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And Set, the old Dame Zuggtmoy deserves some grognard respect, she's got pedigree and history in the game in spades (see Temple of Elemental Evil), and in the 80's, with Lolth and Finnish Kiputyttö, made life a living lower plane for my group of players.
Eh. She was a pushover, from what I remember. :)
I wonder how many Empyreal Lords will be in this book.
I would assume they would in this book.
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I hope they clarify if Ragathiel is an Angel or an Archon.
Given his origins, he might be something much stranger than either. ;)
Also, I hope Melek Taus gets some love in this book.
If there's a page similar to the "Dead/Missing/Previous Archfiends" sections in the Book of the Damned volumes, she might be the featured character on it. (there's also Sarenrae's maybe possibly is-she? fallen-angel daughter mentioned in BotD 2...
Oooh, I'd LOVE a section on half-celestials/half-fiends...
Is there anything that states that Melek Taus has 'fallen,' or is that just my own wild notion that I've mistaken for canon?
Edit: And wow, now that I've googled Melek Taus, that notion seems even less like something I made up... :)
The notion is out there in TGB and a KQ web piece, but it's never outright stated 'yes, Melek Taus fell'. She's just missing, has a title similar to an evil Thassilonian divinity, and an obscure race in the Abyss possibly tied to a fall from LG to CE. It's very strongly suggested, -but- it's not absolutely pinned specifically to preserve the mystery and allow DMs (or future canon) to go down a different road). It might yet go a very different route.
:)
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Yeah, Melek Taus' real world religious roots are...complicated to say the least. ;)
Y'know, if the Empyreal Lords all get artwork, or at least those that are already established...Arshea's art order must be tricky one.
"Okay...so...we're going to need him/her nude but presentable. And s/he needs to be right on the knife's edge of male/female androgynous beauty. So...do you think you could give us a gender-ambiguous cross between Tilda Swinton and Cillian Murphy, naked but safe for mass market release in about two months? No pressure!"
Alternately there's always the route that's been taken with Gozreh's artwork.
Up until now I thought Ragathiel was the biggest wildcard for "What are they going to look like?"
Alright, alright, alright, alright. Info dump:
First off, from what I'm seeing discussed here, most of you are going to be very, very pleased. Even more pleased if you check out Player Companion: Champions of Purity, which is the player-focused companion to this, with a focus on playing seriously good character of all classes. There's definitely going to be new rules in here, but at lot of those straddle the GM/player line. I'm setting this up like another entry into the Book of the Damned series format-wise, so if you look back at some of those you can probably guess the format (hope you liked those "From the Book..." spreads, because there's more on the way!).
Is this covering a specific subtype (Agathion, Angels, Archons, Azatas, Garuda, or Peri) or is this a more general reference for the celestial races as a whole?
The focus in on the four big "A" races. As the alignment paragons of their planes (plus angels which are their own special thing) these races are our good daemons, devils, and demons so we wanted to make sure they got treatment. But while I trust a book on angels would be popular, I can't see people getting worked up in droves over the "azatas book." So we're putting them all together this time. If this does well, heck, it might warrant more down the line. Prove me wrong folks. :)
Lets see what else we've got here...
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After the dark decades of renegade drow and snarky tieflings and anti-heroes, the clouds part and it becomes cool to be *good* again. (Says the guy with an evil god as his avatar, sans irony.)
Some more sub-domains for followers of the Empyreal Lords could be awesome, perhaps based on the seven virtues or similar 'good' concepts like mercy, forgiveness, charity, hope, trust, self-sacrifice, etc.
Yeah, we're doing a LOT of good guy stuff next year, largely in response to criticisms JUST like this. 'Cause you're right. As GMs at the core, I think we all tend to get really wrapped up in the villains, leaving the good guy stuff for the PCs. As cynical bastards, I think many of us are inherently suspicious of the good guys, hence many "he looks good but he's really bad" type plots.
Regardless of the psychoses behind it, it's definitely created a gap in our offerings, one we're looking to fill starting in early 2013. So be sure to check out this, Champions of Purity, Demon Hunter's Handbook, and the whole Wrath of the Righteous Adventure Path next year!
I would be positively ecstatic, I mean like giggling maniacally, to see celestials given three books.
Lets see how one goes and we'll take it from there. ;)
Or "Buy the books and spread the word".
That's how it works folks! I hate to sound like a shill, but anytime someone asks how they can help us keep doing awesome stuff I tell them that sales are one of the primary ways we gauge a product's success and public interest in something. If something doesn't sell, we have to assume it's because the audience isn't there. If something flies out of our warehouse, well heck! Do more of that! So if you like something, please check it out in whatever way makes financial sense for you, let your friends know, post it on your blog, mention it on facebook, ask your FLGS owner to get you a copy, whatever. We might do a lot, but we're still a small company and every little bit helps!
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So long as we get some info on the agathions (especially a few new members of their -- race?) and the Empyreal Lords, particularly some worshiped outside of Avistan, I will be ecstatic over this book.
Prepare for ecstasy then, because every one of the "A" celestial races is getting a section, one new member, details on the Empyreal Lords related to each race, and bits on Empyreal Lords from all over (even one from the Crown of the World!).
I hope this book will have new types of Angels, Azatas, Agathions, and to a lesser extent Archons because they at least had some love in the Bestiary 3. I wonder if there are more then one type of Garuda or Peri?
Diversity makes some races special and individuality makes some races special. There's definitely going to be more members for those races who have variation, but this book isn't going to open the doors for any new races getting multiple breeds. Sometimes pegasus is cool enough being pegasus, not porkasus and pillgasus and palgasus.
Additionally, as the one here who does the most tracking of our monster offerings, I'm not such a bean counter that I'm like "Well, we've got 13 azatas and 11 agathions out there, guess we need 2 more agathions before we do any more azatas." We strive to provide options for all the races and alignments, but I prefer to let the needs of an individual book and author inspiration drive new additions to races that are already as well treated as our celestial races, not force strict parity for strict parity's sake. So expect a new angel, azata, agathion, archon, and maybe (maybe) a bit more.
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Still extremely curious about what Ragathiel is going to look like, considering his heritage...
I hope they clarify if Ragathiel is an Angel or an Archon.
You'll find out what Ragathiel looks like right on the cover. Ragathiel was one of my first and still favorite empyreal lords, so there's going to be plenty on him in here.
Also mighty curious about Korada, whatever s/he actually is. That Empyreal has long seemed to be a more natural fit as a patron for extremely good-leaning monks than the more self-oriented Irori, and has actually seems to be a closer Buddha analogue for those looking for one, at least from what little is known about him/her at this point.
The first time Empyreal Lords were ever mentioned was in my article on Magnimar in Pathfinder #2, where I threw out the names Soralyon, Ashava, and the Horseman of War. That was a little out of the blue, but in the setting's early days, drops like that were an easy way to put a tag on something, a way to say "This is a thing, we'll get back to it later." From the beginning, though, I wanted good demon lords. In Dragon, in books for other companies, and in our own games we always put all of this work into sub-deities that most characters could never or would never play with. That always seemed like a waste to me. So I got the name drop in there early and kept mentioning them until they got a fitting place in the Inner Sea World Guide.
Obviously things have seen some refinement since then--the Horseman of War, for example, went another direction. When I wrote up the Empyreal Lords for the Inner Sea World Guide, I didn't want them to just be eastern European in flavor. In the same way our fiendish lords draw upon mythology from across the world (another probably obvious interest of mine) I wanted our Empyreal Lords to do the same. The only issue with that is that many of the--this is forced, but bear with me--"good-aligned" figures in world myth are parts of active religions, and that's seriously off limits for me. So the Empyreal Lords have nods to various archetypes from world myth, if not individuals themselves. These characters are not meant to be representatives of any specific real world religion, but in the same way so many of our deities and monsters take cues from real world inspirations, the seed for many of these characters came from recognizable real world sources.
For example, Andoletta is very much a hard edged Christian nun. Arshea... she doesn't really have one, she's the Empyreal Lord that says sex and sexuality, regardless of form or gender, is a good thing. Korada is definitely inspired by Buddhist sources. Ragathiel is your total angry avenging Old Testament angel. Sinashakti has Hindu roots, as if Rama and Hanuman were one character and went exploring. Valani is inspired by the deities of Hawaii, who have the most fantastic emotional range.
Several others have slipped out beyond that, like Pulura--worshiped in the north as the lady of the aurora--and those mentioned in Magnimar--as that city has remained a bastion (and birthplace) for these demigods--but it's exciting to finally get so much that's been in the background (or just in my head) about these characters finally into the light.
Amber and I had a long, long conversation about this book at Paizocon before she got a long, long outline, but she's one of the family and she'll do great. Her star has been on the rise for a long time and I'm excited that this will be the first Paizo book that has her name--and her name alone--right on the cover.
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Also, I hope Melek Taus gets some love in this book.
Although many name dropped characters will be getting lots more detail, some will be revised, refined, redeveloped, or omitted. Just forewarning that there will be some of that.
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Obviously things have seen some refinement since then--the Horseman of War, for example, went another direction. When I wrote up the Empyreal Lords for the Inner Sea World Guide, I didn't want them to just be eastern European in flavor. In the same way our fiendish lords draw upon mythology from across the world (another probably obvious interest of mine) I wanted our Empyreal Lords to do the same. The only issue with that is that many of the--this is forced, but bear with me--"good-aligned" figures in world myth are parts of active religions, and that's seriously off limits for me. So the Empyreal Lords have nods to various archetypes from world myth, if not individuals themselves. These characters are not meant to be representatives of any specific real world religion, but in the same way so many of our deities and monsters take cues from real world inspirations, the seed for many of these characters came from recognizable real world sources.
For example, Andoletta is very much a hard edged Christian nun. Arshea... she doesn't really have one, she's the Empyreal Lord that says sex and sexuality, regardless of form or gender, is a good thing. Korada is definitely inspired by Buddhist sources. Ragathiel is your total angry avenging Old Testament angel. Sinashakti has Hindu roots, as if Rama and Hanuman were one character and went exploring. Valani is inspired by the deities of Hawaii, who have the most fantastic emotional range.
Several others have slipped out beyond that, like Pulura--worshiped in the north as the lady of the aurora--and those mentioned in Magnimar--as that city has remained a bastion (and birthplace) for these demigods--but it's exciting to finally get so much that's been in the background (or just in my head) about these characters finally into the light.
Amber and I had a long, long conversation about this book at Paizocon before she got a long, long outline, but she's one of the family and she'll do great. Her star has been on the rise for a long time and I'm excited that this will be the first Paizo book that has her name--and her name alone--right on the cover.
Anticipation levels are only increasing now. Count me as another appreciating pulling from all the world's myths, legends, and religions.
Now I'm most excited about Valani. :D
Demon Hunter's Handbook
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Demon Hunter's Handbook!
Announced at Gen Con as an August release. The name is still tentative. More details to follow.
(Let me finish outlining and assigning April stuff before we jump to August!)
So that one is all the way in august.
So does this mean that the Garuda and the Peri will get there Empyreal Lords?
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So does this mean that the Garuda and the Peri will get there Empyreal Lords?
The Garuda Empyreal, if there is one, needs to make a Roc look puny, and be able to serve as a mount for the entire Vudran pantheon at the same time thanks to the city-sized palatial 'howdah' constructed on its back.
'Cause that would rock.
So basically you want a mothra sized Garuda?
I think the Mayans put the end of the world on December 2012 just so we can't get this book. Damn you heart cutting bastards!
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Oh well, that's a shame. Once again Good gets the short end.
Pffft. At least they get an end. Neutrality don't get squat.
And actually, I'd say that on most levels, Good does NOT get the short end of the stick.
Solars are more powerful than pit fiends or balors.
Gold dragons are more powerful than red dragons.
Etc, etc, etc.
Arshea? Thumbs very up.
Demon Hunter's Handbook?! My inquisitor can't wait.
Creative Director
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Dehrukani? Where/what is that?It's a coastal Mwangi/Garundi(?) nation in southern Garund, off the Inner Sea Region map. The people there worship azatas, and the land is described as being an incredibly high-fantasy place*, generally peaceful, with crystaline structures built with azata aid. It was first mentioned along with Holomog(land of Mwangi amazons riding dinosaurs fighting lizardmans riding dinosaurs) in the Inner Sea Region Guide. There hasn't been any more revealed about it since though, IIRC.
*I think keeping with Erik Mona said about "the further south you go in Garund, the more fantastic it gets.
It's unlikely we'll do much with any part of Golarion that we haven't done much with. This book isn't the correct place to suddenly spring nation details on a part of the world we've only barely mentioned in print.
What's more likely is that when and if we DO do a book about southern Garund, we'll reference the empyreal lords we talk about in this book and use that to build the pantheon of deities worshiped in Dehrukani, and may at that point add a few more similar to how we added 3 empyreal lords in Magnimar, City of Monuments.
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Dehrukani? Where/what is that?It's a coastal Mwangi/Garundi(?) nation in southern Garund, off the Inner Sea Region map. The people there worship azatas, and the land is described as being an incredibly high-fantasy place*, generally peaceful, with crystaline structures built with azata aid. It was first mentioned along with Holomog(land of Mwangi amazons riding dinosaurs fighting lizardmans riding dinosaurs) in the Inner Sea Region Guide. There hasn't been any more revealed about it since though, IIRC.
*I think keeping with Erik Mona said about "the further south you go in Garund, the more fantastic it gets.
It's unlikely we'll do much with any part of Golarion that we haven't done much with. This book isn't the correct place to suddenly spring nation details on a part of the world we've only barely mentioned in print.
What's more likely is that when and if we DO do a book about southern Garund, we'll reference the empyreal lords we talk about in this book and use that to build the pantheon of deities worshiped in Dehrukani, and may at that point add a few more similar to how we added 3 empyreal lords in Magnimar, City of Monuments.
Ah, expectations calibrated. :) Still hoping we see some Empyreals keyed into Mwangi culture though, whatever they might be.(Anansi analogue maybe?)
So how many Empyreal Lords are we getting in this book?
My question is...will we finally get a tulani equivalent azata?
Them and ghaeles have always been my favorite of the heavenly hosts. I kinda miss the 2e days of them being playable PC's.
The Peacock Spirit, by the way... probably should NOT be a part of this book... it's a secret waiting for later, and it's definitely NOT a good-guy kind of secret...
Dammit! Everyone hates a tease...
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Creative Director
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Are Melek Taus and the Peacock Spirit related somehow?
I was somehow under the impression that the PS wasn't evil, but LN.
Peacock Spirit... whether it's a deity or a person or a force or a philosophy... is not revealed yet. Neither is it's alignment, but it's more likely gonna be evil than neutral, and it definitely isn't good.
Are Melek Taus and the Peacock Spirit related somehow?
I was somehow under the impression that the PS wasn't evil, but LN.
Well, IRL supposedly The Peacock Spirit is a title given to Melek Taus by the Yezidis, the "Devil Worshippers of Kurdistan", who were always uber-villains in the old pulp stories. (In reality they're more like the Amish than heart-ripping Aztecs on steroids; and they tend to be rather badly treated by their neighbors.)
But in Golarion, who knows?
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Peacock Spirit... whether it's a deity or a person or a force or a philosophy... is not revealed yet. Neither is it's alignment, but it's more likely gonna be evil than neutral, and it definitely isn't good.Are Melek Taus and the Peacock Spirit related somehow?
I was somehow under the impression that the PS wasn't evil, but LN.
Is that because
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Bit odd to have Melek Taus be evil, like having a good god called 'asmodeus' or a god of sunshine and flowers called 'hades'...
There's still a big chance s/he wont be evil. The actual name Melek Taus is associated more with the MIA Peacock Angel from The Great Beyond more than the Peacock Spirit of Thassilon. While they may be connected, they don't have to be the same entity. That one is referred to as male and the other female has me more convinced that this is the case.
But yeah, also hoping Melek Taus isn't turned into a villain for similar reasons. The Yazidi have faced enough persecution in real life over misunderstandings of what their beliefs actually are.
Someone mentioned an Empyreal Lord associated with the Crown of the World.
Suddenly I am reminded of the Lawful Good deity I had created for one of my homebrew races.
I beat you to it! >:3
Though I'm still probably going to buy this book.
Oh well, that's a shame. Once again Good gets the short end.Pffft. At least they get an end. Neutrality don't get squat.
And actually, I'd say that on most levels, Good does NOT get the short end of the stick.
Solars are more powerful than pit fiends or balors.
Gold dragons are more powerful than red dragons.
Etc, etc, etc.
Good-aligned PCs get the short end of the stick, the Good-aligned creatures do not.
And they technically do get the short end, since the Evil creatures outnumber them pretty darn heavily.|
Creative Director
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And again, to echo Wes's earlier comment... not EVERYTHING we mention gets kept. We've been toying with Empyreal lords for a while, and in the early days even suggested that the Horsemen of the Apocalypse were Empyreal lords.
So... until this book is actually out, just try to manage your expectations that the more obscure an Empyreal lord is, the more likely that character might not be a part of this book. We'll try to get as many as possible, though...
But the fact that we have a "Peacock Spirit" and a "Peacock Angel" is pretty confusing. In a case like that, where we'd have to choose to let one go... the Peacock Angel goes away, because the place of the Peacock Spirit as a mysterious religion or organization associated with not only Thassilon but with some of its most powerful runelords is a lot more ingrained in the world canon.
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But the fact that we have a "Peacock Spirit" and a "Peacock Angel" is pretty confusing. In a case like that, where we'd have to choose to let one go... the Peacock Angel goes away, because the place of the Peacock Spirit as a mysterious religion or organization associated with not only Thassilon but with some of its most powerful runelords is a lot more ingrained in the world canon.
Just to advocate for the Peacock Angel for a bit: I don't really find it confusing to have both, and I really hope you guys don't drop her from canon. Personally, the mysteries that arise from having both figures are the sort that make settings feel more alive more than being anything harmful to it. And the haunting imagery evoked by Melek Taus' empty palace in Great Beyond is pretty powerful. That she presents a rare (hopefully) positive representation in fantasy for an all too frequently misinterpreted real world cultural figure* was extra gravy on the side. :)
*Come to think of it, Kali gets hit hard with this sort of thing in most of her appearances in Western fantasy and pulp. I can count the more accurate portrayals of her that I've seen on one hand. Hoping her Golarion analogue if/when it shows up is closer to the actual figure as well.
All that aside I'm really eager to hear more about the Empyreals that have already been confirmed, as well as to see what new ones may be showing up and what they represent!
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Pros: Been waiting for this for a long, long time. Finally, the celestials get some face time! Just by way of thanks, I may finally get around to getting myself a subscription to the campaign setting, just so I don't miss it.
Cons: Seriously? The fiends get three books and the celestials get one? I'm still grateful, certainly, and I know nothing about sales expectations from one class of outsider to another, but I can't help but see this, on some level, as a missed opportunity to really flesh out the celestial realms and races, and make them as real, relevant, and exciting as the fiendish side of things.
Whatever may be, I'll be looking forward to this one.
I just hope elemental princes, genie royalty and fey lords get their own books. And maybe the masters of shadow.
I hope for law and chaos powers first.
I do not find having a Peacock Spirit and a Peacock Angel confusing at all and would love to see an a Peacock Angel and besides we know the angel is still alive.
I would love a book on the first world in general.
I would love some chaos and law love for these kinda books.
I wouldn't mind if the elemental lords and genie royalty were in the same book though.
Some chaos/law love would be much appreciated, especially on the chaos side. I feel like azatas and proteans really got shafted compared to archons and inevitables. The proteans are supposed to be one of the alignment-embodying outsider types and their top-tier guy is just a CR 17. Why no CR 20 protean? And why so few proteans? You would think in a plane of infinite chaos and change, there'd be more than four kinds of outsider. Plus I want to know how they think and what their goals are. What is their social system like? In a place where organization is the bane of existence, how do they function when it's time to march against the inevitables? For demons they can at least boss each other around with death threats, but proteans aren't like that, it seems. Cause otherwise they'e just another evil outsider by another name.