As the subject title states, and I'm kind of at a loss and would like some suggestions. My group consists of veterans from the 3.5 era, but a couple new to Pathfinder, yet that's not the problem. Whenever combat isn't happening getting the players to make a decision on what their characters want to do is killing the pace of the game. If I give them more than one adventure hook they freeze up like deer in headlights, yet they insist that they want options. Even asking what their characters are going to do when they are in a town I get blank expressions. We can play for 5 hours with maybe two being productive and the other three is me eventually having to lead them by the hand. Even from asking "What do you want to do?" to saying "Do you want to do (x,y, or z)?" I get the same look. It's gotten to the point where I'm not really wanting to play anymore. Does anyone have any advice on how to fix this problem?
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There are really two problems here.
One, you have some players who don't like to take the initiative. Maybe they're just not sure what to do, or maybe they're shy about hogging the spotlight, or maybe they fear that the others will harass them if they do something wrong, or whatever. That's their problem. You cannot just wave a magic wand and fix it. This requires a long-term solution that involves you leading them by the hand, for now, but maybe tapering that off over time as they become more comfortable. If other players laugh at them when they do something awkward, you gotta shut that down hard. Get these players comfortable. Involve the ones who already are - recruit these players to, in-character, include the quieter ones in whatever they're doing at times to help the quiet ones feel more comfortable. It will take time and patience and understanding.
Two, you are too intolerant. These guys seem to be having fun even if they're not comfortable with being in the spotlight yet. But you are so frustrated that you don't want to play with them. Are you really that impatient that you cannot take the time to build these guys into better gamers? You can't chill a bit and help these guys? I suggest that investing some time, leading by example, and doing the stuff I mentioned above might bring these guys around. Maybe even take them aside, one at a time, privately, NOT DURING THE GAME (ask one of them to come early or stay a bit later), and talk to them honestly about what's bothering you. But ultimately, it really sounds like you have as much of a problem as these players do, and maybe you can all help each other work it out.
My summary of what DM_Blake said (and my own opinion):
Have patience, and talk to them.
(isn't it amazing how often that is the best advice?)
Anecdote: it has happened to me as well - players that have very little initiative to drive the story forwards. In my experiences the player will most of the time take more charge and make decisions as they get more comfortable with the group and hobby. In some few cases the player never change and it's part of who they are - for whatever reason, they still care about the game, they just don't like to be put on the spot
:)
There are many possible solutions, such as:
Making players define their characters more clearly at character creation so we know what motivates them.
Making the in-game decisions matter more. There's no real motivation to choose between exploring cave A and cave B, between fight the orcs and fight the hobgoblins. "Save the village or steal the treasure," is a
decision which demonstrates your personality.
Put one player in charge - if they're all trying to share responsibility by waiting for everyone else to make up their mind.
Give them a time limit, and force them to decide on a dice roll if they don't decide another way.
What DM_Blake said.
Talking to them is definitely the solution. Maybe try taking a tack of discussing with the group the top three things they do when they get into a new town ("shop for items", "find a tavern/inn", "visit friends") and set those as standing actions: write them down where everyone can see them (whiteboards are great).
If they're going "deer in headlights" over which plot point to chase, go over each one, and explain the pros and cons as they know them ("you can go into the forest looking for the bandits, or you can investigate that fire over there. If you try to find the bandits, whatever is burning will probably be destroyed by the time you finish, but if you investigate the fire, the bandits will be harder to track"). They do need to be the ones making the decisions, but there's nothing wrong with you as the GM helping them decide. Worst case, you can even go the "secret ballot" route, give each option a number and ask each player to write down the number they choose on a scrap of paper, then tally the votes. Break ties with a dice roll.
You'll eventually be able to start asking "bandits or fire, what are the reasons to do one or the other?", to encourage them to talk to each other (even better if its in character, but baby steps) without involving you.
Give them options, and limits.
Which of these is first?
You have time for two of the following:
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I have had to deal with this in the past. My advice: get them into a dungeon, any dungeon, and quickly. Someplace large with lots of rooms and various challenges, but circumscribed: the biggest decisions are which room to tackle next, which fork in the tunnel to take. If you can include cool story elements, great! But they probably just want to kick in doors and fight monsters for a while.
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It's also possible that your players would be posting: "Help! I have a GM who seems to want the game to go differently!" because they're having a good time, and you have an agenda that they "accomplish something!"
It's likely a difference between what you define as "productive" and what they do.
As the subject title states, and I'm kind of at a loss and would like some suggestions. My group consists of veterans from the 3.5 era, but a couple new to Pathfinder, yet that's not the problem. Whenever combat isn't happening getting the players to make a decision on what their characters want to do is killing the pace of the game. If I give them more than one adventure hook they freeze up like deer in headlights, yet they insist that they want options. Even asking what their characters are going to do when they are in a town I get blank expressions. We can play for 5 hours with maybe two being productive and the other three is me eventually having to lead them by the hand. Even from asking "What do you want to do?" to saying "Do you want to do (x,y, or z)?" I get the same look. It's gotten to the point where I'm not really wanting to play anymore. Does anyone have any advice on how to fix this problem?
Have you asked them why they won't answer when you ask "do you want to do x, y, or z?", and whether there's anything you can do or change to help? They might have a revealing answer.
They're all veterans from the 3.5 era... were they all in the same group? It sounds like you might be dealing with a case of a kind of learned helplessness, which might be the result of some particular DMing style they were all exposed to in the past. Perhaps it's something as mild as the DM failing to give them meaningful or interesting choices until they just don't want to take the trouble of making choices since it was always futile in the past, or as serious and unpleasant as the DM deliberately punishing them for making decisions by putting them constantly in situations where any choice they made would backfire on them. Or maybe they played with a player who wouldn't share the spotlight, and would belittle or override their decisions.
In such cases, it might be understandable that they were effectively trained not to speak up, take initiative, and make decisive choices - I know I've been in a game or two where DMPCs, for example, have left me feeling that way!
If it's a case of learned helplessness, you might need to slowly and gently ease them into making bigger, tougher decisions, by starting with easier, clearer ones with less at stake for making a "wrong" choice. Maybe some confidence- and trust-building exercises are in order?
Or, you might simply have a group full of followers in need of a leader, who feel that it's presumptuous and impolite to speak up and try to make a decision for the group. If this is the case, you might need to get together with them, and designate a leader who is responsible for making the decisions. The character with the highest CHA or WIS, perhaps, or the character who gets the best initiative roll at the beginning of the session, or they take turns, or one character makes choices in combat, another in exploration, another when talking to NPCs, etc., so that there's always at least one person in the group who has a clear right and responsibility to speak up and make a choice.
In any event, I don't think it's intolerant to want and try to offer your players choices, and then feel disappointed when they won't make any decisions on things that effect their characters. There are DMs who would LOVE to have a silent and captive audience with a set of puppet PCs who do exactly what the DM tells them to do, and who would gladly trade places with you - but who would want to play a game with those DMs? I would say it's definitely not a bad thing to want to encourage your players to take a more active role in the group hobby - in my experience, everyone has more fun when everyone is participating.
Well, I have been their almost sole DM for over 15 years! Some of played in others campaigns, modules etc..., but these are friends that I've been solely responsible for introducing them to gaming in the first place. Our last big campaign that everyone loved ended over ten years ago, and we've been playing off and on with various campaigns, scenarios, and adventures, since. Most of those would last about 3-4 months before work and real life would prevent any gaming.
Since then, in retrospect, I feel like technology may be interfering as well. Everyone has something on their tablet or smartphone, be it a dice roller or character sheet, or some game tool; yet they'll also be on youtube or doing something non game related with them as well. Perhaps I should rule no electronics at the table other than family emergencies?
I do like the ideas about each player writing their short, mid, and long term goals for each session as well. SO far good criticism and suggestions. Keep em' coming!
Glowing [neon color of choice] arrows with "plot hook" can work wonders. Sometimes my group needs that. Not everyone is on the ball come game time, especially during any game that is in close proximity to work/other activity that was brain-draining prior.
" Uuhhh, now what? " [dithering to the tune of the Jeopardy theme] " A neon green arrow pointing at the Tome of Mind-Shattering Lore appears. "
"Got it! "
;)
Ask them to describe previous gaming experience, maybe see if one of them will DM/GM a quick session.
They may just have a different playstyle.
Guide them and speed things along when you feel it is necessary. Sometimes players can get caught in a rut or never get out of first gear so to speak and need a little help getting there. The pace of the game should always be a consideration so do what you have to do to keep it moving.
Since then, in retrospect, I feel like technology may be interfering as well. Everyone has something on their tablet or smartphone, be it a dice roller or character sheet, or some game tool; yet they'll also be on youtube or doing something non game related with them as well. Perhaps I should rule no electronics at the table other than family emergencies?
You definitely need a no non-gaming related electronic usage during the game rule. It's just common courtesy to the DM. Otherwise, I would literally not play with those people. Running a game takes too much work for people to not pay attention to the scenario being presented.
Having the PCs vote in a democratic manner can help sometimes. If you offer them 3 options and ask them to vote it hopefully shouldn't take them too long to do so.
Maybe you could also have a "backup plan" for what happens to the party if they don't do anything. Like they could go to the trapped dungeon of the gnomish trickster to try to earn a rumored prize, they could investigate a recent string of ritualistic murders in the waterfront district, or they could trek to the distant city of Kabu to explore the nearby jungles and find the Golden Monkey. If they just sit around doing nothing maybe the ritualistic murderers target a PC or an NPC close to the party, or maybe goblins begin raiding local trade caravans and the mayor asks the party to intervene.
There can also probably be such a thing as too many adventure hooks though. In one campaign we rarely finish any quest since the DM generally distracts us with a side quest which leads us away from our goal. Other times the challenge just grows to great and we have to turn back. Either way we have so many hooks and unfinished quests that I have compiled a list of them to help us keep track of the quests and NPCs. It is around 6 pages long printed and includes upwards of 25 adventure hooks, around a third of which we haven't even checked out yet and only around 4 of which we've completed the quest for. The rest are all partially completed.
Too many leads/hooks can lead to decision paralysis. The flip side of this are unappealing leads/hooks.
I think that as their confidence grows in the group and game, they might start to do things without your help.
I've been there where players cycle onto electronics when it's not their turn in combat or are otherwise not directly engaged. Annoying, but able to be dealt with. If they won't listen to a direct address to pay attention, then reward the ones that are involved and focus on them. It could be a passive aggressive way of telling you that they are not being engaged, but that's on them, not you.
It may not be lack of skill on their end... after so many years of gaming, there will be points of either fatigue, burnout, or ennui. They usually come and go; the group may just be in a funk, hopefully temporary.
There are things not being said on the table; either the options you present are not what they are looking for and they are fishing for better, or there is a real dissonance where players and DM cannot reconcile what each expects from the other.
Given a choice between garbage and trash, I would hold out as a player because I will not choose between failing and failing harder. I'll see where the next choo-choo is headed when it pulls into the station.
So they are competent in Combat, and they have 3.5/PF experience. Dude, it may your setting that they are either unfamiliar, inept, or unappealing to those players if you have to prod them through your magical realm. The majority doesn't sound like novices that may plod slowly through a campaign. They have to have a reason(s) -ask. If you reached out, the next move is theirs.
Short of throwing encounters and cascading repercussions of not proactively adventuring and pursuing your plot hooks, you are going to need to get them participating in your (and theirs) campaign through an investment besides them being punch-clock obligatory adventurers working on loot commission.
Institute a time limit. If the limit expires, I would avoid a random die roll determining their action (it sounds like they'll just wait for that every time).
Instead, have a wander monster encounter. Start with CR 1 creatures. Escalate as they continue to dither.
When it is an "in town" or a plot hook choice, I suggest a slightly longer time limit, but put one player in charge for that choice only. Each player should get a turn as the leader. The leader can, and should, take input from the other players, but gets the final say, that particular time.
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An entirely different possibility:
After fifteen years as the sole DM for this group, are you burned out? Do you want to be a player for once? Tell the group that you are fried with being the DM for the time being and ask someone else to step up and run the game.