How to update PFS characters to Year 2 format

Wei Ji the Learner wrote:

I thought the 'drawback' to Druids and Clerics was having Anathema, not paying retail for training in new spells from a new sourcebook?

I mean, that's what my general take on this was?

Or is this the counter-balance to watering down Anathema for Organized Play purposes?

This has nothing to do with Org Play. This is a direct explanation from the design team that this is how it was supposed to work. Druids and clerics get to choose from to a much wider pool of spells each day for free. But they don't get to chose from *all* the spells for free.

Where is this “direct explanation from the design team”? Are you just referring to the wording in the Core?

Where is this “direct explanation from the design team”? Are you just referring to the wording in the Core?

If it's based on the wording of the Core, then access to Common spells is generally assumed, and access is what Clerics and Druids need.

Steven Schopmeyer wrote:

FireclawDrake wrote:

Steven Schopmeyer wrote:

That would eliminate a whole tier of access for all non-Core books. GMs would not be able to say 'all common spells are allowed from these books'.

Or they could, but it would not add any more content to what they allow.

The Society equivalent to this is the Character Options blog? GMs already have this ability, as does the OP team. Unless everyone else other than Clerics and Druids have Standard access rules to APG spells, but Clerics and Druids have Limited access to APG spells?

This still doesn't make it sensible to remove Common spells from all other books besides Core.

Limiting them doesn’t make it sensible to have Common spells that require extra effort to access, either. Effectively the designers have removed their ability to publish new spells that are available to everyone, without adding a clarifier like “All Clerics and Druids have access to prepare this spell.” FireclawDrake doesn’t seem to be saying that all of those spells should be Uncommon, but rather that making spells Uncommon is the tool that the game provides, and that makes much more sense in-world than what book the option appears in out of game.

That tool isn't useful to the designer. It is up to the individual GM to say 'all these spells are available'. And our GM has said 'no, these spells are not available with out Learn a Spell'.

That tool isn't useful to the designer. It is up to the individual GM to say 'all these spells are available'. And our GM has said 'no, these spells are not available with out Learn a Spell'.

They have also said that they are available without needing to Learn a Spell, since they are Common spells of Standard availability, which means people have access, which is the requirement to prepare them.

With the new rule, APG spells need to be marked at Limited availability for Clerics and Druids on the Character Options blog, with a note they can gain access by using Learn a Spell with the tutors.

Agreed. The announcement of this decision was flawed.

Agreed. The announcement of this decision was flawed.

I guess Org Play Leadership assumed everyone was already playing by these rules, and that they didn't think this was an "announcement" at all?

It could very well be a case of 'hey, some people asked and if anyone else was wondering...' kind of clarification, where the rest of the community looks up from their game with a 'you said WHAT?' reaction.

Jared Thaler wrote:

Wei Ji the Learner wrote:

I thought the 'drawback' to Druids and Clerics was having Anathema, not paying retail for training in new spells from a new sourcebook?

I mean, that's what my general take on this was?

Or is this the counter-balance to watering down Anathema for Organized Play purposes?

This has nothing to do with Org Play. This is a direct explanation from the design team that this is how it was supposed to work. Druids and clerics get to choose from to a much wider pool of spells each day for free. But they don't get to chose from *all* the spells for free.

Where is this “direct explanation from the design team”? Are you just referring to the wording in the Core?

Tonya mentioned it earlier. That the design team explicitly said "this is how it is supposed to work." And that adding those spells via the learn a spell activity was introduced for PFS to allow clerics and druids to add those spells to their spell list.

That doesn't sound like a very productive way to promote new material to me?

But maybe it's the lack of coffee and dread of having to go be essential yet again making me unable to keep up with all the reinventions of the wheel talking...

I think it is a mistake to view everything PFS does solely through the lens of "how to best sell more books."

There are multiple competing interests, among the a desire for a fair and balanced campaign (we don't want this to become Magic where if you haven't spent $400+ dollars on ty he latest product, there is no point even playing) and a desire to portray the rules accurately in order to teach people the game system. To mention just two.

I think this is one of those areas where the design team is operating under the assumption that a particular rule is a useful tool for GMs and players... most of which are likely not aware that the rule exists.

Richard Lowe wrote:

I don't have any issue with this rule at all personally, it makes perfect sense to me that some prayers are not as well known and require extra study to learn them.

Shouldn't those prayers be Uncommon then? Wasn't that the whole purpose of the rarity system to begin with?

No, that's an entirely different thing.

Uncommon means you need express means to access and find them before you can even attempt to learn them, this simply means that you need to spend a little time and gold on incense, prayer scrolls, whatever and then you know them. So, very different as you can see.

Tonya mentioned it earlier. That the design team explicitly said "this is how it is supposed to work." And that adding those spells via the learn a spell activity was introduced for PFS to allow clerics and druids to add those spells to their spell list.

I think the biggest shock is how poorly I apparently have understood access rules. You don't have access to Common things by default.

You do have Access. You just don't get them for free.

You do have Access. You just don't get them for free.

If you have access, you can prepare and cast them.

or from other divine spells to which you gain access.

All the Learn a Spell activity does is give you access.

No other caster has to do anything extra to get those spells, either, they can just pick them up on level up.

access (little a), poor choice of words there, but otherwise it's pretty clear. You use it to learn the spell.

Why else would Nature and Religion be listed for the required learning skills?

For Uncommon or rarer spells, or for casters that use those lists but prepare from a smaller source. Witches, for example. Oracles and Sorcerers with divine bloodlines would also use it to alter their spell repertoire.

No other caster has to do anything extra to get those spells, either, they can just pick them up on level up.

So we assume that any other option that grants a spell from Divine or Primal spell list--other than being a cleric or druid--can select from the full list of all products?

No other caster has to do anything extra to get those spells, either, they can just pick them up on level up.

Curious, where does it say casters get their spells for free on level up?

Losonti wrote:

No other caster has to do anything extra to get those spells, either, they can just pick them up on level up.

Curious, where does it say casters get their spells for free on level up?

Wizard: Each time you gain a level, you add two more arcane spells to your spellbook, of any level of spell you can cast. You can also use the Arcana skill to add other spells that you find in your adventures, as described on page 241.

Witch: Each time you gain a level, your patron teaches your familiar two new spells of any level you can cast, chosen from common spells of your tradition or others you gain access to.

Rysky wrote:

Losonti wrote:

No other caster has to do anything extra to get those spells, either, they can just pick them up on level up.

Curious, where does it say casters get their spells for free on level up?

Wizard: Each time you gain a level, you add two more arcane spells to your spellbook, of any level of spell you can cast. You can also use the Arcana skill to add other spells that you find in your adventures, as described on page 241.

Witch: Each time you gain a level, your patron teaches your familiar two new spells of any level you can cast, chosen from common spells of your tradition or others you gain access to.

So those two classes get some free spells on level up, what about the others?

They're the only other prepared casters, but sure.

Bard: You add to this spell repertoire as you increase in level. Each time you get a spell slot (see Table 3–6), you add a spell to your spell repertoire of the same level. At 2nd level, you select another 1st-level spell; at 3rd level, you select two 2nd-level spells, and so on.

Oracle: You add to this spell repertoire as you increase in level. Each time you get a spell slot (see Table 2–3), you add a spell of the same level to your spell repertoire. At 2nd level, you select another 1st-level spell; at 3rd level, you select two 2nd-level spells, and so on.

Sorcerer: You add to this spell repertoire as you increase in level. Each time you get a spell slot (see Table 3–17), you add a spell of the same level to your spell repertoire. When you gain access to a new level of spells, your first new spell is always your bloodline spell, but you can choose the other spells you gain. At 2nd level, you select another 1st-level spell; at 3rd level, you gain a new bloodline spell and two other 2nd-level spells, and so on.

access (little a), poor choice of words there, but otherwise it's pretty clear. You use it to learn the spell.

Nowhere in the cleric or druid descriptions does it say they have to learn a spell to be able to prepare it, merely that they need to have access. (Access is granted by the Learn a Spell activity, but can also come about in other ways).

Losonti wrote:

No other caster has to do anything extra to get those spells, either, they can just pick them up on level up.

So we assume that any other option that grants a spell from Divine or Primal spell list--other than being a cleric or druid--can select from the full list of all products?

I apologize, but I don't quite understand what you're asking here.

They're the only other prepared casters, but sure.

Bard: You add to this spell repertoire as you increase in level. Each time you get a spell slot (see Table 3–6), you add a spell to your spell repertoire of the same level. At 2nd level, you select another 1st-level spell; at 3rd level, you select two 2nd-level spells, and so on.

Oracle: You add to this spell repertoire as you increase in level. Each time you get a spell slot (see Table 2–3), you add a spell of the same level to your spell repertoire. At 2nd level, you select another 1st-level spell; at 3rd level, you select two 2nd-level spells, and so on.

Sorcerer: You add to this spell repertoire as you increase in level. Each time you get a spell slot (see Table 3–17), you add a spell of the same level to your spell repertoire. When you gain access to a new level of spells, your first new spell is always your bloodline spell, but you can choose the other spells you gain. At 2nd level, you select another 1st-level spell; at 3rd level, you gain a new bloodline spell and two other 2nd-level spells, and so on.

So it spells out what classes get spells for free and how many.

I don't have a prepared caster played above 1st Level, so I haven't looked too closely at the Learn a Spell activity, but I do have a 4th Level Primal Sorcerer, and a 5th Level Fighter multiclassed as Divine Sorcerer.

How does this affect them?

I don't have a prepared caster played above 1st Level, so I haven't looked too closely at the Learn a Spell activity, but I do have a 4th Level Primal Sorcerer, and a 5th Level Fighter multiclassed as Divine Sorcerer.

How does this affect them?

I believe now that some stuff has been cleared up this ruling only affects Clerics, Druids, and Wizards to a lesser extent.

Wizards for example, can only select their starting 5 spells and their 2 free spells upon level up from the CRB. They have the same text for their spellbooks as Druids and Clerics have for spells that they prepare. See here:

You choose these from the common spells on the arcane spell list from this book (page 307) or from other arcane spells you gain access to.

[...]

Each time you gain a level, you add two more arcane spells to your spellbook, of any level of spell you can cast.

Since the level up text doesn't specify restrictions it's probably intended to use the same text as the initial 5, elsewise they could pick arcane spells they do not have access to and add those.

So it spells out what classes get spells for free and how many.

Yes, and just for reference, here's the relevant language for Clerics and Druids, since they use a different mechanic to determine what list they draw on each day to prepare spells from (i.e. their entire tradition vs a spellbook, familiar, or repertoire).

At 1st level, you can prepare two 1st-level spells and five cantrips each morning from the common spells on the divine spell list in this book (page 309) or from other divine spells to which you gain access. Prepared spells remain available to you until you cast them or until you prepare your spells again. The number of spells you can prepare is called your spell slots.

As you increase in level as a cleric, the number of spells you can prepare each day increases, as does the highest level of spell you can cast, as shown in Table 3–9: Cleric Spells per Day on page 120.

At 1st level, you can prepare two 1st-level spells and five cantrips each morning from the common spells on the primal spell list in this book (page 314), or from other primal spells to which you gain access. Prepared spells remain available to you until you cast them or until you prepare your spells again. The number of spells you can prepare is called your spell slots.

As you increase in level as a druid, the number of spells you can prepare each day increases, as does the highest level of spell you can cast, as shown in Table 3–11: Druid Spells per Day on page 132.

Obviously, a big sticking point is how expansive "or other divine/primal spells to which you gain access" is. A straightforward interpretation of it would indicate that a spell being of Common rarity is enough to give you access. I think the confused reaction to the announcement that it does not gain you access speaks to that.

As of yet, we don't have other classes from outside the CRB that use the same mechanic as Clerics and Druids, and we don't have Shamans or something similar on the horizon yet either. I will note, though, that the language which references what spells you can draw on is not consistent even among classes in the CRB. The Sorcerer just says you cast spells from the tradition associated with your bloodline, and does not specify that they come from the CRB's spell list.

The Witch and Oracle have no such language specifying a particular book from which to draw their spells, either. This could, under the new ruling, be interpreted to mean that they may (without an additional investiture of gold and time) only learn new spells from the APG, or that they inherently have a broader access to their traditions than CRB classes. I don't think either of those is an intended result.

Huh. Ok.

Am I the only one who thinks it's strange that Core prepared casters have to jump through hoops to learn spells outside of the CRB, but Core spontaneous casters don't?

Blake's Tiger wrote:

Losonti wrote:

No other caster has to do anything extra to get those spells, either, they can just pick them up on level up.

So we assume that any other option that grants a spell from Divine or Primal spell list--other than being a cleric or druid--can select from the full list of all products?

I apologize, but I don't quite understand what you're asking here.

That if this CRB Common Divine and Primal spells are the only ones Clerics and Druids have access too, but being a Divine or Primal Sorcerer, Oracle, Divine or Primal Witch or multiclassing Divine or Primal Sorcerer, Oracle, or Divine or Primal Witch archetypes (plus taking Basic Spellcasting for higher level spells), or any other feat that's not Cleric or Druid archetype (there's at least one) that lets you "select a spell" from the divine or primal spell list can choose from all the Common Divine and Primal spells of any legal source when you are given the opportunity to select a spell.

I.e. Clerics and Druids are the only class restricted in what book they can take their spells.

I.e. Clerics and Druids are the only class restricted in what book they can take their spells.

Wizards are similarly restricted for their free spells (see above).

Wei Ji the Learner wrote:

I thought the 'drawback' to Druids and Clerics was having Anathema, not paying retail for training in new spells from a new sourcebook?

I mean, that's what my general take on this was?

Or is this the counter-balance to watering down Anathema for Organized Play purposes?

This has nothing to do with Org Play. This is a direct explanation from the design team that this is how it was supposed to work.

I'm not at all sure that I believe this (I believe that YOU have been told this, just to be clear). It is such an insanely silly way to read the rules. It very much feels like a Post Hoc justification.

If this WAS always the intent then the design team then they really, really need to strive hard to be clearer in future. Perhaps they should make sure that the books go through a further review process where outsiders look at the books and tell them what they ACTUALLY say. When one has written the rules and read them many times it is very easy to see what they mean and not what they say

Jimmy Dick wrote:

My wizard is so happy with the ruling on spells for prepared casters!

What ruling?

I was thrilled that there were tutors at the Grand Lodge for wizard to learn any common spell from. We no longer had to buy a scroll to do so, just pay the cost to Learn a Spell.

I'm not happy with the impact on Clerics and Druids though.

Sagian wrote:

Jimmy Dick wrote:

My wizard is so happy with the ruling on spells for prepared casters!

What ruling?

I was thrilled that there were tutors at the Grand Lodge for wizard to learn any common spell from. We no longer had to buy a scroll to do so, just pay the cost to Learn a Spell.

I think, just like I've been the only person paying for copies of formulas, you were probably the only person doing this =\

Jimmy Dick wrote:

Sagian wrote:

Jimmy Dick wrote:

My wizard is so happy with the ruling on spells for prepared casters!

What ruling?

I was thrilled that there were tutors at the Grand Lodge for wizard to learn any common spell from. We no longer had to buy a scroll to do so, just pay the cost to Learn a Spell.

I think, just like I've been the only person paying for copies of formulas, you were probably the only person doing this =\

I have spent 181g on formulas for my Investigator. Now I'm going to have to spend a lot more on learning spells to fill out his spell book.

I do have a question that I don't think has been answered. For every scenario in Year 1 that we got a boon in, do we now have to go back and purchase them for each character? And I am confused on the "one boon of a particular type" limitation. All the boons appear to be "general" or "advanced", there are no types. So does this mean my character can only slot one general and one advanced boon? Then, if I have nothing but general boons, I'm basically choosing one and moving on. Or am I mis-understanding this, and the scenario boons as they are now listed on the website (Which are thankfully free for now) have been altered to give them a type.

I do have a question that I don't think has been answered. For every scenario in Year 1 that we got a boon in, do we now have to go back and purchase them for each character? And I am confused on the "one boon of a particular type" limitation. All the boons appear to be "general" or "advanced", there are no types. So does this mean my character can only slot one general and one advanced boon? Then, if I have nothing but general boons, I'm basically choosing one and moving on. Or am I mis-understanding this, and the scenario boons as they are now listed on the website (Which are thankfully free for now) have been altered to give them a type.

Yes that's how they work. For example a Hireling is an Ally boon, same as Incredible Protégé. You can't bring both with you in a scenario since they're both Ally boons. The same would go for General and Advanced boons.

They may have changed some of the boons, so downloading them wouldn't be a bad idea just to make sure their slots weren't changed. A lot of the year 1 boons didn't have a type, making them slotless, meaning you can always bring it with you.

Update: That's how they USED to work. The new rules are here.

You can't bring both with you in a scenario since they're both Ally boons. The same would go for General and Advanced boons.

That's not a PFS2 rule and never has been.

A lot of the year 1 boons didn't have a type, making them slotless, meaning you can always bring it with you.

Also no tags != slotless.

I just have to say to the team (and folks who agree with all these changes mid-season):

This has been a really stressful year for all of us. On top of all the crap going on in the world, many of us have had to forego playing this game in-person, which can be a life line for our sanity.

What people need right now is some fun distraction from 2020, not a bunch of rules that are about limiting play options rather than adding fun.

Asking us to absorb major new changes in the campaign, while doing a very poor job at communications, just makes me want to leave Pathfinder Society altogether.

I know these times are also hard on the Paizo team — they're hard on everyone. But I'm begging Alex, Tonya, Michael, and the wider Paizo team to be more cognizant of the weight of world events affecting players. Don't ask us to absorb ill communicated rules changes when we're having to adapt to so many more important things in our lives.

I really wish you'd just roll these changes back. I for one intend to mostly ignore them for games that I do play in Society. Y'all can ban me if you like, or maybe try revisiting the changes in a clearer, less disruptive way once COVID-19 and the elections are behind us.

This has been a really stressful year for all of us.

Sending virtual hugs ^_^

I for one intend to mostly ignore them for games that I do play in Society. Y'all can ban me if you like, or maybe try revisiting the changes in a clearer, less disruptive way once COVID-19 and the elections are behind us.

Since there is one vocal poster in this Forum who likes to jump out of the gate calling people "cheaters" for not playing his way, let me be the first to say I support you.

I am still holding out hope that Leadership does the right thing and allows rebuilds for players who were adversely affected by these recent changes.

As a GM who generally runs games online every week, I have started telling my players about the changes, but that I don't plan on enforcing them immediately.

Since the aim is to have the AcP system finished by year's end anyways, I think that is a reasonable timeframe to allow people to adapt and heal.

caps wrote:

Being able to learn spells from tutors is nice... But we need a PFS campaign rule allowing Learn a Spell to be a downtime activity. Or a ruling saying we can learn as many spells as we want (or a specific limited number of them) between scenarios. Otherwise only people who take the feat(s) that make it a downtime activity can take advantage of said tutors.

Learn a Spell is an Exploration Activity that takes *time*, so a PFS PC must have time as well as money to spend learning spells (either during a scenario or during downtime, their only two opportunities to spend time as a resource) and be in Exploration mode.

This came up in a discussion among VOs and Paizo folks. Because it is an exploration activity that takes place at the Grand Lodge, there really aren't any hard limits/restrictions at the end of a scenario aside from gold-spending limits (i.e. you can only afford so much at once) and a reasonable amount of time as determined by your GM.

Then we need a statement from the OP team to that effect. In the guide, or at *least* in a blog post.

I know these times are also hard on the Paizo team — they're hard on everyone. But I'm begging Alex, Tonya, Michael, and the wider Paizo team to be more cognizant of the weight of world events affecting players.

This might be one of the most passive aggressive things I have ever read on this forum. Do you actually know how bad it is for them because I've read things from Paizo employees that shows the answer is clearly no.

Steven Schopmeyer wrote:

Agreed. The announcement of this decision was flawed.

I guess Org Play Leadership assumed everyone was already playing by these rules, and that they didn't think this was an "announcement" at all?

That seems unlikely since this "clarification" runs counter to what the CRB says and 50 years of history with clerics and druids.

Saint Bernard de Clairveaux wrote:

This has been a really stressful year for all of us.

Sending virtual hugs ^_^

approval first :-P

Nefreet wrote:

Steven Schopmeyer wrote:

Agreed. The announcement of this decision was flawed.

I guess Org Play Leadership assumed everyone was already playing by these rules, and that they didn't think this was an "announcement" at all?

That seems unlikely since this "clarification" runs counter to what the CRB says and 50 years of history with clerics and druids.

Then clerics should only use blunt weapons and druids have to kill each other to gain levels.

Nefreet wrote:

Steven Schopmeyer wrote:

Agreed. The announcement of this decision was flawed.

I guess Org Play Leadership assumed everyone was already playing by these rules, and that they didn't think this was an "announcement" at all?

That seems unlikely since this "clarification" runs counter to what the CRB says and 50 years of history with clerics and druids.

So much of PF2 runs counter to 50 years of D&D, including the Action economy. That isn't really an argument at this point.

andreww wrote:

Nefreet wrote:

Steven Schopmeyer wrote:

Agreed. The announcement of this decision was flawed.

I guess Org Play Leadership assumed everyone was already playing by these rules, and that they didn't think this was an "announcement" at all?

That seems unlikely since this "clarification" runs counter to what the CRB says and 50 years of history with clerics and druids.

So much of PF2 runs counter to 50 years of D&D, including the Action economy. That isn't really an argument at this point.

No, but the past 14 months of PF2 (or 7 months of Gods & Magic if you want to restrict it to when there was another book with spells) is. We're not talking about the unveiling of PF2 here. We're talking about a sudden reversal couched as a "clarification."

Jared Thaler wrote:

andreww wrote:

Nefreet wrote:

Steven Schopmeyer wrote:

Agreed. The announcement of this decision was flawed.

I guess Org Play Leadership assumed everyone was already playing by these rules, and that they didn't think this was an "announcement" at all?

That seems unlikely since this "clarification" runs counter to what the CRB says and 50 years of history with clerics and druids.

So much of PF2 runs counter to 50 years of D&D, including the Action economy. That isn't really an argument at this point.

No, but the past 14 months of PF2 (or 7 months of Gods & Magic if you want to restrict it to when there was another book with spells) is. We're not talking about the unveiling of PF2 here. We're talking about a sudden reversal couched as a "clarification."

Yes, and what they are saying is this is how it was supposed to work for all of those 14 months. So unless you are saying they are lying, it is a clarification of a rule people misunderstood couched as a clarification.

I will say one thing in Paizo's favor, this isn't the first time a rule has been used (or ignored) by virtually the entire community and they were not aware of it. Years ago Jason was surprised to find all the 1E bi-pedal animal companions wearing armor and wielding weapons. He wrote a blog to "correct" the intention of the rules. This seems to be a similar situation. Apparently at some point, org play leadership discovered that people were ignoring the intent of the cleric/druid spell access rules and had to clarify it.

If that is the case, I give them a pass from the perspective of just clarifying what the designer intent was. What I think most of us agree on, however, is it's a bad rule and should be errata'd.

Jared Thaler wrote:

andreww wrote:

Nefreet wrote:

Steven Schopmeyer wrote:

Agreed. The announcement of this decision was flawed.

I guess Org Play Leadership assumed everyone was already playing by these rules, and that they didn't think this was an "announcement" at all?

That seems unlikely since this "clarification" runs counter to what the CRB says and 50 years of history with clerics and druids.

So much of PF2 runs counter to 50 years of D&D, including the Action economy. That isn't really an argument at this point.

No, but the past 14 months of PF2 (or 7 months of Gods & Magic if you want to restrict it to when there was another book with spells) is. We're not talking about the unveiling of PF2 here. We're talking about a sudden reversal couched as a "clarification."

Dressing up errata as a clarification is one of Paizo's bad habits.