The Godsrain Prophecies Part Six

Wednesday, March 13, 2024

As I continue reading through the Godsrain “prophecies,” I have begun to develop a troubling new theory about their origin. I will admit up front that this idea may seem more in line with one of those Another Absalom tales of spies and skullduggery than a scholarly review (though I have always believed that those tales should be studied for their ability to keep the reader’s attention, something we researchers often do not do as successfully as we would like!), but I’ve noticed that several of the prophecies seem to strike at the core of what many think about the divine. This is not to say that gods cannot die, or falter, or fail in some way, but the more I read these documents, the more I can imagine negative outcomes that I might once have dismissed as distant possibilities. What if this is deliberate?

Perhaps the author of these works is no prophet at all, but someone who seeks to weaken what we understand of divinity. I am not certain who or what would seek that as an outcome, but any entity that benefits from faltering faith is one that cannot have the best interests of Golarion at heart. Still, if I am being candid, the thought of some mysterious villain appeals to me more than it probably should. Perhaps I simply wish to find a reason for these prophecies outside of any potential truth I might find in their pages. Or perhaps I have stumbled onto a workable theory. I will note the thought, but only as one of many I might bring to my Lady. False comfort can too often be found within visions of conspiracy.

–Yivali, Apprentice Researcher for the Lady of Graves




The Death of Nethys

Mind. Matter. Spirit. Life. Four essences. Four building blocks. Four cornerstones whose intersections shape the way that magic works. And in that four, two pairs that are too different to be joined together. Matter never blends with Spirit; Mind and Life remain apart. Nethys knows the truth of this, but never quite believes it fully. (Is he not the proof that there is power in duality?)

As the centuries progress, he keeps returning to this quandary, tells himself that he alone can meld the two opposing pairs. He can be the font of knowledge. He can give the world new magic. He can take the contradictions, put them through a transformation. He can start two new traditions. Mind and Body. Heart and Soul.

Does he succeed? Perhaps he does. Perhaps he stands awash with pride, his fingers trembling at the feeling, ready to share something of the magic he has wrought. But if he feels triumphant, it is only for a moment—a breath of jubilation as he soaks himself in magic, followed by a cry of horror as his body falls apart. Nethys, by sheer will and power, holds himself together briefly, fractures crawling down his arms, breaking him to pieces like a chunk of splintered glass. He remains alive just long enough to see the power of his folly, spreading from his fingers to the very building blocks of magic, tearing them asunder as his body turns to ash.

In an instant, magic changes—bends and rips and stretches thin, settling like a shredded cloth pulled tight across the world. Where it is torn, all magic ceases. Long-held items lose their power. Spells are nothing more than words. Spellcasters within these hollows lose all tether to their magic, even if they only cross the boundary in the aftermath. Some regain their skills with time, but others never quite recover, every magic word they utter turned to dust between their lips. Some don’t even make it that far, dying when the magic ends, falling from the skies above, losing shields that keep them safe, gulping down a healing potion turned to flavored water.

At first, the new uncertainty inspires mass devotion, but there is little solace from the other gods. Pharasma asks for a report. Irori swears to make it right. Their followers still cannot cast a single spell within the hollows. And those who lose the taste for magic, prayers dying in their mouth? They do not seem to gain a thing from all their dedication.

For those who never cared for magic, hollows are a place of refuge, leveling the playing field in favor of the fist and sword. Many flock who follow Nethys, loyal to his knowledge still, believing this to be some test that leads them to a new reward.

Many on Golarion relocate from their hollowed homes, fearing what it means to lose the magic in their lives. But travel is no easy thing, not even with the scout and map and herbal kits (now free of magical augmentations) that have become requirements for any trip outside. Rumors abound of hidden dangers scattered through the Great Beyond: places where the magic varies, strong one day and weak the next, turning one night’s cantrip to the morning’s deadly strike; villages consumed by all the magic stolen from the world, drowning in a power they have no way to unmake.

An array of 20 portraits depicting the gods of the Pathfinder setting. Asmodeus, Cayden Cailean, Erastil, Nethys, Pharasma, and Urgathoa’s portraits have been marked “safe.”

Magic is so fundamental to our reality that the thought of its absence or unreliability on a multiplanar scale is nearly as unfathomable as the concept of Nethys’s own ambition being magic’s undoing!


Magic has never been among my preferred subjects to study, but I now wish I’d learned more of it! It would help me to properly evaluate what, if anything, within this prophecy is truly feasible. Could one death (even the death of a god) create this level of chaos within such a fundamental part of life? This prophecy seems to indicate that magic is forever changed by Nethys’s actions, but even a disaster of the magnitude described seems unlikely to change fundamental principles of magic (a statement I would be much more convinced of were I sure that I fully understood them). While I doubt that this prophecy would come true, I am now curious if there are any projects that Nethys has undertaken that might lead to his attempting something on this scale. Perhaps I judged too quickly, and these are less dastardly plot than desperate warning? I need more information to be sure.





About the Author

Erin Roberts has been thrilled to be able to contribute a few small threads to the fabric of Golarion in the pages of books like Lost Omens Firebrands, Lost Omens Highhelm, and Lost Omens Travel Guide. In addition to her work for Paizo, she freelances across the TTRPG world (and was selected as a Diana Jones Award Emerging Designer Program Winner in 2023), has had fiction published in magazines including Asimov’s, Clarkesworld, and The Dark, and talks about writing every week on the Writing Excuses podcast. Catch up with her latest at linktr.ee/erinroberts.

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4 people marked this as a favorite.

There's also the kind of idea I'd had about "blocking the Force" from Star Wars, but it applies here too; it's not a "dead" zone, it's not "gone", it's just "jammed". Taken up with nonsense signals. In the same way you can't really type a coherent message if someone's also pressing random keys on your keyboard.


Ha! Called it - Nethys doesn't do much, but he's way too unique and interesting a deity, plus his split nature actually makes more sense with Holy and Unholy - he is both selfless and selfish, giving and taking, and so he is also neither, understanding the two sides without being of them.

Again, it comes off like a fable about him being unable to be his nature, and it destroys him - he tries to prove that the Essences can be dual and stronger for it like himself, and he ends up not only proving otherwise, he actually ends up negating all four with each other. My theory only grows.

Which makes me think the actual death is going to be someone who willingly does so to face their own fears...likely Iomedae, in that case.

EDIT: And of course, given who Nethys is, he's going to read this and promptly start experimenting with essence negation to see if he can control it.

Scarab Sages

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Perfectly fitting that Nethys is the author of his own destruction.


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Jan Caltrop wrote:
There's also the kind of idea I'd had about "blocking the Force" from Star Wars, but it applies here too; it's not a "dead" zone, it's not "gone", it's just "jammed". Taken up with nonsense signals. In the same way you can't really type a coherent message if someone's also pressing random keys on your keyboard.

Or if someone swaps all your keys around and you type-by-sight. What you're doing still makes perfect sense to you, and by rights should work, but the underlying outcomes of the instructions have been altered without your knowledge.

Nethys' death reminds me a lot of Worlds Without Number's magic system, the Legacy, a series of incredibly complex and subtle rules that govern reality and manipulating those rules is how you get spells, but those rules themselves are also open to change from potent enough forces, so what works at one time could no longer work in the present.


Errenor wrote:
CreepyShutIn wrote:

I've always been of the opinion that magic is as much a part of the world as gravity. Its absence is fundamentally impossible, at least without changing what the very universe looks like. If you take away matter, spirit, life, and mind, then what remains?

Magic is not "supernatural." It is natural. To be without it, and yet still exist at all, THAT is unnatural in the extreme, implying that you are made of something that the entire universe around you isn't.

I like the approach very much. I'd even say that any anti-magic and borked-magic areas in player-facing settings so much entangled in magic as Golarion are extremely bad idea, bad taste, not fun and must be actually forbidden. Yes, to hell with Alkenstar. Maybe even literally...

But, it still is very easy to imagine all these essences without magic. Like with gravity and electromagnetism. You are in the first and kind of exist because of the second. So what? Can you fly or shoot lasers from eyes? :)

You. I like you.

Yeah, I've never been a huge Alkenstar fan. The idea that the world is just like ours except with wizards stapled on haphazardly, that's irredeemably boring. It's also wildly inconsistent with a lot of what we actually see, since the world has a bunch of spirits and things, it has souls and ghosts. Do those go away in Alkenstar too?

I do disagree with the conclusion, mind. If gravity and electromagnetism vanished, we would disintegrate into loose sub-atomic particles. Same principle. The world can't exist without its four fundamentals, and magic is just the recognition of those fundamentals and means of directing them, same as boiling water to make steam.


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masda_gib wrote:
Alex Speidel wrote:
More like Deathys amirite
More like Nethysn't

Nomorethys?

Radiant Oath

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

As someone for whom Forgotten Realms' Spellplague was an incredibly traumatic event, the aftermath of Nethys' now non-canon death felt...surprisingly reassuring?

Like, it's good to know that while yes, things would be very difficult and dangerous for spellcasters in many places, especially as the hollows are first formed, it's a lot less destructive than how the Spellplague basically stated "in big cities with a lot of magical infrastructure it was essentially like a nuke going off, something the place could recover from but most of the NPCs you liked there died just statistically speaking."


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By contrast, I actually quite liked how this echoed some obscure Spellplague lore - namely that only the first year of things was explosive, and that much of the chaos of the event came from a following decade of widespread dead magic zones. Spellcasters had to redevelop magical theory from the ground up once more, because the old ways no longer worked.

Fun prophecy!


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The most interesting thing about this story for me is the acknowledgement from the narrator that parts of the story seem somewhat implausible... especially with the story seeming to go out of its way to call out a couple of gods and their followers as foolish and ineffectual, which is practically a running theme of these stories at this point.


The text does say that magic cease to exist only within the Hollow, which is large enough to be difficult to escape from, but not large enough that you couldn't relocate yourself to another place. I'm thinking like the same size as the mana waste, but strench longer, and on multiplanar level.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
CreepyShutIn wrote:
Errenor wrote:
CreepyShutIn wrote:

I've always been of the opinion that magic is as much a part of the world as gravity. Its absence is fundamentally impossible, at least without changing what the very universe looks like. If you take away matter, spirit, life, and mind, then what remains?

Magic is not "supernatural." It is natural. To be without it, and yet still exist at all, THAT is unnatural in the extreme, implying that you are made of something that the entire universe around you isn't.

I like the approach very much. I'd even say that any anti-magic and borked-magic areas in player-facing settings so much entangled in magic as Golarion are extremely bad idea, bad taste, not fun and must be actually forbidden. Yes, to hell with Alkenstar. Maybe even literally...

But, it still is very easy to imagine all these essences without magic. Like with gravity and electromagnetism. You are in the first and kind of exist because of the second. So what? Can you fly or shoot lasers from eyes? :)

You. I like you.

Yeah, I've never been a huge Alkenstar fan. The idea that the world is just like ours except with wizards stapled on haphazardly, that's irredeemably boring. It's also wildly inconsistent with a lot of what we actually see, since the world has a bunch of spirits and things, it has souls and ghosts. Do those go away in Alkenstar too?

I do disagree with the conclusion, mind. If gravity and electromagnetism vanished, we would disintegrate into loose sub-atomic particles. Same principle. The world can't exist without its four fundamentals, and magic is just the recognition of those fundamentals and means of directing them, same as boiling water to make steam.

I do have a counter to that. It's merely casting and the like that go away. The magic that animates constructs and golems continues to function in Alkenstar, even in Smokeside (hell, clockwork constructs are a commonplace thing there. And they aren't robots, magic was involved in their creation) . It'd be a bit like how there's still electricity within an EMF, it just prevents you from using it in any meaningful way! Nethys's anathema explicitly even points out that there is some kind of distinction between the mundane and the magical.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

I dunno, I saw the "weakest cantrip today tomorrow's deadly strike" and immediately thought...

"HEY, someone's played at a PF2 table!"

Liberty's Edge

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Violant wrote:
CreepyShutIn wrote:
Errenor wrote:
CreepyShutIn wrote:

I've always been of the opinion that magic is as much a part of the world as gravity. Its absence is fundamentally impossible, at least without changing what the very universe looks like. If you take away matter, spirit, life, and mind, then what remains?

Magic is not "supernatural." It is natural. To be without it, and yet still exist at all, THAT is unnatural in the extreme, implying that you are made of something that the entire universe around you isn't.

I like the approach very much. I'd even say that any anti-magic and borked-magic areas in player-facing settings so much entangled in magic as Golarion are extremely bad idea, bad taste, not fun and must be actually forbidden. Yes, to hell with Alkenstar. Maybe even literally...

But, it still is very easy to imagine all these essences without magic. Like with gravity and electromagnetism. You are in the first and kind of exist because of the second. So what? Can you fly or shoot lasers from eyes? :)

You. I like you.

Yeah, I've never been a huge Alkenstar fan. The idea that the world is just like ours except with wizards stapled on haphazardly, that's irredeemably boring. It's also wildly inconsistent with a lot of what we actually see, since the world has a bunch of spirits and things, it has souls and ghosts. Do those go away in Alkenstar too?

I do disagree with the conclusion, mind. If gravity and electromagnetism vanished, we would disintegrate into loose sub-atomic particles. Same principle. The world can't exist without its four fundamentals, and magic is just the recognition of those fundamentals and means of directing them, same as boiling water to make steam.

I do have a counter to that. It's merely casting and the like that go away. The magic that animates constructs and golems continues to function in Alkenstar, even in Smokeside (hell, clockwork constructs are a commonplace thing there. And they aren't robots, magic was involved in their...

Yes. Magic is a powerful force in Golarion but it is not the only one. And the text explicitly states that it is the building blocks of magic that are affected. The rest of the world still functions normally. But magic is indeed so widespread in Golarion that just these changes are enough to create apocalyptic results.

In fact, I really liked the post-apocalyptic feeling we had here for the people in the hollows.

And I really appreciate how the story was so well-written that we are all using the word "hollows" in this specific meaning without thinking twice about it.

Liberty's Edge

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Squiggit wrote:
The most interesting thing about this story for me is the acknowledgement from the narrator that parts of the story seem somewhat implausible... especially with the story seeming to go out of its way to call out a couple of gods and their followers as foolish and ineffectual, which is practically a running theme of these stories at this point.

New theory : these prophecies are actually written by someone with the power to see the possible futures that will follow the death of one of the Core20. And they are as disappointed as we are by the reactions of both deities and worshippers.

So they keep on flipping the pages until they find one deity whose death, while impactful, did not result in lost faith. And that is the canon version of the setting our PCs will be part of.

Which would fit nicely with the reassurance we got from the PFS team that PCs would not lose their abilities as a result of this divine death.


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So the line, "Perhaps the author of these works is no prophet at all, but someone who seeks to weaken what we understand of divinity," got me thinking, why would someone seek to use prophecy (known to fallible since Aroden's "death") as a means to undermine the divine. Then a thought occurred, what if the author's goal isn't to undermine the divine, but to further undermine the concept of prophecy via conflicting divine absurdities.

The question then becomes, why undermine something as unreliable as prophecy? Well there are gods that would seem to be protected by prophecy. Groetus can't die since he has to turn the lights out at the end of the universe. Pharasma can't die, she has to judge the final soul before Groetus arrives. Asmodeus can't die because he has to be desperate enough to use the key in a vain attempt to stop the end. And Rovagug can't die because he has to be set free by Asmodeus.

But what if this end scenario spoken of in the Concordance of Rivals is undermined? What if the future of the gods is no longer set in stone? All of them become vulnerable. We know Pharasma and Asmodeus are safe for now, even if their ultimate fates could come into question, and Groetus isn't a member of the 20 so his hypothetical death wouldn't address the hanging question. But Rovagug? Perhaps someone seeks to slay him by first removing the certainty of his survival as the bringer of the end of days by destroying the prophecy of his release. And with Rovagug's death shall come a war of the gods as they forget consequences exist for their actions now that boogeyman is slain forgetting that someone out there must have been capable of slaying the unslayable.

A different thought that I had was what if these things predate Aroden's death and the "true" final one will be Aroden's death and the upcoming divine death turns out to be a footnote in the prophecy of the end of prophecy. That idea probably isn't true as Iomedae has been mentioned in two of them (Erastil and Cayden Cailean) while Cheliax's connection to Asmodeus is mentioned in his death, so at least three of the prophecies take place in a world seemingly lacking Aroden, but I don't think there has been any mention of when these prophecies were written in-universe so I would consider timing of writing to still be a potential wildcard in their eventual truth.


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Violant wrote:
It'd be a bit like how there's still electricity within an EMF, it just prevents you from using it in any meaningful way!

Ok, what 'EMF' are you talking about? If it's electromagnetic field, firstly, it's always here and everywhere and secondly - electricity is the consequence of it, it cannot exist without it at all. If you are talking about EMP - it's just a bad analogue. After EMP only some equipment could be broken, not laws of nature. Bring new equipment at the point and it will work just fine.

But yes, there's no reason to equalize magic and fundamental, binding forces of nature in Golarion. If the lore allows the world exist but without magic - it can. It's just the fundamental force of imagination.


What would the 2 news tradition look like anyway?
Mind and Life would be something like Mesmerism, controlling the mind and life force of other, but can also heal and sooth the mind. The tradition would be call something like "Astral".

Matter and Spirit would be like Shifter, blending the spirit with the flesh and shaping the natural world by influencing it spirit. The tradition would be call something like "Umbra"


Errenor wrote:
Violant wrote:
It'd be a bit like how there's still electricity within an EMF, it just prevents you from using it in any meaningful way!

Ok, what 'EMF' are you talking about? If it's electromagnetic field, firstly, it's always here and everywhere and secondly - electricity is the consequence of it, it cannot exist without it at all. If you are talking about EMP - it's just a bad analogue. After EMP only some equipment could be broken, not laws of nature. Bring new equipment at the point and it will work just fine.

But yes, there's no reason to equalize magic and fundamental, binding forces of nature in Golarion. If the lore allows the world exist but without magic - it can. It's just the fundamental force of imagination.

Was half-asleep while I wrote that and my keyboard was dying. EMP was what I meant. Another analogue, probably a little better, would be atmospheric nuclear testing that inherently taints magic. Only things animated before, like the analogues of shipwrecks at the bottom of the ocean, would be able to continue magicking in the hollows.


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Nethys better than all the DnD magic gods confirmed. He gets also survive when they usually don't.

On a serious note, while Nethys didn't invent magic, I can see his hubris and death to cause magic in its current state to not function. Maybe another deity can take up that mantle in the future.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

I have questions and my preferred answers about magic.

What is magic?
please let there be no actual answer to this that is completely true (in setting unreliable narrator answers that only see a part of the elephant are great though). Its much better when its not completely and wholly explained - I'm looking at you midichlorians

Is what gods have different than mortal magic?
let it be something deeper more fundamental then the magic morals can tap into.

Is Nethys the god of the mortal spectrum of magic, magic on Golarion, magic absolutely everywhere, magic or the power of deities as well?
If he is the god of whatever powers all power hes not really a pantheon fitting deity because all other gods power would then rely on him and need him to function. that doesn't sound right to me

Liberty's Edge

Magic is, in the most general terms, something that alters reality in a way that is explicitly different than how it COULD be done via mechanical, chemical, or biological processes (if it indeed is possible to accomplish something similar/identical in those ways at all which is not always the case).

Liberty's Edge

There is IMO a difference between the magic used as a reason for things that do not follow our laws of physics (like dragons) and the power of magic that is used to cast spells.


Bluemagetim wrote:

Is Nethys the god of the mortal spectrum of magic, magic on Golarion, magic absolutely everywhere, magic or the power of deities as well?

If he is the god of whatever powers all power hes not really a pantheon fitting deity because all other gods power would then rely on him and need him to function. that doesn't sound right to me

Maybe he's just the Paul Atreides of magic. He didn't bring it about. He has no say in how it works. It exists independently of him and predates him. But at the same time..."He who can destroy a thing, controls a thing."


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Easl wrote:
Bluemagetim wrote:

Is Nethys the god of the mortal spectrum of magic, magic on Golarion, magic absolutely everywhere, magic or the power of deities as well?

If he is the god of whatever powers all power hes not really a pantheon fitting deity because all other gods power would then rely on him and need him to function. that doesn't sound right to me

Maybe he's just the Paul Atreides of magic. He didn't bring it about. He has no say in how it works. It exists independently of him and predates him. But at the same time..."He who can destroy a thing, controls a thing."

It does sound overmuch for any deity to be able to destroy the power of another uncontested in what is in essence a deities laboratory experiment.

i like that the narrator asks if this prophesy is even feasible.


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Bluemagetim wrote:

It does sound overmuch for any deity to be able to destroy the power of another uncontested in what is in essence a deities laboratory experiment.

i like that the narrator asks if this prophesy is even feasible.

I mean... I could totally imagine how a magic experiment of some deity might genocide the dwarves. Magic is what it is. If it is the fundamental nature of magic that "if X, then Y", and Nethys provides the X, then...?

Also, worth noting that he didn't destroy it. He just warped and shredded it a fair bit. Magic is still there. The other deities of magic still have something to be deities of. It's just messed up.

But yeah... pretty much all of the "prophecies" have made some pretty strong statements about the shape of the world ("Nethys can break magic while working on pet projects in his lab", "Killing Urgathoa will unleash undeath as an uncontrollable force", "Cayden Cailean drinks his divinity out of a hip flask") that don't necessarily look like they have any actual grounding in Golarion reality.

Side note: the fact that the local spell-checker doesn't recognize "Golarion" feels wrong to me.


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You don't have to be the inventor of the engine to blow it up when you try to modify one while it's running.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
keftiu wrote:
You don't have to be the inventor of the engine to blow it up when you try to modify one while it's running.

This is kind of what im trying to parse out.

Is it a single engine? is it many engines?
Are the engines of the gods fundamentally different from the ones mortals tap into.

So when Nethys breaks the engine what engine actually broke? who draws from it. are there others and so on.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Bluemagetim wrote:
keftiu wrote:
You don't have to be the inventor of the engine to blow it up when you try to modify one while it's running.

This is kind of what im trying to parse out.

Is it a single engine? is it many engines?
Are the engines of the gods fundamentally different from the ones mortals tap into.

So when Nethys breaks the engine what engine actually broke? who draws from it. are there others and so on.

Anyone who has an answer for you is trying to sell you their version of how magic works. After all, we already have Halcyon casting in PF2 which is a combination of arcane and primal magic.


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keftiu wrote:
You don't have to be the inventor of the engine to blow it up when you try to modify one while it's running.

So what I'm getting from this, is that if Nethys ever gets his hands on this and thinks "a) that's a good idea and b) I should take safety precautions first", the whole planet will look like Alkenstar for a bit while he's tinkering with things? Then he boots it back up, "sorry for any inconvenience, as compensation you get any restorative magic from my clerics for a 10% discount".

Liberty's Edge

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The Raven Black wrote:
Squiggit wrote:
The most interesting thing about this story for me is the acknowledgement from the narrator that parts of the story seem somewhat implausible... especially with the story seeming to go out of its way to call out a couple of gods and their followers as foolish and ineffectual, which is practically a running theme of these stories at this point.

New theory : these prophecies are actually written by someone with the power to see the possible futures that will follow the death of one of the Core20. And they are as disappointed as we are by the reactions of both deities and worshippers.

So they keep on flipping the pages until they find one deity whose death, while impactful, did not result in lost faith. And that is the canon version of the setting our PCs will be part of.

Which would fit nicely with the reassurance we got from the PFS team that PCs would not lose their abilities as a result of this divine death.

Building on this I tried to assess which deity would be most likely to fill the criteria among the remaining Core20.

The ones that sprung to my mind are Iomedae, Gorum, Irori and Torag.

I feel all the others would leave too big a hole in the setting.

Of those 4, Irori dying would be IMO the most likely to get his followers distraught.

Iomedae dying would have a heavy taste of déjà vu for her worshippers who follow her because Aroden died.

Torag could go and be both mourned and replaced by his whole family/pantheon and I feel his followers would bravely take it in stride. But I feel Sky King's Tomb gave Torag a bit of character development that would be a shame to waste.

So, with a heavy heart, I must conclude that the deity who dies will be Gorum. Even though he is definitely the one I find most inspiring in the Core 20.

It would fit well with Exemplars being Divine martials too.

Liberty's Edge

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"The Enlightened One passing would not be the tragedy one would suspect. All things live, all things die. The bigger danger would be if someone destroyed all of the knowledge that the faith has amassed. I have heard stories of other nations and worlds where they prohibit any dissemination of knowledge that is 'not the correct information'. That would be the ultimate disservice, a death of a million small cuts building up over time to lead to ignorance and forgetting everything."

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
The Raven Black wrote:
The Raven Black wrote:
Squiggit wrote:
The most interesting thing about this story for me is the acknowledgement from the narrator that parts of the story seem somewhat implausible... especially with the story seeming to go out of its way to call out a couple of gods and their followers as foolish and ineffectual, which is practically a running theme of these stories at this point.

New theory : these prophecies are actually written by someone with the power to see the possible futures that will follow the death of one of the Core20. And they are as disappointed as we are by the reactions of both deities and worshippers.

So they keep on flipping the pages until they find one deity whose death, while impactful, did not result in lost faith. And that is the canon version of the setting our PCs will be part of.

Which would fit nicely with the reassurance we got from the PFS team that PCs would not lose their abilities as a result of this divine death.

Building on this I tried to assess which deity would be most likely to fill the criteria among the remaining Core20.

The ones that sprung to my mind are Iomedae, Gorum, Irori and Torag.

I feel all the others would leave too big a hole in the setting.

Of those 4, Irori dying would be IMO the most likely to get his followers distraught.

Iomedae dying would have a heavy taste of déjà vu for her worshippers who follow her because Aroden died.

It would be a pretty heavy "The age of Man is coming to an end" type blow.


The narrator is a Nosoi, right?

As for Gorum, I saw a post going into more detail with a neat mini-fic, about how Gorum's role can be taken by someone who defeats them in combat. So, someone lays Gorum low, removes their helmet and sees an ordinary(?) person under there who smiles and vanishes, leaving the armor for the winner.


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--I just had a thought. What if the deity who dies, isn't KNOWN to be dead, by the wider populace? Like, there's basically an autoresponder set up that still grants cleric spells, so they wouldn't find out THAT way.
Three ways I can see that happen. The "neutral" path is that like, it's the deity's "echo" that's lingering, still granting stuff; it'll prolly fade with time. The "malevolent" path is that some evil entity did a kill-and-replace on the dead god. And then there's the "Weekend at Bernie's" path, where some other gods are like "we don't want to cause additional burdens in these troubled times" so they basically grant spells and pretend like that god is still around, at least until stuff has gotten more settled.

Now I remember there being a mention of a god torn in half, in the sky, but there's nothing an says an THAT is the one from the core 20. (And, depending on the precise wording, the torn-in-half god might not necessarily DIE from it.)

Also, if there's god-stuff falling about, people might not necessarily know it's FROM a recently-deceased deity.


Jan Caltrop wrote:

--I just had a thought. What if the deity who dies, isn't KNOWN to be dead, by the wider populace? Like, there's basically an autoresponder set up that still grants cleric spells, so they wouldn't find out THAT way.

Three ways I can see that happen. The "neutral" path is that like, it's the deity's "echo" that's lingering, still granting stuff; it'll prolly fade with time. The "malevolent" path is that some evil entity did a kill-and-replace on the dead god. And then there's the "Weekend at Bernie's" path, where some other gods are like "we don't want to cause additional burdens in these troubled times" so they basically grant spells and pretend like that god is still around, at least until stuff has gotten more settled.

Now I remember there being a mention of a god torn in half, in the sky, but there's nothing an says an THAT is the one from the core 20. (And, depending on the precise wording, the torn-in-half god might not necessarily DIE from it.)

Also, if there's god-stuff falling about, people might not necessarily know it's FROM a recently-deceased deity.

The 'Bernie' option sounds like what happened when Waukeen from The Forgotten Realms was trapped in the Abyss. An allied deity continued to grant spells to her worshipers in her place until Waukeen returned.

Liberty's Edge

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I am still hoping they go big and kill Gozreh which fits the environmental themes that have been rippling across the lines.

Going by Nethys possible death, if Gozreh goes who knows what chaos it would unleash across Goalrion.

Buuuuut ZK is likely the one who will die.

Liberty's Edge

Anorak wrote:

I am still hoping they go big and kill Gozreh which fits the environmental themes that have been rippling across the lines.

Going by Nethys possible death, if Gozreh goes who knows what chaos it would unleash across Goalrion.

Buuuuut ZK is likely the one who will die.

What I find most fascinating about ZK is that the really interesting things about him actually revolve around other beings (Shelyn, the Velstracs ...) or places (Nidal, the Shadow Plane ...).

Still, if he died, I feel we would have another round of deities / mortals disappoint. Which fits the Godsrain Prophecies, and thus, according to my newest theory, not the deity who will actually die in the canon setting.


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What we worry about if ZK dies is not "what will we do without Zon-Kuthon" it's "what is that Dark Tapestry thing that was incubating in the shell that was Zon-Kuthon going to do now that it has hatched?"


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Also if ZK dies could Shelyn remain unchanged by it? Would she still be able to hold her current portfolio depending on how ZK dies?


keftiu wrote:

By contrast, I actually quite liked how this echoed some obscure Spellplague lore - namely that only the first year of things was explosive, and that much of the chaos of the event came from a following decade of widespread dead magic zones. Spellcasters had to redevelop magical theory from the ground up once more, because the old ways no longer worked.

Fun prophecy!

Nethys' experiment caused a glitch in the Great Simulation, and now the cheat codes are all scrambled . . . .


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On consideration, Nethys dying and causing disruptions in magic was going to be a low probability event.

Not only was it "too similar to what another company did" (multiple times, TBH*), but it would also be too similar to the Drift Crisis in Starfinder.

*-

Spoiler:
Karsus was the first one, chronologically, IIRC


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As others have pointed out, many of these prophecies might be false.
I think one exercise might be to write your own, ala;
What would I wish for?

Me myself and I...
1. all of the lesser divinities are subsumed by the major deities and off world pantheons are removed-barred from Pathfinder. also, the latter bit is to avoid offending someone who might practice one of those faiths...
2. Tar baphon slays urgathoa and claims her mantle, and claims his nation GEB. No, this does not result in rando-apocalypse undeath plague (so trite!) Urgathoa's gluttony refers to necrophilia and cannibalism and her abhorrent pursuit of such. Various Texts do try to hide these truths, but if you read between the lines (media literacy much?) you will learn the horrid truth. these deceptions are intended to turn away the gullible, curious, and wicked who lack a cause to champion. (see what I did there?)
"Urgathoa's Glutony" proves that the goddess does not "withhold" from what she would want more of, another Eox, another world of the dead.
3. Arazni, Iomedae, Sarenrae, Pharasma... could all be merged into one goddess of fire, truth and justice.
4. Shelynn, (whom I love) is part of a dynamic dichotomy with her brother. they are exact reflections of each other: love and beauty as opposed to loss and ugliness. The eternal question, "is it better to have loved and lost, or never to have loved at all" when it comes to Shelynn and Zon Kuthon is much like how Greek deity myths offered explanations for observations about mortal lives and the world we all live in. Love, beauty not everyone finds these, and yet many will destroy themselves in the pursuit. true Beauty is hard work. Never forget that someone with "the right genes" can be very ugly inside and out. For this reason, I think the two divinities should be worshiped as "one" deity and not two (Despite being two very different divinities).
To borrow a bit from the end of the movie "Saturday Night Fever", I approximate; "There are many ways to kill yourself without actually trying to kill yourself". This is also a parable that the two divinities know well. I'd expand this deities' domains too. Shelynn would be the Sun in a blue sky (spring, Summer), while Zon Kuthon would be the darkness we hide in our hearts, but also the night (Fall, winter).
5. Calistra, is the goddess of melodramatic teen girls in high school. (High school is an outer plane found in the depths of the abyss) we do not need this monster and she is an evil monster; flighty, fickle, and twisted. Lacking logic, rationale and prone to absurd acting out. The Goddess summed up as the original "MEAN GIRLS" movie, needs to go away.
6. Desna, I'd just end her. why? her domains are disparate and not remotely related or a unified theme. You got dreams. you got travel. you got stars. you got luck. This is a soup bound for disaster, like an untrained idiot fighting with a star-knife (how lucky can you be to wield a weapon that will injure or kill you?) I further point to the cosmic caravan deception. "The Night and darkness are not places of evil." I find this so stupid. As stupid as, "Never sleep in the same place twice" it needs a spot of clarification that this goddess is loathe to share. Do you know what a follower of the CC is? after the mugging, a follower of Iomedae.
The module feast of Ravenmoor is further proof that Desna is Absentee at the best of times, and awakening Ghlaunder "accidentally". I'd tell Desna to "GET LOST".
7. The truth? very well, "Abadar" has always been the mask that "Asmodeus" wears. who better to represent the ultimate goals of greed and lust. Abadar is dead to me. Also, the prophecies of Kalistrade echo the tenets of Asmodeus, a chronicle of insane raving turn into contracts woven by Wizards of the shore- yet another name for Asmodeus, the deceiver. That's all I got for now.


oh yeah, Norgorber slays acechek and becomes a tripart deity...
thieving,
poisoning,
assassination.

the mantis armor and saw tooth sabers are the sacred symbols worn by Norgorber's elite. his chosen.

The phrase, epithet really, "NORGORBER'S NUTS!"
might actually imply a connection to insanity and chaos.
More domains for old black fingers...


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Fussings wrote:

As others have pointed out, many of these prophecies might be false.

I think one exercise might be to write your own, ala;
What would I wish for?

Me myself and I...
1. all of the lesser divinities are subsumed by the major deities and off world pantheons are removed-barred from Pathfinder. also, the latter bit is to avoid offending someone who might practice one of those faiths...

I'm curious on how comprehensive this change is, when you say "lesser divinities", who exactly do you mean? Demigods/quasi-deities? Gods which just happened to not "feel" that powerful (and in which case does this include and core deities)? All non-core (including incredibly powerful ones)?


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Oh! And also, will any new deities be added to the core pantheon? Particularly given that looking at it, ignoring any potential deities who may be removed by the "lesser divinities" label as I can't say which would go away from that and counting Zon-Kuthon & Shelyn as one (seeing they'd be worshipped together), we're down to only 14 members (and notably by the nature of the specific merges & kills only four being female - and that's including both the Zon-Kuthon/Shelyn combo + Gozreh towards that count, which arguably they should only count as .5 each lol).

I really am curious on what this pantheon is looking like.


Eldritch Yodel wrote:
Fussings wrote:
1. all of the lesser divinities are subsumed by the major deities and off world pantheons are removed-barred from Pathfinder.
I'm curious on how comprehensive this change is, when you say "lesser divinities", who exactly do you mean? Demigods/quasi-deities? Gods which just happened to not "feel" that powerful (and in which case does this include and core deities)? All non-core (including incredibly powerful ones)?

why bow before a servant when the king is right there?

if two speak with one voice, how else can they be but one whole?
reply point 1. I point towards "Proxies" that have their own following.
it is fine to have heralds and agents. Yet, it is not proper to claim powers and followers when you take them away from your divine patron.


Eldritch Yodel wrote:
I really am curious on what this pantheon is looking like.

My pathfinder pretend pantheon? would be a lot smaller.

Primarily, pitting a singular god of good, truth, and justice against a singular evil of lies, conspiracy, and corruption.


Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber
Fussings wrote:
Eldritch Yodel wrote:
Fussings wrote:
1. all of the lesser divinities are subsumed by the major deities and off world pantheons are removed-barred from Pathfinder.
I'm curious on how comprehensive this change is, when you say "lesser divinities", who exactly do you mean? Demigods/quasi-deities? Gods which just happened to not "feel" that powerful (and in which case does this include and core deities)? All non-core (including incredibly powerful ones)?

why bow before a servant when the king is right there?

if two speak with one voice, how else can they be but one whole?
reply point 1. I point towards "Proxies" that have their own following.
it is fine to have heralds and agents. Yet, it is not proper to claim powers and followers when you take them away from your divine patron.

That doesn't answer the question on what deities are being considered "Lesser Divinities". For example, Tsukiyo is incredibly incredibly popular in Tian-Xia (being one of the core pantheon there) + presumably similar in power to various Inner Sea core deities, The Bound Prince is one of the oldest beings in the whole multiverse, created the daemons, and is almost one with Abaddon itself (the eclipse over the plane being their eye), Groetus' power is unknown, but is supposed to be the one to clean up the universe when it's destroyed, Yog-Sothoth predates the universe and is possibly the dimension of time itself, and The Monad possibly is the universe itself, yet none of these are core deities. Which if any are listed as "lesser" deities in this and thus removed? Inversely, do deities like Caydan, Lamashtu, Irori, Nethys, ect. in the core pantheon count as lesser deities? Honestly, power wise for example Norgorber is pretty low down there, just being your average ascended mortal.


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Honestly the whole concept of "simplify the pantheon!" kind of annoys me; this isn't from people in the thread, it goes back to the start of D&D 4E. Like "oh this isn't relevant to the average adventurer" yeah and neither is the upper level of royal politics in the capital city, but I don't hear anyone calling to abolish fantasy monarchy simply because characters aren't born of noble blood. (I've heard people call to abolish fantasy monarchy for OTHER reasons, but not that one.) Plus, the more you've looked into real-world polytheism, the more you've discovered so much COOL stuff, which gets rejected or overlooked with the "standard" model.

My ideal would be, there are drillions of deities, most of them local, or very specific; the widely-known ones are those tied to a specific entity with political power. (By "entity" I mean like, army or state or organization.) So write-ups of deities would be like write-ups of political groups, or major cities; in that those are things which people know about, but it's absolutely not expected that your character necessarily has a connection to it, and it IS expected that the one most relevant to your character, is prolly someone that was come up with for your game specifically.

Or another interesting way of doing things, is having a small number of "separate" deities, but SO MANY DIFFERENT WAYS of interpreting and worshipping them. So there's "XYZ as healer" who's different from "XYZ as warrior" who's different from "XYZ as the protector of this particular city" who's different from "XYZ as artist" who's different from "ABC as artist". And people who worship "XYZ as artist" and "XYZ as warrior" think about the other group as "well yeah XYZ is both, but THOSE guys are getting it all wrong, THIS aspect is the most important". And sometimes interpretations of a given deity are mutually exclusive with each other; but that's how it's happened, and that's part of the fun.
If I was going to be doing this, in a fantasy setting where deities provably a) exist b) care about the mortal world c) can interact with it, then this is how I'd have it be, "behind the curtain". "XYZ" isn't necessarily a singular person. It's more of a coalition, bound by a singular aesthetic and name; yet sometimes it IS the same person. Multiple different entities can fill the roll of "XYZ as healer", and some of them also fill the roll of "XYZ as warrior". This would also explain any contradictions, without having to resort to "the divine are just like that", in the same way that it's not a contradiction if I say "my friend from the UK is a cis dude" and "my friend from the UK is a cis lady" (there's two separate friends).
The benefit of this type of thing is that there's only a few names and overall aesthetics for each deity that need to be listed, but infinite possible "versions" that could be worshipped, as needed for any character or setting or villain. Plus, all the petty internal drama you could ever want.

...I think I got pretty far off topic here, sorry about that.

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