Witch dude


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Maps, Rulebook Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

No need to take damage if you go the familiar route since it can just spend a standard action to wake you. An unseen servant could probably wake you too (by having others command it to) but that has an even bigger problem than the familiar since it's pretty much guaranteed to dissipate from area attacks.


Charon's Little Helper wrote:
Anyone ever figure out a way to automatically deal 1 point of damage to yourself whenever you fall asleep? (I've considered strapping a vial of acid such that it'd break when I fall prone. The times it happens when tripped etc. might be worth the risk.)

My top two solutions to sleep spells

#1
First was reworking magic missile (spell research) into a spell I named "magic thistles" which was basically dividing the force into missiles that never miss, can hit multiple targets and only deals 1 point of damage each...

#2
Small blowgun....


I've said it before and will say it again...

Slumber (and the Sleep spell) don't render you unconscious, prone or make you drop your weapons.

All of these are assumptions.

It simply renders you helpless for the duration.

In fact, unconscious creatures aren't even affected by it.

"A sleep spell causes a magical slumber to come upon 4 HD of creatures. Creatures with the fewest HD are affected first. Among creatures with equal HD, those who are closest to the spell's point of origin are affected first. HD that are not sufficient to affect a creature are wasted. Sleeping creatures are helpless. Slapping or wounding awakens an affected creature, but normal noise does not. Awakening a creature is a standard action (an application of the aid another action). Sleep does not target unconscious creatures, constructs, or undead creatures."

Never mentions actually knocking you out, making you fall over, or even closing your eyes.


Heck, you can still cast Stilled spells while affected by Slumber/Sleep.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

If you're asleep, you're unconscious, you're sleeping.

And that's all I'm going to respond with.


Rysky wrote:

If you're asleep, you're unconscious, you're sleeping.

And that's all I'm going to respond with.

Ack, no. Asleep is helpless and not able to act, but it is not "unconscious" in game terms. You can only become unconscious by dropping below 0 HP or having more nonlethal damage than your HP. This is important because only the unconscious condition "treats the target as willing" for spells like Teleport where this matters.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Asleep = Unconscious


Rysky wrote:
Asleep = Unconscious

..And THAT just gave me this image of a barabarian, standing while asleep, alterning between snoring and roaring out battlecries ...

... maybe he is narcoleptic...?


In real life, losing consciousness due to injury and falling asleep are distinctly different, and I would make a distinction in my own games but for the rules as written it appears that they are not distinct.


In game terms sleeping and unconscious are separate terms.

Quote:
Helpless: A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious...

Witch and warlock are separate class names because there is a shortage of good class names and many different game mechanics ways to represent such a magical character.

I don't see why wiccans are offended by "warlock" and not by "witch". Why wouldn't they just call themselves Wiccan and be done with it.


LuxuriantOak wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Asleep = Unconscious

..And THAT just gave me this image of a barabarian, standing while asleep, alterning between snoring and roaring out battlecries ...

... maybe he is narcoleptic...?

I recall the knights of the Narcoleptic....

As well as the knights of Insomnia....

Sovereign Court

Paladin of Baha-who? wrote:
In real life, losing consciousness due to injury and falling asleep are distinctly different, and I would make a distinction in my own games but for the rules as written it appears that they are not distinct.

They are different. Unconscious from injury won't be conscious again by being slapped or having damage done to them.

Could there be more differences? Sure - but at a certain point you're breaking KISS too hard for too little gain.


Rysky wrote:
Asleep = Unconscious

Unconscious

Quote:
Unconscious creatures are knocked out and helpless. Unconsciousness can result from having negative hit points (but not more than the creature's Constitution score), or from nonlethal damage in excess of current hit points.

It's nice to know about JJ's house rules, though.

The only reference to sleep in Pathfinder conditions is that it gives you the helpless condition. So does unconscious, but they aren't the same thing.

Paladin of Baha-who? wrote:
In real life, losing consciousness due to injury and falling asleep are distinctly different, and I would make a distinction in my own games but for the rules as written it appears that they are not distinct.

They are distinct. Read the actual conditions rules linked above. I certainly think sleep needs to be defined as its own condition, but right now it doesn't interact with unconsciousness.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Slithery D wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Asleep = Unconscious

Unconscious

Quote:
Unconscious creatures are knocked out and helpless. Unconsciousness can result from having negative hit points (but not more than the creature's Constitution score), or from nonlethal damage in excess of current hit points.

It's nice to know about JJ's house rules, though.

The only reference to sleep in Pathfinder conditions is that it gives you the helpless condition. So does unconscious, but they aren't the same thing.

Paladin of Baha-who? wrote:
In real life, losing consciousness due to injury and falling asleep are distinctly different, and I would make a distinction in my own games but for the rules as written it appears that they are not distinct.
They are distinct. Read the actual conditions rules linked above. I certainly think sleep needs to be defined as its own condition, but right now it doesn't interact with unconsciousness.

It's not a house rule, it's the devs believing in common sense and deciding not to blatantly explain and repeat information when it came to spells. They were apparently wrong.

While it's true that if you're unconscious you might not be asleep, the reverse does not hold true.

If you're asleep, you're unconscious.


Have you been "knocked out," a prerequisite for unconsciousness in the Pathfinder system? Maybe from a spell (a wizard did it), but certainly not from natural sleep.

Real world brain activity from sleep is different from concussion/knocked out. And there's a plausible balance reason to only treat "unconscious" as willing for spells like Teleport rather than just sleeping. You want to force players/NPCs to actually overcome the enemy to do this to him rather than sneak up on him (or betray him) while he's sleeping at night.

The rules are clear what the unconsciousness condition is. It's distinct from sleep.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

I'm not sure why you would teleport a sleeping foe rather than CDGing them but that's a tangent.

So sleep = unconscious but brain isn't set to off and can resist effects.

Unconscious unconscious = unconscious and brain off.


VargrBoartusk wrote:

I just want to point out that the use of both Witch and Warlock predate the founding of Wicca as a religion by several centuries. The term has been kicking around since long before all the nice neopagans were around to find it offensive.

Since the Church mainly used the term to denote an offensive, often capital crime, so yeah. Like Indian, it's a term imposed from outside the culture.


I have to wonder if this debate about the status condition of sleep would be better done in a separate thread.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Nohwear wrote:
I have to wonder if this debate about the status condition of sleep would be better done in a separate thread.

Since it has nothing to do with the original question, yeah.

Community Manager

Locking thread—the OP's question was answered, and this keeps derailing into other areas.

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