Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Chronicle of the Righteous (PFRPG)

The concept of "purity" is explicitly not tied to celibacy in Champions. Different Empyreal Lords have different approaches to the whole thing, however.

That's kind of disappointing. Why is that. Thre are already plenty of representations of sexual freedom in the setting, it would kind of be nice to expand past that and open up.

I hope at least one of those new celestials is an angel.

I can't wait for this book just two more months to go.

I wonder how many pages we are getting for new spells and magic items?

Jessica Price wrote:

The concept of "purity" is explicitly not tied to celibacy in Champions. Different Empyreal Lords have different approaches to the whole thing, however.

That's kind of disappointing. Why is that. Thre are already plenty of representations of sexual freedom in the setting, it would kind of be nice to expand past that and open up.

Because, all the gods and demi-gods/powers of Golarion, knows that it is a number's game.

Celibacy does not help with making more worshipers.

:D

It's actually not a numbers game at all in Golarion. Officially, deities do not require or benefit from followers, do not need them to be divine, and will not grow weaker if all their followers leave. The Empyreal Lords also really don't care about worshipers, which is kind of what makes them differnt than the deities. They can focus totally on their goals and areas of power rather than needing to worry about worshipers and splinter faiths. :)

The NPC wrote:

I don't know. I don't see one the fellows using artificial means for a temporary means of mind "Expansion."

Cool stuff

Self mortification and other altered states of being usually all converge on the attempt to "escape one's body", and as mentioned by Jessica, show up in TONS of different religions. Self denial of the basic needs that punctuate your station in the universe (food, joy, sex, comfort, your own senses, etc), can, in some cultures, lift you into the realms that are usually unattainable by your rank.

Temporary "mind expansion" is more than just getting high/drunk in these cultures/religions, its a way to shed your icky human skin and reach into the heavens and commune with greater beings than you - its not something I would consider to be inherently "good" or "evil", so I don't know why a good-aligned celestial would necessarily be against it.

Budai is an awesome example of the religious trope that is emphasized by Cayden Cailean - I'd even go so far as to peg Budai as Chaotic Good, too.

Budai is the Chinese folkloric hero that reached enlightenment and became a Buddha by being as Ke$ha as he possibly could: partying, drinking, poor decision-making, and probably glitter. He was a Buddha of contentment; happiness despite lack of worldly riches. He made up for his lack of riches by partying with people any chance he got; so drinking heavily might make you a Buddha :)

Jessica Price wrote:

The concept of "purity" is explicitly not tied to celibacy in Champions. Different Empyreal Lords have different approaches to the whole thing, however.

That's kind of disappointing. Why is that. Thre are already plenty of representations of sexual freedom in the setting, it would kind of be nice to expand past that and open up.

I don't think she's saying that celibacy is on the outs with purity. It just doesn't have a monopoly on the concept of purity. It's going to be one of many approaches to it. That way the chaste nun isn't going to be on a higher or lower moral plane than the playful and caring lover guy.

Also have to give props for tackling the traditions involving stuff like peyote head on. That's something I didn't expect, and I fully trust that it'll be given a nuanced approach(like the real world traditions that Jessica's already mentioned) rather than what some might initially fear(Empyreals of LEGALIZE IT). ;)

Budai is an awesome example of the religious trope that is emphasized by Cayden Cailean - I'd even go so far as to peg Budai as Chaotic Good, too.

Budai is the Chinese folkloric hero that reached enlightenment and became a Buddha by being as Ke$ha as he possibly could: partying, drinking, poor decision-making, and probably glitter. He was a Buddha of contentment; happiness despite lack of worldly riches. He made up for his lack of riches by partying with people any chance he got; so drinking heavily might make you a Buddha :)

Now I kinda want to play in a party alongside adherents of Cayden, Budai, and Pinkie Pie.

Devil's Advocate: As Mikaze noted, I'm not saying that there aren't any faith systems in Golarion tying celibacy to purity -- I'm saying that the vanilla version of purity isn't celibacy. Different faiths may add their own flavors to it, but it's not an automatic association.

Mikaze: I don't remember how head-on it is. :-) It might be more just a nuance. Don't want to promise anything that isn't in there because we sent it out a while ago and my exact memory of reading it is overlaid with a lot of "OMG WE HAVE TO GET THIS BOOK TO THE PRINTER." I just remember catching a bunch of different similarities to different earth traditions and thinking, "oh, I'm happy we included that...and that!...and that!"

I agree different faiths with different ideas of what is right or good. This will be an interesting read.

I have the Know Direction podcast which is titled Homosexuality in Golarion waiting on my phone to be listened to, so this this will be interesting, along with this release

Three campaign setting books in May?

The product schedule entry for May doesn't include Dragons Unleashed, so I suspect that one might get bumped to June.

Also - no Campaign Setting book in April, so this one is in My due to being delayed.

Damn, wish this got bumped back to April...ah, well.

I'm an agathion fan, so I'm wondering if there will be a new type?
I'm hoping for a remake of the lupinal from 3.0's MM2, or the musteval from Exalted (though as a CR 2, I guess the silvanshee takes its place).

Hyperative ferret celestial stealing those devil's socks and shiny things!

ALL OF MY YES!

No previews yet?

Don't know if this has been mentioned up thread at all but am I the only one hoping for a "tempter for good"? I would love to see a succubus styled azata or angel who's eternal goal is to tempt evil into either joining the forces of good or aiding good through their actions.

Doc, you may be.

Don't know if this has been mentioned up thread at all but am I the only one hoping for a "tempter for good"? I would love to see a succubus styled azata or angel who's eternal goal is to tempt evil into either joining the forces of good or aiding good through their actions.

Nah, I'm there with ya, doc. :)

doc the grey wrote:

Don't know if this has been mentioned up thread at all but am I the only one hoping for a "tempter for good"? I would love to see a succubus styled azata or angel who's eternal goal is to tempt evil into either joining the forces of good or aiding good through their actions.

Nah, I'm there with ya, doc. :)

thanks, it always bugs me that there seems to be this monopoly on duplicity amongst non good alignments while good is forced to always be upfront and honest about everything. Now I can maybe see that for LG but CG azatas are just begging for some interesting tricksters for good to come along and con evil into good.

All I want at the end of the day is to see an outsider who provokes the lines "Damn you good! You've made me care about the welfare of others and want to see everyone treated with care and respect!"

Barring that the idea of an angel or other good outsider who literally stops a demonic incursion by convincing half the army betray the other because it is "Would bring more chaos then anyone could imagine!" mixed in with insinuations of said side being able to become the new masters of their piece of the abyss while said angels just watch and mop up what survives is too just cool.

doc, you just gave me a weird thought...

How does angels interrogate demons? Feather + tickle torture? @_@...

I think exploring the various shades of LG and good in general is worth several volumes Doc. I like where you're coming from, and others in this thread. For my part, I'd like to see some vehement disagreements portrayed between CG and LG outsiders. It's always kind of bugged me that the good guys pretty much always get along. SURE, I get that they are devoted to the welfare and uplifting of goodly forces in the multiverse. But an Azata is as diametrically wired from an Angel as an Inevitable is from a Protean. There HAS to be some kind of friction worth delving into there.

It's probably well beyond the scope of this particular book, but it might be nice to at least see one lawful good Empyreal Lord having a mention made about how they have a deep and abiding disagreement running with a chaotic good Empyreal Lord. Taking a nod from An Unexpected Journey: "...Do not speak to me of Radagast the Brown. He is a foolish fellow..."

It might be neat to see a Chaotic Good 'crossroads angel' type of Azata that shows up to desperate people who are trying to find a way to make a deal with a fiend to get out of some terrible circumstances, such as the sickness of a child, by appearing before they find their goal and leading them to a better solution (such as guiding them to a good cleric who can heal their loved one), or, in the case of someone who has ignorantly attempted such a summons, but lacked the knowledge or power to conjure a true fiend, appears in the guise of what they thought they were going to summon and 'makes a deal' with them that gives them what they sought, in exchange for a series of good deeds.

... an Azata is as diametrically wired from an Angel as an Inevitable is from a Protean.

(Apologies for my nit-picking habit.)

I think that you mean Archon (must be LG) there, not Angel (can be any flavour of Good).

But an Azata is as diametrically wired from an Angel as an Inevitable is from a Protean. There HAS to be some kind of friction worth delving into there.

...No, an Inevitable and a Protean have absolutely nothing in common; Azatas and Angels (edit: Archons?) are both good.

thanks, it always bugs me that there seems to be this monopoly on duplicity amongst non good alignments while good is forced to always be upfront and honest about everything. Now I can maybe see that for LG but CG azatas are just begging for some interesting tricksters for good to come along and con evil into good.

All I want at the end of the day is to see an outsider who provokes the lines "Damn you good! You've made me care about the welfare of others and want to see everyone treated with care and respect!"

Barring that the idea of an angel or other good outsider who literally stops a demonic incursion by convincing half the army betray the other because it is "Would bring more chaos then anyone could imagine!" mixed in with insinuations of said side being able to become the new masters of their piece of the abyss while said angels just watch and mop up what survives is too just cool.

She may not be Good, but Calistria has a truly awesome instance of that under her belt. :)

And yeah, I do love the idea of some kinds of celestials tricking folks into the "Good Feels Good" trope.

Also @Doc the grey, self-plugging, but: If you're looking for celestials that use trickery to get good done... :D

doc, you just gave me a weird thought...

How does angels interrogate demons? Feather + tickle torture? @_@...

"Inflicting" the capacity for empathy and remorse, perhaps? It's territory they'd have to tread carefully, but there could be something there.

For my part, I'd like to see some vehement disagreements portrayed between CG and LG outsiders.

There's probably a lot of fun to be had in exploring just how celestials carry out these disagreements when it moves beyond debate. Sure, if it's outright warfare, someone somewhere is probably falling. But uncompromised celestials could still come to blows, so to speak, using any number of non-lethal and fantastic methods. Like temporary petrification for archons. Animal/plant polymorphing for angels/agathions. Synaesthesia bombing for azatas. Stuff that focuses on subduing or removal from the conflict rather than killing.

Have to wonder how many azatas might actually be in archon jails at the moment. And for what and how long? On the flipside, maybe there's some archon who's been prepetually distracted by some party azatas keep throwing for him.

It might be neat to see a Chaotic Good 'crossroads angel' type of Azata that shows up to desperate people who are trying to find a way to make a deal with a fiend to get out of some terrible circumstances, such as the sickness of a child, by appearing before they find their goal and leading them to a better solution (such as guiding them to a good cleric who can heal their loved one), or, in the case of someone who has ignorantly attempted such a summons, but lacked the knowledge or power to conjure a true fiend, appears in the guise of what they thought they were going to summon and 'makes a deal' with them that gives them what they sought, in exchange for a series of good deeds.

Want this.

Want This

Well you're going to have to eat your meat before you get your pudding.

I think that you mean Archon (must be LG) there, not Angel (can be any flavour of Good).

Ah criminy! Thanks for the kick, that's embarrassing.

...No, an Inevitable and a Protean have absolutely nothing in common; Azatas and Angels (edit: Archons?) are both good.

My mistake, nothing to see here. Sorry bro!

I swear I will get my goggles of anti-ineptitude on the next time...

(•_•)
( •_•)<⌐⃝-⃝
(⌐⃝_⃝)

In my 'Engine of Creation' notion, I posited that Archons, Axiomites, Inevitables and Devils might (begrudgingly, and with the occasional friendly fire 'accident') end up working together to protect some important site of law, something that perhaps helped to form the universe from the primordial chaos of the Maelstrom in the first place, from waves of Proteans (and the occasional Qlippoth) seeking to tear it down and let the universe return to 'its natural state of undifferentiated chaos.'

Azata would tend to sit this one out, as they aren't as invested in safeguarding law, but neither do they explicitly want to 'tear it all down.'

A Law vs. Chaos divide as meaningful as the ubiquitous Good vs. Evil tropes would be a neat shout out to the old, old-school D&D, where it was all Law vs. Chaos, and reminiscent of Moorcock's Elric saga (or Babylon 5's Vorlons vs. Shadows situation, where it was easy at first to fall into the 'Law = Good' and 'Chaos = Evil' trope, but increasingly became clear that the 'good' Vorlons were anything but...).

But that sort of thing wouldn't really be relevant to books focused explicitly on fleshing out options for good aligned characters and options. Any sort of development on the red-headed alignment stepchildren of law and chaos would be welcome 'though! (And perhaps lead to some interesting development options for Irori, Calistria, Abadar and Gorum!)

I think exploring the various shades of LG and good in general is worth several volumes Doc. I like where you're coming from, and others in this thread. For my part, I'd like to see some vehement disagreements portrayed between CG and LG outsiders. It's always kind of bugged me that the good guys pretty much always get along. SURE, I get that they are devoted to the welfare and uplifting of goodly forces in the multiverse. But an Azata is as diametrically wired from an Angel as an Inevitable is from a Protean. There HAS to be some kind of friction worth delving into there.

It's probably well beyond the scope of this particular book, but it might be nice to at least see one lawful good Empyreal Lord having a mention made about how they have a deep and abiding disagreement running with a chaotic good Empyreal Lord. Taking a nod from An Unexpected Journey: "...Do not speak to me of Radagast the Brown. He is a foolish fellow..."

Wow cool to see so much discussion on this ^-^. In my mind though I would love to see them take the angle that they really do get along most of the time. To me it seems one of the biggest powers of good is that they can cooperate and I would love to see it set up where even though good outsiders do have issues they will more often then not cooperate and work together with one another and usually avoid actual open conflict with those that do being the ones that fall from grace. That being said I am with everyone in wanting to see their differences

Ohh and on the grounds of the crossroads demon trope what would be even better is an angel who's purpose is to be "captured" by planar binding cultists and uses his detainment as a way to seed their minds with good. Could you imagine a game where you have to work with a cult that is being manipulated toward good by the vary outsiders they have captured and been interrogating? Things i want to see from azatas and agathions

Has the release date been changed?

Any previews available?

Any previews available?

This was on the blog last Tuesday.

Are there going to be any empyreal lords that would work for an alchemist? We got one demon lord for alchemy, there should be a counter empyreal for that as well.

Thanks Adam! I saw it!

Thanks Adam! I saw it!

Cool! Just making sure. :)

Are there going to be any empyreal lords that would work for an alchemist? We got one demon lord for alchemy, there should be a counter empyreal for that as well.

I am hoping for one as well - I'm thinking agathion, but azata would be just as likely.

Are there going to be any empyreal lords that would work for an alchemist?

Yes.

zergtitan wrote:

Are there going to be any empyreal lords that would work for an alchemist?

Yes.

Nice. By the way AWESOME Llama picture, brightened my day. :)

It looks like this will have roughly the same format as Lords of Chaos, but with Empyreal rather then Demon lords. It's great that the good guys are taking the spotlight for once.

(or Babylon 5's Vorlons vs. Shadows situation, where it was easy at first to fall into the 'Law = Good' and 'Chaos = Evil' trope, but increasingly became clear that the 'good' Vorlons were anything but...).

That mistake was made easier by having one of the best of the Vorlons as the only one anyone on the show interacted with. You find out later how different he was than the rest.

Hmm, I wonder if the Mystery Cultist PRC will blend well with a Mystic Theruge?

Did anyone else notice that even though this book is about powerful celestial beings of good and yet they are calling there helpers "minions"?

Did anyone else notice that even though this book is about powerful celestial beings of good and yet they are calling there helpers "minions"?

Which would you prefer? 'Subjects' or 'Lackeys'?

I think that a PrC dealing with serving Good should grant an Aura of Good. And vice versa, of course. For flavor.

"Subjects" would be a lot better then "minions", but how about "followers", "believers", "friends", "comrades", etc.

I believe the term "minions" in question refers to avatars, heralds, helpers and underlings.

Also, being Good does not mean you can't be condescending ;-)

Sorry, but the term "minion" will always sound like a villain thing to me.

'Minion' actually has more to do with the relative importance of the follower than the character of the leader.

My theory is that it's just that an evil leader is more inclined to treat his followers like dirt than a good leader, so we associate the term minion with those downtrodden followers of an evil leader.

Or, to state it another way, the context the word is usually used in has colored our personal definitions of the word. (I had to check the dictionary, but it agreed with the non-alignment-based use of the word.)

I hope that to a large extent that the entities depicted in this book reflect 'good' from the humanoid or mortal perspective.

AS a B5 fan, I appreciate the comments that have been shared about the Vorlons, and I agree with them. At the same time I hope this book doesn't have any "Vorlons" in them with their distant and alien ethics. Or rather, such notions of character design are reserved for inevitables or proteans.

One thing I have really enjoyed about Golarion's cosmology is that alignment really seems to start with mortal creatures and radiates out to the Outer Planes.

This is opposed to the original D&D cosmological model (as I understood it) where the Outer Planes were the source of alignment—which focused inwards toward the mortal plane. Perhaps I misunderstood the way the cosmology worked, so pardon me if that was inaccurate.

To me it is a question of where does good and evil begin? Some alien abstract dimension? Or in the hearts and souls of mortal folk?

My impression that as where Golarion is concerned, such things begin with mortals.. and those mortals (unintentionally) create those abstract alien places like the Abyss, Hell, Heaven, and Elysium.

So to get back on topic, I would want my Good Outsiders to be derived from the concept of what is good from a mortal perspective.

A little more rambling behind the spoiler tag, but not really a spoiler (just did it for length)

Law vs. Chaos was one of the core themes of Planescape, abut the Golarion developers have explicitly said they're not trying to duplicate Planescape (e.g. there's no "Blood War" between devils and demons).

Maybe I'm just a goody-goody, but to me one of the strengths of good vs. evil is that they ARE more able to find a way to work together despite divergent philosophies. So, while evil has a whole host of tactics available to it that are barred from good (abuse of innocents, wanton duplicity, torture, etc.), good has the advantage that individuals can trust their allies not to turn on them when the allies have a chance for personal gain.

As such, I like to see the lawful and chaotic good outsiders more buddy-buddy and working together than their evil counterparts.