Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Mythic Realms (PFRPG)

Unless Paizo decides to do Deific Adventures. Which reminds me of BECMI.

Deific Adventures is pretty far down the line, if it happens at all.

That being said, the closer an entity comes to CR 30 the more feasible it is for them to take on a god and win. Lamashtu did it back when she was "merely" a demon lord.

Savith, an Azlanti heroine, also fought a true god and won, though she wasn't able to finish the job and merely left Ydersius crippled. She wrecked him pretty thoroughly.

The gods are ludicrously powerful (for example, IIRC, Desna created Black Butterfly while engaged in star arranging), but under very special circumstances they can be challenged and killed.

Odraude wrote:

I used to think that gods were unstattable, but admittedly, someone on these forums (I forget who) made me realize that I was looking at it through the scope of a monotheistic omnipotent god. As opposed to the pantheistic gods of Nordic, Greek, and other mythologies, which would plot against each other without the other knowing, and outright kill each other. Seeing it through that light, I can honestly say my view has changed and I'm okay with seeing gods statted up as CR 31+ creatures. Assuming there was a deific adventures coming out.

CR 31 is probably too weak for a god, isn't it? I mean, CR 31 and 30 are not all that different... I'd expect gods to revolve around the CR 35 mark.

Idk. Looking at the changes between CRs of 21 and 30, the difference in power gets greater and greater. I could see being a lesser deity at 31 feasible, while becoming one of the big members of the pantheon means going higher.

I would expect gods to revolve around the "outside of the CR system, fuggedaboutitpowergamer" mark.

Ah yes, the power gamer comment to dismiss those that want a type of adventure as the lesser gamer. How adorable.

DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:

I think Gods should be CR 26-30, and killable by CR 25 PCs.

That's a strong monster, not a god.

That's entirely a matter of personal preference. Hell, the loads of people asking for god/demigod stats shows that a lot of people think being able to kill demon lords isn't going far enough.

Personally I think putting them in the 26-30 range is perfect. Only heroes of the absolute highest caliber have any chance of defeating them. And it's not like there are just tons of PCs at that level running around. It is a truly mythic event.

Hey, the Ghostbusters defeated a god...

Kthulhu wrote:

DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:

I think Gods should be CR 26-30, and killable by CR 25 PCs.

That's a strong monster, not a god.

That's entirely a matter of personal preference. Hell, the loads of people asking for god/demigod stats shows that a lot of people think being able to kill demon lords isn't going far enough.

Pretty sure Paizo staff have said numerous times that they aren't interested in statting up their true deities. It just doesn't fall in line with their philosophy of what a god is in their multiverse (ie. gods are simply too powerful for PCs to tackle). Naturally, this doesn't mean that those who want to kill gods are playing the game wrong . . . it does appear to mean that such desires lay outside the scope of what Paizo envisions for their world and the people in it, however.

Thus, for those who wish to go on god-killing rampages, I say knock yourselves out . . . but your GM will have to do a little constructive stat-blocking of their own. In my former 2E campaigns, I gave my players numerous chances to put a god down for good. We played in Forgotten Realms, but even with all those gloriously beautiful deity books (Faiths & Avatars, Demihuman Deities, and Powers & Pantheons) full of avatar stats, I wouldn't let them off that easy! Gods shouldn't be a cakewalk. Deciding to take the fight to one of them should mean gruesome death to all heretics and blasphemers that try . . . except, on the rarest occasions, one might find that lucky few. ;)

Needless to say, I have no problems with Paizo's take that gods won't be statted up. I welcome it. If my players want to square off against a god, it's probably best if I do the deed myself anyway.

I'd prefer something along the lines of the old Immortals set, where gods do have stat blocks but they're not the same kind of stat blocks as mortals or even mythic beings and are really only for interacting with each other and creatures on a full-deific level.

Mechalibur wrote:

Kthulhu wrote:

DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:

I think Gods should be CR 26-30, and killable by CR 25 PCs.

That's a strong monster, not a god.

That's entirely a matter of personal preference. Hell, the loads of people asking for god/demigod stats shows that a lot of people think being able to kill demon lords isn't going far enough.

Pretty sure Paizo staff have said numerous times that they aren't interested in statting up their true deities. It just doesn't fall in line with their philosophy of what a god is in their multiverse (ie. gods are simply too powerful for PCs to tackle). Naturally, this doesn't mean that those who want to kill gods are playing the game wrong . . . it does appear to mean that such desires lay outside the scope of what Paizo envisions for their world and the people in it, however.

Thus, for those who wish to go on god-killing rampages, I say knock yourselves out . . . but your GM will have to do a little constructive stat-blocking of their own. In my former 2E campaigns, I gave my players numerous chances to put a god down for good. We played in Forgotten Realms, but even with all those gloriously beautiful deity books (Faiths & Avatars, Demihuman Deities, and Powers & Pantheons) full of avatar stats, I wouldn't let them off that easy! Gods shouldn't be a cakewalk. Deciding to take the fight to one of them should mean gruesome death to all heretics and blasphemers that try . . . except, on the rarest occasions, one might find that lucky few. ;)

Needless to say, I have no problems with Paizo's take that gods won't be statted up. I welcome it. If my players want to square off against a god, it's probably best if I do the deed myself anyway.

Admittedly, they've also said in regards to it that they never say never. And if the demand for it is high enough and they can work it out... who knows?

But I agree. Definitely shouldn't be a cakewalk. Should feel like an incredible accomplishment akin to, say, Zeus defeating Chronos. Or, more modern terms, the main character of Dark Souls defeating Gwyn the Lord of Cinder.

If a cleric's power can exceed that of their god, then the system that allows that is moronic.

If a cleric's power can exceed that of their god, then the system that allows that is moronic.

It's only as moronic as you make it. Who is to say that the cleric doesn't become the inheritor of that god's title? We already have precedent with Iomedae becoming the inheritor of Aroden's role with his death. I could easily see the god retiring to a paradise, passing the torch to the cleric. Which would make a very good in-game reason for the fluff.

Gods shouldn't be a cakewalk. Deciding to take the fight to one of them should mean gruesome death to all heretics and blasphemers that try . . . except, on the rarest occasions, one might find that lucky few. ;)

"First rule of deicide: do not miss." (Athena in a Marvel Comics book)

I like to envision killing a god as something like the death of Morpheus (aka Dream) in Neil Gaiman's Sandman. Or the death of Ouranos at the hands of Chronos, then the death of Chronos at the hands of Zeus : the killer inherits his victim's mantle, basically becoming his victim (with all powers, roles and responsibilities) while keeping some personality traits.

If a cleric's power can exceed that of their god, then the system that allows that is moronic.

With mythic rules I could see a situation now where a witch or an oracle could potentially become as powerful as thier patrons or at least pretty close.

Not that I would personally have a game where clerics get to the point they would become more powerful than their god, but if a group was going to do that it could be reasoned that is just one more reason to let clerics worship a broad universal concept in Pathfinder and not be forced into worshiping a specific individual who's beliefs and portfolios also happen to coincide with those concepts.

Well, according to th erule book, with GM permission, they can.

That is because the rule book is setting-neutral.

In a setting with limited, polytheistic gods, I think stats for gods make lots of sense.

(And in fact, bits like Ydersius getting semi-killed make me think they SHOULD be there, so the PCs can do things as impressive as the great heroes of history.)

That doesn't necessarily mean gods need to be "just bigger monsters" though. They could be defeatable, but not killable, like the Greek gods -- Ares was driven from the field by Diomedes (though he was "boosted" by Athena in that fight). Hercules wrestled the minor god Achelous and defeated him (though in PF terms he'd probably be more like a Mythic Fey or Native Outsider) as well as Apollo (neither won -- Zeus broke up the fight before either could.)

In a setting with limited, polytheistic gods, I think stats for gods make lots of sense.

(And in fact, bits like Ydersius getting semi-killed make me think they SHOULD be there, so the PCs can do things as impressive as the great heroes of history.)

That doesn't necessarily mean gods need to be "just bigger monsters" though. They could be defeatable, but not killable, like the Greek gods -- Ares was driven from the field by Diomedes (though he was "boosted" by Athena in that fight). Hercules wrestled the minor god Achelous and defeated him (though in PF terms he'd probably be more like a Mythic Fey or Native Outsider) as well as Apollo (neither won -- Zeus broke up the fight before either could.)

What about the Norse gods, though, which could die? There are more pantheons to take after than just the Grecian.

Hey, the Ghostbusters defeated a god...

Gozer was specifically referred to as a demigod, actually, and was really more of a Great Old One. And when I get Bestiary 4 with the Great Old One creature type I fully intend to create stats for Gozer the Gozerian, who is also the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, and the Traveller.

I figure being equipped with positron collider particle beam throwers added at least +20 to the guys' CR.

Mechalibur wrote:

Kthulhu wrote:

DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:

I think Gods should be CR 26-30, and killable by CR 25 PCs.

That's a strong monster, not a god.

That's entirely a matter of personal preference. Hell, the loads of people asking for god/demigod stats shows that a lot of people think being able to kill demon lords isn't going far enough.

Pretty sure Paizo staff have said numerous times that they aren't interested in statting up their true deities. It just doesn't fall in line with their philosophy of what a god is in their multiverse (ie. gods are simply too powerful for PCs to tackle). Naturally, this doesn't mean that those who want to kill gods are playing the game wrong . . . it does appear to mean that such desires lay outside the scope of what Paizo envisions for their world and the people in it, however.

Thus, for those who wish to go on god-killing rampages, I say knock yourselves out . . . but your GM will have to do a little constructive stat-blocking of their own. In my former 2E campaigns, I gave my players numerous chances to put a god down for good. We played in Forgotten Realms, but even with all those gloriously beautiful deity books (Faiths & Avatars, Demihuman Deities, and Powers & Pantheons) full of avatar stats, I wouldn't let them off that easy! Gods shouldn't be a cakewalk. Deciding to take the fight to one of them should mean gruesome death to all heretics and blasphemers that try . . . except, on the rarest occasions, one might find that lucky few. ;)

Needless to say, I have no problems with Paizo's take that gods won't be statted up. I welcome it. If my players want to square off against a god, it's probably best if I do the deed myself anyway.

I'm well aware Paizo has said they aren't statting up gods. I was just saying it's a request that shows up a lot. The point was to bring up hoe variable personal preference is on the matter, not what Paizo is likely or unlikely to do.

KtA wrote:

In a setting with limited, polytheistic gods, I think stats for gods make lots of sense.

(And in fact, bits like Ydersius getting semi-killed make me think they SHOULD be there, so the PCs can do things as impressive as the great heroes of history.)

That doesn't necessarily mean gods need to be "just bigger monsters" though. They could be defeatable, but not killable, like the Greek gods -- Ares was driven from the field by Diomedes (though he was "boosted" by Athena in that fight). Hercules wrestled the minor god Achelous and defeated him (though in PF terms he'd probably be more like a Mythic Fey or Native Outsider) as well as Apollo (neither won -- Zeus broke up the fight before either could.)

What about the Norse gods, though, which could die? There are more pantheons to take after than just the Grecian.

Sure. I suggested "defeatable, but not killable" as an option for those who object to killable gods. It's not necessarily what I would do if I were statting them up myself.

Evil Midnight Lurker wrote:

James Jacobs wrote:

Quandary wrote:

Are the Mythic Rules the necessary element to write up more of Casmaron/Kelesh Empire?

Or is that also hinging on Psionics like Vudra is?

We can't do Casmaron without Vudra, and thus can't do Casmaron without psionics.

Have you considered, or at least taken a look at, Dreamscarred Press's books?

They've taken 3.5 psionics and put them through the wringer until they're actually good and reasonably balanced, and with a lot more variety than the original. You could do a lot worse than integrate their stuff.

I've looked at Dreamscarred's books, yeah. They're the logical starting place for what we want to do with psychic magic, but they won't work as-is, since we're not going to do a point-based system for this type of magic. Which is why we're calling it psychic magic and not psionics–it's based on the same concept (magic/supernatural powers from the mind) but it's not the same rules. The actual rules will likely work just like magic... but will be a new category that exists alongside the categories of "arcane" and "divine" magic.

Will this type of magic be in the Advanced Classes Guide?

Aren't there other threads about statting gods? Ones more topical than a product thread?

Mythic Tirisfal wrote:

Hey, the Ghostbusters defeated a god...

Gozer was specifically referred to as a demigod, actually, and was really more of a Great Old One. And when I get Bestiary 4 with the Great Old One creature type I fully intend to create stats for Gozer the Gozerian, who is also the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, and the Traveller.

I figure being equipped with positron collider particle beam throwers added at least +20 to the guys' CR.

Maybe those weapons would have very powerful dispelling and banishing effects. +20 CR is pretty crazy, lol.

James Jacobs wrote:

Evil Midnight Lurker wrote:

James Jacobs wrote:

Quandary wrote:

Are the Mythic Rules the necessary element to write up more of Casmaron/Kelesh Empire?

Or is that also hinging on Psionics like Vudra is?

We can't do Casmaron without Vudra, and thus can't do Casmaron without psionics.

Have you considered, or at least taken a look at, Dreamscarred Press's books?

They've taken 3.5 psionics and put them through the wringer until they're actually good and reasonably balanced, and with a lot more variety than the original. You could do a lot worse than integrate their stuff.

I've looked at Dreamscarred's books, yeah. They're the logical starting place for what we want to do with psychic magic, but they won't work as-is, since we're not going to do a point-based system for this type of magic. Which is why we're calling it psychic magic and not psionics–it's based on the same concept (magic/supernatural powers from the mind) but it's not the same rules. The actual rules will likely work just like magic... but will be a new category that exists alongside the categories of "arcane" and "divine" magic.

Will this type of magic be in the Advanced Classes Guide?

So far, the general tone of comments has been "We haven't really put any work into it yet", so I would not expect it to be so.

Any subscribers got PDF's yet?

Subscription shipments/PDF unlocks should begin today. Still an hour or until business hours, I think.

magnuskn wrote:

I would expect gods to revolve around the "outside of the CR system, fuggedaboutitpowergamer" mark.

Ah yes, the power gamer comment to dismiss those that want a type of adventure as the lesser gamer. How adorable.

Sorry, but "I want to kill a GOD!" is basically the definition of powergaming.

Odraude wrote:

magnuskn wrote:

I would expect gods to revolve around the "outside of the CR system, fuggedaboutitpowergamer" mark.

Ah yes, the power gamer comment to dismiss those that want a type of adventure as the lesser gamer. How adorable.

Sorry, but "I want to kill a GOD!" is basically the definition of powergaming.

Yeah, but "Oh s~%+, we're going to have to kill a GOD!" can be a great game.

Odraude wrote:

magnuskn wrote:

I would expect gods to revolve around the "outside of the CR system, fuggedaboutitpowergamer" mark.

Ah yes, the power gamer comment to dismiss those that want a type of adventure as the lesser gamer. How adorable.

Sorry, but "I want to kill a GOD!" is basically the definition of powergaming.

YMMV

Personally, striking a blow against a god would be thrilling.

That said, Urgathoa is going to be taking a much more personal role at the end of my HEAVILY modified Carrion Crown game...

False equivalence, Magnus. Ambition does not equal powergaming.

"I want to challenge and kill Lamashtu" is not the same thing as "If I'm a _____ with the _____ mythic path and have [insert perfect set of equipment here] and take the [x, y, and z] feats/abilities I should be able to kill [insert BBEG that I read the statblock for] in 1 round, right? Right?"

Still, having sufficient system mastery can help a LOT, because when you're shooting for the moon, it's good to know how to hit it.

To be more on topic, this book should be sweet, and I look forward to reading it.

Not going to lie, ever since I saw Urgathoa, I've always wanted to use her as a sort of end-boss in a campaign.

For her to show up, bend reality around her, and taunt the PCs for daring to oppose her plans before vanishing and attacking them as an even greater avatar would be MYTHICALLY RAD.

I don't want them to "kill" a god, but I would love for them to knock her back to Abaddon to lick her wounds.

The general feeling I'm hoping to elicit is "daaaaang, we pissed off Urgathoa! High-fives!" while she's seething at them :)

<shrug> In my personal experience (so, yes, YMMV), gods are one of the last things which keeps players from totally flipping out with arrogance when they reach the highest levels of the game. Hence I think that they should stay invincible when confronted by mortals, even mythic ones.

If they get too powerful for you, you can always handwave it and say "whelp, you folks are all gods now. Roll new characters - you can worship your previous characters if you want :D"

OH @#$% STAR TOWERS. :D

ridiculously relevant to the Mythic campaign I want to run

Not only is there a lot coming out of those, we also get just a little bit more insight into Dou-Bral too!

OH @#$% STAR TOWERS. :D

ridiculously relevant to the Mythic campaign I want to run

Not only is there a lot coming out of those, we also get just a little bit more insight into Dou-Bral too!

How's the Tyrant? He's the whole reason I wanna get this next week D:

So I was already planning on picking Mythic Origins for its player crunch. How's the crunch in this product, Mikaze? More specifically, tell us about those trial-unique path abilities.

Got my download for it now. Going to pull it, Mythic Origins and Sword of Valor down now to take a look. Given how much I've loved Mythic so far, I'm pretty excited.

How's the Tyrant?

Cool. No giant surprises, but he delivers. Wizard 20 Mythic Lich (Variant) at CR 26 / MR 10. He's got the Horns (I'm glad to see those didn't get missed), can animate dead with a touch, has no limit to the number of undead he can raise and control, and his phylactery was hidden away by Urgathoa beyond the sight of the gods.

Highlights on my end thusfar (from only a brief lookover):
* The Ouliphant, which has a realm that it guards deep within the Maelstrom
* More info on the Star Towers
* Full city info on Mechitar
* Gazetteer of The Black Desert

To answer an earlier question: The Dark Comet is a Void Dragon. She is indeed acting as a champion of Rovagug, though her origins lie in the Dark Tapestry.

Biggest surprise:
* The Starstone. Its origin and what grants ascension from it are detailed. Fairly different from what I expected, but I approve of a full history / description actually being given instead of it just staying a big mystery.

Other notes:
* I like the unique-to-ascension-method powers for the fonts. I think they add a fair bit of flavor to the fonts.
* So many things I've been waiting to see. I've been waiting for the mythic/epic stuff for years, and I'm delighted to see how it's turned out so far.

I am rather disappointed with the Starstone. (Edit: maybe not so much?)

I'd rule it per your edit. I certainly think that makes sense in-setting, and the start of the chapter says that claiming power from another of these fonts can "grant players a new mythic tier" if it "makes sense within the campaign's narrative".

I am rather disappointed with the Starstone. (Edit: maybe not so much?)

** spoiler omitted **

Huh I thought you would get divine source like a free mythic power or something.

I'd rule it per your edit. I certainly think that makes sense in-setting, and the start of the chapter says that claiming power from another of these fonts can "grant players a new mythic tier" if it "makes sense within the campaign's narrative".

** spoiler omitted **

Makes sense with Iomaedae, but that doesn't well explain Cayden or Norgerber.

Norgorber? Who knows what was going on with that guy. He could have gone in already-mythic. He could have faked ascension and fully become deific later. There's enough secrets surrounding what he did there that I don't really see a problem with him.

Cayden? Yeah, I admit that the rules for it are a bit weaker for explaining him. I'd probably go with:

I'd rule it per your edit. I certainly think that makes sense in-setting, and the start of the chapter says that claiming power from another of these fonts can "grant players a new mythic tier" if it "makes sense within the campaign's narrative".

Ah, I missed that bit. It helps.

What does it have on the Mordent Spire?

O.O cool! What specific power does it grant?

A 2 page section on the area that includes a Font of Mythic Power.

Also a bit of info on the elves guarding the place.

Edit: EML beat me to it.

Powers are the ability to move underwater with water breathing and aquatic tremorsense, the goddess's voice warning you of danger to let you act in the surprise round, and focusing to gain arcane sight in your peripheral vision. All are use-activated and cost power points.

Another, much smaller disappointment: when mention was made of a map of the area surrounding the Pit of Gormuz, I assumed that was the surface territories of old Ninshabur. It's actually a cross-section of the Pit itself. Oh well, Casmaron'll happen in its own tiime.

@Tirisfal and Alexander:

Sorry for being slow on the draw, but after two days with no sleep my brain is actually exhausted at the time and I no comprehension two good write now on the mechanics side of things(I still have to read all of Mythic Adventures...).

Lord Gadigan's got it covered though.

Gotta say, the Mordant Spire just got a lot more of my attention. :)

(oh @#$%, Mother Ravel makes a comeback too as a Mythic NPC)

Star Tower-specific mythic abilities are all things you might expect of their curates or evocative of what the towers themselves do, like sealing away the supernatural abilities of others and "Shadowcat-ing".

Black Desert is creepy looking, but exactly like I imagined it.. D:

That map of the Pit of Gormuz is actually pretty terrifying in its presentation and unexpected scope. I knew there was a lot going on there, but damn.