The Godsrain Prophecies Part Eight

Wednesday, March 27, 2024

One of the theories that I intend to run by my Lady in my compilation of these so-called Godsrain Prophecies is that they may be warnings of some kind. This is a relatively new addition to my admittedly large list of potential reasons for their existence, which range from sensible hypotheses to outlandish theories, including one recent concern that this has all been a test by my Lady to discern whether I am trustworthy and analytical enough to handle some of her more complex research needs. I know she would never do such a thing, in truth, but after a particularly vivid dream (involving my being back in one of Lorminos’s classes and asked to deliver a talk about a research paper I had somehow forgotten to do), my anxiety briefly took hold.

The warning theory is of particular interest to me because it reflects an ongoing scholarly debate about the ability to prevent a true prophecy. As noted in Beyond Aroden (which I believe I have already mentioned in these pages), there are some who believe in the Fate’s Chain theory, which holds that any action taken to prevent a foretelling only hastens its speed and effects. Conversely, others believe that all prophecy presents the opportunity to exert free will. In the words of one notorious scholar, “those who lie down in front of the hooves of prophecy instead of taking the reins of their lives deserve to be trampled to dust, even if only metaphorically.” Fiery words, and ones I am not sure I believe, but given the gravity of this particular set of prophecies, I do like the idea that this might be an opportunity to shift the course of the future.

–Yivali, Apprentice Researcher for the Lady of Graves




The Death of Desna

The thing about journeys, especially the good ones, was how easy it was to lose track of the past. Hard to move forward while looking behind you. Desna had always believed that. Each new night, each new step, had something new to offer up—a bit of knowledge to excite her, a dark horizon to invite her, a way for love to keep her grounded as she wandered from place to place.

But something else was out there. A threat that she’d forgotten from the void between the stars, seeking only to expand its brutal, ceaseless silence. Not an enemy that could be caught or stopped forever, but something she’d held at bay as it consumed star after star, by making them anew as she had done since the beginning. Back then she’d set the stars like jewels, each a perfect piece of art, and now they were a chorus that only she could truly hear, gentle bells that softly chimed and brought new hope to dreamers.

Except with so much journeying, she’d let the task slide down her list, forgetting to replace the stars that steadily winked out. She hadn’t heard their quiet ringing slowly growing quieter, as something more than silence brought new fury to its form. And by the time it reached her ear, that music wasn’t quite as rich, and starlight twinkled that much less, and butterflies flapped weakly. Absence had turned to abscess turned to deep vulnerability, and what was of the past became the killer of the present. In one fell swoop of emptiness, no longer held back by her lights, something of the Dark Tapestry she thought she’d left behind took her and Cynosure as one, and with her all the stars that filled the skies above Golarion.

Desna was loved by many, and all stepped up to play a part and try to build a new world in the space left by her death. Cayden Cailean raised cups “to Desna and to freedom” (though he stayed still for many months, sometimes with Kurgess by his side, drinking to his memories and running up his tab). Shelyn offered welcome to those who sang in Desna’s name, collecting songs and poems so she would not be forgotten. (And when they sounded out of tune, as if something was missing, she called them Desnal melodies and blessed those who repeated them, ignoring art’s new promise for the haunting elegies). Sarenrae sought her vengeance but had no one to strike out against, and so she turned to healing in its place (by never letting hurt inside, and building walls around her heart she dared Shelyn to climb).

No one could prove the daytime light was any different than before, but even on the fairest day, there was something in the air—a stagnant sort of thickness that weighed upon the spine. Scouts moved slowly, and travelers lingered though they knew to hurry (to get themselves to safety long before the starless night). With no means by which to navigate, sailors called off voyages, reduced to tiny odysseys that kept the shore in sight. And while the feeling dissipated, slowly easing day by day, everything about the world felt dormant for a time.

Even as the pace picked up, no stars returned to fill the sky. At night, only the moon shone down, and paths forward could change in ways unlucky and impossible; more often did travelers disappear from the shadowed roads ahead. And while some blamed her ancient nemesis, Ghlaunder, who was emboldened by Desna’s demise, or Zon-Kuthon, who reveled in the new depth of the darkness, only Desna would have known that what killed her waited, determining its next advance, growing in the spaces left within a starless night.

An array of 20 portraits depicting the gods of the Pathfinder setting. Asmodeus, Cayden Cailean, Desna, Erastil, Nethys, Pharasma, Urgathoa, and Zon-Kuthon’s portraits have been marked “safe.”

Do the stars and their keeper, Desna, truly protect the Universe from some fell threat that hides in the darkness beyond them? May the stars shine forever, if so!





The Dark Tapestry? It has been some time since I thought about that void of space, which has long been reported to be the home of godlike beings far beyond my comprehension. Maybe this is why I am the most intrigued about Desna’s seeming knowledge of the place and its dangers. It is the first I am hearing of a potential connection, though that may simply be because I do not attend the right discussion groups. Whether or not this prophecy turns out to be true (or, again, maybe a warning that my Lady might be able to give to Desna to prevent this outcome), I will add a note about the possible link between Desna and the Dark Tapestry to my collected papers covering her works as a deity. I am not sure when or if I will have the time to publish any of the works I have begun to write, or if there will be room in my papers for all of the data I now have, but I am glad that I have at least begun collecting information. If these prophecies make nothing else completely clear, my own takeaway is this: it is important to understand what you know (and don’t) about the gods.


About the Author

Erin Roberts has been thrilled to be able to contribute a few small threads to the fabric of Golarion in the pages of books like Lost Omens Firebrands, Lost Omens Highhelm, and Lost Omens Travel Guide. In addition to her work for Paizo, she freelances across the TTRPG world (and was selected as a Diana Jones Award Emerging Designer Program Winner in 2023), has had fiction published in magazines including Asimov’s, Clarkesworld, and The Dark, and talks about writing every week on the Writing Excuses podcast. Catch up with her latest at linktr.ee/erinroberts.

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ornathopter wrote:
I'm not sure that 'rovagug is an unfitting source for Exemplar powers so he can't die' works - my impression was that the Iconic Exemplar got hit by some god blood, but that that was a god who'd just died in the fighting, some random divinity fighting some other divinity, not the one that started the war. And that that was only that character's origin, and that other exemplars could be demigods or drink from a sacred spring or any sort of thing.

The iconic exemplar did get his power from a different source. He was battling a demon, and its blood gave him some of its divine power, turning him into an exemplar and also a fiendish nephilim.

You're also correct that exemplars can gain their powers from multiple different sources. They're basically folkhero the class.
My argument was that Rovagug specifically has been shown to have really, really awful effects on things around it when it bleeds or bits of it slough off. I'll admit, I can't find the person who said the Godsrain was going to lead to an increase in exemplars now, but if that is true--and I think it is--then Rovagug seems like an odd choice to have be the one bleeding over everything, unless the goal is to have loads of Rovagug Lites running around.

Edit: I like the idea that Gorum's dying might be what causes the war to happen, or makes it happen harder. Urgathoa and Nethys have both showed that a deity's passing makes their portfolio act wonkily, so him biting it could lead to gods who may not normally be willing to fight suddenly think it's a great idea.


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I would be so happy if this is some kind of Veiled Master scheme against the gods.


Perpdepog wrote:
ornathopter wrote:
I'm not sure that 'rovagug is an unfitting source for Exemplar powers so he can't die' works - my impression was that the Iconic Exemplar got hit by some god blood, but that that was a god who'd just died in the fighting, some random divinity fighting some other divinity, not the one that started the war. And that that was only that character's origin, and that other exemplars could be demigods or drink from a sacred spring or any sort of thing.
The iconic exemplar did get his power from a different source. He was battling a demon, and its blood gave him some of its divine power, turning him into an exemplar and also a fiendish nephilim.

While I quite agree with the assessment that Exemplars can (or at least should be able to) gain their power from a variety of sources, I don't recall the source of Nahoa's divine spark being quite so explicit.

Certainly the demon's envenomed talons are what transformed him into a nephilim, but at that point he was already doing battle with a great demon in the sky. Whatever gave Nahoa his divine spark (be it the great demon or otherwise) is never explicitly stated in the story, so while it could well be that the 'power' he took from the demon's venom was both spark and unholy essence, I don't think we should chalk it up as confirmed that demon venom can make you an exemplar.

Nahoa Bio from War of Immortals Playtest:
Nahoa is a young human man of the Olehala people, one of the four great voyaging nations of the Okaiyo Ocean that spans Tian Xia and Arcadia. Born on the rainy side of his island, Nahoa grew up digging canals for his family’s taro farm, taking care of his younger sisters, and ensuring his village never lost the yearly stone-hurling championship. Though he wanted nothing more than an easy life, Nahoa was Called to exchange his digging stick for a warrior’s spear when a great demon returned, as it had for decades, to prey on his home. He faced the beast high in the sky, and even as his spear pierced it, its talons dug into his flesh. Rather than succumb to the creature’s venom, Nahoa claimed its power as his own, becoming a nephilim in the process. He crashed, far from the Okaiyo, where he would meet a Varki woman and set off on a quest across a distant Inner Sea.

Dark Archive

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Sidenote, the discourse involving which god is going to die is interesting because it showcases people's misunderstandings or biases against specific gods xD

Like, people are really quick to throw under bus specific gods they have beef with and that's funny to me because everyone presents it like as if it was common knowledge and really obvious to everyone


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I'll throw Aroden under the bus if I please, just like I did a hundred years ago!

*the courtroom gasps*


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Returning because I found an explicit reference. Nahoa gets 'hit by a gobbet of godstuff that falls out of the sky when a god is ripped in half'. This came up in the Pathfinder Playtest Announcement stream on Twitch about 7 months ago around 28:40


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See, my marker's on a deity I actually like and who I think enriches the setting, even if she has her issues.

Because a collective shrug at a deity's demise is not, to my thinking, the desired reaction here.

For example- I have not seen anyone passionately defend the likes of Irori or Gorum or Torag, which means, yes, you might be able to bin one of them with minimal ripples, but is the death of a god something you want to have create minimal ripples?


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Rovagug is my guess as his death triggers an end to the uneasy truce the gods had to keep him imprisoned and a rash of wars break out with godly avatars being seen, slain, and rise again.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I have nothing but respect for my number one choice, and I even think that the amount of love for Sarenrae could make it a contentious or difficult choice.

I just firmly believe that telling stories set in casmeron and the Kelesh empire are going to be much easier when the stability of that region is flipped on its head and that is a little hard to do with Sarenrae worship entrenched so heavily across the entire region. She is too kind and merciful and good for an entire population that worships her to fracture too violently, at least while she is still alive. The cult of the dawn flower was Errata’d out of existence because it was too much of a disservice to her and her ideals. It is the largest nation in Golarion, so it seems like a prime candidate to draw into a war and create a wonderful setting for adventurers to explore, but that is going to be hard to do with the church of Sarenrae so well established and unblemishedly kind and merciful (which should not be undermined while it is still directed by her teachings).

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Gorum is actually rather popular in some circles, but that circles isn't paizo forums :p

Thing is that meat head god of colossal metallic titan thing is very heavy metal cover album type of taste


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It occurs to me to wonder... are the people of Tian Xia even going to know who the dead god is, or are they going to wake up one day with a colossal divine war raging in the heavens and hells and have no idea who started it?

If we accept the theory that Shelyn is off the table because we've already seen a glimpse of what if she goes off her game (twice now) and she can't be killed without ZK, that leaves Abadar, Lamashtu, and Irori for deities that appear in both Core 20 lineups...

Food for thought!


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Sibelius Eos Owm wrote:
It occurs to me to wonder... are the people of Tian Xia even going to know who the dead god is, or are they going to wake up one day with a colossal divine war raging in the heavens and hells and have no idea who started it?

Since their core 20 isn't the Core 20, I think we can safely assume they potentially lose a deity or two from their own geographic pantheon without it having to be one of the baseline 20 from the core rules.

After all, southern Garund isn't exactly a major epicenter for each remaining faith either.

Iblydos, Casmaron, Vudra, Arcadia...

I doubt anyone's getting out of this without a bit of divine mayhem.


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Tian Xia is a place with a lot of dieters outside the game’s core 20. There are no promises about the survival of any gods outside the core 20. It will be pretty easy to include the death of gods from most other regions that could be a very big deal with out touching the core 20 ones.

Grand Lodge

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Cole Deschain wrote:

See, my marker's on a deity I actually like and who I think enriches the setting, even if she has her issues.

Because a collective shrug at a deity's demise is not, to my thinking, the desired reaction here.

For example- I have not seen anyone passionately defend the likes of Irori or Gorum or Torag, which means, yes, you might be able to bin one of them with minimal ripples, but is the death of a god something you want to have create minimal ripples?

I think that's a valid choice. I think that there's a possibility, though, that they're looking to prune an option that has less impact to bring in an option that has more impact. For example, losing Gorum and gaining Arazni gives you a warrior deity who is more fun to play with, has more dramatic angles, and has chemistry with multiple other deities.

(I actually rather like Irori, even if the right moment to use a character who venerates him has not come for me yet, and I'd be a little annoyed if he was the one who bites it. I see him as a thorn in the side of two of my favorite gods - Cayden Cailean and Iomedae - being someone who sees the former as a shiftless drunk and pricks the self-importance of the latter)


Kittyburger wrote:
magnuskn wrote:
Hurk. Saranrae getting more certain to be the one gets killed off every week. :-/ I don't know how to deal with that, if it really happens.
I'm thinking Sarenrae and Iomedae are PROBABLY safe, because they have the advantage of being deities associated with the two most significant religious Iconic characters, Kyra (Cleric of Sarenrae) and Seoni (Champion (Paladin) of Iomedae).

I actually still think Iomedae will be the one to bite the dust.


Honestly at this point I'm just going to assume all deities are either safe or they will all die & the world will go to chaos.

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Unikatze wrote:
Kittyburger wrote:
magnuskn wrote:
Hurk. Saranrae getting more certain to be the one gets killed off every week. :-/ I don't know how to deal with that, if it really happens.
I'm thinking Sarenrae and Iomedae are PROBABLY safe, because they have the advantage of being deities associated with the two most significant religious Iconic characters, Kyra (Cleric of Sarenrae) and Seoni (Champion (Paladin) of Iomedae).
I actually still think Iomedae will be the one to bite the dust.

So far, with the sole exception of Erastil, the gods who have been marked safe are the ones with the strongest ties to existing plotlines or who are recognizable as symbols of the property as a whole (I include Nethys in the latter category because of how crucial Archive of Nethys is to understanding and playing the game)). Iomedae sits at the intersection of both circles.

I'm treating the gods as any other character for this purpose - yeah, you might SAY that anybody can be killed at any time and nobody is safe, but if Captain Kirk, Mr. Spock, Dr. McCoy, and Ensign Johnny are beaming down to a planet, you can damn sure bet that Ensign Johnny's the one who's not making it back.

Acquisitives

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Sanityfaerie wrote:
Benjamin Tait wrote:
Kobold Catgirl wrote:
What's your theory, Benjamin?
Generally noticing a pattern, the first five prophecies were from rows 3, 4, 2, 5, 1. So far we've had gods for rows 3, 4 and 2. The gods on the same row have not only been adjacent to each other but have been able to connect to the row adjacent to it through the "safe" gods (e.g. Desna allows row 2 to connect to row 3 via Nethys). If this pattern is accurate, the next two would be Lamashtu and Iomedae. I wouldn't mind being wrong, and I know it sounds insane, but so far it's working out.

Calling it now. The next two prophecies are going to be Gozreh and Irori... just to mess with us.

pattern pattern pattern pattern pattern pattern pattern NOPE!

nah. Gozreh gonna get GOT.

Acquisitives

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Kittyburger wrote:
Unikatze wrote:
Kittyburger wrote:
magnuskn wrote:
Hurk. Saranrae getting more certain to be the one gets killed off every week. :-/ I don't know how to deal with that, if it really happens.
I'm thinking Sarenrae and Iomedae are PROBABLY safe, because they have the advantage of being deities associated with the two most significant religious Iconic characters, Kyra (Cleric of Sarenrae) and Seoni (Champion (Paladin) of Iomedae).
I actually still think Iomedae will be the one to bite the dust.

So far, with the sole exception of Erastil, the gods who have been marked safe are the ones with the strongest ties to existing plotlines or who are recognizable as symbols of the property as a whole (I include Nethys in the latter category because of how crucial Archive of Nethys is to understanding and playing the game)). Iomedae sits at the intersection of both circles.

I'm treating the gods as any other character for this purpose - yeah, you might SAY that anybody can be killed at any time and nobody is safe, but if Captain Kirk, Mr. Spock, Dr. McCoy, and Ensign Johnny are beaming down to a planet, you can damn sure bet that Ensign Johnny's the one who's not making it back.

not Ensign Johnny?!?!?


Benjamin Tait wrote:
Kobold Catgirl wrote:
What's your theory, Benjamin?
Generally noticing a pattern, the first five prophecies were from rows 3, 4, 2, 5, 1. So far we've had gods for rows 3, 4 and 2. The gods on the same row have not only been adjacent to each other but have been able to connect to the row adjacent to it through the "safe" gods (e.g. Desna allows row 2 to connect to row 3 via Nethys). If this pattern is accurate, the next two would be Lamashtu and Iomedae. I wouldn't mind being wrong, and I know it sounds insane, but so far it's working out.

Looking back at this thought... it's not quite enough of a pattern for me to put faith in it yet, but I'll admit that if next week is either Iomedae or Lamashtu, I'll be expecting the final week to be the other.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Sanityfaerie wrote:
Benjamin Tait wrote:
Kobold Catgirl wrote:
What's your theory, Benjamin?
Generally noticing a pattern, the first five prophecies were from rows 3, 4, 2, 5, 1. So far we've had gods for rows 3, 4 and 2. The gods on the same row have not only been adjacent to each other but have been able to connect to the row adjacent to it through the "safe" gods (e.g. Desna allows row 2 to connect to row 3 via Nethys). If this pattern is accurate, the next two would be Lamashtu and Iomedae. I wouldn't mind being wrong, and I know it sounds insane, but so far it's working out.
Looking back at this thought... it's not quite enough of a pattern for me to put faith in it yet, but I'll admit that if next week is either Iomedae or Lamashtu, I'll be expecting the final week to be the other.

There could also be a combo breaker and we could get Norg and Sarenrae.

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Not me having an internal panic that I said something I wasn't supposed to! To clarify, we havent spoken about a specific chronology for what happens, BUT... *pause for schill* the stream on the 16th hosted by yours truly will shed lots of interesting details on things.

Liberty's Edge

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Jonathan Morgantini wrote:


Not me having an internal panic that I said something I wasn't supposed to! To clarify, we havent spoken about a specific chronology for what happens, BUT... *pause for schill* the stream on the 16th hosted by yours truly will shed lots of interesting details on things.

<.<

>.>

Kittyburger wrote:
...and Sarenrae.

I thought it was confirmed we'd only get one of the Prismatic Ray for these?


Sibelius Eos Owm wrote:
Returning because I found an explicit reference. Nahoa gets 'hit by a gobbet of godstuff that falls out of the sky when a god is ripped in half'. This came up in the Pathfinder Playtest Announcement stream on Twitch about 7 months ago around 28:40

okay I know this is probably a minor god but

imagine if it's gozreh. getting torn in half means something very different for them.


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I think Rovagug isn't dying, because they have actually been dead for years. Only Asmodeus knows, and he keeps that secret locked up tight, for everything he's built crumbles when he loses that leverage. But Norgorber has a habit of finding everyone's secrets...


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Pronate11 wrote:
I think Rovagug isn't dying, because they have actually been dead for years. Only Asmodeus knows, and he keeps that secret locked up tight, for everything he's built crumbles when he loses that leverage. But Norgorber has a habit of finding everyone's secrets...

...okay so we're only losing ONE out of the Core 20, but in my Agatha Christie But It's Golarion theory, Norgorber is the SECOND death. It's a common plotline; there's a mysterious death, people investigate, one of the "investigators" finds something out (which might or might not be related to the original death) and tries to blackmail someone and gets murdered for it, now there are two mysterious deaths.


You know, while Grandmother Spider killing Rovagug is wholly a joke--"himself" and "the Starstone" feel like much more compelling theories--I am increasingly wondering about her. Who wrote these prophecies? Maybe it was someone who wanted to encourage people to view the gods as vulnerable. Someone who gleefully undermines the gods' authority and encourages her followers to write their own destinies, even.

I don't think GMS is heading into a villain arc, but that doesn't mean she won't have her part to play. For instance, I will be shocked if Achaekek survives this war. The War of Immortals seemingly goes against everything he stands for. So what's Grandmother Spider going to do if her beloved brother is slain?

If the gods are going to war, might it be over the role of divinity itself in a world without Rovagug? Should the gods be distant, or active? Should divinity be ineffable, or highly attainable? The gods themselves do not seem to agree about this.


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So... here's a thought about Rovagug. Why does everyone assume he'll be so impossible to kill? He's been bound under the earth for a very long time, under conditions that make it rather harder than he might like to maintain his preferred daily exercise regimen. He's getting at least a trickle of worship energy through, sure, but he isn't getting much. His followers are pretty few in number, and the ones he does have are often just in it for the power he gives them. Really, I'd expect that his faithful consume more resources than they produce for him, on average. He's not investing that divine energy as a way of gaining more divine energy. He's doing it in the hopes that one of those crazy cults gets lucky and can free him.

He's also bleeding - and it's not just bleeding blood. He literally bleeds out monsters. That, too, is not a calorie-neutral behavior... and he hasn't actually eaten any new worlds in *ages*.

So maybe he's... diminished. Instead of the titan that required four gods working in concert just to seal it away, *after* it had been defeated, we have something tat's much more reasonably on-tier with the rest of their peers int eh Core 20. Makes it a lot easier to kill.

Possibly makes it thin enough to finally slip through the bars of its prison, too.

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Sanityfaerie wrote:
Possibly makes it thin enough to finally slip through the bars of its prison, too.

Rovagug escaping its prison ?

Torag, Asmodeus and the entity formerly known as Dou-Bral (aka Zon-Kuthon), likely with Gorum in tow, would like a word with you.


Sibelius Eos Owm wrote:
Returning because I found an explicit reference. Nahoa gets 'hit by a gobbet of godstuff that falls out of the sky when a god is ripped in half'. This came up in the Pathfinder Playtest Announcement stream on Twitch about 7 months ago around 28:40

Ah, thanks for the clarification. I was assuming it was the demon's essence that gave Nahoa his powers because of the sentence, "Rather than succumb to the creature’s venom, Nahoa claimed its power as his own, becoming a nephilim in the process."

Grand Lodge

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Kobold Catgirl wrote:

You know, while Grandmother Spider killing Rovagug is wholly a joke--"himself" and "the Starstone" feel like much more compelling theories--I am increasingly wondering about her. Who wrote these prophecies? Maybe it was someone who wanted to encourage people to view the gods as vulnerable. Someone who gleefully undermines the gods' authority and encourages her followers to write their own destinies, even.

I don't think GMS is heading into a villain arc, but that doesn't mean she won't have her part to play. For instance, I will be shocked if Achaekek survives this war. The War of Immortals seemingly goes against everything he stands for. So what's Grandmother Spider going to do if her beloved brother is slain?

If the gods are going to war, might it be over the role of divinity itself in a world without Rovagug? Should the gods be distant, or active? Should divinity be ineffable, or highly attainable? The gods themselves do not seem to agree about this.

I think the only way Achaekek can get killed is if he gets a girlfriend.

Liberty's Edge

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Just realized that, since Pharasma is safe, she will get to judge the dead deities after they meet their fate.


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Rovagug's about to make things at the Boneyard super awkward.


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Kobold Catgirl wrote:
Rovagug's about to make things at the Boneyard super awkward.

Everyone knows all Rovagugs go to heaven.


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Kobold Catgirl wrote:
Rovagug's about to make things at the Boneyard super awkward.

Look. It was the only way he could get the chance to ask Pharasma out on a date.

Grand Lodge

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Saedar wrote:
Kobold Catgirl wrote:
Rovagug's about to make things at the Boneyard super awkward.
Look. It was the only way he could get the chance to ask Pharasma out on a date.

My birthday is in Rova, and I feel like that explains so much... I too am socially awkward and would probably destroy reality if I asked someone out on a date.


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Saedar wrote:
Kobold Catgirl wrote:
Rovagug's about to make things at the Boneyard super awkward.
Look. It was the only way he could get the chance to ask Pharasma out on a date.

Who could have guessed that this whole time, Rovagug was just trying to wipe out half of all existence to get Death to notice him?


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Jan Caltrop wrote:
Pronate11 wrote:
I think Rovagug isn't dying, because they have actually been dead for years. Only Asmodeus knows, and he keeps that secret locked up tight, for everything he's built crumbles when he loses that leverage. But Norgorber has a habit of finding everyone's secrets...
...okay so we're only losing ONE out of the Core 20, but in my Agatha Christie But It's Golarion theory, Norgorber is the SECOND death. It's a common plotline; there's a mysterious death, people investigate, one of the "investigators" finds something out (which might or might not be related to the original death) and tries to blackmail someone and gets murdered for it, now there are two mysterious deaths.

So, since in that genre of mystery pretty much EVERYONE has some dark (or "dark") secrets that get revealed over the course of the thing, lemme look at the others....

Iomedae has nothing to hide about Iomedae's mortal life, nor what she's done as a deity. However, she's not sure they're the same person; she has a nagging suspicion, with no way to prove it one way or another, that she has the paladin's memories without ever having BEEN the paladin.

"Sarenrae" is one half of a dual-aspected deity; the other half is repulsive to her. It might be an "evil opposite" situation, it might be a "you're a monster for thinking pineapple should/shouldn't go on pizza" situation.

Abadar had a "civilization (my definition of it) at any cost" phase. He's not proud of it; not for moral reasons, but because of the desperation it implied. He hasn't rejected any of the resources he'd used for it, and makes sure they're still functional every so often, just in case.

Irori once discovered something so terrible in a history that he erased every mention of it. He feels simultaneously justified and ashamed for doing it; but going against his own principles like that left a metaphysical scar on his very essence, a weakness that could be exploited if anyone knew of it.

Gozreh and Rovagug are (very) bitter exes.

Pharasma knows how and why Aroden died, and decided (of her own free will, not coerced by anyone) to keep it secret; if he was murdered, she knows who the killer is.

Aaaand then I ran out of steam for this.


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Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

A little speculation: I remember reading in another thread that Treerazer could have an important role in the upcoming events. This led to a hypothesis that Callistra or Torag, because of the proximity of Kyonin and Five Kings Mountains to Tanglebriar, could possibly be killed by Treerazer and empower his ascension to Abyssal lord/deity status.

This, IMO, could have a potential connection to the Prismatic Ray being affected in that Callistra has been presented as a close ally; for instance, in the story about Aolar, Lady of the Hunt, back in the Book of the Damned ("...only a fortunate series of treacheries among the gathering demonic horde caused the Coalition of Chaos to turn upon itself and collapse. Some believe that the treacheries were actually caused by a disguised Callistra... It was certainly only with the support of Callistra, Sarenrae, and Shelyn (all of whom had their own churches targeted by Aolar in the past) that Desna emerged from the scandal intact.").

Thin and conspiracy-minded, I'll admit.


Dragonchess Player wrote:

A little speculation: I remember reading in another thread that Treerazer could have an important role in the upcoming events. This led to a hypothesis that Callistra or Torag, because of the proximity of Kyonin and Five Kings Mountains to Tanglebriar, could possibly be killed by Treerazer and empower his ascension to Abyssal lord/deity status.

This, IMO, could have a potential connection to the Prismatic Ray being affected in that Callistra has been presented as a close ally; for instance, in the story about Aolar, Lady of the Hunt, back in the Book of the Damned ("...only a fortunate series of treacheries among the gathering demonic horde caused the Coalition of Chaos to turn upon itself and collapse. Some believe that the treacheries were actually caused by a disguised Callistra... It was certainly only with the support of Callistra, Sarenrae, and Shelyn (all of whom had their own churches targeted by Aolar in the past) that Desna emerged from the scandal intact.").

Thin and conspiracy-minded, I'll admit.

Hey! That's MY rampant Treerazer speculation, friendo! /s


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The Raven Black wrote:
Sanityfaerie wrote:
Possibly makes it thin enough to finally slip through the bars of its prison, too.

Rovagug escaping its prison ?

Torag, Asmodeus and the entity formerly known as Dou-Bral (aka Zon-Kuthon), likely with Gorum in tow, would like a word with you.

It would be a much diminished Rovagug, and the idea was that it wouldn't escape the prison for all that long.

But, you know, threatening the people who suggest that your work is imperfect doesn't actually make your work more perfect.


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I think the word they would like to have with an escaped Rovagug would be a panicked expletive.


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Pathfinder LO Special Edition, Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, PF Special Edition Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber
Kittyburger wrote:
magnuskn wrote:
Hurk. Saranrae getting more certain to be the one gets killed off every week. :-/ I don't know how to deal with that, if it really happens.
I'm thinking Sarenrae and Iomedae are PROBABLY safe, because they have the advantage of being deities associated with the two most significant religious Iconic characters, Kyra (Cleric of Sarenrae) and Seoni (Champion (Paladin) of Iomedae).

When and how did Seoni become a Champion? Last I heard, she's a Sorceress.


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Ed Reppert wrote:
Kittyburger wrote:
magnuskn wrote:
Hurk. Saranrae getting more certain to be the one gets killed off every week. :-/ I don't know how to deal with that, if it really happens.
I'm thinking Sarenrae and Iomedae are PROBABLY safe, because they have the advantage of being deities associated with the two most significant religious Iconic characters, Kyra (Cleric of Sarenrae) and Seoni (Champion (Paladin) of Iomedae).
When and how did Seoni become a Champion? Last I heard, she's a Sorceress.

Context clues can tell us they mean Seelah :)

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
keftiu wrote:
Ed Reppert wrote:
Kittyburger wrote:
magnuskn wrote:
Hurk. Saranrae getting more certain to be the one gets killed off every week. :-/ I don't know how to deal with that, if it really happens.
I'm thinking Sarenrae and Iomedae are PROBABLY safe, because they have the advantage of being deities associated with the two most significant religious Iconic characters, Kyra (Cleric of Sarenrae) and Seoni (Champion (Paladin) of Iomedae).
When and how did Seoni become a Champion? Last I heard, she's a Sorceress.
Context clues can tell us they mean Seelah :)

Yes, yes, I realized that mistake AFTER it was too late to edit that comment.


Ed Reppert wrote:
Kittyburger wrote:
magnuskn wrote:
Hurk. Saranrae getting more certain to be the one gets killed off every week. :-/ I don't know how to deal with that, if it really happens.
I'm thinking Sarenrae and Iomedae are PROBABLY safe, because they have the advantage of being deities associated with the two most significant religious Iconic characters, Kyra (Cleric of Sarenrae) and Seoni (Champion (Paladin) of Iomedae).
When and how did Seoni become a Champion? Last I heard, she's a Sorceress.

Well, with the reworks on Dragons and Sorcerer, who knows?

Maybe one of the Sorcery bloodlines is Draconic Champion?

Liberty's Edge

Sibelius Eos Owm wrote:

It occurs to me to wonder... are the people of Tian Xia even going to know who the dead god is, or are they going to wake up one day with a colossal divine war raging in the heavens and hells and have no idea who started it?

If we accept the theory that Shelyn is off the table because we've already seen a glimpse of what if she goes off her game (twice now) and she can't be killed without ZK, that leaves Abadar, Lamashtu, and Irori for deities that appear in both Core 20 lineups...

Food for thought!

The War of Immortals book will tell how the Exemplar met the Animist up north and they traveled in far away places seeing many wonderful / terrifying things. Maybe to find out what gave him his powers.

Liberty's Edge

zergtitan wrote:

Considering the pattern of a deity's death(If the mantle is not relinquished or taken shortly after) causes a "out of control moment" with a part of the portfolio without their guidance, and that their death starts or is part of a Planar War, with the developers have not said that the death causes a major effect on the material plane politically(besides the end of a faith) I have a strong Idea of who it might be.

I think Gorum kicks the bucket. Think of him as the Nuclear deterrent of the planar realms. the moment the god of war who can wreak anything is no longer there to "persuade" realms not to seek conflict, they will most certainly take up arms and act on old wounds and rivalries. Someone might even kill Gorum to make it easier to wage war.

I also think of the major 20 deities he is the least nuanced deity to have a religion for Meta-wise. all the other deities have multiple aspects that a cleric can follow making no two clerics the same. At the same time his tenets seems to demand that all his priests be warpriests and not cloistered clerics.

Both narrative-wise and Meta-wise Gorum is most certainly the deities whoses death would be the most effective to do. On top of that similar to how Arodens faithful flocked to Iomedae for support I can easily see many Gorumites flocking to a deity of the Abused and Dignity since other then conquest(Asmodeus), Justice(Iomedae), and liberation(Milani), the other reason why people fight is to defend their dignity and oppose or gain retribution for abuse.

so my money's on Gorum and I'll even put that down as an investment at the First Vault.

I can totally see the entity with long bright hair and the power of a million exploding suns (Sarenrae / the Sentry) secretly being possessed by its evil chaotic counterpart (Rovagug/ the Void) and ripping War (Gorum / Ares) in two.

Or would that be too close ?


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The Raven Black wrote:
I can totally see the entity with long bright hair and the power of a million exploding suns (Sarenrae / the Sentry) secretly being possessed by its evil chaotic counterpart (Rovagug/ the Void) and ripping War (Gorum / Ares) in two.

...and nothing of value was lost

Liberty's Edge

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Sanityfaerie wrote:
The Raven Black wrote:
I can totally see the entity with long bright hair and the power of a million exploding suns (Sarenrae / the Sentry) secretly being possessed by its evil chaotic counterpart (Rovagug/ the Void) and ripping War (Gorum / Ares) in two.
...and nothing of value was lost

Alexander / Phobos might not agree.

And I liked Marvel's Ares as a protagonist very much. Perfect CN god of war to me.

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