Core Rulebook 2nd Printing Errata

First, thanks for the update!

On healer's tools:
With the simplification of how you carry items and the ability for everyone to wear 2 bulk of tools I have to wonder why it wouldn't have been easier in every way to just change tools to 1 hand needed as the times someone would go out of their way to not wear the tools seems like it'd be small enough to not warrant the effort to make the distinction.

Everyone, thank you for your patience. The great way you all responded here, offering that patience again despite how long you've had to wait, was helpful to me in expediting some of the talks I needed to have with various people. Here's what we've got:

1) We want one-handed weapon characters who keep a free hand to be able to use their worn tools, and that includes Battle Medicine. Last night, Jared Thaler cleverly noticed the same thing that the design team had noticed just a bit earlier ourselves that this applies to more than just healer's tools so was a bit bigger than it seemed.

The end result was adding an update on the errata for Battle Medicine and for worn tools. Basically if you're wearing a set of tools, you don't need one hand to hold the kit and the other hand to hold the specific thing you're using (bandage, lockpick, or what have you), you just need one hand to draw the items you need, and the kit as a whole stays worn.

2) In the errata entry for attacks, added a breakdown explanation of attack rolls, the attack trait, and multiple attack penalty.

3) Much more minor, but to clarify the math of Cloud Jump, added an example of a character with 40 foot Speed who rolled a 25 and has Cloud Jump.

4) A few of the errata moved to the "Part 2" section because of the expansion of the "Part 1" errata made "Part 1" run out of space again.

These should all be live right now, thanks to Andrew White again for pushing the update.

THANK YOU

especially for the Battle Medicine clarification.

THANK YOU
THANK YOU
THANK YOU

I wonder how many posts were dealing with this topic now finally laid to rest.

Thank you again.

I already started sharing the happy news ^_^

Thank you to everyone involved.

2020 didn't end up being all bad after all.

1) We want one-handed weapon characters who keep a free hand to be able to use their worn tools, and that includes Battle Medicine. Last night, Jared Thaler cleverly noticed the same thing that the design team had noticed just a bit earlier ourselves that this applies to more than just healer's tools so was a bit bigger than it seemed.

The end result was adding an update on the errata for Battle Medicine and for worn tools. Basically if you're wearing a set of tools, you don't need one hand to hold the kit and the other hand to hold the specific thing you're using (bandage, lockpick, or what have you), you just need one hand to draw the items you need, and the kit as a whole stays worn.

Battle Medicine has the Manipulate trait, it's not Interact (which explicitly states the use of an open hand.)

Manipulate however...

"Manipulate: You must physically manipulate an item or make gestures to use an action with this trait."

It can be easily argued that you could manipulate a lever or poke a button with a glaive in two hands, or make gestures with it (enraged Star Wars sandpeople, for example). I wish this was clearer. Is the intention that the Manipulate trait must be performed with an open hand?

If so, let's clarify it once and for all.

Interact is not a trait. It is the name of an action, which has the manipulate trait.

Everyone, thank you for your patience. The great way you all responded here, offering that patience again despite how long you've had to wait, was helpful to me in expediting some of the talks I needed to have with various people. Here's what we've got:

1) We want one-handed weapon characters who keep a free hand to be able to use their worn tools, and that includes Battle Medicine. Last night, Jared Thaler cleverly noticed the same thing that the design team had noticed just a bit earlier ourselves that this applies to more than just healer's tools so was a bit bigger than it seemed.

The end result was adding an update on the errata for Battle Medicine and for worn tools. Basically if you're wearing a set of tools, you don't need one hand to hold the kit and the other hand to hold the specific thing you're using (bandage, lockpick, or what have you), you just need one hand to draw the items you need, and the kit as a whole stays worn.

2) In the errata entry for attacks, added a breakdown explanation of attack rolls, the attack trait, and multiple attack penalty.

3) Much more minor, but to clarify the math of Cloud Jump, added an example of a character with 40 foot Speed who rolled a 25 and has Cloud Jump.

4) A few of the errata moved to the "Part 2" section because of the expansion of the "Part 1" errata made "Part 1" run out of space again.

These should all be live right now, thanks to Andrew White again for pushing the update.

Thank you so much for an answer on Battle Medicine, Mark, and for all your work here! This puts a lot of fretting in our corner of the community to rest.

Yay! Looks like my guess on the how the new worn tools works was right, one hand to use worn tools to do the action gives a LOT of flexibility to one-handed weapon wielders.

I love the mechanics of the worn tools! That's another layer of character customization that's going to bring a lot of flavor to the table. Thieves Tools being accessible as an item as well is really cool.

First, thanks for the update!

On healer's tools:
With the simplification of how you carry items and the ability for everyone to wear 2 bulk of tools I have to wonder why it wouldn't have been easier in every way to just change tools to 1 hand needed as the times someone would go out of their way to not wear the tools seems like it'd be small enough to not warrant the effort to make the distinction.

Because you have that advantage with only 2 bulk of tools, so about two toolsets. So if a character wants to have healing tools, repair tools, and alchemist tools, one of those would not get the one-hand, free to draw advantage, and they need to draw/stow it to use it. So it promotes spreading tool usage across the party.

graystone wrote:

First, thanks for the update!

On healer's tools:
With the simplification of how you carry items and the ability for everyone to wear 2 bulk of tools I have to wonder why it wouldn't have been easier in every way to just change tools to 1 hand needed as the times someone would go out of their way to not wear the tools seems like it'd be small enough to not warrant the effort to make the distinction.

Because you have that advantage with only 2 bulk of tools, so about two toolsets. So if a character wants to have healing tools, repair tools, and alchemist tools, one of those would not get the one-hand, free to draw advantage, and they need to draw/stow it to use it.

LOL I understand it's technically possible to have more tools than bulk allowance, the chances you're want/need to have all worn are slim at best. You'd need to be someone with Quick Alchemy [or equivalent], battle medicine and quick repair all on the same character for that to be an issue. Is that common enough that it's an issue?

So it promotes spreading tool usage across the party.

I don't get this comment at all. Unless you're taking the specific feats or class abilities where the tools are used in activities counted in actions, there isn't a need for wearing the tools: being 1 or 2 hands doesn't impact a Treat Wounds check for instance so where is that incentive? Same with anyone with the repair kit and no quick repair? 1 or 2 hands doesn't impact a 10 minute activity.

We will see more tools in the future and skill feats that interacts with tools, so with time I can see competition for worn tools.

We will see more tools in the future and skill feats that interacts with tools, so with time I can see competition for worn tools.

Will we? What skill feats using tools, and counted in actions, are we missing and if we do wouldn't someone with current feats that use those tools be the people that would pick up those? [IE if you have another quick medicine feat, wouldn't the battle medicine guy be the one picking it up?] Or tools? Wouldn't that require new skills to have new tools as new tools for old skills is a side-grade not an increase?

What skill feats using tools, and counted in actions, are we missing

Perhaps new skill feats will be created, and staff won't have to rely solely on what was produced for PF1.

graystone wrote:

What skill feats using tools, and counted in actions, are we missing

Perhaps new skill feats will be created, and staff won't have to rely solely on what was produced for PF1.

Sure it's possible, but a new tool-based skill seems less likely than needing more than 2 bulk of tools on hand to avoid the action to draw them.

*shrug* I was just curious why all the hoops when just changing hands needed seems so much easier in every way. IMO, it just seems you're unlikely to run into the limit for the current tool wear so it seemed like extra effort for no gain.

I appreciate the update, Mark!

Well, a snare ranger can't have healer's tools for battle medicine and quick snare, for example.
And *I'll be honest, I've got a character that has more tools that they can wear.

Whoo! You had me going for a second there, Mark. But thanks for the quick update nonetheless!

Well, a snare ranger can't have healer's tools for battle medicine and quick snare, for example.

And *I'll be honest, I've got a character that has more tools that they can wear.

Yeah, the 2 Bulk limit is super rough when so many tool kits weigh that much. And there's no options to increase that limit.

I'm concerned about the finesse not working with traits like trip and disarm.

Could we please get a version of the Errata organized by date? It would be really helpful if we could easily tell which changes are actually 'new'.

Thank you.

Everyone, thank you for your patience. The great way you all responded here, offering that patience again despite how long you've had to wait, was helpful to me in expediting some of the talks I needed to have with various people. Here's what we've got:

1) We want one-handed weapon characters who keep a free hand to be able to use their worn tools, and that includes Battle Medicine. Last night, Jared Thaler cleverly noticed the same thing that the design team had noticed just a bit earlier ourselves that this applies to more than just healer's tools so was a bit bigger than it seemed.

The end result was adding an update on the errata for Battle Medicine and for worn tools. Basically if you're wearing a set of tools, you don't need one hand to hold the kit and the other hand to hold the specific thing you're using (bandage, lockpick, or what have you), you just need one hand to draw the items you need, and the kit as a whole stays worn.

2) In the errata entry for attacks, added a breakdown explanation of attack rolls, the attack trait, and multiple attack penalty.

3) Much more minor, but to clarify the math of Cloud Jump, added an example of a character with 40 foot Speed who rolled a 25 and has Cloud Jump.

4) A few of the errata moved to the "Part 2" section because of the expansion of the "Part 1" errata made "Part 1" run out of space again.

These should all be live right now, thanks to Andrew White again for pushing the update.

First, let me give thanks for the Battle Medicine and Healer's Tools (and tools in general!) clarification for hand requirements and what they entail. It's helpful to finally know the real answer to this, which is one hand if worn, two hands if not.

Second, I also appreciate the subtle but significant buff of letting players draw and stow tools for free, both when starting and when completing the activities, respectively. This is a big buff that makes using these items not so problematic in the grand scheme of things, one that I'll make sure both tables I play at are aware of.

That being said, I am a bit confused on how "worn tools" would work. Does this require you to have an actual container for them? Do Bandoliers and Hip Pouches and other similar containers serve as receptacles for tools to be worn in? I know there were rules for Bandoliers to be occupied entirely by a set of tools, are they required for treating tools as worn for the purposes of utilizing the tools for activities? It would seem to be how I would rule them to function, but an interpretation might lead some to believe that they can just be "designated" as worn (with no "container" to indicate what they're in or where they're located), and still follow the arbitrary 2 bulk limit.

First, thanks for the update!

On healer's tools:
With the simplification of how you carry items and the ability for everyone to wear 2 bulk of tools I have to wonder why it wouldn't have been easier in every way to just change tools to 1 hand needed as the times someone would go out of their way to not wear the tools seems like it'd be small enough to not warrant the effort to make the distinction.

A tool kit being a container full of objects, so you have to hold it in the one hand while your other hand takes the tools out and puts them back in during use and thus a tool kit taking 2 hands to use remains consistent with the way the other containers in the game work.

That they have a special trait to, as an example, take all the bits and bobs out of your doctor bag and stuff them in your pockets and strap them to your chest for easy access doesn't necessitate making them a one-handed item like some kind of all-purpose medical spray - and if they were one-handed despite their description of being stuff in a container, would likely cause someone to say "then why do I need 2 hands to move items in or out of a backpack?"

That being said, I am a bit confused on how "worn tools" would work. Does this require you to have an actual container for them? Do Bandoliers and Hip Pouches and other similar containers serve as receptacles for tools to be worn in?

According to the errata, bandoliers, hip pouches, etc... don't exist anymore. You don't mechanically need to call out HOW you're wearing the tools. You just get to wear up to 2 bulk of tools.

I am a bit confused on how "worn tools" would work. Does this require you to have an actual container for them? Do Bandoliers and Hip Pouches and other similar containers serve as receptacles for tools to be worn in? I know there were rules for Bandoliers to be occupied entirely by a set of tools, are they required for treating tools as worn for the purposes of utilizing the tools for activities? It would seem to be how I would rule them to function, but an interpretation might lead some to believe that they can just be "designated" as worn (with no "container" to indicate what they're in or where they're located), and still follow the arbitrary 2 bulk limit.

All of the "containers" were removed in the Errata. You can get refunded for them if you play Society.

Now you just designate what is Carried, Worn and Stowed. Of those, you can "wear" up to 2 Bulk of Tools (or L Bulk if wearing Fine Clothing).

Wow! Ninja'd by 3 seconds! Good job ^_^

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

I am a bit confused on how "worn tools" would work. Does this require you to have an actual container for them? Do Bandoliers and Hip Pouches and other similar containers serve as receptacles for tools to be worn in? I know there were rules for Bandoliers to be occupied entirely by a set of tools, are they required for treating tools as worn for the purposes of utilizing the tools for activities? It would seem to be how I would rule them to function, but an interpretation might lead some to believe that they can just be "designated" as worn (with no "container" to indicate what they're in or where they're located), and still follow the arbitrary 2 bulk limit.

All of the "containers" were removed in the Errata. You can get refunded for them if you play Society.

Now you just designate what is Carried, Worn and Stowed. Of those, you can "wear" up to 2 Bulk of Tools (or L Bulk if wearing Fine Clothing).

Interesting. While there is a limit on tools, what about other items, like consumables and weapons? Do they have limits too, or are the only limits going to be your actual bulk capacity?

All of the "containers" were removed in the Errata.

Not all. As far as I know, we still get backpacks for our 2 bulk refund. And saddlebags.

Interesting. While there is a limit on tools, what about other items, like consumables and weapons? Do they have limits too, or are the only limits going to be your actual bulk capacity?

Everything up to your bulk limit fits in your pockets. Only tools has a different limit.

Just your Bulk capacity ^_^

From the new Errata: "Worn items are tucked into pockets, belt pouches, bandoliers, weapon sheaths, and so forth, and they can be retrieved and returned relatively quickly"

Dang ninjas are everywhere =D

Dang ninjas are everywhere =D

Sounds like a book for a Ninja Archetype class is coming up soon...

Yay! Looks like my guess on the how the new worn tools works was right, one hand to use worn tools to do the action gives a LOT of flexibility to one-handed weapon wielders.

I love the mechanics of the worn tools! That's another layer of character customization that's going to bring a lot of flavor to the table. Thieves Tools being accessible as an item as well is really cool.

Now we just need a martial prof weapon with the free hand trait and we'll really be cooking with gas. Time for the return of the cestus?

Is there anything in "Part 1" to indicate what the new errata is? If not, can something be added? It would greatly help with finding new errata.

4) A few of the errata moved to the "Part 2" section because of the expansion of the "Part 1" errata made "Part 1" run out of space again.

Dang I'm really sorry to hear about Liz. Compounded with the recent forum behavior I hope you guys at paizo are in a good place. Love you guys.

Midnightoker wrote:

Yay! Looks like my guess on the how the new worn tools works was right, one hand to use worn tools to do the action gives a LOT of flexibility to one-handed weapon wielders.

I love the mechanics of the worn tools! That's another layer of character customization that's going to bring a lot of flavor to the table. Thieves Tools being accessible as an item as well is really cool.

Now we just need a martial prof weapon with the free hand trait and we'll really be cooking with gas. Time for the return of the cestus?

Interesting observation.

Even a two handed weapon with the free-hand trait would be quite powerful considering tools, or even something that gives a weapon the free-hand trait.

Even a master/legendary skill feat that allows using tools while hands are occupied would be super cool.

Hey, here's something the designers may want to nip-in-the-bud (or confirm it works this way).

I call it Finesse Weapons Doing Maneuvers 2.0 - Agile Weapons Doing Maneuvers.

The multiple attack penalty you take with this weapon on the second attack on your turn is –4 instead of –5, and –8 instead of –10 on the third and subsequent attacks in the turn.

Currently the Agile Trait works with all attacks and not just attack rolls. It's possible this is intentional, but by RAW, Agile weapons still work with weapon traits that perform maneuvers.

Obviously this is less build-defining than Finesse, but it seems noticably inconsistent to me so I figured it must be something that was missed on this pass.

Hey, here's something the designers may want to nip-in-the-bud (or confirm it works this way).

I call it Finesse Weapons Doing Maneuvers 2.0 - Agile Weapons Doing Maneuvers.

Agile Trait wrote:

The multiple attack penalty you take with this weapon on the second attack on your turn is –4 instead of –5, and –8 instead of –10 on the third and subsequent attacks in the turn.

Currently the Agile Trait works with all attacks and not just attack rolls. It's possible this is intentional, but by RAW, Agile weapons still work with weapon traits that perform maneuvers.

Obviously this is less build-defining than Finesse, but it seems noticably inconsistent to me so I figured it must be something that was missed on this pass.

Are there even any agile weapons that also have the finesse trait and a maneuver trait?

Edit: sickle does soooooo fingers crossed it gets missed in the crossfire ;)

Are there even any agile weapons that also have the finesse trait and a maneuver trait?

Edit: sickle does soooooo fingers crossed it gets missed in the crossfire ;)

I mean, finesse is an absolute non-starter since it only works on attack rolls not attacks.

But yes plenty of weapons have the Agile trait and a maneuver trait.

Midnightoker wrote:

Are there even any agile weapons that also have the finesse trait and a maneuver trait?

Edit: sickle does soooooo fingers crossed it gets missed in the crossfire ;)

I mean, finesse is an absolute non-starter since it only works on attack rolls not attacks.

But yes plenty of weapons have the Agile trait and a maneuver trait.

Ah my brain isn’t working right this late, I see!

Midnightoker wrote:

Yay! Looks like my guess on the how the new worn tools works was right, one hand to use worn tools to do the action gives a LOT of flexibility to one-handed weapon wielders.

I love the mechanics of the worn tools! That's another layer of character customization that's going to bring a lot of flavor to the table. Thieves Tools being accessible as an item as well is really cool.

Now we just need a martial prof weapon with the free hand trait and we'll really be cooking with gas. Time for the return of the cestus?

There is an advanced weapon that can have the free hand trait when used one handed: Bladed Hoop. Shield Boss/Shield Spikes are martial and would allow for a free hand. There is also Nimble Shield Hand so you can hand a weapon + shield and still have a free hand.

Mark Seifter wrote:

1) We want one-handed weapon characters who keep a free hand to be able to use their worn tools, and that includes Battle Medicine. Last night, Jared Thaler cleverly noticed the same thing that the design team had noticed just a bit earlier ourselves that this applies to more than just healer's tools so was a bit bigger than it seemed.

Credit should go to GM The Gnome for bringing it to my attention.

A cave gnome pops its head out of his cave and looks around... oh no attention ...

Dexterous Maneuvers

expert in athletics
_________
You can make Trip and Disarms using your Dexterity modifier for Athletics instead of your Strength modifier."

Honestly? Even if the current errata stays, I'd LOVE this as an option for those who want to take it in a future splatbook. It'd be very useful for Rogues and non-Gymnast Swashbucklers.

Interesting. While there is a limit on tools, what about other items, like consumables and weapons? Do they have limits too, or are the only limits going to be your actual bulk capacity?

Bulk capacity and GM fiat + common sense. I mean, some weapons are basically un-sheathable — either you're holding them in your hand, or it is not on your person. Polearms, for example, would fall into this category. And you probably shouldn't be carrying more than two weapons that aren't Light either. A sword and a hammer, sure, but adding an axe to that is pushing it.

Thank you very much for those clarifications/updates, it really helps more than one would think.

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

Interesting. While there is a limit on tools, what about other items, like consumables and weapons? Do they have limits too, or are the only limits going to be your actual bulk capacity?

Bulk capacity and GM fiat + common sense. I mean, some weapons are basically un-sheathable — either you're holding them in your hand, or it is not on your person. Polearms, for example, would fall into this category. And you probably shouldn't be carrying more than two weapons that aren't Light either. A sword and a hammer, sure, but adding an axe to that is pushing it.

Next you're going to tell me a halfling doesn't fit in my pockets either...

When the answer to the riddle "What have I got in my pocket?" is "ME!"

Did bandoleers ever really work to make potions or scrolls "worn"? It seems like they specified tools as something that could be drawn as a part of the action of using them but never consumables.

Did bandoleers ever really work to make potions or scrolls "worn"?

There was debate. Debate which is now moot.

By removing the paladin cause prerequisite, the Champion's Blade of Justice feat (pg 113) can now be taken by any champion including those that follow the tenets of evil. Seems unintentional given that all of the damage can be converted to good damage.

Shouldn't tenets of good become a prerequisite now?

By removing the paladin cause prerequisite, the Champion's Blade of Justice feat (pg 113) can now be taken by any champion including those that follow the tenets of evil. Seems unintentional given that all of the damage can be converted to good damage.

Shouldn't tenets of good become a prerequisite now?

Agreed with this. I think it's a little funny for Evil-aligned Champions to now have a Good-aligned counter to enemies. But this ability was written before Evil-aligned Champions were a thing, hence why the requirement wasn't really listed, as at the time, all Champions were with Tenets of Good. (Most still are anyway, since Evil options are always Uncommon now.)