Chaos Arrow

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Hello, I am looking at the Inubrix golem and I think there is a typo. In the special attack section it says its breath weapon has a Reflex save. However, in the description of the breath weapon a Will 20 DC save appears.

Special Attacks breath weapon (15-ft. cone, see below, Reflex DC 20 half, usable every 1d4 rounds)

Breath Weapon (Su) An inubrix golem can expel a 15-foot cone of yellowish gas as a standard action once every 1d4 rounds. Creatures within the gas cloud feel their skin crawl and their senses deaden. Each creature within the area must succeed at a DC 20 Will save or be staggered for 1d4 rounds and gain 1 negative level. The save DC to remove these negative levels is equal to the initial saving throw for the breath weapon.

I guess the Will DC is the correct one even if cloud and negative levels effects usually allow Fortitude saves. Any thoughts on this? Consider pressing the FAQ button to get an official answer. Thanks

it seems like a better argument, but it's actually just not true. nowhere does it say that nonlethal damage isn't damage. in fact, both it and ability damage are literally called damage. it's right there in the label.

I did look for it before answering and he could stick to this single mention. But as I see it, the fact that real is in quotes clearly indicates that it is not meant to be taken literally. That, and the fact that no feat makes distinction between normal and nonlethal damage is why I disagree. (Except the ones that allow you to intimidate or reduce penalties for doing it with lethal weapons).


"Nonlethal Damage

Nonlethal damage represents harm to a character that is not life-threatening. Unlike normal damage, nonlethal damage is healed quickly with rest.

Dealing Nonlethal Damage
Certain attacks deal nonlethal damage. Other effects, such as heat or being exhausted, also deal nonlethal damage. When you take nonlethal damage, keep a running total of how much you’ve accumulated. Do not deduct the nonlethal damage number from your current hit points. It is not “real” damage. Instead, when your nonlethal damage equals your current hit points, you’re staggered (see below), and when it exceeds your current hit points, you fall unconscious."

If you were planning to make the familiar scout but expect it to die doing so, there is always the figment familiar archetype which is in the ultimate wilderness (hardcover).

Insect spies is safer but the information the spell grants is limited (if the insects survive)

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Wow, I love the plot.

If you fear the players will hit first with no questions ask, you can always make them find drafts of a negotiation letter , or the original contract, in some desk before the Hobgoblin assemble all their real power when they realise they are being attacked.

To make obvious they have the resources, the wizard may have am expensive ring with the heraldry matching the clothes of her children. And let them borrow until the quest is done.

Perfect Tommy wrote:

Spells which do damage with a save.

Aqueous orbs does make non lethal damage with a save the first time it hits you. Also, dazing spell forces a Will save for spells that do damage without a save.

Perfect Tommy wrote:
Of course not. Ability damage is not damage, just like non lethal dmg is not damage.

I disagree, But , this is a better point you are making, as long as you are consistent not allowing power attack, bardic performance or any other feature to increase the nonlethal damage done in melee or any other kind.

Thunderlord wrote:
At that level the magus is doing 10d6 + 50 so the fighter ends up looking like a chump anyways.

Just ask your DM to make at least 4 encounters a day, and see see if the magus can keep his damage in all of them. Also being a two-handed weapon the magus can do that every other round.

Dips are consequence of a game where a lot of abilities go from 0 to max in just one level or have multiple silly prerequisites. To avoid abuse a good design is to make the powers increase with level.

I often find myself designing NPC with dips in monk, fighter or swashbuckler just to collect the prerequisites feats needed to make a concept work.

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JiCi wrote:
As others have said, while the Butchering Axe was created by orcs, it's not a racial weapon. I think it's kinda stupid, as orc don't have traditional axes and two-handed swords.

I would not call stupid asking at least for a feat on a weapon that puts you one step ahead in the size increase scale.

Yo may want to take a look to the blinkback belt once your magic weapon of choice starts to get expensive.

Abraham spalding wrote:


"Everyone get behind me." Detect magic.

Do until Answer = "yes"
"Is there an aura in that direction?"

IF Answer = "yes" then:
AOE spell
End If

The bad boys casting alarms are gonna love this.

maouse33 wrote:

Nothing says they don't work on each other, so do they stack?

Kind of important for Darkvision folks: if they get one, two, or three level reductions or not.

** spoiler omitted **

For that matter, do multiple Darkness spells that overlap cause additional drops in light levels?

All the sources of light and darkness have similar language or +X or -X levels of illumination and not a single one stacks.

See the FAQ

Great guide, I have found that wealth and equipment are a exponential, so make use of lots of consumables for the NPC instead of magic items.

Lesser Talisman from Occult adventures are very, very useful for the humanoid NPC bosses, specially against a grappling character/pet.

What are exactly the features he wants to emulate from Darth Vader?
If he wants all of the features of a Sith (Telekinesis, Rays, Mind Control) I would go for an Eldritch Knight. You can thematically start from an Arcanist Blade adept Archetype if the priority is the sword or from Wizard Sword Binder if the priority is having spells early.

If mind control is not required I second aether kineticist as was suggested by Val'bryn2.

One of my players is a fire one and he did pretty well in a sword contest I organized to introduce an important NPC. He used a fire sword he conjured, so if aether does not have this infusion you can house rule it and replace one of the aether infusions of the same level for the aether sword.

Another option which needs reflavouring is an spiritualist Phantom Blade. It is simmilar to the magus, but he can wear the armor he wants since it uses psychic magic. The spell list has no charm person or suggestion though, and telekinesis comes very late.

PILFERING HAND is a very nice spell for him and it is shared between a lot of clases.

Thank you Wheldrake, you totally convinced me about Question 2. The invisibility point you made is strong.

Wheldrake wrote:
It seems to me that "manifold stare" would indeed allow you to do extra "stare" damage, either twice per round on the same victim, or once to each of two victims on the same round, even if it was from a single spell, such as magic missile or scorching ray.

Not to 2 different victims unless you are allowed a swift action between the two hits in order to change the victim you are "hypnotic staring" at.

Regarding Scorching ray and 1 victim there is no doubt, because they are clearly 2 hits, from 2 rays. I do not see it so crystal clear with magic missile, but I can see the point.

Any thoughts on question 2?

Micheal Smith wrote:
So basically to figure out with multiclassing I use my full monk level as BAB + other classes BAB (For purposes of FoB) Then I go to that level of the Monk Table and that is my FoB Attack Bonus?

You are correct there is a FAQ about it

You cannot mix Brawler's flurry with Monk's flurry since they are 2 different type of full-attacks. You do not loos progression in monk's flurry with this multiclass, but by RAW, you do loose in the brawler's one. As a DM I would probable house rule it and allow not to loose progression in the brawler's one, but never having extra attacks mixing both.

Hi, after reading the relevant descriptions I have some doubts.

Painful Stare wrote:

When an attack that deals damage hits the target of a mesmerist’s hypnotic stare, the mesmerist can cause the target to take an amount of additional damage equal to 1/2 the mesmerist’s class level (minimum 1).

The mesmerist can use this ability as a free action, and can use it even if it isn’t his turn. If the mesmerist uses this ability to increase his own damage, the additional damage increases by 1d6 points for every 3 class levels the mesmerist possesses. This damage is precision damage and is not multiplied on a critical hit. A mesmerist can trigger this ability only once per round, but a single creature can take damage from multiple mesmerists’ painful stares in a round.

Manifold Stare wrote:
You can trigger your painful stare one additional time per round.
What is considered an attack in the Magic Section wrote:
Some spell descriptions refer to attacking. All offensive combat actions, even those that don’t damage opponents, are considered attacks. Attempts to channel energy count as attacks if it would harm any creatures in the area. All spells that opponents resist with saving throws, that deal damage, or that otherwise harm or hamper subjects are attacks. Spells that summon monsters or other allies are not attacks because the spells themselves don’t harm anyone.

I understand that a mesmerist can use painful stare while casting magic missile. Because it is an attack, it deals hp damage and it hits ("strikes" in the spell description of magic missile), even if it is automatically and without a roll.

1. But can several missiles directed to a single target trigger manifold stare? There are more than one missile, but I consider all of the missiles the same 'hit' if directed to the same target. Is that correct?

2. Regarding the interaction with other spells that attack on their own, for instance spiritual weapon. Is a hit from a spiritual weapon considered as the mesmerist own damage for the purposes of applying +Xd6 instead of +X damage. I am inclined to say yes since the caster directs it and the spells uses casters variables, but since I had the 1st doubt, there is no harm in including an extra related question to the thread.

I doubt that the intention was to be only positive intelligence modifiers, because Energy Attunement specifies that you can start to use it at 5th level. Precisely 5th level is the 1st level where the black blade has 12 Intelligence so there was no need for this statement. Furthermore The blade never has a negative modifier to Int. However RAW Cyrad is right.

Edit: I see now that the pool is 1+ the bonus so the sword has a pool at level 1, my bad.

AFKhaos wrote:

So it is my understanding that a magus who is wearing a buckler uses spell combat it will not benefit from the buckler's shield bonus to it's AC. So I was curious about the wording on this spell.

** spoiler omitted **

So for purposes of "interposing between the wielder and the spell effect" would not benefiting from it's shield bonus through spell combat and the like hinder you from interposing your buckler? And if not what exactly would prevent someone from just having SR all the time?

Hi, I was considering exactly the same thing. I was hoping to find a general opinion about that in the forum, not the same question.

I guess you can not benefit from de spell's SR if you can not benefit from the AC bonus. And you were right, you can not if you use that hand to cast a spell or TWF.

Kageshira wrote:

Too much sarcasm in here.

Couple of things, and this is my opinion:

1. I don't enjoy being useless and meaningless, just being the comical relief doesn't do it for me either. When you reach the level in where weapon damage is the least effective way to end encounters is when martials stop being useful and just become furniture

2. There's this thing called levels, which measure the power of a character, characters of the same level should have similar power. I don't get why people think casters SHOULD be more powerful than martials at the same level. If it takes the same exp to reach X level as a martial and as a caster, why caster SHOULD get way more benefits?

I know true balance is hard to achieve, but the disparity between some classes is absurd and pretty obvious. Luckily I found a nice and experienced group (after some bad) so the disparity problems are reduced quite a lot

1. According to you, which is that level where damage is not effective in combat? I have played several campaigns and this never happened to me. Sometimes while playing a caster I even desisted to try to overcome certain SR and started buffing the martial mates. So did the others when I played the martial.

2. I have only read 1 person in this thread giving this opinion. It is clearly not the majority of the opinions.

toastedamphibian wrote:
Lashing Shadowcraft weapon looks pretty handy.

I know, that and zon-kuthon flavor are the reasons why the NPC has a shadowcraft wepon in the first place. But there are huge chances of making 1 weapon damage.

PossibleCabbage wrote:
Isn't Return of the Runelords going to go all the way to 20? As I understand it, the reason most APs stop around levels 16-18 is as much about "finding space in the book for enough campaign material without sacrificing too much of the backmatter" as it is about "people don't enjoy running very high level stuff".

Didn't know that, great news! I know most people don't like the high level modules. Luckily most of the adventures paths have some sort of ending so there can be fun for every one regardless of their interests.

BTW, I totally like your point about magic detectors to give relevance to the rogue which is IMO the only class that stays behind, even with the improved unchained version.

Thanks. I guess you are right, it is the only reference to how shadow things work. Even if it makes melee shadowcraft weapons even worse.

I have yet to decide if I am really mean and still pick Weapon Sacrifice to lower the treasure that mi PC can loot.

I really don't see any problem.
Regarding combat, unless the DM is running less than 3 combats per day, a well built only martial character is very consistent, contributes greatly to the combats and in almost every high level adventure I have played is needed to deal with the really big guys.

Out of combat, if you want a fantasy setting were the party needs to teleport, change plane of any high fantasy stuff, you need a caster, sure. You can contract the services of one if you decided to go only martial. But how is supposed anyone to do that stuff without access to magic?

If the problem is some people don't like high level fantasy, just play low to mid level campaigns, but do not take the fun for the people who likes it. There are no official 20 level campaigns anymore, do not reduce the level more, you can just stop playing them when they become boring to you.

Hello, I am building a Zon-Kuthon Warpriest, and after considering the Weapon Sacrifice option I realized that I have no clue about these 2 questions:

Is it possible to sunder or damage quasi-real shadowcraft weapons?

If so, which is the Hardness and how many hitpoins has a shadowcraft weapon?

Bonus: If you can not damage them, can you use Weapon sacrifice with them? Does this depend on any Will save?

I had same idea about making the characters more regular, by adding more dices that add up to 20. 1d20 => 2d10 => 2d6+1d8 => 2d6+2d4 => 5d4 , and so. They also increase the expectation of the roll. Furthermore it does not generate a gap so quick between levels, which is a far more realistic option.

As some people has stated the main problem is the criticals. If you fix the critical at something like 17 it is much better. But of course this arises other problems.

Jurassic Pratt wrote:
LoBandolerPi wrote:
TrinitysEnd wrote:
If it helps, Pathfinder Society bans both because of this.
No surprise there. An enlarged Titan mauler with Vital strike could deal 12d6 at level 6. 16d6 With Lead Blades on top. Instant killing most monsters of its CR.
So first off, how is the Enlarged Titan Mauler getting Lead Blades?

My bad, You need an Impact weapon or Samsaran character and 1 level dip.

From level 6 the penalty is not -4, but -2 and decreasing every 3 levels. And the iterative attack penalty is in -5 increments.

About instant killing. I know that Natural attacks are even more OP at low levels. In my home games we cap their number with the Eidolon table, but at least you need to be able to full attack. So if the enemies are not dumb, they can strike and retreat. With Vital Butchering Axe you just approach, strike, kill.

The size increase table grows faster than linearly, and anything increasing the starting point is a huge difference. I noticed after writing the other day that there is no way to avoid taking the exotic proficiency. That is good and makes it less OP. But it is not a starved feat build.

TrinitysEnd wrote:
If it helps, Pathfinder Society bans both because of this.

No surprise there. An enlarged Titan mauler with Vital strike could deal 12d6 at level 6. 16d6 With Lead Blades on top. Instant killing most monsters of its CR.

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This thread is hilarious. It is a relief seeing worse cases than mine.

Me: You see a circular room with a circular tank of black liquid. From the liquid emerges a statue of one goddess of evil.
PlayerKineticist: Fire blast to the statue.
Me: The statue seems unafected.
Rest of players: enter the room to hit the statue.
Me: The black liquid was hiding a mechanism and some joints razors appear and start spinning. Roll reflex, damage, etc.
Players: Climb the tank/fly to get out of the razors, hit the statue.
Me: Roll Acrobatics to avoid falling into the tank (all succeed). After your 2 rounds of hitting the statue the head breaks. The razors stop spinning, but look like the events are not connected.
PlayerMonk: I grapple the statue and apply constrict damage 3 times with my super combo.
Me: you break the statue and fall into the tank with the razors, roll direct damage.

Thank you all.
Sorry I did not get alert for the replies and I was on holidays. For sure lesser talisman of freedom will do the trick.

Since almost everyone seems to agree on that you can take WF on the specific heirloom weapon "Ascending Dragon" .
If you manage to acquire temporal proficiency with all the rest of nodachis (for instance through the champion spirit of the medium class or the spell Bestow Weapon Proficiency), does the feat apply to all nodachis while you have the proficiency?

I have one of my players with a large tiger pet which is a grappling specialist. They keep a high profile, so almost all the really bad guys know about their fighting techniques.

Is there any legal consumable that grants freedom of movement? Potions are capped to lv3, and I don't want to give them 10k extra for an unfettered shirt after some of the fights. I have been generous enough in the campaign.

Gnome Oracle shadow conjuration specialist (via veiled illusionist).

A part from the RP because of the prankster personality, its flexibility in combat is amazing and I am using a lot of spells I would have never memorized. Now is kind of a challenge use rare spells if a favorable situation for it comes up.

Words of Power Arcane Trickster from tattooed draconic sorcerer.

With VMC to qualify I have 8feats+1 for human
Varisian Tatoo Free +1CL
Quicken spell free
Spell specialization (2 feats) +2CL
Accomplished sneak (1 feats)
Eldrich heritage orc (2 feats)
Maximized Empowered (2 feats)
Spell perfection (1 feat)
Spontaneous Metafocus (1 feat)

With invisibility greater casted:

Spellword1 lv9 = boosted selected, fire3,electric3+acid2
maximized(reduced through spell perfection)
+empowered(reduced through traits)

23 rays * (23*9 energy from dice + 10 + 10 energy from bloodlines + 8d6 sneak)

Spellword2 lv9 = boosted selected, fire3,electric3+acid2
Quickened(reduced through spell perfection)
+empowered(reduced through traits)

23 rays * ( (23d6*1.5) energy from dice + 10 + 10 energy from bloodlines + 8d6 sneak )

5865 damage spell1 + 3881 spell2 = 9746 damage

Not crits nor items nor mythic metamagic counted

Check out the Belt, serpent

An these threads

Thread 2

With variant rules to just select extra feats instead of some class features (which should include armor proficiencies) I will be happy enough. I often dip in monk/brawler/fighter for the extra feats for my NPC.

I was hoping to break a weapon or at least scare some of my players with it by using living steel armor in the big evil lady. however, no 1's were rolled in the combat. :(
I gave them 500gp extra, they are happy.

Wheldrake wrote:

Piecemeal armor will never work unless or until you also use localised hits with every melee or ranged attack in the game.

I recall having to keep track of your armor level on different parts of the body in both ICE/MERP and Runequest. Both were really cumbersome systems, and lead to rampant player death and incapacitation. The ICE/MERP rules for critical hits were particularly grievous. Believe me, you really didn't want to get in combat with those systems.

So I have some advice:
1) Don't use eastern armor types unless your characters are adventuring in Tian, or from there. It's particularly silly.
2) Don't use the piecemeal armor rules, they are ill-considered and poorly written up.
3) If you must mix and match armor types, simply try to work out an average value between the two (or more) sets of armor involved.

Pathfinder is full of abstractions. Hit points and armor class top the list of vague, generalized abstractions. Just go with the flow and use standard rules for both. And forget called shots, too. <g>

Thanks for the advice. After a couple of hours trying to figure out a system I decided to skip official Paizo's gladiator archetype feature "consider full set of armor with only 2 pieces".

I am just giving them full mobility in medium armor (for the lack of armor in the legs being still a full set).

GrayPockets wrote:

I've written an addon for the Piecemeal Armor variant here: Piecemeal Armor

The changes address most of the imbalance issues and cover the exceptional cases of Half-Plate, Chain Shirt, and Breastplate in a more balanced fashion.

Sorry to necro the post. But I am interested in your variant rules and the link is broken.

Bigger Club wrote:

I do not have Ultimate Equipment, so does blink back belt only work on throwing weapons or anything? Just an idea that if not using throw anything feat you could get superior critical threat and/or modifier.

I haven't done the math but I would asume TWF and Rapid shot are things you want so it is going to be feat intensive build so fighter would probably work nicely. Maybe dip in to Barbarian Hurler to get 10ft more to range increament.

You can attach to the belt 2 one-handed weapons or 4 light weapons (or 1 + 2 I would assume).

Ridiculon wrote:
... you must make the attacks in order from highest bonus to lowest.

Thanks, I was looking for this, it totally ruined the build I had in mind to push away my player's character with a brother of the seal monk.

I will probably house rule it, but I was curious about if it was legal or not.

Librain wrote:
... I can't see any reason why it would make any difference,

I was just working on a brother of the seal monk and it makes a huge difference, saving one awesome blow with best bonus for the last attack to push away the enemy. But a maneuver monk with push will be the same case.

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Well, I am just running the 1st module for the 1st time, but I have a couple of variations in mind, to link events of the plots.

I have made Trinia fake a Shoanti heritage to get popular with her art. This will help introduce the mood for the Gaeken beating.

All the Urgathoa thing looks forced to me, so I have introduced a loan from rich ratfolks in 1st adventure in exchange for free comerce and protection on the surface of the city. Then the Queen will make sure that the plague is related to the ratfolks by hiring evil ratkin alchemists so she can skip returning the gold.

I just read another twist that compliment mine and is that Urgathoan clerics designed the poison in exchange for a plague that should not affect Cheliaxans, but they lied to the Queen. So once the PCs are close to investigate the temple, she can tell the PCs that Dr.Davalus has lied to her (he is a ratfolk using hat of disguise of course).

Defraeter wrote:

A save buff doesn't "work on items".

You use the magic item's saving throw OR those of its wielder.

Does this mean that an item which has already passed it's save, and which boosts the Wisdom of the wielder (or grants any other bonus to saving throws) does not has to be taken into account in order to determine "the saving throw of the wielder"? I don't think so.

Is this example correct?

A character with Will save of 12, without bonuses. He is wielding 3 different objects, and each one grants the PJ +1 to will saves (luckystone, headband and guardian weapon for instance, and let's assume all of them use the weilder saving throw)

The DC of the disjunction is 29.
The character rolls for the 3 objects 20, 14 and 4.
Since all is simultaneous, we start from the lower result.

4+12+1+1+1 = 19 < 29. The guardian weapon fails the save, so its bonus is not taken into account.

14+12+1+1 = 28 < 29. The headband fails the save because of simultaneity.

20+12+1 > 29. The luckystone saves, so will be taken into account for the rest of objects.

Thanks, I though DR should apply, and the muscle of my group is not good at range but knowing this, regular bows and transformation is an option for my to contribute a bit.

wraithstrike wrote:
the momentum needed to move arrows may not be be enough to move them at their new size.

That's why I'm asking, because it doesn't seem logical to me to get enough inertia to full damage, even if I place myself just above the target, but there are so many things I don't find logic in the game... There was a desperate though to strike back an ancient dragon who has already used the antimagic field to spoil almost all my group tactics to defend the city.

I have another extra question about this issue.

If I cast shrink item on a set of colossal arrows (reducing it 4 categories to normal) and I fire them to an objective with an active antimagic field.
Would they do the damage of a huge arrow, since shrink item would vanish?
In case it is right, is the damage 1d8(M)-->2d6(L)-->3d6(H)-->4d6?(C)