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Poisons are terrible for PCs. But can we salvage something useful?
First off, these are the Society legal poisons (from the FAQ):
Giant wasp poison (DC 18, 1d2 Dex, 210 gp)
Large scorpion venom (DC 17, 1d2 Str, 200 gp)
Medium spider venom (DC 14, 1d2 str, 4 rounds, 150 gp)
Shadow essence (strictly inferior to giant wasp poison; we don't care about the difference between damage and drain)
Small centipede poison (DC 11, 1 dex, 4 rounds, 90 gp)
...I'm not impressed.
Alchemy Manual adds a LOT of new poisons to that list.
Flaming Doom (DC 18/2 saves, 1d6 fire dam + save vs catching fire, 900 gp)
Smell of Fear (Inhaled DC 17/2 saves, 1/min for 6 minutes, 1d2 Wis and Shaken becomes Frightened)
Alchemical Isolation (inhaled DC 13/1 save, initial defeaned, secondary blinded, 1/minute 2 minutes)
Count Ambras punishment (Contact DC 16, onset 1 minute, 1/minute for 6 minutes, initial: 1 dex drain and Nauseated 1 minute, 350 gp)
Confabulation powder: inhaled DC 18, 1/minute 2 minutes, staggered + extra effects, 80 gp
Okay, now we've got some serious debuffs on the table. Interestingly, they're mostly Inhaled or Contact.
Next post: How to use poisons.
How to poison better
Rogues and Alchemists are the two main poison-using classes. They each have a few tricks.
Rogue Tricks:
*Poisoner archetype gets Poison Use (a prerequisite in PFS), and at level 3 gets Poison Conversion, taking an hour to change the type of a poison.
*Swift Poison talent isn't a swift action, but a move action.
*Lasting Poison talent takes a full-round or standard action, lasts for two srikes, at -2 DC.
*Deadly Cocktail advanced talent applies two doses of poison to a weapon, same or different, and delivers both doses on a hit.
Alchemist gains Poison Use at level 2, and actual swift poisoning at level 6.
*Celestial Poison discovery lets you poison undead at level 8.
*Concentrate poison discovery lets you combine 2 doses for +2 DC and +50% duration.
*Malignant Poison discovery, level 10: As a full-round action, boost a poison for 1 minute/level. +4 DC, +2 increments duration, and no onset time.
*Poison Conversion discovery: A discovery at level 6 instead of a class feature at level 3, but only takes 1 minute and doesn't risk ruining the poison. EDIT: Not PFS legal.
*Sticky Poison discovery, level 6: any weapon poison lasts for a number of strikes =Int modifier, no downsides.
All in all, the Alchemist doesn't get a lot of poison toys until level 6, but when he does, they're vastly better than the Rogue's.
Trapper Ranger (or feat)
*Poison trap. Can be used to make a supernatural trap with level-scaling DC doing 1d2 Con for 6 rounds.
Daggermark Poisoner. This Prestige Class gets all the toys, but...it mostly gets inferior or delayed versions of Alchemist features. A few unique capabilities:
*Launch Trap at character level 7 (level 10 for a Trapper Ranger) for FREE poisoned arrows with Con poison.
*Combine poison - double-poisoned weapon at level 7 (level 10 for Rogues, unavailable to alchemists).
*Poison Conversion, otherwise only available to Poisoner Rogues.
Traits
*Venom-Drenched (Religion, Norgorber) (legal if norgorber is): Immune to one posion; doesn't matter much, you're not going to poison yourself, are you? You are, because the first creature that bites you get a does of what's in you. More funny than effective.
Potent Concoctions (Religion, Ghlaunder) (legal if Ghlaunder is): +1 DC for 2 poisons, but only CRB poisons.
Feats
*Adder Strike - swift action to apply two doses of contact poison to different unarmed strikes.
*Toxicological Timing - turn "minute" poisons into "round" poisons. Requires level 9.
Improved Toxicological timing (requires level 11): Remove onset time. At this level, Malignant Poison will do the same, only better.
*Poisoner's channel - requires Channel negative Energy 3d6, gives -4 to saves after taking damage 1/day.
*Pinpoint poisoner (level 6)- make melee touch attack for piddly damage plus poison? Not bad.
*Subtle Poisoner (level 5) - mostly useful as an inferior substitute for swift action poison, or if you really need that swift action for something else.
Poison Focus: +1 DC.
Equipment
*Poisoned sand tube - 3 doses contact or inhaled poison to affect a 15' cone.
*Poisoner's Jacket. Even if it allows you to bypass the restriction on allowed poisons - and that's a big IF - it's still 12.000 gp for one dose per day.
*Serpent Belt. If you can convince your GM that "+4 bonus to all poisons" means +4 to the DC of your poisons, this is a great belt.
*Poison Belcher - delivers ingested poisons at short range.
*Poison Diffuser - use contact or ingested poison as inhaled.
Honorable mentions
*Poison Steep Hex. Would be useful if it could be transformed with Poison Conversion. EDIT: Not PFS legal.
*Chalice of Poison Weeping. Cures poison, and gives you a dose of the poison. But at 8.000 gp, once per day, poison lasts only a day, at -4 DC, it's much too circumstantial.
Right away, we see that the CRB rulebook poisons are pretty much only useful to hunt Fey and other tiny creatures.
Flaming Doom kills your enemy faster, but even at 300 GP self-crafted it seems expensive for what it does.
Smell of Fear is useful as-is; we're after the fear increase, not the Wis damage, so the 1 minute interval doesn't matter.
Alchemical Isolation needs to be changed to a "rounds" poison to be useful in a fight.
Count Ambras Punishment needs removed onset time to be useful in a fight.
Confabulation Powder is useful straight away.
Next post: Other legal poisons, spells.
Rival guide:
*Cockatrice Spit, contact/ingested, DC 12, 4 rounds, 1d2 Dex, full dex damage=petrified, 1.000 gp.
*Fiddleback Venom, injury/ingested, Onset 1 minute, DC 13/2 saves 1/minute 6 minutes, initial: nauseated 1d4 rounds, secondary: 1d3 Str, 1d4 Con. 500 gp
*Hag Spit, injury/ingested, DC 16/2 saves, blindness 1d10 rounds, 1d4 wisdom damage. 1.500 gp.
*Rainbow Jellyfish Toxin, contact, DC 14, 2 rounds, initial: staggered 1d6 rounds, secondary. paralyzed 1d6 minutes, 400 gp.
This....is pretty sweet. Fiddleback Venom is really only useful for a level 10 poison master who can remove the drawbacks, but...that save DC is low for level 10+. Hag Spit is pricey but effective. Rainbow Jellyfish toxin is effective and has a very real chance of just removing your opponent from the fight pretty quickly.
Ultimate Equipment:
*Black adder venom DC 11 injury, 1d2 con, 6 rounds, 120 gp
*Bloodroot DC 12 injury, 1 round onset, 1 wis 1 con, 4 rounds, 100 gp
*Greenblood oil DC 13 injury, 1 Con, 4 rounds, 100 gp
*Malyass root paste DC 16 contact, onset 1 min, 1/minute 6 minutes, 1d2 Dex, 250 gp
*Nitharit DC 13 contact, 1 minute onset, 1/minute 6 minutes, 1d3 Con, 650 gp
*Terinav root, same as malyass except 1d3 dex, 400 gp.
And here we get Con poison - the kind that makes enemies dead slightly quicker - and cheap enough to stack and spam it. Nice.
Spells
*Pernicious Poison: -4 to saves, 2 extra increments duration. No save and looong duration is nice, touch range not so much.
*Accelerate poison: Touch range, fort negates, only on poisons already introduced to victim. Pass, pass, pass.
*Transmute Potion to Poison: Very meh. If you find some 3rd level potions as expendables and you have 2. level extract slots to spare....but why would you ever have 2, level slots to spare?
Touch Injection: Long duration, so it's a prebuff - and it's not a touch spell, so it won't go away if you cast something else. What makes this spell actually useful is that it removes onset time.
Toxic Gift: Potentially useful, combined with immunity. But it just doesn't DO enough to really interest me.
Beguiling Gift: Because making your enemy drink poison is never not funny.
Isn't that what this book is for?
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Have any of you ever tried this in PFS? How did it work out for you?
The reason I'm asking is, there is a fellow working on a poisoner alchemist at our local. I have played with him in the party on 2 occasions. Not once did any creature fail their saves vs his poisons. Apparently the DC's were simply not high enough to be useful. (Seems like something had a minor effect even when the save was successful.)
He was in the level 4-6 range. I don't know about his build details.
So he ended up being a an alchemist that had devoted all his discoveries to poison (at least I never saw him use any others). With just the few standard alchemist infusions. Mostly for self buffing defense.
He was never in danger of dying and his intelligence skills helped out of combat. But in the fights he mostly just drew the occasional attack and did a very small amount of damage with his hand crossbow.
I would like to try one, but I'm not going to bother if you can't get the DC's high enough to matter. From the list above, it looks like you can't manage better than a +8 to the DC of the poison clear at level 10. that isn't very high especially for the ones with the neat effects but low DC. Even a wizard is going to make those DC's most of the time.
Or am I missing something?
Dotting for interest. Been wanting to make an effective poison master alchemist type, just haven't known how. He'd probably also use drugs in battle as well though...
I haven't actually tried any of this. I wanted to get all the Legos on the floor before I even started building.
I think one of the draws for an alchemist is its versatility. Can't throw bombs? He switches over to mutagens and can be competent in melee. I suppose if they had made archetypes that took away say a mutagen to improve ones poison abilities, I wouldn't object though.
I will agree though that I've wanted to play an effective poisoner for a very long time. I know you can stack doses and increase the DC of the poisons to acceptable levels, but I think the cost to make the poisons one wants and the fact that there are a decent amount of things with either large Fort saves or outright immunity to poisons.
I just love the idea of a poison master, who considers his craft an art form and enjoys testing it on enemies.
I'm personally hoping that the newest class, the investigator, gets an archetype for poisons, or maybe have the alchemist get one specifically for it. I'm also hoping that at some point paizo might make an "ultimate poisons" supplement. One that includes rules for creating custom poisons as well as some equipment for it and maybe a feat that lowers the cost to make it reasonable.
It would be neat to have a poisoner assassin prestige that instead of gaining poison resistance you gain increased poison DC.
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*Casts True Resurrection on Thread*
So, there's been some new releases that have came out since the last post. I'm not sure if Nagaji was a legal race back then either (I believe so but I could be wrong). So how can we build a poison based character more effectively?
For example, Dirty Tactics Toolbox added the following.
Poisons
*Red Tears poison (DC 15 injury, 1/round for 10 rounds, 1d6 bleed dmg, 50 gp)
*Addlemind (DC 15 ingested, 1/minute onset, 1/minute for 10 minutes, 1d2 Wis, Cure 2 saves, 75 gp)
*Laughing Gas (DC 12 inhaled, immediate onset, 1/round for 5 rounds, Dazed 1 round, Cure 1 save, 500 gp)
*Sap Will (DC 18 ingested, 5/minute onset, 1/minute for 10 minutes, -4 penalty to Will saves and Wisdom based skill checks for 1 minute, Cure 2 saves, 2,500 gp)
*Whisperwound (DC 20 ingested, 1/minute onset, 1 round, 1d6 Con, When attempting to cast a spell or speak above a whisper take 2d6dmg, Cure 1 save, 5,000 gp)
Feats
*Deep Toxin: When using a poisoned weapon to make a Vital Strike, increase poison's duraction by one frequency increment. Poison takes effect immediate and does not have an onset time. Prereqs: Vital Strike, BAB +6, Craft Poison 6 ranks or poison use class feature.
Powerful Poisoning: When damaging an opponent with a Power attack while using a poisoned weapon, you can forgo the bonus damage from Power Attack to increase the save DC of the poison by 1. When BAB reaches +4, and every +4 therafter, bonus to poison's save DC increase by an additional 1. This can't cause the save DC to exceed 15 + 1/2 your character level. Prereqs: Power Attack, Craft Poison 3 ranks or poison use class feature.
Rage Poisoner Powers
*Enhance Venom: Add Con mod to DC of poisons delivered via Viper's Kiss or Viper's Breath. Must have both of those rage powers to take this.
*Viper's Breath: While holding a dose of poison in mouth, exhale 15-foot cone of inhaled poison. Everyone in area must make save vs Poison's DC - 4 or suffer effects with immediate onset. Must have Viper's Kiss to take this.
*Viper's Kiss - Can drink 1 dose of ingested poison as a move action if poison is in hand at start of turn. Can hold dose in mouth for number of rounds equal to Con mod with suffering harmful effects. Next successful bite applies poison with immediate onset; this consumes the dose. Must have a bite attack (at least when raging) to select this rage power.
Discoveries
*Poisoned Explosive, level 4: Apply dose of contact or injury poison to a bomb. If the poisoned bomb hits its target, bomb deals damage as normal, but the target must also succeed at a saving throw against the poison or be affected by the poison. Poisoned Explosive doesn't stack with other discoveries that modify bombs.
Btw, it seems that Daggermark Poisoner prestige class is not a PFS legal option and it also looks like the new Alchemist Archetype "Toxicant" is not legal either. Any other books add more stuff to our arsenal since August of 2014?
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I've got two build ideas in mind, tell me what you think.
Class – Alchemist
Race – Nagaji
Deity - Norgorber
Traits -
* Poisonous Slayer (religion)
* FREE
Stats -
Str: 17 (+2 racial included)
Dex: 14
Con: 14
Int: 12 (-2 racial included)
Wis: 12
Cha: 9 (+2 racial included)
7,5,5,5,2,-4 (20pt stat buy, couldn't figure out how to qualify for Method to the Madness discovery but if it's possible to get working in PFS then Nagaji wouldn't suck so bad.)
1) Alchemist 1: Bab +0 | Poison Focus (lvl 1)
2) Alchemist 2: Bab +1 | Concentrate Poison (discovery)
3) Alchemist 3: Bab +2 | Two-Weapon Fighting (lvl 3)
4) Alchemist 4: Bab +3 | Poisoned Explosive (discovery), +1 Dex
5) Alchemist 5: Bab +3 | Power Attack (5)
6) Alchemist 6: Bab +4 | Sticky Poison (discovery)
7) Alchemist 7: Bab +5 | Powerful Poisoning (lvl 7)
8) Alchemist 8: Bab +6/+1 | Celestial Poisons (discovery), +1 Str
9) Alchemist 9: Bab +6/+1 | Daggermark Lore (lvl 9)
10) Alchemist 10: Bab +7/+2 | Malignant Poison (discovery)
11) Alchemist 11: Bab +8/+3 | Weapon Focus: Dagger (lvl 11)
Main strength of Nagaji is the 1/2 DC to crafted Poisons favored class bonus which adds up to a +3 DC to all poisons at 9th level. Not sure how or if "Method to the Madness" is possible for a Nagaji to use Charisma instead of Int for Extracts.
Class – Alchemist
Race – Human
Deity - Norgorber
Traits -
* Poisonous Slayer (religion)
* FREE
Stats -
Str: 7
Dex: 18 (+2 racial included)
Con: 14
Int: 16
Wis: 13
Cha: 7
-4,10,5,10,3,-4 (20pt stat buy, couldn't figure out how to qualify for Method to the Madness discovery but if it's possible to get working in PFS then Nagaji wouldn't suck so bad.)
1) Alchemist 1: Bab +0 | Poison Focus (lvl 1), Weapon Finesse (human)
2) Alchemist 2: Bab +1 | Concentrate Poison (discovery)
3) Alchemist 3: Bab +2 | Two-Weapon Fighting (lvl 3)
4) Alchemist 4: Bab +3 | Poisoned Explosive (discovery), +1 Dex
5) Alchemist 5: Bab +3 | Power Attack (5)
6) Alchemist 6: Bab +4 | Sticky Poison (discovery)
7) Alchemist 7: Bab +5 | Powerful Poisoning (lvl 7)
8) Alchemist 8: Bab +6/+1 | Celestial Poisons (discovery), +1 Dex
9) Alchemist 9: Bab +6/+1 | Daggermark Lore (lvl 9)
10) Alchemist 10: Bab +7/+2 | Malignant Poison (discovery)
11) Alchemist 11: Bab +8/+3 | Weapon Focus: Dagger (lvl 11)
Free feat is wasted with Weapon Finesse but should allow for more extracts and skill points than the Nagaji, albeit losing out on the Nagaji's FCB synergy.
Warning: I've never played an Alchemist in the 3 years of PFS I've attended so this is new territory for me. Maybe someone can help me with this build objective? Trying to get multiple attacks, use mutagens or extracts to increase Attack bonus, and hit enemies with multiple poisons to ramp up the DC quickly. I don't have Quickdraw in there but for daggers it may be mandatory, especially with many Poisoning Sheaths? Was also thinking of a 1 level dip in Zen Archer and poisoning arrows? Unfortunately Poisoning Sheaths wouldn't help with arrows though.
Deity I'm torn between Norgorber's +1atk with poisoned weapon or Ghlaunder's +1 to poison DC for two poisons listed in CRB. There may be some other feats that are useful? I'm not sure since I have little to no experience with Alchemists.
No idea if there's a good second trait to grab for an Alchemist specializing in poisons. Also, maybe it would be more beneficial to multiclass Zen Archer or Fighter etc after 6th level Alchemist? I'm not sure where the sweet spot is for Alchemist specializing in poisons or if it's just best to keep leveling Alchemist to 12 in PFS. All that I've provided I believe is legal in PFS and is what I'm basing my builds off of since I'm wanting to make a poisoner for PFS.
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Well, as a good rule of thumb since multiples of the same poison stack and both increase duration and the DC, the crafting checks made logically can be increased by +2 for the poison with a +50% increase in it's duration as well.
For Example
Black Adder Venom Normally a DC 11 Fortitude save (so it has a Craft DC of 11)
To make it a DC 13 Poison turns it into a Fort Save DC of 13, Increases the Duration to 1 per round for 9 Rounds (not the usual 6), But the Damage effect would remain the same 1d2 Con, with a Cure of 1 Save.
At higher levels you could make the poisons much harder to resist and increase it's duration, but overall the Damage Effect, Cure Effect, and Type of how afflicted don't change without Class features.
This Logic after reviewing with another GM the Chapter on Poisons in the Core Book on Pages 557-558 do make sense and can be used that way with the same 5% chance if you don't have Poison Use to cause yourself some major issues.
Currently used this in PF: Giant Slayer book one to kill several Orcs with their own dinner.
Ah Loki :3 Such a fun Sorcerer character
However I do remember there are more limits on Crafting in PFS, the lack of allowing Crafting feats and skills, So you'd have to have a GM that would allow NPC's to craft the poisons with the Higher DC's and set a new price for the harder to resist poison version as well.
But all in all it shows I believe mechanic wise, making poisons harder to resist by taking multiple doses and "boiling them down" into a single dose that's more concentrated in form.
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It appears that the Veneficus Witch archetype is PFS legal. Not sure if going the full distance with Witch or if going 2 levels of Witch with rest in Alchemist is better. Looks like you could do a Misfortune + Toxic Words combo to poison someone, then cackle. From the looks though it appears that the Hex may get resisted easily later on since the DC is partially determined by Witch class level.
Do we have something effective here or is it giving up more than the benefits that Alchemist is providing?
The guide seems to be abandoned, so I made a new guide
The guide seems to be abandoned, so I made a new guideShiny. Not needed but convient. would be to add source info for equipment etc. since some I coudln't find by googling around. (like poison belcher or hollow caltrops()
also snakebite dagger is a good poison weapon too
where does potent concations say CRB poisons only? I haven't seen anything about that yet. so I missed something?
Snakebite Dagger is not society legal, though. I'll consider expanding the guide.
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Snakebite Dagger is not society legal, though. I'll consider expanding the guide.The guide seems to be abandoned, so I made a new guideShiny. Not needed but convient. would be to add source info for equipment etc. since some I coudln't find by googling around. (like poison belcher or hollow caltrops()
also snakebite dagger is a good poison weapon too
where does potent concations say CRB poisons only? I haven't seen anything about that yet. so I missed something?
Which guide were you referring to? Mine or another?
Which guide were you referring to? Mine or another?Snakebite Dagger is not society legal, though. I'll consider expanding the guide.The guide seems to be abandoned, so I made a new guideShiny. Not needed but convient. would be to add source info for equipment etc. since some I coudln't find by googling around. (like poison belcher or hollow caltrops()
also snakebite dagger is a good poison weapon too
where does potent concations say CRB poisons only? I haven't seen anything about that yet. so I missed something?
The OPs guide seemed old, so I made a new one, link in my post.
