With a knowledgeable person guiding the first game session, I'm sure a 10yo can manage it. After all, at the heart of it, the system is just "roll a d20, add your modifiers, tell the GM the total, and ask if that's enough to succeed."
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With a knowledgeable person guiding the first game session, I'm sure a 10yo can manage it. After all, at the heart of it, the system is just "roll a d20, add your modifiers, tell the GM the total, and ask if that's enough to succeed."
When I was a kid, in the middle of 5th grade, my family moved (from LA to Orange County in Cali) and I changed schools. I was 10. At my new school, two of my new friends invited me over one day to play this cool game called D&D that was in a small white box. AD&D was just about to come out, the Monster Manual was not even out yet. If we could figure out those incomprehensible rules on our own as 10 year olds then a set of equally smart 10 year olds today can figure out the much more clear rules from Paizo.
Creative Director
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Will this really be good for a 10/11 year old ? It seems a little complicated.
I think it's perfect for a child of that age. My 5th grade teacher used the blue box back in the day to pretty much teach my entire class how to play D&D. He used it as a trick to get us to write—he split the class up into several groups and ran us through encounters at lunchtime one after the other... but wouldn't run the next encounter for any one group until they wrote up the previous one as a short story.
Anyway... a whole classroom of 10-11 year olds learned to play the game using a much less graphically intensive product, so I think this one will do quite well.
As someone with experience from teaching 10/11 year olds I'm just going to comment that a lot of adults need to stop underestimating how incredibly good at taking in information and applying it to good use a lot of kids are.
(And I do hope this doesn't come of us snarky, or an attack on anyone, since it is meant as a "kids are great - hooray!" comment.)
As someone with experience from teaching 10/11 year olds I'm just going to comment that a lot of adults need to stop underestimating how incredibly good at taking in information and applying it to good use a lot of kids are.
I'm just being cautiously optimistic. :)
Will this really be good for a 10/11 year old ? It seems a little complicated.I think it's perfect for a child of that age. My 5th grade teacher used the blue box back in the day to pretty much teach my entire class how to play D&D. He used it as a trick to get us to write—he split the class up into several groups and ran us through encounters at lunchtime one after the other... but wouldn't run the next encounter for any one group until they wrote up the previous one as a short story.
Anyway... a whole classroom of 10-11 year olds learned to play the game using a much less graphically intensive product, so I think this one will do quite well.
I like your school better than my school.
Will this really be good for a 10/11 year old ? It seems a little complicated.
I will be running this for my soon to be 8 year old. Of course I've already introduced him to Pathfinder Core with the rules toned down a bit and he does well with that. I expect the beginner box to be a piece of cake for him.
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Will this really be good for a 10/11 year old ? It seems a little complicated.I think it's perfect for a child of that age. My 5th grade teacher used the blue box back in the day to pretty much teach my entire class how to play D&D. He used it as a trick to get us to write—he split the class up into several groups and ran us through encounters at lunchtime one after the other... but wouldn't run the next encounter for any one group until they wrote up the previous one as a short story.
Anyway... a whole classroom of 10-11 year olds learned to play the game using a much less graphically intensive product, so I think this one will do quite well.
That sounds like a great teacher. I'm curious -- was this before the "D&D = The Devil" hysteria or after?
I'm personally EXTREMELY excited about seeing Pathfinder get more exposure via the Beginner Box. Perhaps there can be a plan to donate it to local libraries if it's not cost-prohibitive? Also, maybe bookstores and toy stores can have it on display, or perhaps even have it available for free play at a table. Will you guys ship out cardboard stands to various chains perhaps?
The problem today isn't so much that kids aren't smart enough to get it, but more along the lines that kids aren't as interested in learning a ttrpg. As a 10yo back in the day, it was awesome. Today, 10yo's say, "okay, that's cool. I'm gonna go play WoW now." (not to bash WoW, I play it too.) Without flashy graphics and a big screen, it's a little harder to find kids that still like to use their imaginations. I did, however just get my 10, 6, and 5 year old cousins to play Gamma World, and they loved it. And I think this might just be the next step we take together in gaming.
I just picked up the old Star Frontiers games. They are easier to run than I thought. I plan on using them to bring people into role playing games. They are scifi and quick. Character sheets are about a page long with everything you need. Most of the rules are for the game master. Rereading it after 20+ years, it looks like 75% of the book is set aside for GMs.
Once I've got them hooked on role playing, then it's time to bring out other games based on the genre they like.
Will this really be good for a 10/11 year old ? It seems a little complicated.
The shocking truth is that the beginners box is not that much needed for novice players as it is for novice GMs.
I teached my son the Dungeon! board game at the age of 4, proceeded to Hero Quest when he was 6 and to Pathfinder when he was 8.
No problem at all (he is now playing "Race for the Galaxy" fairly well and regularily beats adults in it).
Sooo, if you are able to GM Pathfinder fairly well I guess you could teach it to a 10 year old. The beginners box will only make it a bit easier.
With a knowledgeable person guiding the first game session, I'm sure a 10yo can manage it. After all, at the heart of it, the system is just "roll a d20, add your modifiers, tell the GM the total, and ask if that's enough to succeed."
The Dungeons and Dragons Basic edition purple box with the Erol otus green dragon said for ages 10 and up. That was a lot more difficult to play than the Beginners box I would wager.
Maybe you as a designer and hard core fan you are too much into the rule system to be able to correctly evaluate the complexity of pathfinder (even the version in the new box) to a newbie.
They did do some playtesting with RPG newbies, giving the Beginner's Box to a group of teenagers with no moderator and watching them figure out how to play through one-way glass. Granted, that's not 10 to 11 year olds, but it is without a veteran explaining anything to them, if I'm remembering the story correctly.
Will this really be good for a 10/11 year old ? It seems a little complicated.I think it's perfect for a child of that age. My 5th grade teacher used the blue box back in the day to pretty much teach my entire class how to play D&D. He used it as a trick to get us to write—he split the class up into several groups and ran us through encounters at lunchtime one after the other... but wouldn't run the next encounter for any one group until they wrote up the previous one as a short story.
Anyway... a whole classroom of 10-11 year olds learned to play the game using a much less graphically intensive product, so I think this one will do quite well.
But this set is much more complicated than the BCMI set. In those days I could write up a character on a beer mat. The rules of the red box has been so simple that I could explain them to a newbie in 3 minutes.
Now even with the simplified pathfinder in this box I need a full sized sheet of paper and I have to explain all these bonus modifiers, spells, skills etc. This says all. Maybe you as a designer and hard core fan you are too much into the rule system to be able to correctly evaluate the complexity of pathfinder (even the version in the new box) to a newbie.
Thats not to say that I dont appreciate your effort to produce this great set. I absolutely like it. IMO its a beginning that rpg companies finally recognize the value of simpler rules sets for the future of the industry and their own future. This makes me optimistic.
The Original Basic set with the Erol Otus cover was written on a higher reading level than most 10 year olds are capable of handling. The rules were definitely easier, but it was not Rules LIGHT. I think even though the Beginner Box is starting with more complex rules, I think it is actually easier to learn than D&D basic set.
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But this set is much more complicated than the BCMI set. In those days I could write up a character on a beer mat. The rules of the red box has been so simple that I could explain them to a newbie in 3 minutes.Now even with the simplified pathfinder in this box I need a full sized sheet of paper and I have to explain all these bonus modifiers, spells, skills etc. This says all. Maybe you as a designer and hard core fan you are too much into the rule system to be able to correctly evaluate the complexity of pathfinder (even the version in the new box) to a newbie.
Thats not to say that I dont appreciate your effort to produce this great set. I absolutely like it. IMO its a beginning that rpg companies finally recognize the value of simpler rules sets for the future of the industry and their own future. This makes me optimistic.
I'm not worried at all. I went through the original Red Box when I was around 10. Granted, I was kind of an advanced reader, but if a kid is really interested and excited in something they won't really stress about this or that rule. They'll jump in and make mistakes.
I have my own copy of the Beginner Box now. It has a solo adventure that is about as easy to go through as the original Red Box's solo adventure. Then the bulk of the Hero's Handbook deals with character creation step by step. One thing that's very useful are the letters in bright green circles on the character sheet -- every single instruction in the Hero's Handbook tells you which letter to go to fill in information.
There's a lot of math, especially when you get to Skills. None of it goes beyond basic plus/minus arithmetic, however.
And come on, let's face it -- unless you're math-averse, part of the FUN of the game is dealing with all that math and seeing how powerful your character is going to become at the end of the process. :)
Also, let's not forget that Pathfinder might have the appearance of being more complicated, when actually it's because it's more user friendly. The original BECMI box has very simple stat blocks: but that's because you had to page-flip to find saving throws and To Hit charts in the middle of battle. With Pathfinder, having AC and saving throw bonuses all right there makes things much easier. Where Pathfinder gets more complicated is when options and powers are added on top of the basic foundation, which comes at higher levels.
The flip side of the statblock is the character creation process (because your character sheet is a giant statblock after all). Granted, "rolling up" a character is much longer in Pathfinder than in BECMI, but the purpose of this is to create a PC statblock that is robust and can be easily used in play.
Another thing about the Beginner Box is that every spell description is now reduced to four lines, which actually is simpler than the original Red Box.
My just turned 12 year-old needed a fair amount of help with it. She insisted though on making her own character first and agonizing if each decision was right or not (she rolled up stats but refused to assign them until she went through skills & feats).
My recommendation: Really encourage them to look over the fighter pre-gen to get a feel for things and have them do the pick your path adventure in the hero book. After that, they'd probably handle the complexities of building a character a lot easier (or even do the intro adventure with pregens).
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...the question was if children can handle it.
It's not aimed at children. It's aimed at teens and up; that's why the age recommendation on the box says "13+".
I'm sure that many folks out there have younger kids that won't have any problem with the complexity, but in general, purchasers should realize that if they give it to a younger person, they might have some additional explaining to do.
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That sounds like a great teacher. I'm curious -- was this before the "D&D = The Devil" hysteria or after?Will this really be good for a 10/11 year old ? It seems a little complicated.I think it's perfect for a child of that age. My 5th grade teacher used the blue box back in the day to pretty much teach my entire class how to play D&D. He used it as a trick to get us to write—he split the class up into several groups and ran us through encounters at lunchtime one after the other... but wouldn't run the next encounter for any one group until they wrote up the previous one as a short story.
Anyway... a whole classroom of 10-11 year olds learned to play the game using a much less graphically intensive product, so I think this one will do quite well.
It was in the early 80s, so pretty much right in the middle of the hysteria.
The pick a path adventure is a very smart and approachable way in for new players.
Let me immediately concede that I'm arguing with a figure of considerable authority in the field, so am probably wrong. Nonetheless,...
The choose-your-own-adventure choice is one of only two quibbles I have with this product. I'm not a fan of this as a way to teach RPGs (I had the same view of the DnD red box's use of the concept) largely because it is considerably removed from the actual experience of a tabletop RPG.
It's easy enough to work through such a story, but it conveys an impression of limited choices and also de-emphasises the social element of play. In my view, an introductory product should be simpler but still moving in the same direction as the ultimate version being taught. I thought the intro 'mini-dungeon' adventure was excellent as a way of gradually talking the GM through how to run a game. I would have preferred more material on how to run (for example) roleplaying encounters, rather than a focus on how to walk yourself through an adventure - an experience you will then not use once you move onto the real thing. It seems to me to be teaching people what an adventure game is - I would have take that as written in this world of computer games and focus on the features unique to face-to-face roleplaying.
As I said though, I can hardly argue with a course of action chosen by both Paizo and WoTC and now endorsed by Wolfgang Baur. Nonetheless, it was one of very few gripes I had with this product. (Not that I've paged through the actual printed version yet..)
The point of the pick-a-path adventure is, if you are alone when you open the Beginner Box, to let you experience a simple dungeon adventure and learn the basics of making attack rolls, saving throws, and skill checks. Armed with that knowledge, it's really easy for you to be "the knowledgeable player" who can help out your friends when you're showing them the rest of the game.
If you have friends with you when you open the box, you should grab a pregenerated character and play through Black Fang's Dungeon.
Is the pick-a-path adventure as fun as an actual roleplaying experience? No, in the same way that watching the Fellowship of the Ring movie by yourself isn't as fun as watching it with friends and raving about it together as a group, but seeing it alone is still opening your mind's doorway to epic fantasy adventure that you want to share with your friends.
Is the pick-a-path adventure as fun as an actual roleplaying experience? No, in the same way that watching the Fellowship of the Ring movie by yourself isn't as fun as watching it with friends and raving about it together as a group, but seeing it alone is still opening your mind's doorway to epic fantasy adventure that you want to share with your friends.
I'm of this mindset, and I like the Choose Your Own Adventure format. When I was ten years old with the Mentzer Red Box, I couldn't find anyone to play with me. :( (It actually took about 23 years (2010) until I played my first group game.) Anyway, the solo adventure gave me the thrill of rolling dice and imagining what it would be like if I had more people with me.
One thing I thought was needed in the Beginner Box was a "WELCOME!" section that shows why someone should get into tabletop gaming, at a time in which many young people have so many other things like video/computer games to choose from. Doesn't have to be long -- it could have been a short paragraph saying something like: "WELCOME to the world of PATHFINDER!" "Unlike in a computer game, YOU get to make the story along with your friends!!"
As it is now, the book goes straight to instructions without saying first that here is something special that you hold in your hands, that you will remember this moment, that this will grow into a lifelong passion, that this is the game that was so great that it started it all and was the original roleplaying game, etc., etc. The Beginner Box is a huge win as it is now, but I think something like this too would've been great.
But this set is much more complicated than the BCMI set. In those days I could write up a character on a beer mat. The rules of the red box has been so simple that I could explain them to a newbie in 3 minutes.
Now even with the simplified pathfinder in this box I need a full sized sheet of paper and I have to explain all these bonus modifiers, spells, skills etc. This says all. Maybe you as a designer and hard core fan you are too much into the rule system to be able to correctly evaluate the complexity of pathfinder (even the version in the new box) to a newbie.
Really? Because I have my Red Cover Basic Rulebook from (1980) open in front of me right now. The Moldvay one. And to me because of text density there's ALOT to absorb here.
Clerics have that additional layer of complexity with their wacky turning table. Thieves have their percentile Thieves Abilities table.
There's the saving throw table: a different series of numbers dependent on the Character Class and the Type of Attack.
A combat matrix for Character Attacks and a separate one for Monster Attacks?
Now Pathfinder is a little more complex with Feats and an actual Skill system, but to eliminate those and the game would cease to be Pathfinder and be closer to Castles and Crusades.
My point is Basic is pretty much columns and columns of text with few pictures here and there. It's pretty densely packed and not exactly reader friendly and it was marketed towards 10 year olds? I think that the the Pathfinder Beginners Box is just fine for what it is.
The point of the pick-a-path adventure is, if you are alone when you open the Beginner Box, to let you experience a simple dungeon adventure and learn the basics of making attack rolls, saving throws, and skill checks. Armed with that knowledge, it's really easy for you to be "the knowledgeable player" who can help out your friends when you're showing them the rest of the game.
If you have friends with you when you open the box, you should grab a pregenerated character and play through Black Fang's Dungeon.
Is the pick-a-path adventure as fun as an actual roleplaying experience? No, in the same way that watching the Fellowship of the Ring movie by yourself isn't as fun as watching it with friends and raving about it together as a group, but seeing it alone is still opening your mind's doorway to epic fantasy adventure that you want to share with your friends.
Not only do I hope you're right, but I suspect you are (given the consensus of professionals is contrary to my view, the chance of me being "right" is pretty slim). I didn't really present that as an argument, more my impression - with a view to informing any potential future products.
My opinions are no doubt colored by my own experience and prejudices. I imagine the generic BB opener being someone whose played several computer games, maybe played PF at a friend's place and has been given a box for Christmas (or saved up for it). As such, I probably undervalue the introduction to mechanics you outline here and am overstating the importance of distinguishing tabletop games from computer games.
It's nonetheless my favorite RPG line product - even moreso than the GM guide (my previous favorite) or the Core Rules. The thought and care you put into it is obvious on every page.
The point of the pick-a-path adventure is, if you are alone when you open the Beginner Box, to let you experience a simple dungeon adventure and learn the basics of making attack rolls, saving throws, and skill checks. Armed with that knowledge, it's really easy for you to be "the knowledgeable player" who can help out your friends when you're showing them the rest of the game.
If you have friends with you when you open the box, you should grab a pregenerated character and play through Black Fang's Dungeon.
Is the pick-a-path adventure as fun as an actual roleplaying experience? No, in the same way that watching the Fellowship of the Ring movie by yourself isn't as fun as watching it with friends and raving about it together as a group, but seeing it alone is still opening your mind's doorway to epic fantasy adventure that you want to share with your friends.
I remember when this was done for Alternity. The adventure was called The Omega Variant and was only 10 pages. It wasn't a complete adventure. It was enough to help you get a grasp of the basics of the mechanics. I managed to find it again and I plan on running an Alternity campaign soon. I gave a copy to all my players so they can come with some basic knowledge.
I think this is a great way to get started. Giving someone an infinite number of options with no understanding of how to use those options tends to create frustration.
The handbooks seem very well put together. Lots of imagery to assist the learning process. I was amused to see the layout style, with its colored bar headings, reminded me of the 4E PHB.
Yeah, me too. I liked the PF design better though (kudos to Sarah, I presume?).
The only style issues I had were the overuse of exclamation marks. By the time the cleric gets to fourth level it's probably not that exciting to get an extra spell.
The more I look at this, the more I like it. I hate PDFs but I'm still really enjoying paging through it. Really exceptional work, Paizo people.
The handbooks seem very well put together. Lots of imagery to assist the learning process. I was amused to see the layout style, with its colored bar headings, reminded me of the 4E PHB.
I see I wasn't the only one...
Once again Paizo impresses with high quality box set. This box set is the hook up! I am impressed with the very nice books done inside with cool colorful artwork throughout. The books describe the game in the most basic and well structured format to get started. It only takes a short time to start playing with this fantastic box set. The box comes with a generous selection of cardboard figures to use with the marker map. Some dice of course and a practice dungeon to learn to play. This is perfect for people that are new to Pathfinder. Money well spent at my local game shop. I highly recommend this, even to people that own the Core Rulebook. Fantastic work Paizo and Pathfinder.
Any plans to sell these things in retail stores such as Target, Walmart, and toy stores to reach a wider audience?
Now that i've seen the "pawns", can we get a "hardcopy product" version of the paper mini pdf's like this? I know we've got the plastic's and metals from reaper, but these are great too!
As for the rest of it, I like the condensed stat block, and a few other things. A very good product.
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I just picked up the PDF and I hope that they 'tile' oversized items like the pregenerated characters in the future. I am finding them difficult to print.'
I did a little experimenting with the fighter pregen file in Acrobat and found that printing it to "tile all pages" at 95% of the original size will put it on 4 sheets of letter sized paper. You can then tape it together to make it a simulation of the tabloid sized file.
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Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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Any plans to sell these things in retail stores such as Target, Walmart, and toy stores to reach a wider audience?
Our mass market penetration at this point is limited to pretty much all of the major chain bookstores. We don't have an easy "in" with mega-retailers like Target and Wal-Mart.
Those companies generally demand a price point that wouldn't allow us to put as many good components in the box, and they are very likely to order tens of thousands of copies and then return them a couple weeks later.
Even the D&D Red Box was only in my local target for 2 weeks, and I'm frankly not convinced that kind of "mass market" distribution is worth it. Potentially, it could be very dangerous to our business.
So no. The game will not be in Target or Wal-Mart.
Any plans to sell these things in retail stores such as Target, Walmart, and toy stores to reach a wider audience?Our mass market penetration at this point is limited to pretty much all of the major chain bookstores. We don't have an easy "in" with mega-retailers like Target and Wal-Mart.
Those companies generally demand a price point that wouldn't allow us to put as many good components in the box, and they are very likely to order tens of thousands of copies and then return them a couple weeks later.
Even the D&D Red Box was only in my local target for 2 weeks, and I'm frankly not convinced that kind of "mass market" distribution is worth it. Potentially, it could be very dangerous to our business.
So no. The game will not be in Target or Wal-Mart.
This makes me sad, but I trust that you guys know the business realities of something like this.
I have just received my subscription copy. To all interested: I have not been charged any customs here in Germany, so anyone interested to order the box directly from Paizo shipping to Germany, you will only paying the box and shipping.
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I've been slowly going thru my BB and noticed a typo on the Fighter Pregen.
His Melee attack is listed as +1 BAB +3 str for a +4 melee.
Then it lists Weapon Focus: Longsword as his feat.
When you get to the Longsword stat block, the Attack bonus only shows a +4 instead of a +5!
If you download the BB add ons there is eratta for both books.
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So there is something I did notice with the Beginner Box...
It is Much easier and quicker for a Bunch of new players that never played to pick this up and to teach themselves how to play then it is to add an experienced players using the Beginner Box to teach them how to play.
In my experience, the experienced player finds it hard to unlearn what he knows from the Core book and only confuses the new players with rules that are not in the book that can be more complicated and that can slow things down.
Also it took much longer for a veteran player to make a PC then a new player. Veteran player would think out their builds while building the PC taken almost twice as long to build a PC while a new player would be able to make a PC in minutes!
Can anyone tell me what weight paper the extra Character sheets in the Beginner Box are printed on so I can match their quality if I print my own?
Looks like they might be around 45# or so. But I wanted to be sure.
Thanks.
I think 45# should be right Pygon. Little thicker than standard copy paper, but not quite 90#.
The PDFs of the Game Master's Guide and Hero's Handbook have been updated to include hyperlinks. Enjoy!
I just purchased my beginner's box only to find out that the Valeros and Merisiel character sheets were missing from the box. Has this happened with any other purchasers of this product?Also, I guess I a going to have to return it and look through another one to remedy this situation. I know the PDF's exist, but not the same thing as what should have been included in the box to begin with. ... Anyway, I would appreciate any feedback on this concern.