Pathfinder Roleplaying Game: Advanced Player's Guide (OGL)

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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game: Advanced Player's Guide (OGL)
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Take your Game to the Next Level!

Explore new and uncharted depths of roleplaying with the Pathfinder RPG Advanced Player's Guide! Empower your existing characters with expanded rules for all 11 Pathfinder Roleplaying Game core classes and seven core races, or build a new one from the ground up with one of six brand-new, 20-level base classes. Whether you're designing your own monstrous helpers as an enigmatic summoner, brewing up trouble with a grimy urban alchemist, or simply teaching an old rogue a new trick, this book has everything you need to make your heroes more heroic.

The Pathfinder RPG Advanced Player's Guide is a must-have companion volume to the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook. This imaginative tabletop game builds upon more than 10 years of system development and an Open Playtest featuring more than 50,000 gamers to create a cutting-edge RPG experience that brings the all-time best-selling set of fantasy rules into the new millennium.

The 336-page Pathfinder RPG Advanced Player's Guide includes:

  • Six new base classes: the monster-hunting inquisitor, the explosive alchemist, the noble cavalier, the prophecy-haunted oracle, the monster-crafting summoner, and the hex-weaving witch
  • More than a hundred innovative new feats and combat abilities for characters of all classes, including Steal, Point-Blank Master, and Bouncing Spell
  • Variant class abilities, rules subsystems, and thematic archetypes for all 11 core classes, such as the antipaladin, the hungry ghost monk, and the urban ranger
  • Hundreds of new spells and magic items, from phantasmal revenge to the Storm King's Cloud Castle
  • A wealth of fantastic equipment, such as fireblast rods and fortune-tellers' cards
  • New prestige classes like the Master Chymist and the Battle Herald
  • ... and much, much more!

ISBN-13: 978-1-60125-246-3

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Last Updated - 12/01/2010

Note: This product is part of the Pathfinder Rulebook Subscription.

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good

5/5

good addition to the collection offers good spells and feats, came in on time and I bought the non-mint and I haven't noticed any damage to it.


Players: Buy this after the Core Rulebook

5/5

If you own a Core Rulebook and a Bestiary, what Pathfinder book should you buy next? A campaign setting book or an adventure module would be good answers, but if you're looking for more character options, the best answer would be the Advanced Player's Guide. This was Paizo's first big player-oriented hardcover to be released after the Core Rulebook, and it's safe to say they knocked it out of the park. This book has stood the test of time and still contains fantastic options for the game even though it was released several years ago. If you're playing PFS on a budget, for example, and you have to be choosy with what books or PDFs you buy, start with the Advanced Player's Guide. You'll find enough options in there to keep you busy for years.

What follows is a chapter-by-chapter review. Do keep in mind that this book pre-dates the publication of classes like the magus, vigilante, kineticist, etc., so you won't find options directly designed for them. In addition, because it's part of the RPG line, it does not contain Golarion-specific flavour (though everything in here is compatible with the setting). As a whole, I would classify the art as in the lower-middle spectrum of what Paizo can do, with a lot of reused mediocre stuff from earlier books. The layout as a whole, however, is quite nice.

Chapter 1 (Races): After an Introduction that's really just an expanded table of contents, Chapter 1 expands the options available for Core races (those found in the Core Rulebook). For each race, a sentence or two describes how each of the Core classes and the so-called Base classes (those found later in this book) are represented within the culture. I found this section was fairly generic and tried too hard to make it sound like each class was common in each race, so there wasn't anything that seemed special. Next up are alternative racial traits for the Core races. These are important in that they allow a player to swap out one of the special features of a race (like an elf's automatic familiarity with elven weapons, or a gnome's resistance to illusion) for a different special feature. In other words, it's a good way to customize your PC just a little more and ensure that not all dwarfs are skilled at stonework, for example. Last, this chapter presents new favoured class options for each of the Core races: instead of the normal rule that a new level in a favoured class provides 1 hit point or 1 skill point, these new options allow a particular race to get something different. For example, a gnome with the favoured class of bard could get an extra round of bardic performance each day, or a half-orc with the favoured class of fighter could get an additional +2 to stabilization rolls when dying. Note that each race only has new favoured class options for handful of classes (not all of them). Unlike the alternate racial traits, I wasn't particularly impressed with the flavour or thought given to the new favoured class options: many of them didn't seem to have any particular tie to the race. Half-orcs, for example, can increase their bomb damage if their favoured class is alchemist, while human paladins can start to get energy resistance--there's nothing in the write-up of these races that make these bonuses seem natural or logical. From an optimization perspective, these new favoured class options are quite useful--I just wish they were better from a storytelling perspective.

Chapter 2 (Classes): One of the most important things that the Advanced Player's Guide brings to Pathfinder is the introduction of six new "Base" classes: the Alchemist, Cavalier, Inquisitor, Oracle, Summoner, and Witch. I don't have a lot of space to review each one, so I'll try to be concise.

The Alchemist fills a real niche in the game, is quite versatile, and would be really fun to play. They get special abilities to rapidly make alchemical items (of course), but also can manufacture bombs, cast magic spells (in the form of drinkable "elixirs"), and temporarily "hulk out" by drinking a "mutagen." As a GM, my only concern is the fact that the bombs resolve against Touch AC, so in games I've run the alchemist PC hardly ever misses and does substantial amounts of damage as an area effect. I also think that perhaps the mutagen feature should have been reserved for a specific "Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde" archetype, as I don't thik it fits well as part of the basic assumption of alchemists.

The Cavalier could probably have been better represented as a Fighter archetype. Cavaliers are mounted knights who swear an oath to follow the precepts of a particular order. Different orders provide different bonuses, Cavalier's mounts are hardier than normal, and the class provides PCs and their allies with some limited use of teamwork feats (discussed below). As written, the class is fairly bland, and I don't think it fills a hole in what could be covered well by other classes. You also see Cavaliers relatively rarely in gameplay because, frankly, they're just inferior to other builds (and I should know, because I've played one for a couple of years now!).

The Inquisitor is one of those classes I'm a bit torn about. The idea is that they're specialists in rooting out corruption and heresy within their faith, which is thematically really cool: but I don't see how that fits naturally with the activities of the vast majority of adventuring parties in the game. The class is conceptually unique and has a lot of cool and useful abilities, some of which seem to fit from a flavour perspective (like Bane) but others that just seem kind of random (like Monster Lore and Cunning Initiative).

The Oracle is another interesting class that I'm unsure about conceptually. Mechanically, they're spontaneous divine spellcasters who don't worship deities per se but instead strive to unravel a particular "mystery." As they advance in level, they get "revelations" which are special powers. Some of the revelations are really cool, and the mysteries are very flavourful. I like the class better after reading it carefully, though I'm still not sure about the name of the class (since divination isn't the focus) nor about the vague relationship they have to deities. They are a divine spellcasting class that is much simpler to play than clerics (though less effective), and thus potentially a good choice for new players.

The Summoner as presented in this book is infamous as the most overpowered class in all of Pathfinder, to the point where most GMs and PFS disallow it. "Unchained" Summoners (as they're usually called in contradistinction to a different type from another book) are, of course, really good at summoning lots of monsters, which is annoying for everyone at the table because it dramatically slows down gameplay. But more problematically, each Summoner gets an "eidolon" which is a bit like a completely customizable and incredibly powerful monstrous animal companion. If you have an Unchained Summoner, you may as well be playing a solo campaign because you probably don't need anyone else in the party to win most encounters. I'm not sure how the Unchained Summoner ever made it through playtesting, but it stands as an example that even great companies like Paizo can make major mistakes.

The Witch is a full (up to 9th level spells) spellcasting class that receives special powers called hexes. Some of the hexes are really flavourful and cool, and the concept of the class as a whole is one I really like. There are two things about the class I'm not a fan of: first, familiars are a major part of the class and as both a player and a GM I find familiars really annoying to deal with (because they rarely contribute positively to a play experience); second, each witch receives bonus spells depending on what "patron" they choose, but the patrons are just abstract concepts (like "Agility" or "Water") and have no substance or flavour to them, and no real potential for story development. I think it was a bland and almost forgettable way of implementing a really cool idea (mysterious forces granting a character power in exchange for . . .?). I should also note that one of the witch's hexes, Slumber, has proven overpowered and problematic at a lot of tables.

So as a whole, I think the Alchemist is a real success, while Witches, Oracles, and Inquisitors are solid additions to the game. The Cavalier is mostly forgotten, while the Summoner is a good example of what not to do in terms of game design.

The Classes chapter then continues by offering each of the Core classes something special, often in the form of "archetypes." If you don't already know, archetypes are packages of abilities that swap out some of the features of a class in exchange for other features, and they've become an important part of most builds for experienced players. Here's a summary of what each Core class gets.

1) Barbarians receive a lot of cool new options for rage powers (though, oddly, a lot of them relate to consuming alcohol) and several archetypes that don't change a lot of class features but that are quite good;

2) Bards get some fantastic and (sometimes quite dramatic) archetypes, at least as written--but admittedly, I don't hear about them being played very often;

3) Clerics receive the introduction of "subdomains", which are, as the name indicates, "branch" domains. A cleric with the Sun domain, for example, could now choose the replacement special power and domain spells of the Light subdomain. It's a way to allow the further customization of clerics since they don't have a lot of class features to trade out for archetypes;

4) Druids get archetypes that are all terrain-based and quite formulaic, along with a handful of "animal shaman" archetypes that have the same essential ability to gain an aspect of a particular animal's powers.

5) Fighters get a lot of archetypes, most of which are poor in terms of flavour ("Archer" or "Two-Handed Fighter") but some that are quite nutritious, as it were, to aiding particular combat styles;

6) Monks get a lot of archetypes, most of which are pretty bland but some, like the Zen Archer, the Monk of the Four Winds' Slow Time ability, and the Monk of the Healing Hand's capstone power are pretty cool;

7) Paladins get archetypes that are okay, but there's some clunky features for the Divine Defender and Sacred Servant. There's also the introduction of the Antipaladin (formally an "Alternate" Class) which I know a lot of people demanded but I'm just not a fan of the concept because I think it devalues the essential goodness of the Paladin idea;

8) Rangers get new archetypes and some new combat styles. I really like the Guide archetype, as the Terrain Bond feature seems much truer to the niche that rangers should fill as wilderness experts. The Infiltrator and Skirmisher archetypes also get some cool stuff;

9) Rogues receive 30 new rogue talents and 12 new advanced rogue talents to choose from, though most are of the "1/day, roll two d20s and take the better" on a specific skill check type. I like the Fast Getaway talent (allowing a rogue to sneak attack and then withdraw), and imagine it would keep a lot of rogues alive. The class also receives several archetypes, but most are pretty thin and forgettable (though the Cutpurse could be used to devastating effect depending on GM discretion);

10) Sorcerers receive 10 new bloodlines, and although I'm not an expert on the class, they look useful and meaningful;

11) Wizards get new elemental schools to specialize in, and some of the special powers look like a lot of fun (like the Air school's Cyclone power or the Water school's Wave power). There's also the introduction of "Focused Arcane Schools" which you can think of as "super specialization" in a particular aspect of a School in order to gain replacement powers.

Whew! A lot of stuff in that chapter. Moving on.

Chapter 3 (Feats) contains a *lot* of new feats. The summary table which gives a one-line description of each one fills four pages. Many of the new feats are standalone things, but others can be grouped by type: several give an additional use of class features ("Extra Rage Power", "Extra Rogue Talent", etc.), make it easier to use the new combat maneuvers introduced at the end of the book, create new metamagic options for spellcasting (with "Dazing Spell" responsible for a lot frustration to GMs), etc. A new type of feat, Teamwork Feats, are introduced for the first time in this chapter. The idea with Teamwork Feats is that if two PCs (or allied NPCs) have the same feat, they both get bonuses in particular situations: for example, if two PCs have the "Allied Spellcaster" teamwork feat, they each get a +2 bonus on caster level checks to overcome spell resistance. I do like the concept, but the proven problem is that it's often hard to get other players at the table to have their PCs take the same one that you're taking, and the bonuses provided by the feats aren't so amazing that groups are inclined to carefully coordinate.

Chapter 4 (Equipment) contains about 25 new weapons (including some of those fun, weird polearms D&D veterans will recognize), a handful of new types of armor, a lot of new pieces of adventuring gear, and several new alchemical items. There's not a lot here that's earth-shattering, though some items, such as Weapon Blanch, have become de rigeur for every smart adventurer. It would have been nice if more of the equipment was illustrated, and that better choices were made on what was essential to illustrate: I know what an hourglass looks like, for example, and don't need a picture, but seeing what a "light detector" looks like would have been interesting.

Chapter 5 (Spells) has 57 pages of options for spellcasters of every stripe. Reading through, I noticed a surprising number of cool Paladin spells, a lot of Bard "finale" spells (that are cast and instantly end bardic performance), and a lot of ninth level spells. Some of the spells I really liked include Blaze of Glory, Fire Snake, and Hero's Defiance, and the picture of Cacophonous Call on p. 209 is hilarious. Every spellcaster is bound to find something useful, but there are some problematic ones introduced in this chapter, like the Create Pit line, that GMs need to be aware of.

Chapter 6 (Prestige Classes) introduces eight new options that PCs could, but probably won't, strive for. Pathfinder long had a reputation for not making much of the prestige class concept, and that's only recently begun to change. Really fast verdicts: 1) Battle Herald: Love the concept, but everything is tied off an "Inspiring Command" bonus which just progresses too slowly, making the entire prestige class weak; 2) Holy Vindicator: no design room for the concept, and the abilities don't help; 3) Horizon Walker: the bonuses in some terrains are fantastic and in others completely "meh"; 4) Master Chymist: Classic Jekyll & Hyde alchemist; 5) Master Spy: I liked this more than I thought I would, and could see it used for a lot of NPCs or maybe a PC (in just the right campaign). Gets clever and useful foils to most means of detection, but abilities come on line much later than they should for most adventures; 6) Rage prophet: Not impressive. 7) Stalwart Defender: Good, cool abilities that fit the theme, and a good capstone power.

Chapter 7 (Magic Items) has something of everything: magic weapons, armor, wondrous items, minor and major artifacts, etc. The new metamagic rods are really powerful considering the price, the new staves are pretty boring, and there's a lot of stuff geared specifically for the new classes, which makes sense. If you've dumped Strength and are relying on Muleback Cords, you've got this book to thank. My only regret is that the chapter introduces so many fun cursed magic items, and I hardly ever get an opportunity to use any in a game.

Chapter 8 (New Rules) is an important chapter containing three new concepts: additional combat maneuvers, hero points, and traits. [I'm almost done, but have run out of space here. The end of the review can be found at: http://jhaeman.blogspot.com.au/2017/07/advanced-players-guide-rpg.html]


A very awesome book

5/5

this expands almost perfectly on what the core is.

They add some very solid and original class ideas.

This a must buy for some that like pathfinder


5/5


The Shinning Example of What Pathfinder Books Should Be

5/5

The Advanced Player's Guide (APG) is to this day one the best books for Pathfinder. It introduces a number of (now iconic) classes unique to the system.

The overall balance of the book is amazing. Alchemist and Inquisitor are probably the two most well-balanced classes in the game, and the latter is what I consider to be the best designed one in all of Pathfinder.

We get a few alternate rules that are pretty cool, such as word casting and character traits. We even get new combat maneuvers added to the fold!

The possibilities of character creation allowed by this book greatly increases the variety and fun of Pathfinder. If you can only buy a single expansion book, buy this one.

The book is not perfect, of course. The Summoner class (and even more so, its archetypes) would really benefit from clearer wording. It's sad to see cool ideas such as word casting being completely abandoned after this...

Still, those are minor problems in comparison to all the good stuff that is included in the APG, and the book still deserves its 5-star rating.


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Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

I was home sick but at least I had yummy dead tree copies to read yesterday.


I just got mine and I must say I am impressed by how much stuff is squeezed between these covers. I love the fact each class gets pages and pages of description, while Core Rulebook ones generally have just 2 or 3.

Let's just wait for a FAQ, clarifications and errata document then.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Mine just arrived. 8 days to Germany, since the day my PDF was released. Very nice!

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Rulebook Subscriber

Is there a reason to hold off the PDF release at this point, the dead tree book is widely available, and I know for one I'm clamoring to get my PDF to lallygag at work with while my dead tree one makes its way through the mail.


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Maps, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Galnörag wrote:
Is there a reason to hold off the PDF release at this point, the dead tree book is widely available, and I know for one I'm clamoring to get my PDF to lallygag at work with while my dead tree one makes its way through the mail.

Agreed! Release the PDF!!

Edit: Please!


i asked in another thread so i wonder if this is a better one for it, but is there a time to be expected for the pdf to drop tomorrow or some arbitrary time. the newest adventure path says 1am so im just curious

Grand Lodge

I Paizo expects FLGSs to respect street date, they need to respect it as well. Actually selling stuff ahead of when they're going to would not be doing that. Those that already have the PDF (and a few hard copies) are either subscribers (who receive the PDF early as a benefit) or purchased their books from someplace that the street date was not respected.


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Maps, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Andrew Betts wrote:
I Paizo expects FLGSs to respect street date, they need to respect it as well. Actually selling stuff ahead of when they're going to would not be doing that. Those that already have the PDF (and a few hard copies) are either subscribers (who receive the PDF early as a benefit) or purchased their books from someplace that the street date was not respected.

Yeah, I get it. I'm just being impatient, since my FLGS is among those stores respecting the street date. I don't actually expect them to release it early.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Rulebook Subscriber
Andrew Betts wrote:
I Paizo expects FLGSs to respect street date, they need to respect it as well. Actually selling stuff ahead of when they're going to would not be doing that. Those that already have the PDF (and a few hard copies) are either subscribers (who receive the PDF early as a benefit) or purchased their books from someplace that the street date was not respected.

Wasn't the street date the 3rd?


Love that new book "ink" smell. Ahhhhhhhhh.

I'm amazed at how much crunch is in this book. In previous editions of "the game" it would take four or five books to get this much, with a lot of questionable filler to pad things out.


Question about the alchemist after reading my book; Deadly bombs is gone? I mean the one where you increase the damage of your bombs by 1d6? My alchemist player aint gonna be happy:P

Edit: Oh, and great book by the way, loads of options and new stuff:)
Loved the anti-paladin!:D

Grand Lodge

Galnörag wrote:
Andrew Betts wrote:
I Paizo expects FLGSs to respect street date, they need to respect it as well. Actually selling stuff ahead of when they're going to would not be doing that. Those that already have the PDF (and a few hard copies) are either subscribers (who receive the PDF early as a benefit) or purchased their books from someplace that the street date was not respected.
Wasn't the street date the 3rd?

Nope, August 5th ... Thursday ... tomorrow

The Exchange

Oh good. I can go swing by and pick up a copy before my game.


Shoot. I was looking forward to the PDF today. Oh well. *forces self to wait*


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Maps, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Jikuu wrote:
Shoot. I was looking forward to the PDF today. Oh well. *forces self to wait*

Can you teach me that trick? I seem to be having trouble with it.. :-)


Jam412 wrote:
Can you teach me that trick? I seem to be having trouble with it.. :-)

It's hard. The DC goes up by 20 when a release date is changed. =P

In all honesty, though, I realize they took a day or so extra to make sure it was nice and neat and accurate, so I won't complain very much.


Anybody have a clue at what time the PDF will be available for download? We're coming down to the wire now...


okay, im getting the feeling that amazon messed up my preorder YET AGAIN just like they did with my core rulebook and the bestiary >___<

Im seriously annoyed that i absolutely never get my books on time, because i cannot order them anywhere else...

Does anyone know a reliable onlinestore in germany that sells pathfinder books and gets them out on release? (and doesn't require a credit card)

Dark Archive

says 9:00 AM tomorrow wonder if thats pst or cst?


It says 10 AM for me, so I am guessing it is showing your time for you.


Looking over the Summoner spell list p 64, and wondering how much of it is intentional and how much of it is going to end up in Errata?

e.g. Greater Invisibility as 3rd level spell, Teleport as 4th and Greater Teleport as 5th. Those I can see as being modified specifically for the Summoner.

However, Summon Monster 7 is listed as a 5th level spell and Summon monster 4 as a 6th level spell. Is the 6th level spell supposed to be 9 (IX instead of IV)?


imgurahl wrote:

Looking over the Summoner spell list p 64, and wondering how much of it is intentional and how much of it is going to end up in Errata?

e.g. Greater Invisibility as 3rd level spell, Teleport as 4th and Greater Teleport as 5th. Those I can see as being modified specifically for the Summoner.

However, Summon Monster 7 is listed as a 5th level spell and Summon monster 4 as a 6th level spell. Is the 6th level spell supposed to be 9 (IX instead of IV)?

Look at the level in which they gain them, not spell level but class level, then look at what spell level and class level a full caster gains them

I am guessing they are close or the same level a full caster gains them.


seekerofshadowlight wrote:
imgurahl wrote:

Looking over the Summoner spell list p 64, and wondering how much of it is intentional and how much of it is going to end up in Errata?

e.g. Greater Invisibility as 3rd level spell, Teleport as 4th and Greater Teleport as 5th. Those I can see as being modified specifically for the Summoner.

However, Summon Monster 7 is listed as a 5th level spell and Summon monster 4 as a 6th level spell. Is the 6th level spell supposed to be 9 (IX instead of IV)?

Look at the level in which they gain them, not spell level but class level, then look at what spell level and class level a full caster gains them

I am guessing they are close or the same level a full caster gains them.

That part makes sense. But being able to cast Summon Monster VII before you can cast Summon Monster IV doesn't.

Liberty's Edge

Just curious;...what is the street date for the APG?
Couldn't score it today.


Heathansson wrote:

Just curious;...what is the street date for the APG?

Couldn't score it today.

Tomorrow, August 5th.

Liberty's Edge

right on; thanks!!!

Shadow Lodge

imgurahl wrote:
seekerofshadowlight wrote:
imgurahl wrote:

Looking over the Summoner spell list p 64, and wondering how much of it is intentional and how much of it is going to end up in Errata?

e.g. Greater Invisibility as 3rd level spell, Teleport as 4th and Greater Teleport as 5th. Those I can see as being modified specifically for the Summoner.

However, Summon Monster 7 is listed as a 5th level spell and Summon monster 4 as a 6th level spell. Is the 6th level spell supposed to be 9 (IX instead of IV)?

Look at the level in which they gain them, not spell level but class level, then look at what spell level and class level a full caster gains them

I am guessing they are close or the same level a full caster gains them.

That part makes sense. But being able to cast Summon Monster VII before you can cast Summon Monster IV doesn't.

From what I've heard, that's a typo. I believe it should be IX not IV, though I don't have the book, and can't remember if anyone from Paizo has mentioned that error or not.


Release time for the PDF they have listed as 2:00 pm (I'm thinking EST). Hopefully will be able to hit a not so local gaming store at lunch :-D. I SOOOOOOOOOO want to check out the Zen Archer....


Any official word on what timezone it is? I live in Portugal, and I have 7:AM listed.


The time zone depends on you. Go and look it will show your time zone if your logged in and had set it. The time is 10 AM for me which is EST. If ya did not set your timezone in your profile it will not show your time .


Much obliged.


Well, being german and used to 24h-clocks, I'm not THAT good at the am/pm-stuf. But I'm logged in and it says the PDF will be available at 02:00 PM. Which, as far as I know, was about 40 minutes ago.

Is the release late or am I just too stupid to read a clock? In the latter case, would somebody please tell me at what time the PDF will be available in germany (CET)?

EDIT: Nevermind. I just realized I had the wrong time zone set in my account settings. Still 1 hour left, it seems. I'm back to waiting ... and feeling stupid :-/


Blave wrote:

Well, being german and used to 24h-clocks, I'm not THAT good at the am/pm-stuf. But I'm logged in and it says the PDF will be available at 02:00 PM. Which, as far as I know, was about 40 minutes ago.

Is the release late or am I just too stupid to read a clock? In the latter case, would somebody please tell me at what time the PDF will be available in germany (CET)?

EDIT: Nevermind. I just realized I had the wrong time zone set in my account settings. Still 1 hour left, it seems. I'm back to waiting ... and feeling stupid :-/

Hallo, 15 Uhr sollte es sein meiner Meinung nach.

Also 7 Uhr nach amerikanischer Zeit. Sind aber schon überfällig.Denke es ist erst heute abend online.Wenn überhaubt.Die Server werden total überlastet sein.Sonst Versuch auf mygully.com

Jetz steht das was von 4pm. Sage ich ja.Daurt noch bis morgen früh deutscher Zeit!


mightyjules wrote:
Blave wrote:

Well, being german and used to 24h-clocks, I'm not THAT good at the am/pm-stuf. But I'm logged in and it says the PDF will be available at 02:00 PM. Which, as far as I know, was about 40 minutes ago.

Is the release late or am I just too stupid to read a clock? In the latter case, would somebody please tell me at what time the PDF will be available in germany (CET)?

EDIT: Nevermind. I just realized I had the wrong time zone set in my account settings. Still 1 hour left, it seems. I'm back to waiting ... and feeling stupid :-/

Hallo, 15 Uhr sollte es sein meiner Meinung nach.

Also 7 Uhr nach amerikanischer Zeit. Sind aber schon überfällig.Denke es ist erst heute abend online.Wenn überhaubt.Die Server werden total überlastet sein.Sonst Versuch auf mygully.com

Jetz steht das was von 4pm. Sage ich ja.Daurt noch bis morgen früh deutscher Zeit!

4 PM ist 4 Uhr nachmittags also 16 Uhr. In ner halben Stunde müsste es so weit sein.

Thanks anyway.


mightyjules wrote:
Blave wrote:

Well, being german and used to 24h-clocks, I'm not THAT good at the am/pm-stuf. But I'm logged in and it says the PDF will be available at 02:00 PM. Which, as far as I know, was about 40 minutes ago.

Is the release late or am I just too stupid to read a clock? In the latter case, would somebody please tell me at what time the PDF will be available in germany (CET)?

EDIT: Nevermind. I just realized I had the wrong time zone set in my account settings. Still 1 hour left, it seems. I'm back to waiting ... and feeling stupid :-/

Hallo, 15 Uhr sollte es sein meiner Meinung nach.

Also 7 Uhr nach amerikanischer Zeit. Sind aber schon überfällig.Denke es ist erst heute abend online.Wenn überhaubt.Die Server werden total überlastet sein.Sonst Versuch auf mygully.com

Jetz steht das was von 4pm. Sage ich ja.Daurt noch bis morgen früh deutscher Zeit!

Mi scusi signore ma non riesco a comprendere cosa ha scritto..


Kaiyanwang wrote:


Mi scusi signore ma non riesco a comprendere cosa ha scritto..

Well, I can kinda figure out what you are saying here even without knowing any ... italian, I guess?

But yeah, that's pretty much why I avoid posting in german on english message boards even if I know there are plenty of other germans around.


Blave wrote:
Kaiyanwang wrote:


Mi scusi signore ma non riesco a comprendere cosa ha scritto..

Well, I can kinda figure out what you are saying here even without knowing any ... italian, I guess?

But yeah, that's pretty much why I avoid posting in german on english message boards even if I know there are plenty of other germans around.

yes, Italiano!

I was just joking ;)


Why guess when there's the Infallible Google Translator!?


GOT IT!!! :D

Well, excuse me please. I'm busy now... ;)


I HAZ IT!

now to go read it.


From the Shielded Fighter alternate class features:

Shield Mastery (Ex): At 19th level, a shielded fighter
gains DR 5/— when wielding a shield. This ability replaces
armor mastery.

How is this an adequate substitution, essentially giving the fighter the same ability he'd get, minus the part of armor also providing him with DR?


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Maps, Rulebook Subscriber
Viriato wrote:

From the Shielded Fighter alternate class features:

Shield Mastery (Ex): At 19th level, a shielded fighter
gains DR 5/— when wielding a shield. This ability replaces
armor mastery.

How is this an adequate substitution, essentially giving the fighter the same ability he'd get, minus the part of armor also providing him with DR?

The thing to remember with Archetypes is that they are not 1 for 1 replacements. Which is why you replace a series of abilities and don't pick and choose.


Your point? I replace a series of standard Fighter features to make him more shield-themed, without picking or choosing. One of them happens to give me half the same benefits as the one it's replacing, essentially making him more vulnerable. What am I missing here?

Also, from the Phalanx Soldier:

Deft Shield (Ex): At 7th level, the armor check penalty
from a shield and the attack roll penalty are reduced by
–1 for a phalanx soldier using a tower shield. At 11th level,
these penalties are reduced by –2. This ability replaces
armor training 2 and 3.

I thought the Fighter was proficient with tower shields, which already negates the abovementioned penalty to attack. Why bother including it?

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Viriato wrote:

Your point? I replace a series of standard Fighter features to make him more shield-themed, without picking or choosing. One of them happens to give me half the same benefits as the one it's replacing, essentially making him more vulnerable. What am I missing here?

Also, from the Phalanx Soldier:

Deft Shield (Ex): At 7th level, the armor check penalty
from a shield and the attack roll penalty are reduced by
–1 for a phalanx soldier using a tower shield. At 11th level,
these penalties are reduced by –2. This ability replaces
armor training 2 and 3.

I thought the Fighter was proficient with tower shields, which already negates the abovementioned penalty to attack. Why bother including it?

If you are using a Tower Shield you always get a -2 penalty to attacks, regardless of being proficient or not. Not having proficiency just makes it worse.

Scarab Sages Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games

Gorbacz wrote:
Viriato wrote:

Your point? I replace a series of standard Fighter features to make him more shield-themed, without picking or choosing. One of them happens to give me half the same benefits as the one it's replacing, essentially making him more vulnerable. What am I missing here?

Also, from the Phalanx Soldier:

Deft Shield (Ex): At 7th level, the armor check penalty
from a shield and the attack roll penalty are reduced by
–1 for a phalanx soldier using a tower shield. At 11th level,
these penalties are reduced by –2. This ability replaces
armor training 2 and 3.

I thought the Fighter was proficient with tower shields, which already negates the abovementioned penalty to attack. Why bother including it?

If you are using a Tower Shield you always get a -2 penalty to attacks, regardless of being proficient or not. Not having proficiency just makes it worse.

Actually, attacking with a tower shield without being proficient with it means you apply its ACP to your attack rolls; i.e., you take a -10 penalty (-9 if it's masterwork).

This might or might not stack with the normal -2 penalty.


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Maps, Rulebook Subscriber
Viriato wrote:

Your point? I replace a series of standard Fighter features to make him more shield-themed, without picking or choosing. One of them happens to give me half the same benefits as the one it's replacing, essentially making him more vulnerable. What am I missing here?

Also, from the Phalanx Soldier:

Deft Shield (Ex): At 7th level, the armor check penalty
from a shield and the attack roll penalty are reduced by
–1 for a phalanx soldier using a tower shield. At 11th level,
these penalties are reduced by –2. This ability replaces
armor training 2 and 3.

I thought the Fighter was proficient with tower shields, which already negates the abovementioned penalty to attack. Why bother including it?

My point s that you can't compare one ability gained with one lost you need to compare all of the abilities gained with all of them that are lost some will be more powerful and some less. You have to look at the whole class compared to the whole class with the Archetype applied.

For Deft Shield I don't know why the mention of the attack roll penalty is there, but decreasing the Armor Check Penalty makes sense since the -10 Armor Check Penalty of the Shield is still applied to Dex and Str skills.


I just got mine yesterday, woot! So excited, my initial page-flip revealed
so many options that I can't wait to really get into it.

One thing though, I was really kind of hoping that they would have something more on the whole druid weapons thing. I looked, and there didn't seem to be anything about it. To me, it's never made sense that a demihuman from a culture vastly different than a Euro-Celtic real world equivalent would be restricted to weapons based on our RW mythology for druid choices. An elf druid restricted to clubs n' slings? A dwarf druid limited to scimitars?

I was really hoping for a different list of druid weapons based on
respective cultures... for the underground dwarves, picks n' mattocks. For
the forest-dwelling elves, maybe bows or staves. Not even sure what it would be for halflings and/or gnomes, but really can't see them with sickles n' scimitars... Guess it needs a houserule, but was hoping for something more official.

Scarab Sages Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games

Viriato wrote:
Your point? I replace a series of standard Fighter features to make him more shield-themed, without picking or choosing. One of them happens to give me half the same benefits as the one it's replacing, essentially making him more vulnerable. What am I missing here?

As he pointed out, it only "makes him more vulnerable" if you equate it as a 1-to-1 comparison.

Compare, say, the Active Defense ability. Would you say the dodge bonus from this ability makes you more vulnerable or less vulnerable than reducing your ACP and movement penalties for armor? What about trading weapon training in a second, third, and fourth weapon for shield buffet (offense) and shield guard (defense)?

It's all part and parcel.

There was a thought to making the fighter section just one long menu of options, but it was decided that fighters already got that by way of their jillion bonus feats (including many shield-specific feats added in this book, FWIW), so the fighter section would instead focus on package deals.

Those package deals swap out whole groups of abilities (taken as a unit) for other whole groups of abilities (taken as a unit). Even though each ability is literally paired with an ability it replaces, each individual sub-transaction is not always going to be exact, because to make one ability trade HERE better means you need to "pay for it" by making an ability trade THERE less good.

That's the design philosophy anyway. Whether you feel like that's a good approach, well, YMMV.


I see your collective points, and admit I spoke with haste. I guess I was just mildly disappointed that this book didn't really provide my current shield fighter with the zomgawesome options I was expecting, and that a number of those clash with the 3.5 material I am still using.

As for the tower shield, good thing I stopped using it, as apparently I was doing it all wrong. The feat description itself doesn't really state it, and the official Pathfinder SRD lists the Tower Proficiency Feat as - and I quote - no penalties on attack rolls when using a tower shield.


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Maps, Rulebook Subscriber

That is kind of sneaky the Tower Shield Proficiency removes the armor check penalty to attack rolls, but then they sneak that -2 to attack rolls when using the tower shield into the item description. Oh well now I at least can see the reason for Deft Shield explained the way it is.

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