Unchained Fighter


Homebrew and House Rules

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Because there is no such thing as too much publicity! XD

Lemmy's Revised Fighter!

Includes 4 New Archetypes:

Battle Dynamo (under construction) - A Fighter who gets stronger as battles goes on.
Fist Fighter - A unarmed combat specialist
Paragon - For those who want to make their hero a superhero!
Warlord - For those who prefer to lead, rather than follow! Show those spoony Bards how a real warrior leads an army!

And a bunch of new feats!

And since you enjoy playing with weapons, try this homebrew as well and create your very own custom arsenal:

Lemmy's Custom Weapon Generation System!


Lemmy, why do the Paragon powers Inspiring Presence & Mightier Than A Titan retroactively replace base abilities? These ability swaps should be called out at the level at which they first lose them.

Also, why does the Faster Than A Speeding Arrow ability have to replace Relentless? Given all their other powers, immunity to exhaustion, sleep and bleed effects makes more sense thematically than does +20 ft land movement.


Would it be reasonable to give Fighter proficiency with all weapons (simple, martial, exotic), armor, and shields sometime down the line? Perhaps also Improved Unarmed Strike, Catch Off-Guard, and Throw Anything, although these are a slight bit more of a stretch.


Arakhor wrote:
Lemmy, why do the Paragon powers Inspiring Presence & Mightier Than A Titan retroactively replace base abilities? These ability swaps should be called out at the level at which they first lose them.

They are called at the levels where they gain the new abilities. Which are levels where I conside them to be balanced.

Arakhor wrote:
Also, why does the Faster Than A Speeding Arrow ability have to replace Relentless? Given all their other powers, immunity to exhaustion, sleep and bleed effects makes more sense thematically than does +20 ft land movement.

True... While ideally every archetype ability would be exactly as good as the ability they are replacing, I don't think that's very important... What is important is that the archetype as a whole be balanced to the base class as a whole. After all, in the end, the abilities lost and gained don't change, no matter what is replaced by what...

To put it in a simpler way, if a class has class features A, B and C and a archetype replaces them with class features X, Y and Z, what matters is not that A=X, B=Y and C=Z, but that A+B+C=X+Y+Z.


I wasn't making a point about the balance, just that they are apparently retroactively removing abilities. Does the Paragon lose his Weapon Training bonuses or his Fighting Style feats when he gains those Paragon abilities, or did he never have them in the first place? I assume it's the second, but it's not obvious.


Arakhor wrote:
I wasn't making a point about the balance, just that they are apparently retroactively removing abilities. Does the Paragon lose his Weapon Training bonuses or his Fighting Style feats when he gains those Paragon abilities, or did he never have them in the first place? I assume it's the second, but it's not obvious.

The same thing happens in a few Paizo archetypes, actually... Though I can't point out which ones because there are so many g*$#@~n archetypes nowadays, I can't be bothered to remember more than the 6 or so that are actually worth reading...

But yes, it's the 2nd case. They don't retroactively lose the ability, they just never get it in the first place.


My Self wrote:
Would it be reasonable to give Fighter proficiency with all weapons (simple, martial, exotic), armor, and shields sometime down the line? Perhaps also Improved Unarmed Strike, Catch Off-Guard, and Throw Anything, although these are a slight bit more of a stretch.

From my homebrew fighter:

Kirthfinder, Chapter 3 wrote:

Improved Weapon Aptitude (Ex): At 10th level, you gain Exotic proficiency with all weapons and shields. Even if exposed to a totally unfamiliar weapon from a completely different technology level, you can become proficient with it after handling it for one round. You also gain Catch Off Guard as a bonus feat.

In addition, you have the ability to recall the vital statistics and important quirks of practically all known commercially available weapons. This includes, but is not limited to, their general level of reliability as well as all vital statistics—material composition, ammunition capacity, caliber, possible outfitted accessories, etc.


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So, I tidied up Rugged, bulked up Sterner Stuff, rewrote Resilience and shifted a couple of abilities around. Other than that, I think I'm probably done now.

Class Table:
1st: Martial Expertise, Martial Prowess +1
2nd: Bonus feat, Versatility, Bravery (1 step)
3rd: Rugged (Endurance), Iron Skin (1/–)
4th: Bonus feat, Recovery (1/day), Sterner Stuff I
5th: Strategist (10 ft), Martial Prowess +2
6th: Bonus feat, Backbrother, Bravery (2 steps), Versatility (1/day)
7th: Bladestorm (magic), Rugged (Diehard), Iron Skin (2/–)
8th: Bonus feat, Recovery (2/day), Sterner Stuff II
9th: Defiance, Strategist (15 ft), Martial Prowess +3
10th: Bonus feat, Indomitable Will (once), Bravery (3 steps), Versatility (2/day)
11th: Leadership, Rugged (Strong Soul), Iron Skin (3/–)
12th: Bonus feat, Bladestorm (material), Recovery (3/day), Sterner Stuff III
13th: Tactical Aid, Strategist (20 ft), Martial Prowess +4
14th: Bonus feat, Skill Mastery, Bravery (immunity), Versatility (3/day)
15th: Indomitable Will (ongoing), Rugged (Stubborn Flesh), Iron Skin (4/–)
16th: Bonus feat, Recovery (4/day), Sterner Stuff IV
17th: Bladestorm (adamantine), Master Strategist (25 ft), Martial Prowess +5
18th: Bonus feat, Defy Death's Door, Versatility (4/day)
19th: Resilience, Iron Skin (5/–)
20th: Bonus feat, Recovery (5/day), Weapon Mastery

Reduced Table:
1st: Martial Expertise, Martial Prowess (1 +1/4 levels)
2nd: Versatility, Bravery (1 step, +1 per 4 levels)
3rd: Rugged I, Iron Skin (DR 1/–, +1 per 4 levels)
4th: Recovery (1/day per 4 levels), Sterner Stuff I
5th: Strategist (10 ft +5 ft per 4 levels)
6th: Backbrother, Versatility (1/day)
7th: Bladestorm (magic), Rugged II, Iron Skin (heavy)
8th: Sterner Stuff II
9th: Defiance
10th: Indomitable Will (once)
11th: Leadership, Rugged III
12th: Bladestorm (material), Sterner Stuff III
13th: Tactical Aid
14th: Skill Mastery, Bravery (immunity)
15th: Indomitable Will (ongoing), Rugged IV
16th: Sterner Stuff IV
17th: Bladestorm (adamantine), Master Strategist
18th: Defy Death's Door
19th: Resilience
20th: Weapon Mastery

Skills & Saves:
HD: d10; BAB: Good; Saves: Fort (Good), Reflex/Will (Poor).
Class Skills: The fighter's class skills are Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (dungeoneering, engineering, nobility) (Int), Perception (Wis), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Survival (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis) and Swim (Str). Skill Ranks Per Level: 4 + Int modifier.

Class Abilities:
Martial Expertise: At 1st-level, the fighter gains Combat Expertise as a bonus feat and may count his Int as 13 for the purpose of selecting combat feats when gaining a new fighter level. The fighter may apply weapon-specific feats to whole weapon groups instead (e.g. Weapon Focus: Heavy Blades).
Martial Prowess (Ex): At 1st-level, the fighter gains a +1 insight bonus to all attacks, weapon damage, CMB, and CMD whilst wielding a weapon with which he is proficient and may modify his armour's AC, max Dex bonus and check penalty by 1. These modifiers each increase by 1 at 5th, 9th, 13th and 17th-level.
Bonus feat: At 2nd-level and at every even level thereafter, a fighter gains a bonus feat, which must be selected from those listed as Combat Feats and for which he meets the prerequisites.
Versatility: At 2nd-level, a fighter may spend 15 minutes of preparation each morning to exchange a number of his bonus combat feats (up to to his Martial Prowess bonus) for another combat feat for which he also meets the prerequisites. The old feat cannot be one that is was being used as a prerequisite for another feat, prestige class, or other ability. At 6th-level, once per day for one minute, he may re-prepare his combat feats. At 10th, he can do this as a full-round action 2/day, at 14th, as a standard action 3/day, and at 18th-level, as a move action 4/day.
Bravery (Ex): At 2nd-level, the fighter is immune to effects that cause the shaken condition. For more severe fear, the effect is lessened by one step (cowering -> panicked -> frightened -> shaken). The severity is reduced by two steps at 6th, by three steps at 10th, and 14th-level, he is immune to [fear] effects.
Rugged (Ex): At 3rd-level, the fighter gains Endurance and (at 7th) Diehard, both as bonus feats. At 3rd-level, he may add his Martial Prowess as an insight bonus to all saves vs. any Bravery and Sterner Stuff conditions to which he is not immune, including (at 11th) all saves vs. death effects, negative energy, energy drain, and ability damage or drain, as well as saves made to remove negative levels. At 15th-level, this extends to all saves vs. paralysis, petrification and polymorph effects, including disintegration. If a fighter would not normally be granted a saving throw versus any of these effects, he may make one at DC (15 + trap's CR or ½ originator's HD).
Iron Skin (Ex): At 3rd-level, his speed is not reduced whilst wearing medium armour, and at 7th-level, this extends to heavy armour as well. In addition, whilst wearing medium or heavy armour, the fighter gains DR 1/–. This reduction increases by 1 each time at 7th, 11th, 15th and 19th-level.
Recovery: At 4th-level, a fighter may take a standard action once per day to instantly heal 2 hp per fighter level, end all bleeding effects and prompt a new save against any condition to which his Rugged class ability applies. He may recover like this once more per day at 8th, 12th, 16th and 20th-level.
Sterner Stuff (Ex): At 4th-level, the fighter's constant exposure to death and suffering renders him immune to the fatigued and sickened conditions and causes him to become merely sickened or fatigued if he would otherwise be nauseated or exhausted. At 12th-level, he becomes immune to nausea and exhaustion. At 8th-level, he becomes resistant to poison and disease, only suffering half the usual attribute losses (rounding up), and at 16th-level, he becomes immune to both magical and mundane poisons and diseases.
Strategist (Ex): At 5th-level, the fighter gains Combat Reflexes as a bonus feat. In addition, he can choose to reduce his movement speed by 5 ft. for one round in order to extend his threatened area by 5 ft. At 9th, 13th and 17th-level, he can trade an additional 5 ft. (up to his maximum movement speed). Enemies who have not seen the fighter use this ability are not necessarily aware of it.
Backbrother: At 6th-level, if a fighter has any combat feats which are also teamwork feats, he may treat his allies as also possessing those feats for determining whether he gains effect from them, though his allies gain no effects unless they too have those feats. All tactical conditions must be met at the time.
Bladestorm (Ex): At 7th-level, a fighter can make two attacks as a standard action, but all attacks this round suffer a -2 penalty. In addition, all weapon attacks that the fighter makes are considered to be magical for the purposes of bypassing damage reduction. At 12th-level, a fighter can make three attacks as a standard action, but all attacks this round suffer a -4 penalty. In addition, all weapon attacks that the fighter makes are considered to bypass magic, silver or cold iron damage reduction. At 17th-level, a fighter can make four attacks as a standard action, but all attacks this round suffer a -6 penalty. In addition, all weapon attacks that the fighter makes are considered to bypass magic, silver, cold iron or adamantine damage reduction.
Defiance (Ex): At 9th-level, a fighter is sufficiently doughty that he can escape unharmed from certain assaults that would fell a lesser man. If he makes a successful Fortitude saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, he instead takes no damage. Defiance can be used only if the fighter is wearing armour and a helpless fighter does not gain the benefit of defiance.
Leadership: At 11th-level, a fighter gains Leadership as a bonus feat. Typically, the followers attracted by this feat are warriors, drawn to serve the fighter as part of a private standing army. If the fighter already has the Leadership feat, he gains a +4 insight bonus to his Leadership score instead. Alternatively, the fighter may gain a roc as an animal companion (with his effective druid level equal to his fighter level -3) or may attract a giant eagle, griffon or pegasus as a 6th, 8th or 6th-level cohort respectively, following the normal rules for monster cohorts.
Tactical Aid (Ex): At 13th-level, a fighter can provide tactical advice on the field. As a move action, the fighter can provide tactical aid to either all allies or himself within 30 feet and line of sight of his position. He may provide this bonus to both at once, but it becomes a standard action instead. This aid provides a morale bonus to attack or dodge bonus to AC (fighter’s choice) equal to his Intelligence bonus (minimum +1) and lasts for a number of rounds equal to one-half his class level, rounded down.
Indomitable Will (Ex): At 10th-level, a fighter may add his Martial Prowess bonus to all saves vs. charms and compulsions and if he fails a save against such an effect, he may re-attempt the save the following round, but only once per effect. At 15th-level, a fighter under an ongoing [mind-affecting] effect (of any type) may attempt an additional Will save each round to end the effect. If the effect does not normally allow a save, the fighter gains a Will save (DC 25) to end the effect.
Skill Mastery: At 14th-level, a fighter may Take 15 on Perception and Sense Motive checks, even if he is rushed or stressed, on Bluff checks used to feint in combat and on Initiative checks in any combat in which he was not initially surprised. If he does so, he must choose to do this instead of rolling normally.
Master Strategist (Ex): At 17th-level, as a free action, the fighter can designate any portion of his threatened area as difficult terrain. This imposes the fighter's level as a penalty on all hostile Acrobatics and Fly checks made within the area.
Defy Death's Door: At 18th-level, a fighter can survive the worst battlefields imaginable. He automatically passes saves versus death from massive damage and does not die unless his negative hit points equal double his Constitution score.
Resilience: At 19th-level, a fighter does not automatically fail saving throws on a 1. In addition, he may apply his Martial Prowess as an insight bonus to all Fortitude and Will saves.
Weapon Mastery (Ex): At 20th-level, the fighter cannot be disarmed and all weapon attacks deal piercing, bludgeoning and slashing damage, no matter what weapon he is wielding. Any weapons for which the fighter has selected Improved Critical automatically confirm all critical threats and have a threat range of 18-20 (x3), unless better.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Nice. Covers just about every area a fighter could wish for.

Immunity to poisons AND disease is a little extreme for me, but not completely out of place. I personally would just have juiced his saves against them more, which provides effective immunity unless they are no-save, but always with that possibility of rolling a '1'.

==Aelryinth


nicholas storm wrote:


Skills - change to 4+INT per level

if you will give this to a fighter class, then you should make the same for all those who get +2, also add +2 to every class to balance this move.

Fighter is one of the most (if not the most) versatile class in the whole game, it can easily be the most powerful class at all, making this change will unbalance the power of the other ones. yes just moving the skill ranks it gets could break this game (wich is already broken at higher levels 12th+)


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Juda de Kerioth wrote:
nicholas storm wrote:


Skills - change to 4+INT per level

if you will give this to a fighter class, then you should make the same for all those who get +2, also add +2 to every class to balance this move.

Fighter is one of the most (if not the most) versatile class in the whole game, it can easily be the most powerful class at all, making this change will unbalance the power of the other ones. yes just moving the skill ranks it gets could break this game (wich is already broken at higher levels 12th+)

Versatile?

Where you typed in "Fighter", I think you mean "Wizard". Or perhaps "Cleric". Maybe you were referring to "Druid"? Oh! I see: "Witch"! No, wait, how about "Shaman"?

Long story short, Fighters cannot re-prepare their feats every day. They can't break the world in half or get +20 to a check or fly under their own power simply by snapping their fingers. Fighters can't conjure up people who can do everything a Fighter can do with a snap of their fingers. This sort of Unchained Fighter seems to be balanced against caster classes, not other martial classes.

Plus, for versatility, Brawler still has regular Fighter beat, because it can re-prepare its feats, or rather "cast" any of them on the fly.

As for the +2 skills, I've seen other people say that any non INT-focused classes with 2+INT skill ranks a level should get 4+INT instead. Or more specifically, any non-casting 2+INT skill rank classes should have 4+INT ranks. That sounds pretty reasonable.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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Not counting NPC classes, how many classes are there that gain no magical, su, sp or other magic-like class abilities?

Answer: 1. The Fighter. Even the Rogue can gain spell-likes. Every cavalier can get a magical animal bond. Every barb gets supernatural rage.

And you seriously think this absolutely no-magic class has broken power because it NEVER studies magic, and consider giving it 4 skill points (= to a barbarian) too much? Fighters, the Olympians of martial combat?

Feh.

==Aelryinth


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Juda de Kerioth wrote:
nicholas storm wrote:
Skills - change to 4+INT per level

if you will give this to a fighter class, then you should make the same for all those who get +2, also add +2 to every class to balance this move.

Fighter is one of the most (if not the most) versatile class in the whole game, it can easily be the most powerful class at all, making this change will unbalance the power of the other ones. yes just moving the skill ranks it gets could break this game (wich is already broken at higher levels 12th+)

This is so wrong it's hilarious!

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

2 people marked this as a favorite.

It's probably just a troll, but yeah, that IS pretty funny.

==Aelryinth


I can only assume Poe's Law


I'm guessing it's either trolling or sarcasm too... But it's pretty funny.


Aelryinth wrote:

Nice. Covers just about every area a fighter could wish for.

Immunity to poisons AND disease is a little extreme for me, but not completely out of place. I personally would just have juiced his saves against them more, which provides effective immunity unless they are no-save, but always with that possibility of rolling a '1'.

Thank you, but you did keep saying that Resilience was a 19th-level ability, something else was 16th etc. I did consider having the 16th-level Sterner Stuff just do minimum damage, rather than none at all, but I thought that at that point, that would be either a meaningless distinction and/or a pointless diversion, so I just went with the simpler option.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

well, considering that paladins get immunity to disease at level 2, and periapts vs poison and disease are 10k or so, I don't really have much reason to complain.

It's useful and it works. Monks can get the same sort of thing levels sooner, so it is definitely not out of place.

==Aelryinth


yeah, sorry for the delay :3 i was trolling about it giving a fighter 4 skill point is a must, also perception and why not, the option to chose if he will get athletics skills or acrobatics skills as class skills (if he will be a dex build or str build) or why not, botuh?

Also, the minimum number of ranks per level should be 4 not 2 (clerics, wizards, paladins... man c´mon!!)

the unchainned new reduced skills was a good idea, but again, they are too constricted. so, i use this houserule version of skills:

Talent Skills
New Skill
Acrobatics (acrobatics, escape artist, fly)
Athletics (jump, climb, swim)
Influence (bluff, diplomacy, intimidate)
Perception (perception, sense motive)
Stealth (stealth)

Techniques Skills (-2 penalties with untrained checks)
New Skill
Finesse (disable device, sleight of hand)
Handle Animal (handle animal, ride)
Heal (heal)
Linguistic (lore, linguistics)
Performance (artistry, disguise, perform)
Profession (craft, profession, appraise with related profession)
Survival (Survival)

Knowledges (cannot be performed without training)
New Skill
Arcana (Arcana)
Engineering (engineering )
Nature (nature, geography)
Religion (planes, religion)
Society (history, local, nobility)
Spellcraft (spellcraft)
Underdark (dungeoneering,)
Use Magic Device (Use Magic Device)

I have the new class skills lists with this variants, every class keeps their regular skill numbers, but, i added skill tricks from 3.5 and skill unlocks at 2 skill point cost too

this way a 2 ranks per level works pretty well.


So this happened:

Weapon Master's Handbook wrote:

Versatile Training (Ex): The fighter can use his base

attack bonus in place of his ranks in two skills of his choice
that are associated with the fighter weapon group he has
chosen with this option (see below). The fighter need not
be wielding an associated weapon to use this option. When
using versatile training, the fighter substitutes his total
base attack bonus (including his
base attack bonus gained through
levels in other classes) for his ranks
in these skills, but adds the skill’s usual
ability score modifier and any other bonuses
or penalties that would modify those skills. Once
the skills have been selected, they cannot be changed and
the fighter can immediately retrain all of his skill ranks in
the selected skills at no additional cost in money
or time. In addition, the fighter adds
all skills chosen with this
option to his list of class
skills. A fighter can choose
this option up to two times.
The Bluff and Intimidate
skills are associated with all fighter
weapon groups. The various fighter
weapon groups also have the
following associated skills: axes
(Climb, Survival), bows (Knowledge
[engineering], Perception), close
(Sense Motive, Stealth), crossbows
(Perception, Stealth), double
(Acrobatics, Sense
Motive), firearms
(Perception, Sleight of
Hand), flails (Acrobatics,
Sleight of Hand), hammers
(Diplomacy, Ride), heavy
blades (Diplomacy, Ride), light blades
(Diplomacy, Sleight of Hand), monk (Acrobatics,
Escape Artist), natural (Climb, Fly, Swim), polearms
(Diplomacy, Sense Motive), siege engines (Disable
Device, Profession [driver]), spears (Handle Animal,
Ride), and thrown (Acrobatics, Perception).

Plus plenty more, I just don't wanna quote too much.


So, what is that? An archetype replacement, feat or what?


Alternate Weapon Training options, they allow you to forgo choosing a second weapon group, or third, in exchange you get a choice of a bunch of actual good abilities. Often these abilities function based on your overall biggest bonus from Weapon Training. Some of them give you feats, some of them other useful abilities.
It is accessible with a feat, once you hit 5th level, and once every five levels.
The Weapon Master archetype can take that feat at 4 th level, and at any subsequent level as a bonus feat. There are some restrictions, since one of them gives you the entire Weapon Focus/Specialization chain, for an entire Weapon group.

Someone is listening.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Adding +3 abilities fighters should already have doesn't fix the class, unfortunately.

As above, one of the WT swap outs adds Bravery to all mind-affecting saves.

Well, duh. Lose a weapon training group to still not have the equiv of a Good Will Save.

Or look at Versatile training. Basically, it's 2 swaps that give you 4 skill points in 4 specific skills. Now, keep in mind you're probably only going to have ONE Weapon group at this point, so the skills are going to be very specific and not of your choice. For instance, if you're a Heavy Blades (greatsword or sword and board) guy, your skills are Bluff, Intimidate, Diplomacy and Ride.

So, you give up 2 class abilities to get the skill points of a Ranger, but from a crappier short list. Instad of just giving the fighter more skill points and skills because he has no magic!

It's abilities like this that should be 'fighter bonus feats', not swap outs of a class ability that nobody cares about.

It's Nice that they are listening, but they are still waaay undershooting class balance.

==Aelryinith

Scarab Sages

The nice thing about the advanced weapon training is that in addition to taking them as replacements for extra groups, you can also take them as feats. For the weapon master fighter you an take it as a bonus feat.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Imbicatus wrote:
The nice thing about the advanced weapon training is that in addition to taking them as replacements for extra groups, you can also take them as feats. For the weapon master fighter you an take it as a bonus feat.

You mean only one archetype can take it as a fighter bonus feat? (presumably because he can't give up a weapon group).

Or are you saying they have to give up a GENERAL feat, but can take extra Weapon Training swapouts that way?

(sighs)

==Aelryinth


Aelryinth wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
The nice thing about the advanced weapon training is that in addition to taking them as replacements for extra groups, you can also take them as feats. For the weapon master fighter you an take it as a bonus feat.

You mean only one archetype can take it as a fighter bonus feat? (presumably because he can't give up a weapon group).

Or are you saying they have to give up a GENERAL feat, but can take extra Weapon Training swapouts that way?

(sighs)

==Aelryinth

Weapon Master Fighters can, starting at 4th level, take the feat as either a bonus feat or general feat.

Everyone Else is limited to taking the feat once every 5 levels, in addition to their other weapon groups.

There are also Magic Item Mastery feats that allow you to manipluate the magic of an item whose construction requirements come from x-school to gain a utility ability (like dispel or fly) a certain number of times per day. Requires investment into UMD.

There are also more feats like Weapon Mastery feats that give even more very good options.

It's a very good book.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

oh, I believe it's a good book.

I just find it interesting that only Weapon Master Fighters can take multiples of the feat...basically getting paid twice for not having extra weapon groups.

Meh.

==Aelryinth

Scarab Sages

Other fighters can take the feat multiple times, they are just limited to once per five levels. The weapon master doesn't have that restriction.


I don't think you're really being fair to the Advanced Weapon Training abilities Aelryinth. Armed Bravery for example let's you add your bonus from Bravery to all Will saves as long as you're wielding a weapon from your chosen weapon group. Sure, early on it doesn't seem like any great shakes (if you get it at the earliest possible opportunity by taking the Advanced Weapon Training feat at 5th level), but by 20th level your only 1 point behind a true "good" save. True not all the options are equally good, Weapon Specialist is one that I personally can't see being taken often outside specific character concepts. This is also just the first foray into that design space. If it is met with wide enough acceptance I wouldn't be surprised if they come up with more Advanced Weapon Training abilities and other ways of giving martial classes nice things.

Heck, I'm looking forward to the community taking this design space and running with it. I especially hope the folks involved in the Wayfinder project go nuts with the design spaces introduced in Weapon Master's Handbook with more weapon styles, weapon mastery feats, Advanced Weapon Training abilities, weapon tricks, and more. I could see several issues of the e-zine covering these topics and still barely scratching the surface of what could be done.


There's also one that works on Reflex throws.


master_marshmallow wrote:
There's also one that works on Reflex throws.

That said, the Advanced Weapon Training options existing now exacerbate a serious design flaw in the fighter. His weapon training comes on too late. Other classes have their class abilities improving hit and damage functional to some extent at first level. Fighter? No. These options damn near fix the problems the internet has with the class, but this major flaw is more and more apparent.

It is perhaps asked that the fighter takes the weapon focus tree starting at first level to compensate for that flaw? In any case, a truly Unchained fighter would see the asymmetry corrected, and these options much more readily available. Or there are no fighters except Weapon Master fighters.

Scarab Sages

There is also one that allows the fighter to let his weapon be damaged instead of himself or an adjacent ally being killed/unconcious.


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I still think that, if we're going to unchain the fighter, then UNCHAIN him. Scrap all the piddly little bravery bonuses, weapon training bonuses (but only with some weapons, for some reason), armor training bonuses, and bravery that sometimes applies to Will saves but only on alternate Wednesdays, etc.

Then, if you still want him to have bigger numbers, fine, roll them all together into one bonus that applies to all that crap, and that scales with level. And give him real class features every other level.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

And a damage bonus at level one!!!

======================
Here's the whole problem with this weapon training thing:

Weapon Master fighters get to spend their feats and bonus feats on Weapon Training stuff. Great! They get Weapon Training at level 3, so nice and early.
With class retraining, they can even take their level 1-2 fighter feats and retrain them to weapon feats if they like!
So, in the end, they can quickly (by level 3) start getting these very nice feats, and they can take one EVERY SINGLE LEVEL for the rest of their careers, if they are so inclined.
Groovy. Snazzy. Lots of uber abilities, I'm sold!

NORMAL fighters - Get one every 5 levels, AND if they swap out weapon training II-IV.
Think about that.
That means you get your First shot if you burn a general feat at level 5.
THEN...you have to wait until level 9, when you can give up WT II for another one.
Hey, at 10th level, you finally get your 3rd. Don't you feel special?
Meanwhile, the Weapon Master has TEN of these feats, AND he got other things in return for giving up his WT II-IV.

You get 4 more of them...at levels 13, 15, 17, and 20. Good luck EVER getting the last 2. Most AP's don't go that high.

So, a normal fighter not only does not get these things early, where they'd help most, but for most of his career (pre-9th) he has AT BEST 1 of these feats.
Yeah, who thought this up?
=================

==Aelryinth


So, anyone with good ideas for Adventuring and Social class features for fighters? Recently I've begun to think that skill points should be allotted something like this...

+2 for being a d20 creature (duh),
+2 for being a player character class,
+2 for having no spell slots as a class feature,
+2 for being designed as a skill-based class.

This way those players who complain that there are too less skill points will be relieved a little, even more so who play non/less-magical classes and have to stick to skills for meaningful in-universe interaction.


Would you define rangers and bards as being skill-based?

Scarab Sages

Bards, Inquisitors, Investigators, Hunters, and Mesmerists have 3/4 casting and 6 skills per level, and scaling class features that enhance skills. Spell casting and skills are clearly not competing features.


Kirth Gersen wrote:

I still think that, if we're going to unchain the fighter, then UNCHAIN him. Scrap all the piddly little bravery bonuses, weapon training bonuses (but only with some weapons, for some reason), armor training bonuses, and bravery that sometimes applies to Will saves but only on alternate Wednesdays, etc.

Then, if you still want him to have bigger numbers, fine, roll them all together into one bonus that applies to all that crap, and that scales with level. And give him real class features every other level.

You mean something like this?

(Yes, I've been a busy bee, thinking about stuff.)


Don't like the "draw aggro" thing. I'd rather the fighter be able to intercept enemies, rather than having the enemies suddenly forget what they were doing and randomly attack him. I'd also like to see more higher-level stuff that potentially applies outside of his immediate vicinity.


Kirth Gersen wrote:
Don't like the "draw aggro" thing. I'd rather the fighter be able to intercept enemies, rather than having the enemies suddenly forget what they were doing and randomly attack him. I'd also like to see more higher-level stuff that potentially applies outside of his immediate vicinity.

Intercept how? Do you want him to just be able to move next to an enemy when they attack an ally? Do you want him to be able to take the attacks for that ally (such as In Harm's Way?) Because there are Combat Arts that do just that. I mean, I could allow Movement Tactics to provide the benefit of being able to move to an ally, and then the Fighter can use Combat Arts such as Intercept, or even use Bodyguard/In Harm's Way to do just that.

I'm also unclear as to what sort of "higher-level stuff that applies outside of his immediate vicinity" means. Are you asking for more ranged combat options at higher levels of play, or are you asking for some of the lower level options to have a better range scale?


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
I'm also unclear as to what sort of "higher-level stuff that applies outside of his immediate vicinity" means. Are you asking for more ranged combat options at higher levels of play, or are you asking for some of the lower level options to have a better range scale?

Neither. A bowshot is still immediate vicinity. Clerics and wizards, at levels 9+, can influence events occurring miles or even worlds away from their location. High-level fighters should have some ability to do so as well -- whether through commanding armies or some other (non-spell) mechanic.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Imbicatus wrote:
Bards, Inquisitors, Investigators, Hunters, and Mesmerists have 3/4 casting and 6 skills per level, and scaling class features that enhance skills. Spell casting and skills are clearly not competing features.

He's noting that they SHOULD BE.

Skills are definitely not allotted evenly in PF. Rangers having more skills then fighters, and Bards getting more skills and skill bonuses then Rogues is definitely not 'even'.

Note that while Barbs don't get spells, they do get supernatural abilities and are classically 'uneducated'.

If you took ALL of the bard's skill based stuff away...you'd still have a really good class. It doesn't need to fill both roles.

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Lucas Yew wrote:

So, anyone with good ideas for Adventuring and Social class features for fighters? Recently I've begun to think that skill points should be allotted something like this...

+2 for being a d20 creature (duh),
+2 for being a player character class,
+2 for having no spell slots as a class feature,
+2 for being designed as a skill-based class.

This way those players who complain that there are too less skill points will be relieved a little, even more so who play non/less-magical classes and have to stick to skills for meaningful in-universe interaction.

Eh.

2 base points.
+2 for being a PC.
-2 if spellcaster.
+2 if no magical Class abilities.
+2 if skill-based or skill-intensive class, and least/no spellcasting.

Which would drop Bards, Inqs and Hunters to a more appropriate 4 skill points, keep major spellcasters at 2 pts, keep Rogues at 8, lift Fighters to 6, and barbs and Rangers at 4. Investigators would end up with 6.

==Aelryinth


Hmm, so I was quite lenient to the casters more than I thought, huh? I'd better reconsider this more carefully... And thanks for the suggestions!

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

You could also bias in terms of not having full BAB, not having martial weapon prof and not having heavy/medium armor proficiency.

But if you do that, you have to drop the 2 base points down to 0. You'd also need a penalty for being a major spellcaster (20 levels of casting), and get rid of the 'skill based class bonus', since it would be replaced by 'less combat trained class focus'.

Note that Commoners should end up same as Nobles in this system, and Experts should have only 6 skill points since they aren't PC's.

==Aelryinth


Kirth Gersen wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
I'm also unclear as to what sort of "higher-level stuff that applies outside of his immediate vicinity" means. Are you asking for more ranged combat options at higher levels of play, or are you asking for some of the lower level options to have a better range scale?
Neither. A bowshot is still immediate vicinity. Clerics and wizards, at levels 9+, can influence events occurring miles or even worlds away from their location. High-level fighters should have some ability to do so as well -- whether through commanding armies or some other (non-spell) mechanic.

Last I checked, Barbarians, Rangers, Paladins and similarly-powered Martials don't have such abilities. Not even 6-level Spellcasters really have that sort of power.

I'm fine with giving Fighters unique (and different) abilities, as well as out-of-combat utility, and my version of the Fighter does just that, with the addition of Combat Arts, Movement Tactics, Veteran's Training, etc. But asking them to be as strong as 9-level Spellcasters, when the other true martials and non-9-level Spellcasters can't do so? That's a ridiculous thing to allow.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

2 people marked this as a favorite.

Kirth is talking about ability to 'influence the narrative'...an expression he introduced to these boards, btw.

And you'll find his martial builds ALL have some sort of similar ability, so he's not proposing it in a vacuum. It's one of the things missing from most martials, not just the Fighter.

==Aelryinth


Ok guys, been following parts of this discussion (haven't read all the pages I'll admit) and I thought I'd chip in:

I'm currently GM'ing a combat-focused exploration game with a lot of unchained playtesting
(think war-drama, meets fury road, add demons, shake, serve cold)

So just for info I'm using: Revised Action System, Automatic Bonus Progression, Consolidated Skills & the Stamina rules (specificly: the fighters only variant)

Because of all this I'm not even pretending that this is vanilla pathfinder (what is, really? does ANYBODY play that?) -and I think I've never played that. Just something to keep in mind.

First: we have no problem with the Fighter class in this game, none, nada
The PC's are: a Bloodrager, a Fighter, and a Paladin (stonelord) ,
the only one struggeling every now and then is the Pally player
- and that's mostly a combination of bad rolls, less than stellar tactical decisions when under fire, and some Real World Stuff (tm) that has left him very reduced and tired at game nights.

Second: (and this is the part where I bring something new)
A thought popped into my head while reading this thread and it congealed into the following houserule suggestion:

"the fighter can spend points from his stamina pool to increase all Physical skill rolls in the same way that he would increase his to hit "

Boom, bang, svisj, done - it's simple, adds to options and is thematicly accurate (by my opinion) for a fighter.

I think "physical skills" is a good enough description for people to understand, but just in case and for the record they are: Acrobatics, Climb, Escape Artist, Fly, Ride, Stealth & Swim.

Although ... I can see a point for allowing Sleight of Hand, Perception & Intimidate - but then I ask what about Disable Device? and then I wonder if I'm amking a fighter or a Rogue :)

So what do you think?
Fighters using their Stamina Pool to go that extra mile, wheter it's jumping out/through windows while chased by demons, climbing towers to reach dragons or sneaking up on an orc patrol in full plate mail.

(for the record I'm also in the camp that advocates fighters getting 4+int skill points per lvl, since (almost) ALL THE OTHER MARTIALS HAVE IT, seriously wtf paizo? )


Lucas Yew wrote:
Hmm, so I was quite lenient to the casters more than I thought, huh? I'd better reconsider this more carefully... And thanks for the suggestions!

IMHO, no class other than Int-based full-casters should have fewer than 4 skill points per level. There is no need to nerf Bards and Inquisitors either, as those are some of the most balanced classes in the game.

It's okay to want to make Fighters more competitive, but nerfing balanced classes is not a good way to do so. Instead, just make Fighters more competent and versatile.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Meh, Bards and Inqs don't need skill points. Spells and class abilities, saves and BAB all combine to make them balanced. Having lots of skills and being skill intensive is just overkill. It does literally nothing for the two classes other then edge out other classes. WHo needs a skill-based class when those two monster classes that do everything are in play? Have your cake and eat it, too!

Luxuriant Oak, you've got 3 melee classes, where are your spellcasters?

Where's your healers? buffers? teleporters? Fliers? You know, those classes that can do all the things martials can't?

Stonelord is also considered one of the less generall effective paladin builds, not sure on the bloodrager.

Giving the fighter stamina benefits will definitely help him on the combat side of things, there's no disputing that. But you've got a variant campaign there, sure enough, and you're probably catering subconsciously to the fact it's all melee/martial. It makes a huge difference in play when you suddenly introduce a spellcaster.

I know this because waaaay back when, we started up a 3e game and everybody rolled a combat type, with one guy playing a cleric. Our games were basically just wargaming, exchanges of damage and figures moving around.

and then the cleric buffed up with Righteous Might and a couple of other things and completely overshadowed a couple of the fighters. They kind of gawked at him. I abandoned TWF for my halfling fighter-rogue to sword and shield flanking and actually did MORE damage and got MORE effective with fewer attacks.

I then got Leadership and recruited a wizard. Between Slow, Haste, Ice storm, Thunderlance and a couple of buff spells, it turned the DM's careful plans upside down - one spellcaster was enough to transform what an entire battle meant. Things that would have been raging combats became pushovers.

And this was just my henchman!

Spellcasters change battles. In a party of just martials, fighters will look just fine.

==Aelryinth

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