Optimizer from 5e trying to start optimizing in PF2E. What melee focused 1-20 builds can you recommend?

Me and my group are heavy powergaming group and we like many are leaving DnD and trying PF2e for first time. Obviously it will take long time before we can start crafting power builds for PF2e as system is huge!

So I would like to start with something grounded like melee-focused character (Paladin or Cleric/Ranger too, doesn't have to be without magic) for our first campaign. So what kind of best melee focused builds you can recommend and I would be grateful if you could also give me breakdown of your build so I can start to see "patterns" and "syngergies" etc. and slowly build my understanding of optimization in this system.

Thank you very much for every single proposition! Go wild, I don't really have any race, class/mulitclass or alligment restricion :). Just want to deliver very high damage/DPR and hopefully still keep nice defenses up.

Since you are all new, I'm guessing it will not be a Free Archetype game, right?

The best advice that I can give you is that you cannot build an optimized character in a whiteroom if the intent is to play the character in an actual game. If you pick only options that are powerful for yourself, then you are missing the more powerful options that support and help your team.

Instead you need to optimize your party as a whole. Even better is if you can optimize your party tuned to the needs and expectations of the campaign. A dungeon crawl campaign like Abomination Vaults is going to need different optimization than an investigative campaign heavy on alchemical themes like Fall of Plaguestone.

The maul fighter is a brutal fighter build.

Giant instinct barbarian is a real hammer, but has to take a lot of pain in the lower levels due to the low AC.

A paladin Champion with a two-handed weapon can be nice.

Magus with two-handed weapon hits hard. A two-hander spellstrike can be quite nasty.

well, a straight up fighter is always going to be a strong melee.

fighter's high accuracy directly translates to more damage and more critical hits, and he isn't shy on defences as well.

one of the things you will notice is that most of the "power" of the classes comes straight from the class chassis. You use your feats to expand horizontally on that, so as to have a wider variety of tools, rather than a straight up increase in what you are doing already.

There are some exceptions ofc (like dangerous sorcery on a blaster is straight up more damage) but for the most part, the above is true.

a very vanilla party of a fighter, a cleric, a rogue, and a wizard is actually already quite optimised as long as you don't deviate from what's expected from you (like the fighter investing in strength and the rogue in dexterity)

Having said all that, there are indeed some things that are a tad stronger than others, so, as an example:

hammers/flails are better than other weapons in general if you get critical specialisation from your class. That is, because they have by far the best crit spec out of all weapons. Swords on the other hand have one of the worst.

AoO is very strong in pf2, so, something with reach to trigger that more often will be an overall increase in damage, even though reach weapons are generally a die lower than non-reach ones.

AoO with a reach flail/hammer is combining the best out of the two worlds. Now not only you get those AoO more often, but if you happen to crit, then you automatically drop them prone and they basically just lost their entire turn trying to get to you (move to get to you, stand up, move to get to you is 3 actions spend on their part just to reach you).

well, a straight up fighter is always going to be a strong melee.

fighter's high accuracy directly translates to more damage and more critical hits, and he isn't shy on defences as well.

one of the things you will notice is that most of the "power" of the classes comes straight from the class chassis. You use your feats to expand horizontally on that, so as to have a wider variety of tools, rather than a straight up increase in what you are doing already.

There are some exceptions ofc (like dangerous sorcery on a blaster is straight up more damage) but for the most part, the above is true.

a very vanilla party of a fighter, a cleric, a rogue, and a wizard is actually already quite optimised as long as you don't deviate from what's expected from you (like the fighter investing in strength and the rogue in dexterity)

Having said all that, there are indeed some things that are a tad stronger than others, so, as an example:

hammers/flails are better than other weapons in general if you get critical specialisation from your class. That is, because they have by far the best crit spec out of all weapons. Swords on the other hand have one of the worst.

AoO is very strong in pf2, so, something with reach to trigger that more often will be an overall increase in damage, even though reach weapons are generally a die lower than non-reach ones.

AoO with a reach flail/hammer is combining the best out of the two worlds. Now not only you get those AoO more often, but if you happen to crit, then you automatically drop them prone and they basically just lost their entire turn trying to get to you (move to get to you, stand up, move to get to you is 3 actions spend on their part just to reach you).

Interesting. I also heard that pick fighters are very strong. So Fighter in general is best melee. How about his access to magical damage, in DnD it's a big thing to have access to that and not rely on found magic weapons. How would you build Fighter to as good as it can get and cover as much weaknesses as possible at same time?

How are Clerics when it comes to some melee builds also?

The best advice that I can give you is that you cannot build an optimized character in a whiteroom if the intent is to play the character in an actual game. If you pick only options that are powerful for yourself, then you are missing the more powerful options that support and help your team.

Instead you need to optimize your party as a whole. Even better is if you can optimize your party tuned to the needs and expectations of the campaign. A dungeon crawl campaign like Abomination Vaults is going to need different optimization than an investigative campaign heavy on alchemical themes like Fall of Plaguestone.

Such informations won't be available to me for some time, so right now let's just say I am looking for general best melee build and let's try to build that without guarantee that there will be other specific character to put specific buff (although mentioning them is cool too, I can always advice such support character to someone) on my melee monster. Though knowing my group I can say that there is big chance that one will be sort of support caster for group if such role is big and nice in PF2e (in DnD support is meh, CC is the king).

As for campaign, we usually don't do much crawling, we have around 2-3 combats per session/long rest, or even just 1. We usually just mix exploration, sandbox, investigation, combat, treasure hunt. We don't setup for any particular "theme of whole campaign" as our GM just goes with the flow and sets new adventures per each few sessions.

That's all I can say if that helps.

If you pick only options that are powerful for yourself, then you are missing the more powerful options that support and help your team. <snip>

Instead you need to optimize your party as a whole.

As for campaign, we usually don't do much crawling, we have around 2-3 combats per session/long rest, or even just 1. We usually just mix exploration, sandbox, investigation, combat, treasure hunt. We don't setup for any particular "theme of whole campaign" as our GM just goes with the flow and sets new adventures per each few sessions.

You've just described precisely the kind of campaign where your fighter needs to be a more well-rounded build, rather than the "best fighter".

PF2 plays differently than DnD (or for that matter PF1). PF2 rewards versatility and teamwork, not single-minded focus.

If you build to be the 'most damage dealing fighter, evah', and the rest of your party has similar builds, you're going to lose encounters early and often.

You and your GM might benefit a great deal from watching the nine-video series "Combat And Tactics" by Knights Of Last Call

So Fighter in general is best melee.

If you only care about damage, yes. I would rate Thief Rogue the same as Fighter all things considered.

Build wise, Treasure Vault is giving us the Falcata, a new weapon that is looking very spicy for sword and board/free hand fighters. Not the best fighter build damage-wise, but it has damage comparable to polearm fighters.

I personally prefer sword and board. It is fun, very durable, can fit CC and with the falcata you still do a lot of damage.

You would need to be a Tengu to get proficiency at 1, though.

If you build to be the 'most damage dealing fighter, evah', and the rest of your party has similar builds, you're going to lose encounters early and often.

We always seperate "roles" in party. So I usually go the damage dealer, the front line to pulverize in melee and if I am that role, then rest of my party will take different ones: like sorcerer for magic + face (unless I am Paladin, then I combine front line melee + face), someone for stealth and utility etc.

Right now, as I am the "leader" of our group, I have the task to start setting up our party and first piece is usually my build and we then go around that, seeking what we are missing as I am "the rule lawyer" because I have incredible memory for rules :P. But enough about how we play. Anyway, if I go for front line "max damage" then no, rest won't go for the same, we always like where everyone have their own niche to shine. I hope that makes sense.

So, could someone elaborate more about melee builds prefering flails/hammer/picks and what is best setup: dual wielding, SnS or two-handed? How Fighter and Barbarian do vs Paladins or Clerics/Casters that can buff themselves for melee combat?

Such informations won't be available to me for some time, so right now let's just say I am looking for general best melee build and let's try to build that without guarantee that there will be other specific character to put specific buff (although mentioning them is cool too, I can always advice such support character to someone) on my melee monster.

Then just be a fighter with maxed strength, with secondary boosts going into constitution and wisdom. Almost nothing else matters. Take obvious general feats like Toughness and Fleet. But almost everything about your build that matters will play better if you synergize with your team. For example, Intimidating Strike is an OK feat on its own, but an insanely good feat with a Dread Striker Rogue in the party. I suppose you could focus on athletics, acrobatics, and intimidation if you want the most combat focused skill increases.

If you really want to have maximum flexibility on your own, a two weapon fighter is worth considering because they can pivot between different weapons, materials, and damage types. Just make sure you get Doubling Rings, a fully enchanted main weapon, and a variety of mundane options to switch to.

So Fighter in general is best melee. How about his access to magical damage, in DnD it's a big thing to have access to that and not rely on found magic weapons

The fighter has maybe the worse access to magic damage, and it doesn't matter because this is not a concern in PF2. PF2 makes the expectation for magic items explicit. It is virtually guaranteed you will find a +1 weapon before level 2, unless you're playing with the automatic bonus progression variant rule.

How are Clerics when it comes to some melee builds also?

Worse than any true martial class, but better than people will tell you. They have a subclass choice called War Priest which gets additional armor and weapon proficiencies, but you can't play them like a melee fighter and just mash the Strike button all day. You need to utilize your spells to heal, buff yourself, and occasionally blast someone to supplement your weapon attacks. Luckily with the 3 action economy you can do things like Move > True Strike or Heal > Strike, True Strike > Channel Smite, or Cast two action spell > Strike.

breithauptclan wrote:

The best advice that I can give you is that you cannot build an optimized character in a whiteroom if the intent is to play the character in an actual game. If you pick only options that are powerful for yourself, then you are missing the more powerful options that support and help your team.

Instead you need to optimize your party as a whole. Even better is if you can optimize your party tuned to the needs and expectations of the campaign. A dungeon crawl campaign like Abomination Vaults is going to need different optimization than an investigative campaign heavy on alchemical themes like Fall of Plaguestone.

Such informations won't be available to me for some time, so right now let's just say I am looking for general best melee build and let's try to build that without guarantee that there will be other specific character to put specific buff (although mentioning them is cool too, I can always advice such support character to someone) on my melee monster. Though knowing my group I can say that there is big chance that one will be sort of support caster for group if such role is big and nice in PF2e (in DnD support is meh, CC is the king).

As for campaign, we usually don't do much crawling, we have around 2-3 combats per session/long rest, or even just 1. We usually just mix exploration, sandbox, investigation, combat, treasure hunt. We don't setup for any particular "theme of whole campaign" as our GM just goes with the flow and sets new adventures per each few sessions.

That's all I can say if that helps.

it really depends on the whole team in pf2 though.

as an example, you can spend resources getting stuff to make your enemies flatfooted, but if you have another melee to flank with, suddenly those resources arent that great.
but then you get a 3rd member of the team that's ranged, and suddenly your "make target flat-footed" shines again because now you effectively buffed that ranged character as well.
and etc.

as a general advice:
any build that has a good 3rd action that's not attack based, that can reliably pull off 2 attacks per turn at half+ their turns, and has a reliable spender for their reaction, will do well in pf2.

having a support like bard will be a big boost to any party, but not mandatory, but some stuff like flatfooted and maybe a -1 status penelty on opponents (like from Intimidate or other sources of Frightened) are much more reliable to get the upper hand.

You've just described precisely the kind of campaign where your fighter needs to be a more well-rounded build, rather than the "best fighter".

PF2 plays differently than DnD (or for that matter PF1). PF2 rewards versatility and teamwork, not single-minded focus.

Indeed.

Fighter is considered the best melee class because it has a proficiency boost above what other classes get. That translates to a +2 bonus independent of any bonuses that may be gained during the combat.

But picking a class isn't much of a 'build'.

Now the things you need to think about to fill out your build is the horizontal expansion that shroudb was mentioning. Grab some debuff options like Intimidating Strike or Knockdown. Maybe some action usage improvements like Sudden Charge. Or M.A.P improvements like Exacting Strike or Swipe. Do you want to use spells? maybe grab a spellcasting archetype.

Then start thinking about how to fill in holes in your offense and defense when you can't do your main thing of standing next to the enemy and swinging at them. How do you handle ranged attackers? Flying attackers? Invisible attackers? Hit and run attackers? Enemies that are resistant to physical damage? Enemies that debuff you with things like knockdown or grab? Enemies that hit you or allies with persistent damage? Enemies that have hard-hitting reactions when attacked at melee range?

And at the highest optimization levels, you start thinking about what your party members are trying to do and if there is anything that you can do to help them. After you have made one attack at your highest bonus, is it more beneficial overall for you to swing again at a penalty, or to do something to help an ally to succeed at what they want? Rogue in the party? Knocking an enemy prone applies flat-footed to the Rogues attacks - even ranged attacks. Does that Rogue have Dread Striker? Intimidating Strike suddenly gains a lot of value.

A real basic overview of the choices:

1. Maul Fighter: Knock stuff down with crits, hit it when it gets up. Happens at lot at higher level. You can pick up feats to knockdown even better. Trip is a sort of god maneuver in PF2.

2. Giant Instinct Barbarian or Two-handed Weapon Magus: Brutal critical hits. You won't hit as often as the fighter. You won't crit as often. But when you do hit, you hit hard. When you crit, it's just brutal.

The feats for both are a little more exciting as well. Fighter feats are very, very vanilla. Barb and Magus feats are a little more interesting.

3. Champion Paladin Two-hander: Defend people while you smack things. Your AC will be higher and you get some nice feats. You can take Champion Archetype to get the Champion's Reaction. Fighter feats are so boring taking the Champion Multiclass archetype is easy.

4. Rogue Thief or Bully Archetype do good damage and are far more versatile. But they are softer targets and go down easier if the enemy targets you. But Rogue is real fun. Tons of skills. Great feats. More utility than the other classes.

Now I have some time, I can put here my Sword and Shield proposal.

Tengu Fighter (or human with versatile heritage -> Tengu Adopted Ancestry if the GM is fine with that)

Lvl 1: Sudden Charge
Lvl 2: Reactive Shield
Lvl 4: Knockdown
Lvl 6: Reflexive Shield
Lvl 8: Quick Shield Block
Lvl 9: Shielded Stride
Lvl 10: Improved Knockdown
Lvl 12: Paragon's Guard
Lvl 14: Stance Savant

Something like that. You need Tengu Weapon Familiarity to use the Falcata and get a level-relevant Sturdy Shield so your shield blocks can keep up. You also need to invest a bit in Athletics (and get Titan Wrestler) so Knockdown works. As I said, this would do damage comparable to a Polearm Fighter, It is a bit worse at battlefield control, but it packs good CC and is way more durable. You will need to wait 3 weeks or so til the weapon is available in Pathbuilder, though.

If the Thief Rogue interest you and you want to do damage with it, just make sure you grab Gang up, Opportune Backstab and Precise Debilitations (Preparation at 12 is also good).

Ok, I think I can see pattern that Fighter is the choice here (what a great relief after 5e Fighter being so bad), so let's shift focus then on Fighter:

1. SnS vs dual wielding vs two-handed? Which is mathemathicaly better?
2. Seems like most people recommend mauls/hammers, flails or picks. Because fighter +2 to crit rolls those are weapons that just synergize best, correct?
3. Seems like Knockdown/trips is very strong option as I see it recommended everywhere. So high Athletic investement and feats that support it?
4. I saw high Intimidation being mentioned also a lot, though I don't yet grasp synergies here.
5. Saw some recommendtions for taking feats to get access to Sorcerer spells, mainly for Heroism, Haste or some other buffs (heard elemental damage is very big buff to Fighters) to further increase the melee aspect.
6. What multiclass options are considered the most optimized for Fighter?

1. SnS vs dual wielding vs two-handed? Which is mathemathicaly better?

Better at doing what?

Maximizing damage against an enemy that is mildly resistant to physical damage - dual wield with Double Slice.

Surviving - take the shield.

Shield with a weapon attachment like a shield spike, you could probably do both.

But there are other things you could be optimizing for too.

2. Seems like most people recommend mauls/hammers, flails or picks. Because fighter +2 to crit rolls those are weapons that just synergize best, correct?

That is because of the critical specialization effect. Knocked prone is strictly better than giving flat-footed. Or in the case of Pick it is because of the critical damage that it gives.

3. Seems like Knockdown/trips is very strong option as I see it recommended everywhere. So high Athletic investement and feats that support it?

It puts enemies in a really bad place. They have some rather big penalties to their attack and defense while they are prone. And standing up or crawling away both provoke Attack of Opportunity. So they have no good options and anything they do wastes actions that they would like to be doing damage with.

4. I saw high Intimidation being mentioned also a lot, though I don't yet grasp synergies here.

Intimidation is mostly for party synergy. Instead of swinging for a third time at high penalty, try using Demoralize as your first action. If you manage to succeed at the check, then all of your attacks and all of your allies attacks are a bit more likely to connect, and the enemy's attacks are a bit less likely.

5. Saw some recommendtions for taking feats to get access to Sorcerer spells, mainly for Heroism, Haste or some other buffs (heard elemental damage is very big buff to Fighters) to further increase the melee aspect.

Not sure on this. It is an option, certainly. Not sure how good of an option it is.

6. What multiclass options are considered the most optimized for Fighter?

Again - to do what?

More damage? Probably Barbarian, maybe Thaumaturge.
More defense? Champion.
Spells? Depends on which mental stats you pick to go with.

Think I get what you want finally, just to see what poeple do now to reverse engeneer and learn why, right?

Most of the time, damage wise it goes

2W > 2H >= SnS

CC/Battlefield control

2H >= SnS > 2W

Endurance

SnS > 2H = 2W

all builds need Sudden charge, the feat is great.

You are also using Heavy armor for all of them.

2W needs light picks, Dual Weapon Warrior Dedication, Agile Grace, Dual Onslaught and Maybe Fearsome Brute. Sneak attack can also be a little boost.

2H depends, if you are going reach, you need either lunging stance or disrupting stance (or both eventually), combat reflexes and Knockdown and Improved Knockdown if possible. Maul just works with anything, just get lucky and trip for free. One of the few builds that I think Power Attack is actually decent.

SnS need a lot of shield related feats (posted a sample build above), but you definitely need room for Knockdown. It makes standing next to a dangerous creature safer and eventually triggers your AoO.

Intimidation is mentioned because Heavy armor takes care of damaging Reflex effects, so you can just dump dex. That leaves you 1 of your 4 boosts free. Most people put it into CHA for Demoralize, the action is really good at softening enemies, and it is a good use of your last acrion after you hace alreasy attacked twice.

I would leave the buffs to the buffers. Let casters take care of that. Caster dedications start really slow, so I would leave that for other time. They can be decent, though.

Multiclass as in 5e no longer exists. Now the class you pick is the one you get from 1 to 20. What you get are archetypes, a type of feats that gives you ways to poach feats and abilities from other classes at a reduced level or add new feats to your list of option exclusive of the archetype.

powergame require teamwork and preparation

there are a some extremely powerful feat like debilitating shot

fighter with big bonk d12 weapon need teammate can force enemy to trigger aoo

with things like command winter bolt wolf drag knockdown

Ok, I think I can see pattern that Fighter is the choice here (what a great relief after 5e Fighter being so bad), so let's shift focus then on Fighter:

The Fighter is pretty good yes and one of the best. But it is not the best in every situation. For example if you are getting significant support from your allies in terms of some of flanking, lower enemy defense from spells like Synesthesia, bonus to hit from heroism or inspired courage or just Aid, then the classes that do more base damage are better.

1. SnS vs dual wielding vs two-handed? Which is mathemathicaly better?

It depends Dual weilding is better at single target damage, Two handed is better overall

2. Seems like most people recommend mauls/hammers, flails or picks. Because fighter +2 to crit rolls those are weapons that just synergize best, correct?

3. Seems like Knockdown/trips is very strong option as I see it recommended everywhere. So high Athletic investement and feats that support it?

Sure these can all work.

4. I saw high Intimidation being mentioned also a lot, though I don't yet grasp synergies here.

5. Saw some recommendtions for taking feats to get access to Sorcerer spells, mainly for Heroism, Haste or some other buffs (heard elemental damage is very big buff to Fighters) to further increase the melee aspect.
6. What multiclass options are considered the most optimized for Fighter?

The reason is the synergies are not all that obvious. A martial can be good at the Intimidation skill, in order to Demoralise and enemy to inflict the Frightened condition. Which reduces the enemies ability to defend themselves or attack. It is just that you can't have everything. If you have 18 Str then you can't start with 18 Cha, and if you have 16 Cha then your other stats aren't going to be very good.

Think I get what you want finally, just to see what poeple do now to reverse engeneer and learn why, right?

Yeah, when you try to learn to "play system" in new RPG, it's easiest to reverse engineer how already experienced people think. I can already see for example that Knockdown is the optimized way for Fighter, that picks are dual wield weapon of choice etc. You start to see patterns as in every RPG there are only handful of "top choices" in the end as statistically the extremes are always smaller than middle.

For example in 5e when you build casters you always want to get medium armor + shield proficiencies, taking multiclass/feats to get access to Shield + Absorb Elements spells, taking proficiency in CON saves to hold conentration, taking WIS prof to defend vs most debilitating spells, taking certain feats that always good (Lucky, Great Weapon Master, Sharpshooter) etc. After some time optimization just goes around same things once they are identified as "meta". So I try to find patterns in PF2e.

Also when I start new system with my friends I much more prefer to focus on trying to make a build to works best on his own, due to simple fact that at first synergy in party will not work that well, people will be experimenting, GM will be forgetting rules etc etc. So at first campaign I prefer "safer" build that is more self-suficient at first when I start new system. Not that "combos" won't be happening, but I prefer to not build character with approach that combos need to happen for build to work. Becasue if your "trigger buddy" is down/disabled in combat and that makes big chunk of your build suddenly stop working: that's not good plan.

When it comes to Knockdowns, is there any advantage of 2h vs dual wield? Also how does Fighter defenses vs spells are? Some Feats to boost it or protect against disabling effects etc.?

When it comes to Knockdowns, is there any advantage of 2h vs dual wield? Also how does Fighter defenses vs spells are? Some Feats to boost it or protect against disabling effects etc.?

Dual Weapon don't get much by going for Knockdown. Their Biggest edge is Dual Slice, and you can't do both in a same turn (and even if you could, the Multiple Attack Penalty would be too much to handle). If you are going for a 2 weapon fighter, you are mostly forgoing anything else for squeezing as much DPR as possible.

NGL, it is a good build if you don't know what the others are bringing since it is very easy to slot in (throw some generic numerical buffs at it and it is good to go), but I would rather play something else if you are playing with friends that are also willing to optimize.

If you want to get tricky with maneuvers when wielding 2 weapons, your best choice is Flurry Ranger (or Gymnast Swashbuckler, but that one plays almost the same as a free hand one).

Kyle_TheBuilder wrote:

When it comes to Knockdowns, is there any advantage of 2h vs dual wield? Also how does Fighter defenses vs spells are? Some Feats to boost it or protect against disabling effects etc.?

Dual Weapon don't get much by going for Knockdown. Their Biggest edge is Dual Slice, and you can't do both in a same turn (and even if you could, the Multiple Attack Penalty would be too much to handle). If you are going for a 2 weapon fighter, you are mostly forgoing anything else for squeezing as much DPR as possible.

I see. Then I think I would rather prefer 2H + Knockdown Fighter due to fact that CC is always good to have and knockdown seems like easy way to setup enemies not only for yourself but for others so I think it would be overal more optimize with balanced appraoch to DPR + CC. Pure DPR is fun, but not really most optimized way (same was in 5e, CC + DPR > pure DPR).

You could also consider going dual hammers for the auto prone on crit at the cost of fatal and pick spec damage.

Regardless of your class, expect to fail saves while enemies pass theirs. That said, fighter gets no legendary saves and only expert will saves (until canny acumen boosts you at 17 or an archetype feat boosts you at 12).

bet on crit are not a good idea

true strike knockdown are much more stable

Regardless of your class, expect to fail saves while enemies pass theirs. That said, fighter gets no legendary saves and only expert will saves (until canny acumen boosts you at 17 or an archetype feat boosts you at 12).

Anyway to offeset that saves for Fighthers with feats/archetypes?

gesalt wrote:

Regardless of your class, expect to fail saves while enemies pass theirs. That said, fighter gets no legendary saves and only expert will saves (until canny acumen boosts you at 17 or an archetype feat boosts you at 12).

Anyway to offeset that saves for Fighthers with feats/archetypes?

As gesalt said, Canny Acumen in your general feat slot at 15 boosts your WIll save to Master at 17. Thaumaturge Dedication gives you access to Resolve at 12 for the same effect, but takes a class feat.

Geniekin Heritages have Noble Resolve (I think it is called like that), that gives you +1 vs mental effects. That's almost the same as a +1 to all will saves.

And well, also boosting WIS, I guess.

The only other way you boost your chances at saving are the same de/buff stacking games you use for attacking. Heroism gives a status bonus to your saves, various fear effects give frightened x which lower enemy spell DC.

Certain ancestries have feats that improve saving throws. For example, Halflings have Halfling Luck, which lets a character reroll a failed save or skill check once a day. A Halfling with the Gutsy heritage can upgrade successful saves against emotion effects to critical successes, and with Irrepressible, critical failures to failures.

Orcs have Orc Superstition, which provides a +1 circumstance bonus to saves against magic. By default, it requires a Reaction, which a Fighter will often want to spend on Attack of Opportunity. However, the Level 9 follow-up Pervasive Superstition makes the effect constant.

Some classes have feats that grant bonuses to saves. For example, Sorcerers can take the Level 8 feat Bloodline Resistance to get a +1 status bonus to saves against magical effects. Other characters can access this feat at Level 16 through the Sorcerer multiclass archetype, but at that point, you'll likely have far more enticing options from your class.

Swashbucklers have Charmed Life, but that requires a Reaction.

Even with significant investment, you'll occasionally fail saves. That can be frustrating, but it can also make combats more memorable. I had a lot of fun roleplaying a character who was charmed by a ghost as he tried to convince the party to walk into the ghost's trap, and I loved seeing a fellow party member cast Wall of Stone to contain a Fighter that got confused before he could knock us all out.

Even with significant investment, you'll occasionally fail saves. That can be frustrating, but it can also make combats more memorable. I had a lot of fun roleplaying a character who was charmed by a ghost as he tried to convince the party to walk into the ghost's trap, and I loved seeing a fellow party member cast Wall of Stone to contain a Fighter that got confused before he could knock us all out.

Yeah, not long ago we had some laughs when our Champion got dominated by a vampire and I just casted Hideous Laughter on her. The vampire comanded her to protect him, but she couldn't do neither the shield block to allies nor the Paladin reaction, she was quite busy with more important stuff. Once she passed the save, I stopped sustaining and we bonked the vampire to death.

... When it comes to Knockdowns, is there any advantage of 2h vs dual wield? ...

Knockdown does not work, at all, with dual wielding weapons or with weapon and shield. It only works with a free hand or a two-handed weapon.

However, dual wielding with a weapon that has the Trip trait, like a Kukri, you could Trip followed by Double Slice.

Kyle_TheBuilder wrote:

... When it comes to Knockdowns, is there any advantage of 2h vs dual wield? ...

Knockdown does not work, at all, with dual wielding weapons or with weapon and shield. It only works with a free hand or a two-handed weapon.

However, dual wielding with a weapon that has the Trip trait, like a Kukri, you could Trip followed by Double Slice.

You can put Trip on any shield with Shield Augmentations.

Kyle_TheBuilder wrote:

... When it comes to Knockdowns, is there any advantage of 2h vs dual wield? ...

Knockdown does not work, at all, with dual wielding weapons or with weapon and shield. It only works with a free hand or a two-handed weapon.

However, dual wielding with a weapon that has the Trip trait, like a Kukri, you could Trip followed by Double Slice.

So you could lets say dual wield flail-type-weapons becasue all of them seems to have Trip and trip enemies into Double Slice combo?

Pixel Popper wrote:

Kyle_TheBuilder wrote:

... When it comes to Knockdowns, is there any advantage of 2h vs dual wield? ...

Knockdown does not work, at all, with dual wielding weapons or with weapon and shield. It only works with a free hand or a two-handed weapon.

However, dual wielding with a weapon that has the Trip trait, like a Kukri, you could Trip followed by Double Slice.

You can put Trip on any shield with Shield Augmentations.

Knockdown works fine with 2-handed weapons because of the specific override in Knockdown of not requiring a free hand.

If doing dual wield, one of the weapons will need the Trip trait.

If using sword and shield, either the weapon or the shield will need the Trip trait. If you put a Shield Augmentation on the shield to give the Trip trait, then you won't also be able to put on a weapon augmentation on the same shield.

I haven't actually played it because I thought it pushed power-playing too much, but if you are playing with a free archetype, the Fighter with a Magus Dedication, followed by the Psychic Dedication, can pump out some obscene damage and has access to decent magic. On top of just being a Fighter (which means you already have a great class chassis, high HP, dmg output, defense, saves, etc...) you can Spellstrike once per combat... a Strike paired with an Amped Imaginary Weapon for way too many d8's, or an Amped Produce Flame for a bunch of d12's with a splash fire effect.... and those are just cantrips (albeit Amped so it uses a Focus Point, if you don't Amp them the dmg is still really high, just not obscene), so you will still have access to spell slots for whatever kind of casting you desire. Take Dimensional Assault with your Hybrid Study (which works with a sword and shield btw, if you want that extra defense) and you also gain a one-action teleport strike. This build will eventually have 3 focus points but can only refocus 1 at a time, so you can't go all out all the time, but if you manage it well you'll have enough per day. And all of this comes online at lvl 6, with your spell slots coming in at lvl 8.

Or, to Spellstrike more often than once per encounter, just roll a Magus class with the Psychic Archetype. Less durable but constant nova spike damage, and Refocus will net you more focus points back.

That said, again it is a power-play build for sure, and very combat oriented as you wont have many spell slots to use for utility (but you will have some), and those spell slots will be behind actual casters. It's about the most broken synergy I have found... but it felt too dirty to try.

I haven't actually played it because I thought it pushed power-playing too much, but if you are playing with a free archetype, the Fighter with a Magus Dedication, followed by the Psychic Dedication, can pump out some obscene damage and has access to decent magic. On top of just being a Fighter (which means you already have a great class chassis, high HP, dmg output, defense, saves, etc...) you can Spellstrike once per combat... a Strike paired with an Amped Imaginary Weapon for way too many d8's, or an Amped Produce Flame for a bunch of d12's with a splash fire effect.... and those are just cantrips (albeit Amped so it uses a Focus Point, if you don't Amp them the dmg is still really high, just not obscene), so you will still have access to spell slots for whatever kind of casting you desire. Take Dimensional Assault with your Hybrid Study (which works with a sword and shield btw, if you want that extra defense) and you also gain a one-action teleport strike. This build will eventually have 3 focus points but can only refocus 1 at a time, so you can't go all out all the time, but if you manage it well you'll have enough per day. And you can do all this by around level 6 if you use your class feats on archetype feats (with free archetype as well).

Or, to Spellstrike more often than once per encounter, just roll a Magus class with the Psychic Archetype. Less durable but constant nova spike damage, and Refocus will net you more focus points back.

That said, again it is a power-play build for sure, and very combat oriented as you wont have many spell slots to use for utility (but you will have some), and those spell slots will be behind actual casters. It's about the most broken synergy I have found... but it felt too dirty to try.

That sounds nice, will have to dig on that. Free archetype seems to open way more fun options to use for players like me. I will research that build for sure. I wonder if I could somhow combine it with 2h Improved Knockdown.

So you could lets say dual wield flail-type-weapons becasue all of them seems to have Trip and trip enemies into Double Slice combo?

Yes. As long as at least one of the weapons has the Trip trait, you can use the Trip action, then follow it up with Double Slice.

You should also be able to use Knockdown if one of the weapons has the Trip trait and have one action left to do something - such as stride towards the enemy in the first place.

You couldn't do both Knockdown followed by Double Slice in the same turn because you don't have four actions. Even something like Haste only gives you a limited use action that couldn't be combined with the three you get normally. You couldn't use the action from Haste to pay for half of Double Slice for example.

Kyle_TheBuilder wrote:

Ok, I think I can see pattern that Fighter is the choice here (what a great relief after 5e Fighter being so bad), so let's shift focus then on Fighter:

The Fighter is pretty good yes and one of the best. But it is not the best in every situation. For example if you are getting significant support from your allies in terms of some of flanking, lower enemy defense from spells like Synesthesia, bonus to hit from heroism or inspired courage or just Aid, then the classes that do more base damage are better.

Yes, there are other classes that come in pretty high in the running for optimized melee weapon damage. Barbarian (especially Giant instinct), Precision Ranger, Rogue, and Swashbuckler are my short list.

Of those, Barbarian and Rogue are a bit fragile (for different reasons) and can't stay on the front lines as long as other melee characters can. And Swashbuckler is a bit unreliable at getting their high damage attack to work.

But a melee Precision Ranger is also a bonker.

Yup. I was so focused on Trip into Double Slice with the Trip trait that I glanced past the obvious dual wielding with a Trip weapon Knockdown capability...

OP, I would advise you to play your first game using the regular rules, to get a good grasp on the system, then jump into FA later.

Reason is, you will probably need to expend a lot of your focus on the breath of options your characters will have and pay less attention to the basics. Learning well the system with FA from the get-go is probably doable, but it is definitely harder. I would at least play a short 1-5 game with basic rules first.

That said, all of my groups have been playing with FA for a while now, and we don't plan to go back. It is super fun.

If you put a Shield Augmentation on the shield to give the Trip trait, then you won't also be able to put on a weapon augmentation on the same shield.

Yes, there are other classes that come in pretty high in the running for optimized melee weapon damage. Barbarian (especially Giant instinct), Precision Ranger, Rogue, and Swashbuckler are my short list.

Of those, Barbarian and Rogue are a bit fragile (for different reasons) and can't stay on the front lines as long as other melee characters can. And Swashbuckler is a bit unreliable at getting their high damage attack to work.

But a melee Precision Ranger is also a bonker.

I personally love Bow+Companion precision Ranger. Been around since day 1 and it has been one of the most consistent builds out there. With the Beastmaster release, ACs can keep at a respectable -2/-3 of your attack bonus for most levels. Only issue is that they are squishy, but as long as they are being downed bt single target effects, I would call that a win. I'm playing my second one after years of trying it (I first tried it before the APG days) and I'm having a blast for the second time. Beastmaster is just so good and fixes so much.

Both Thief and the STR based rogue are amazing as well. They have already been discussed a bit, so no point in talking about them.

As for Barbarian, I agree that they can do some disgusting stuff with a few buffs on them and a debuff on the enemy, their crits hurt like hell. I personally like Dragon an Animal most, I find Giant too squishy for my tastes.

I'm no expert on Swashbuckler, but I think the only thing holding them back a bit is the early level experience. I started a campaign recently and one of the players rolled a Battledancer Swash. The feel is smooth and the core gameplay feels powerful, but they hit for now like a wer noodle. I know from experience that stops happening once you level a bit, but still feels a bit bad.

OP, don't forget your skills. Fighters get to take three skills to legendary and 10+1 skill feats. Your top options are:

Medicine: every party needs a backup healer. The medicine skill in pf2 is the way to go for out of combat healing. Battle medicine and a free hand let's you boost poeple in combat, too. Continual recovery is a big upgrade.

Athletics: You'll want assurance to avoid a multiple attack penalty. Against weak foes, strike twice and then trip or shove. Titan wrestler is an upgrade, and you'll want underwater marauder.

Intimidate: scare your enemies to make them easier to hit. Intimidating glare, battle cry, and scare to death are upgrades.

Also consider;

Acrobatics: you can take kip up to stand up as a free action, and cat fall to avoid falling damage.

Society: An important knowledge skill, but one your spellcasting friends might forget about.

OP, don't forget your skills. Fighters get to take three skills to legendary and 10+1 skill feats. Your top options are:

Medicine: every party needs a backup healer. The medicine skill in pf2 is the way to go for out of combat healing. Battle medicine and a free hand let's you boost poeple in combat, too. Continual recovery is a big upgrade.

Athletics: You'll want assurance to avoid a multiple attack penalty. Against weak foes, strike twice and then trip or shove. Titan wrestler is an upgrade, and you'll want underwater marauder.

Intimidate: scare your enemies to make them easier to hit. Intimidating glare, battle cry, and scare to death are upgrades.

Also consider;

Acrobatics: you can take kip up to stand up as a free action, and cat fall to avoid falling damage.

Society: An important knowledge skill, but one your spellcasting friends might forget about.

Thanks. I already know that Athletics + Improved Knockdown is big tech for Fighter, but how strong in real play is Intimidation on higher levels with feat upgrades to it? Can it be really another strong reliable way to debuff enemies and buff your strikes? Or it's not consistent enough or could be too many feats to take trying to go for Improved Knockdown + Intimidation with feats?

I took at look at that Fighter + Magus dedication combo and it really looks nice. Any other dedication combos that could enchance Fighter more?

Looking at Free Archetypes, I think Fighter + Magus Dedication + Wizard free archetype should result in quite a lot of True Strikes with huge spellstrike crits.

I can list off the top of my head my Maul Crush Build. Fighter feats aren't that great, so I didn't use many.

1st: Power Attack
2nd: Champion Archetype or Sudden Charge (You can also get this with a general feat if you're a human with Natural Ambition)
4th: Knockdown
6th: Champion's reaction Paladin
8th: Furious Focus (You can retrain this to something else when you get Combat Flexibility. I usually retrain this to Ranged Reprisal Paladin Archetype Feat)
10th: Combat Reflexes (This is when the build starts to get brutal. Two reactions for AoO or AoO combined with Champion's Reprisal)
12th: Champion Archetype Feat (Aura of Courage once you're retrained to Ranged Reprisal-Fear don't bother you much at all)
14th: You can get Whirlwind Strike or Determination, but you could also pick up Champion Divine Ally: Weapon for another weapon property.
16th: You could get Overwhelming blow. But I would probably pick up retrain to Ranged Reprisal earlier. Use my lvl 9 ancestry feat for Cleric or Bard Archetype. Then use my 16th level feat for Basic Spellcasting. Try to get True Strike and Heroism at least.
18th: Maybe Savage Critical. Or Expert Spellcasting to get up to a level 6 slot. Level 6 heroism even better than level 3.
20th: Boundless Reprisals or Weapon Supremacy.

That's how I was building my character. It was easier due to Free Archetype, but can still be done with a straight fighter. It was a brutal build. Knock things down, hammer them as they stand. Buff as needed. Two uses of reaction that were both very nice.

AceofMoxen wrote:

OP, don't forget your skills. Fighters get to take three skills to legendary and 10+1 skill feats. Your top options are:

Medicine: every party needs a backup healer. The medicine skill in pf2 is the way to go for out of combat healing. Battle medicine and a free hand let's you boost poeple in combat, too. Continual recovery is a big upgrade.

Athletics: You'll want assurance to avoid a multiple attack penalty. Against weak foes, strike twice and then trip or shove. Titan wrestler is an upgrade, and you'll want underwater marauder.

Intimidate: scare your enemies to make them easier to hit. Intimidating glare, battle cry, and scare to death are upgrades.

Also consider;

Acrobatics: you can take kip up to stand up as a free action, and cat fall to avoid falling damage.

Society: An important knowledge skill, but one your spellcasting friends might forget about.

Thanks. I already know that Athletics + Improved Knockdown is big tech for Fighter, but how strong in real play is Intimidation on higher levels with feat upgrades to it? Can it be really another strong reliable way to debuff enemies and buff your strikes? Or it's not consistent enough or could be too many feats to take trying to go for Improved Knockdown + Intimidation with feats?

I took at look at that Fighter + Magus dedication combo and it really looks nice. Any other dedication combos that could enchance Fighter more?

Looking at Free Archetypes, I think Fighter + Magus Dedication + Wizard free archetype should result in quite a lot of True Strikes with huge spellstrike crits.

Fear builds on a fighter are ok. I didn't like wasting the reaction myself. You will find in 2E that even with the three action system, you still spend a lot of actions moving and positioning. You want to swing and try to get the knockdown as often as possible once you get the critical specialization for hammers.

AceofMoxen wrote:

OP, don't forget your skills. Fighters get to take three skills to legendary and 10+1 skill feats. Your top options are:

Medicine: every party needs a backup healer. The medicine skill in pf2 is the way to go for out of combat healing. Battle medicine and a free hand let's you boost poeple in combat, too. Continual recovery is a big upgrade.

Athletics: You'll want assurance to avoid a multiple attack penalty. Against weak foes, strike twice and then trip or shove. Titan wrestler is an upgrade, and you'll want underwater marauder.

Intimidate: scare your enemies to make them easier to hit. Intimidating glare, battle cry, and scare to death are upgrades.

Also consider;

Acrobatics: you can take kip up to stand up as a free action, and cat fall to avoid falling damage.

Society: An important knowledge skill, but one your spellcasting friends might forget about.

Thanks. I already know that Athletics + Improved Knockdown is big tech for Fighter, but how strong in real play is Intimidation on higher levels with feat upgrades to it? Can it be really another strong reliable way to debuff enemies and buff your strikes? Or it's not consistent enough or could be too many feats to take trying to go for Improved Knockdown + Intimidation with feats?

I took at look at that Fighter + Magus dedication combo and it really looks nice. Any other dedication combos that could enchance Fighter more?

Looking at Free Archetypes, I think Fighter + Magus Dedication + Wizard free archetype should result in quite a lot of True Strikes with huge spellstrike crits.

Spellstrike once per minute isn't as good as Paladin Champion's Reaction in my opinion. If you do like a big crit or hit with a cantrip, you might like it. It's basically once per battle Spellstrike.

As far as skills go, the following are optimal:

Athletics to Legendary
Acrobatics at least to Master so you can take Kip Up. You get power from knocking things down, you don't want to get knocked down with no answer.

After that your skills are open, though I do like to take Stealth since you can stealth in heavy armor now with no real reduction in ability.

Then go by what your group may need or what you want. You end up with a lot of skills between background and ancestry feats.

There are a few ways to route the fake champion build too. Meteor hammer for additional reach. Skipping power attack to priortize sudden charge. Blind fight, lay on hands or blade ally in place of furious focus. Switching to flickmace+shield and taking shield ally at 8, quick shield block at 9, paragon guard at 12 and stance savant at 14. It's pretty flexible.

I can list off the top of my head my Maul Crush Build. Fighter feats aren't that great, so I didn't use many.

1st: Power Attack
2nd: Champion Archetype or Sudden Charge (You can also get this with a general feat if you're a human with Natural Ambition)
4th: Knockdown
6th: Champion's reaction Paladin
8th: Furious Focus (You can retrain this to something else when you get Combat Flexibility. I usually retrain this to Ranged Reprisal Paladin Archetype Feat)
10th: Combat Reflexes (This is when the build starts to get brutal. Two reactions for AoO or AoO combined with Champion's Reprisal)
12th: Champion Archetype Feat (Aura of Courage once you're retrained to Ranged Reprisal-Fear don't bother you much at all)
14th: You can get Whirlwind Strike or Determination, but you could also pick up Champion Divine Ally: Weapon for another weapon property.
16th: You could get Overwhelming blow. But I would probably pick up retrain to Ranged Reprisal earlier. Use my lvl 9 ancestry feat for Cleric or Bard Archetype. Then use my 16th level feat for Basic Spellcasting. Try to get True Strike and Heroism at least.
18th: Maybe Savage Critical. Or Expert Spellcasting to get up to a level 6 slot. Level 6 heroism even better than level 3.
20th: Boundless Reprisals or Weapon Supremacy.

That's how I was building my character. It was easier due to Free Archetype, but can still be done with a straight fighter. It was a brutal build. Knock things down, hammer them as they stand. Buff as needed. Two uses of reaction that were both very nice.

Thank you. That would actually make for really nice Crusader build! Couple questions about it:

1. How really useful was Power Attack here in real play?
2. Why Ranged Reprisal Paladin?
3. I totally don't understand level 16th explanation what you pick here. Also using our lvl 9 ancestry feat on level 16 for Cleric or Bard? And why those classes?
4. Why not taking Improved Knockdown is you already have Knockdown?

Also what would be best Ancestry for Fighter? I see that Lizardman have nice STR, WIS and Free (Con?) ability boosts. Orc has STR and Free (Con/WIS?). Same for Automaton I guess and couple more.

The Ancestry depends on whatever Ancestry feats you like. They now allow any ancestry the option of two free boosts.

The Ancestry depends on whatever Ancestry feats you like. They now allow any ancestry the option of two free boosts.

Since I am still new to PF, could you point me out where it says that? I might have missed it.