW are RAW :)

If pinned what options would the Wizard have at that point?

Not many. Again quote: "A pinned creature can take verbal and mental actions, but cannot cast any spells that require a somatic or material component. A pinned character who attempts to cast a spell or use a spell-like ability must make a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler's CMB + spell level) or lose the spell."

Since the somatic component is present in most spells, if the wizard doesn't have a still spell dimension door prepared he's basically helpless. Even then he would have to roll against a pretty high DC...

Well, being blinded actually helps :) Instead of dealing with displacement and mirror image you have a 50% chance (total concealment) of starting a grapple (if you know which square the wizard is in).

I'd try to grapple, then pin the wizard. If you succeed he would be unable to cast and you could just squeeze him to death.

A nice grapple chart can be found here:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Grapple

I made a lvl 5 inspired blade, I decided to dump strength (and power attack) and go for intelligence instead

str 10, dex 18, con 14, int 14, wis 8, cha 14

still haven't had the chance to test him out, but I think that I will crit often enough to replace any spent panache, at least at higher levels. Extra skill points don't hurt either :)

race: half-elf

feats:
combat expertise
exotic weapon prof (whip)
fencing grace
weapon specialization (rapier)
improved disarm
steadfast personality

traits:
elven heritage
threatening defender

Can someone tell me what the Picaroon Swashbuckler get?

A severe case of tennis elbow, caused by the need to constantly draw/sheathe his rapier in order to reload his pistol...

Stregi wrote:

A pair of questions:

1- can I aplly the dex bonus damage of Slashing Grace when i throw a dagger?

2- can I use Swashbukler precise strike with two weapon fighting in this way: 2 hands free, I retrieve a dagger as a free action(quick draw)and throw it with the main hand(adding precise strike damage), then retrieving another dagger with the off hand and throwing it(adding precise strike) and so on?

1) Slashing Grace applies to any one-handed slashing weapons. It could be argued that a light weapon could be a one-handed weapon, but the general consensus is that it isn't. As a result, a dagger does not qualify for Slashing Grace, and as a result, it doesn't work. However, if you selected a one-handed slashing weapon that can be thrown, then yes, you would get the damage on ranged attack rolls.

2) Again, since the dagger is a light weapon, Slashing Grace cannot be selected. However, if you had a one-handed slashing weapon that can be thrown, I'd say yes, that would apply in that case. But note that in such a case, you would be taking -4 penalty to attack rolls since your off-hand attack is with a non-light weapon.

Of course, if your GM allows light weapons to be used with Slashing Grace, then the answer to both questions would be a yes.

I believe that the 2nd question was about precise strike with thrown daggers. And the answer in this case is yes, the precise strike damage would apply to both thrown daggers.

Correct. The Rogue got very little love in the ACG and Paizo continues the irritating tradition of ridiculous amounts of prerequisites for basic feats.

Exactly. For example Canny tumble and Confounding tumble would be good feats, but for some reason I'm getting Dodge and Mobility force fed to me yet again...

Feats: Some of the feat prerequisites seem odd to me. Kick Up, for example, has prerequisites of Dex 12, Acrobatic, Acrobatics 1 rank, Slayer level 1st or swashbuckler level 1st. This is also a combat bonus feat. So if I'm reading this correctly, this is only really available to Slayers and Swashbucklers. Those who wish to pick this as a combat bonus feat, would need to dip a level into one of these two classes. Correct?

Seems that way. I was planning to take the feat myself, but then i realized I can't disarm an opponent and kick-up his weapon. And then i saw the Acrobatic prerequisite and that turned it into a feat i will never take...

The action required to activate the Swashbuckler's rapier bane ability is missing. I'm guessing swift since a standard action kind of defeats the purpose...

So far, I'm totally underwhelmed by the feats section of the book. I'm creating a Swashbuckler character, and there isn't a single feat in this book I find useful.

My group is starting a new campaign, and we are all going to be playing classes from ACG (I called dibs on the Swashbuckler).

Also all the players agreed that no one will play a full caster. Hopefully that way all the characters will be more/less balanced.

So for all this talk about Slashing Grace, why don't I see anyone talking about the fact that it gives you DEX to damage but takes away DEX to hit? Am I missing something?

As I gathered, you get to treat it as a one handed piercing weapon for all class abilities that require such a weapon. So you get to apply swashbuckler finesse to it, which gives you dex to hit.

There is always the Aldori dueling Sword.

Critical threat range not good enough :)

Jinete wrote:

magnuskn wrote:

It seriously is not. Do the math, don't just assume.

Not my job :) I'll leave that to the people getting paid for it...

Actually the people who get paid to make classes don't usually take the math into account, as is obvious by classes with similar roles have huge differences in math.

I really hope that that isn't true.

Still, I myself was hoping that the dex to damage thing was something that the swashbuckler would get as a class feature. That and a one-handed version of the elven curve blade. I'm going to play a swashbuckler in an upcoming campaign and I'm not that into scimitars :)

But since the scimitar is clearly the only option, I guess it will have to do. Maybe my DM will let me reflavor it...

I don't bother keeping track of Rogue links much because all it takes is searching for something like Rogue vs Fighter DPR or something. No offense, but if you want to learn more, you should go find it and read some threads yourself.

None taken. I just thought that you had some evidence to back *your* math claims.

Jinete wrote:

magnuskn wrote:

It seriously is not. Do the math, don't just assume.

Not my job :) I'll leave that to the people getting paid for it...

The people who aren't getting paid to do it have already done it numerous times. Go try searching the 10,000+ threads complaining about the Rogue.

Don't go try making a math claim especially if you haven't done the math to back it up.

Could you help me out and provide some links? It looks like you understand the matter completely, so you'll probably know which ones are best.

It seriously is not. Do the math, don't just assume.

Not my job :) I'll leave that to the people getting paid for it...

No one's saying they want the feat tax to be steeper for a rogue, I'm not sure where that's coming from. What Magnuskn is saying is that he'd be happy to pay the same tax for dex to damage on his rapier as he would with a long sword or whatever.

Additionally, it already is steeper for a rogue, assuming that weapon finesse is a prerequisite. Swashbucklers get Swashbuckler's Finesse as a class feature, which I believe counts as Weapon Finesse for prereqs (unless something changed between the playtest and the final version), Rogues have to pay for it, either with a feat or a talent.

I know no one is saying that, but it seems to me that that is what the designers want.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with Rogues getting dex to damage. And Swashbucklers could already get Dex to Damage via agile weapons or Dervish Dance.

The problem comes from the fact that there are a lot of finesseable weapons, like unarmed strikes, claws, talons, daggers, shortswords, kukri etc. that could all be used with a dex to damage feat.

As written, none of these benefit as none of them are one-handed slashing weapons. Each is a light slashing or a light piercing weapon.

People have been wanting a more generic dex to damage for a long time. Mathematically, it's been proven numerous times that dex to damage is not a brokenly powerful option, despite what some people want to think.

Sure, it takes some away from Strength, but Strength is still very important as it applies to maneuvers bonus (most maneuvers don't function with weapon finesse) and maneuver defense, and affects your carrying capacity plus a few skills.

If you dump strength, you're going to find youself having a hard time carrying armor (even light armor), a weapon, and your gear without getting encumbered.

Not only that, even if you bump your Dex as high as possible, you're going to find yourself doing less damage than the guy who just puts two hands on his longsword. Not only that, you *must* have a strength of 13 in order to use Power Attack (as Piranha Strike only applies to light weapons).

A 'Greater Weapon Finesse' feat is not a broken option. I bet, if anything, the reason it wasn't included is because of Mythic Weapon Finesse coming first and Paizo wouldn't want to obviate a Mythic Feat.

I disagree. Rogues get their extra damage from sneak attack. Couple it with dex to damage and it seems a bit much. I haven't done the math but I hope the designers have...

Agile weapon gives you dex to damage but:
a) you have to pay for it
b) you miss out on +1 to hit and +1 to damage

Dervish dance gives you dex to damage, but you can't use a buckler, so it's not a viable option for the swashbuckler.

You can disarm and trip with a finesse-able weapon using dex (according to the FAQ) and the two seem like something a swashbuckler would do thematically.

Muleback cords cost a measly 1000gp and you can forget about encumberance.

What I don't understand is why they didn't give it to the swashbuckler as a class feature, with a "you can't use power attack" caveat. That way they do damage comparable to a sword and board fighter using power attack, but they hit more often. Which to me seems ok. And like you said, they do less damage than a two handed weapon fighter, which is also ok...

Jinete wrote:

I mean, what are the other options? If they make a feat that lets you give dex to damage with finesse-able weapons other classes (rogue) would get it too easily. If they give it to the swashbuckler as a class feature then he gets dex damage AND precise strike, and they probably thought that that is too much power "for free".

So they came up with this as the middle ground. Sadly, to me it feels a bit "clunky".

I would not be averse at all to paying the same feat tax to get my rapier to have dex-to-damage. However, from every feedback we have gotten so far, this option was for some bizarre and impossible to understand reason not included in the book, while dwarven waraxes, bastard swords and the falcata were made more optimal for swashbucklers than the rapier.

There has to be some error here. Because otherwise this would feel like a deliberate insult to the iconic Swashbuckler fans. Hell, why even give Jirelle a rapier if she would be better served with a falcata or bastard sword, according to what the developers just gave us?

Yeah, but how would you do it, if you want the feat tax to be more steep for the rogue? Unless you put "swashbuckler" as a prerequisite. And then you would get a lot of hate from the backstabbing bunch :)

Jinete wrote:

Deadmanwalking wrote:

Jinete wrote:

Tels wrote:

I mean, Jirelle, the Iconic Swashbuckler for Pathfinder herself uses a rapier, but if she wants Dex to Damage for her rapier, she has to wait until 6th level. Or she can opt to use a battleaxe because it makes sense that the battleaxe is an elegant, graceful weapon used by those with great agility and speed.

I must have missed something. What happens at level 6?

You have enough money for a +1 Agile Rapier. Theoretically, anyway.

Oh. Well I'm not a big fan of using magic items to achieve something that should have been a class ability.

I can see the reasoning behind slashing grace though. If they had a feat that lets you use dex to damage with rapiers every rogue and bard would pick it up without thinking twice. This way it's pretty much exclusive to the swashbuckler.

But since this is the case I don't understand why they didn't give it to the swashbuckler as a class feature. Level 3, or even level 5 would have been acceptable...

Swashbucklers don't get dex to damage with rapiers either. The feat, Slashing Grace, only allows dex to damage with one-handed slashing weapons. What Swashbucklers get, is Swashbuckler's Finesse, which is the ability to use dexterity for their attack rolls with any light or one-handed piercing weapon. Which, funnily enough, Slashing Graces allows you to treat any one-handed slashing weapon as if it were a one-handed piercing weapon for class abilities like Swashbucklers Finesse. So Swashbucklers can use a battleaxe, longsword, bastard sword etc. to add Dexterity to Attack rolls and Damage rolls.

But they can't use a rapier.

So Swashbucklers have to use a the agile enhancement just likes Rogues, and Bards do if they want dex to damage on rapiers.

I understand that, and it's a valid point from a flavor point of view.

However the scimitar/cutlass is mechanically the same weapon as the rapier, and swashbucklers are proficient in it. So this is nothing more than a feat tax for swashbucklers.

I mean, what are the other options? If they make a feat that lets you give dex to damage with finesse-able weapons other classes (rogue) would get it too easily. If they give it to the swashbuckler as a class feature then he gets dex damage AND precise strike, and they probably thought that that is too much power to be given "for free".

So they came up with this as the middle ground. Sadly, to me it feels a bit "clunky".

Jinete wrote:

Tels wrote:

I mean, Jirelle, the Iconic Swashbuckler for Pathfinder herself uses a rapier, but if she wants Dex to Damage for her rapier, she has to wait until 6th level. Or she can opt to use a battleaxe because it makes sense that the battleaxe is an elegant, graceful weapon used by those with great agility and speed.

I must have missed something. What happens at level 6?

You have enough money for a +1 Agile Rapier. Theoretically, anyway.

Oh. Well I'm not a big fan of using magic items to achieve something that should have been a class ability.

I can see the reasoning behind slashing grace though. If they had a feat that lets you use dex to damage with rapiers every rogue and bard would pick it up without thinking twice. This way it's pretty much exclusive to the swashbuckler.

But since this is the case I don't understand why they didn't give it to the swashbuckler as a class feature. Level 3, or even level 5 would have been acceptable...

I mean, Jirelle, the Iconic Swashbuckler for Pathfinder herself uses a rapier, but if she wants Dex to Damage for her rapier, she has to wait until 6th level. Or she can opt to use a battleaxe because it makes sense that the battleaxe is an elegant, graceful weapon used by those with great agility and speed.

I must have missed something. What happens at level 6?

So... this means that a Swashbuckler treats a battleaxe as a one-handed piercing weapon if he has Slashing Grace, which lets him use his dexterity score for both his attack rolls and damage rolls with his battleaxe.

Let me reiterate. He uses his dexterity for attack and damage with his batlleaxe!

Since a Rapier isn't a one-handed slahsing weapon, he can't get Dex to Damage with it. So the most iconic Swashbuckler weapon in all of film or literature history... cannot be used as effectively on the Swashbuckler class as an axe can.

This completely boggles my mind.

He probably won't though, since he needs the 18-20 crit range. So scimitar it is. Or a katana if he's prepared to spend an extra feat. Shame.

But what about the equipment section? Any new/cool weapons there?

Dylos wrote:

Kvantum wrote:

Kudaku wrote:

Asking on behalf of one of my players:

Is there an option (preferably a feat) to add dexterity to damage akin to Dervish Dance, but allowing more weapons? Ideally unarmed strikes. :)

Not unarmed, but there is one for any one-handed slashing weapon.

Do the prereqs restrict this feat to only a single class (i.e. Swashbuckler)?

After reading the feat I can say that Slashing Grace won't work with unarmed strikes since it requires you to pick a one-handed slashing weapon. I guess a claw attack could qualify though?

It is however class-agnostic, anyone can use it. I would expect it to come online at about level 5, or earlier if a class gets bonus feats. A human fighter could take it as early as level 1.

Doesn't Slashing Grace give the ability to use weapon finesse with a slashing weapon? At least that's how it was in the playtest. Or does it also give dex to damage now?