Kingmaker Update

IIRC Paizo has never said they would provide the pdfs earlier. I don't really see why people seem to accuse them of acting in bad faith. And yes, I did back the project, so they have my money too.

Really, I am already happy that we will get something. I know that many, many people did not get this from crowdfunding projects they backed.

You really want your Kingmaker Adventure Path Val'bryn2.

I paid them $230 for it three years ago, yes, I am ready to see exactly what I paid for. I have had bad experiences with buying a product from Paizo,back when they sold PDFs of AD&D books, only to come back a month or so later and Wizards of the Coast had had Paizo take them down. Didn't get a refund or anything, just a couple weeks access. Since then I have enjoyed Pathfinder, but my trust in Paizo as a company has been a little shaky.

While I can partly say that I want the Kingmaker adventure path, mostly I want to see that my money hasn't been thrown away. I want the product I have paid for, long ago.

No one is suggesting that it would only be made available for just the people who pledged on Game on Tabletop, just that they go ahead and release to them early, since they have already paid for the product. I got a lot of add-ons for it, not even worried about those at the moment.

As for suggesting it wouldn't be "fair", is it any more fair to have had our money for years, but only release the material to us when they finally manage to get it to where other people can buy it at the same time? That's the thing, we are only asking for content that we already own to be given to us, since we have been more than patient

Let me be more clear, then. I know nobody is suggesting that it would be permanently unavailable to them. Having several months where everyone else can only pirate would probably be really bad for Paizo.

They have had our money for years, and we just get told to be patient, they'll get to us, while it already looks like they're winding down second edition, considering the next books are supposed to be bestiary types, rather than player options, unless they have changed what they consider bestiaries.

They have changed what they consider bestiaries. Or, I think it might be more accurate to not call these books bestiaries. PF1 had a player's companion with a bunch of fey options, and a campaign setting book about the First World and different fey. The new "bestiaries" are more or less those two rolled together, but with a higher page count. For the big book o' undead, we already know it's going to have lore content for different regions with undead, playable undead (both as ancestries and as archetypes), options for fighting undead, options for controlling undead, and an undead eidolon. Additionally, it sounds like the bestiary portion will have a strong focus on summonable undead- that bestiary section is listed as "massive", so it's probably still the biggest portion. Plus, it comes with an adventure about fighting undead.

I don't think it's winding down second edition, just providing books more focused on a theme than a particular type of content. If a group wants something undead-focused, they grab the book about undead, and it's got some of everything.

Fumarole wrote:

Three years out of date, lol. Second edition isn't even three years old, nor is this project. The project is a bit over a year late, and will likely be released about a year and a half after the first projected date.

I'm happy to wait, for it's only late until it's shipped, but if it's bad it is likely bad forever.

Might want to check things before posting, I put in my payment for this thing May 19th of 2019, which makes this just 2 months shy of 3 years since the shipping price was calculated. Ample time for prices to be increased.

Are you living in the future? May 19th is three months from today. Might want to check your calendar before posting.

Of course they would have estimated shipping costs for the expected shipment date (late 2020). Which is about fourteen months ago. So no, the amount charged for shipping is nowhere close to three years out of date.

My apologies, didn't realize this was going to be a place for singing Paizo's praises when they haven't delivered the product, where any voicing of annoyance was going to be met with personal attacks.

I am sorry that the fact that I, and others, are growing tired waiting for a project that we funded to finally be released, and are annoyed at being treated like we are out of line for pointing out that we should be given what we paid for, regardless of how things go with brick and mortar stores. You may have not noticed this, but most books they release aren't down as Kickstarters, so no, expecting me to wait until it's released in stores is not something I find acceptable, because this is not a preorder. If it was to be treated exactly the same, why would I bother supporting the Kickstarter when I can get the exact same thing by waiting?

Throwing insults will get you called out, no matter what side you're on.

This isn't a black and white situation, you don't have a moral high ground to demand a punching bag and get upset that people are calling you on it, especially when a big part of your posts is trying to throw others underfoot (brick and mortar stores) for your own immediate gratification, you're not gaining any points for stuff like that

"If it was to be treated exactly the same, why would I bother supporting the Kickstarter when I can get the exact same thing by waiting?"

that's always been an option.

Does anyone know if they are going to be charging more for shipping, since the quoted price is now three years out of date, or if they are honoring their original estimate?

FWIW VAT tariffs on these products have completely changed in the EU (basically, they were exempted before and have to pay the full 20% in France now).

Should I expect Paizo to shoulder these in my stead ? I think not.

If I were you, I would start putting some money on the side for the additional costs to be expected.

Throwing insults will get you called out, no matter what side you're on.

This isn't a black and white situation, you don't have a moral high ground to demand a punching bag and get upset that people are calling you on it, especially when a big part of your posts is trying to throw others underfoot (brick and mortar stores) for your own immediate gratification, you're not gaining any points for stuff like that

"If it was to be treated exactly the same, why would I bother supporting the Kickstarter when I can get the exact same thing by waiting?"

that's always been an option.

Also moving the goalposts just to end up again venting frustration at Paizo for things they never promised and feeling insulted when people object does not really help IMO.

I might ask - how many other crowdfunding campaigns have you participated in?

And how many of those have been cut through with an ongoing international mass death event?

Once again, the words of Ralph Waldo Emerson would seem to apply.

“Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.”

It's fine to be frustrated. Sometimes things just suck, and we are being made more aware of that every day the pandemic drags on. If there is someone to blame, they're far too distant for us to reach, and so we look for those we can. And you know what? That's crappy behavior. Literally what is Paizo supposed to do? Drop other important projects that they need to finish? Force developers to work longer unpaid hours? I am sympathetic to anyone who feels frustrated, but looking for a punching bag is not the answer.

Sometimes products get delayed. Crowdfunding campaigns are especially risky and imprecise, especially when it comes to release dates, even when there's not multiple apocalypses taking place (Paizo staffers also went through the horrible wildfire season of 2020, I believe, which few outside the PNW even heard much about).

Sometimes things suck and you don't get to "punish" someone for it. Sometimes it's not really anyone's fault at all--at least, not anyone you'll ever be able to access to shout at. Shouting at Paizo staffers is awful and accomplishes nothing except discouraging them from ever trying to create products that will attract you again.

Removed a few personally harassing posts. Calling others names is not acceptable.

Delayed again. Ridiculous.

Delayed again. Ridiculous.

What part’s ridiculous - that a book would be interrupted by delays in printing and shipping caused by several years of an international mass death event?

Industry pals tell me they see nine month waits at every printer. The docks everywhere are in disarray (see also: Strength of Thousands #6 being months late). We’re creeping up on a million dead in America, and plenty more than that beyond our borders.

Covid is serious stuff; a book used to play pretend is not. If you care more about the latter than the former, I don’t know what to tell you.

What do you mean? I haven't seen a delayed announcement.

Luke Styer wrote:

Delayed again. Ridiculous.

What part’s ridiculous - that a book would be interrupted by delays in printing and shipping caused by several years of an international mass death event?

Industry pals tell me they see nine month waits at every printer. The docks everywhere are in disarray (see also: Strength of Thousands #6 being months late). We’re creeping up on a million dead in America, and plenty more than that beyond our borders.

Covid is serious stuff; a book used to play pretend is not. If you care more about the latter than the former, I don’t know what to tell you.

It does appear that some of the delay is on the workflow side at Paizo. The information shared on the blog, the Pawn box, three flipmaps are in warehouse. The hero point token, pin, and dice set are in production.

The AP and Companion Guide are in their last editing pass. The bestiaries are in approvals, and Map Folio, Kingdom management screen, tracker accessory and poster need the AP to have been finalized before production.

Erik Mona expects them to be off to the printers by April, and thus receiving the printed materials 3 months later, give or take.

So, I'm sure the pandemic had a hand in these delays, but blaming shipping and printing is just inaccurate at this point. Most of the books haven't been sent to the printer yet.

To be honest, since I didn't back all the extras, I forgot just how much material they are producing for this. I'm sure delays like this occur all the time in a project of this size, but when a project is crowd funded, normal delays turn into a mess because people become aware of them much sooner.

Here's the update.

What do you mean? I haven't seen a delayed announcement.

Today’s Game On Tabletop update

I see. Looks nice though. Paizo looks like the 2E Kingmaker will be pretty awesome when it does come out.

I didn't even look up the update. I'll have it when it finally does release.

Sucks, but I'm not surprised! I'll just have to shift gears on what I'm planning to run after Strength of Thousands. I'd rather them take their time than put out a subpar product.

At least I was easily able to decide whether to attend PaizoCon.

I find it interesting that a product that has been paid for already is delayed by years, while they still manage to push out plenty of other products.

Now they are a company, but they have become a pretty crappy one (or at least more visibly a crappy one) over the last years.

I don’t blame James Jacobs or the other contributors, but do blame management who don’t live up to their commitment. While it is a crowdfunded project, I judge paizo just as much on this as on their other products. Honestly even more so, because if you did already receive the money you have a bigger responsibility than if you still have to sell the product.

Crowdfunding is not buying.

And Paizo clearly did not integrate this project into their usual production planning, maybe because they had no idea it would even be successful.

For example, I don't think they counted on this to pay the wages or that they hired new people for this just in case it would be successful.

This is what planned products are for.

Combine this with the company's inner turmoil, the pandemics and the international logistics basically exploding and it sure explains a lot.

Covid is serious stuff; a book used to play pretend is not. If you care more about the latter than the former, I don’t know what to tell you.

I dunno. I usually agree with you, but the implication that if someone is frustrated by repeated product delays they can't care about people dying from COVID is kind of out there.

I think everyone needs to take a step back. Product delays are frustrating and annoying, but it will come out when it comes out, ideally sooner rather than later but we'll see. Clearly this is a tumultuous time, both because of global events and internal issues at Paizo.

But this cycle of reaction-counterreaction-countercounterreaction is only going to serve to make everyone more uneasy in a time where I don't think anyone needs more of that.

Imagine how Star Citizen crowd funders feel. Kingmaker is going to come out. Star Citizen maybe never.

What part’s ridiculous - that a book would be interrupted by delays in printing and shipping caused by several years of an international mass death event?

No, the part where they collected the money for the book that has been interrupted umpteen times, while putting out dozens of books that they haven’t already collected the money for.

a book used to play pretend is not [serious]

Books used to play pretend seem to be serious enough that thousands of people give publishers money for them every month, thus employing a fair number of people. Some people would call it an idustry.

If you care more about the latter than the former, I don’t know what to tell you.

Yes, everyone who is exasperated about a company’s failure to deliver a product for which it’s already been paid thinks COVID isn’t “serious stuff.” That’s the obvious take-away.

Crowdfunding is not buying.

If we’re dealing with some rando start-up, sure. I have contributed to a number of crowd-funded projects over the years that didn’t deliver, and while I’ve never been happy, I’ve not been terribly surprised. Paizo isn’t some rando start-up, though, so this seems a little different.

And Paizo clearly did not integrate this project into their usual production planning,

It’s pretty clear that Paizo wasn’t prepared to publish this project.

For example, I don't think they counted on this to pay the wages or that they hired new people for this just in case it would be successful.

Not counting on the money they raised with this project to pay for this project sounds even worse project management than even I was thinking of.

This is what planned the pandemics and the international logistics basically exploding and it sure explains a lot.

I’m not sure what the pandemic or international logistics have to do with the fact that the main book isn’t even ready to go to the printer yet. Were pages being written overseas and sent to Paizo via container ship?

There have been a fair number of delays in products that Paizo has’t already been paid for, but they’ve generally made it to market, probably because Paizo doesn’t get paid for them if they don’t. Like you said, though, I guess “crowdfunding is not buying,” and Paizo isn’t going to give that money back even if they never publish the books they’ve been paid to publish.

Luke, I’m going to be sincere when I ask: have you ever backed a crowdfunding project before? It’s not a store, there’s no guarantee of your reward, and delays are omnipresent. I’ve got 99 Kickstarters under my belt, and what’s happened to Kingmaker 2e - again, with the context that the last two years have been a screaming nightmare - is not a surprise.

You’re welcome to be disappointed, but this vitriol is unearned, and speaks to a lack of familiarity with how these things work.

I still don't see how insulting Paizo will make them deliver faster.

Luke, I’m going to be sincere when I ask: have you ever backed a crowdfunding project before?

Yes, and many have failed to deliver, but none by an established, generally successful company in the business of producing the specific kind of product they failed to deliver. This is not some amateur trying to self-publish his first book from his home office. This is a company that has published thousands of pages in dozens of books JUST during the time it’s failed to publish this project, and that’s putting aside more than a decade of prior experience successfully producing EXACTLY this kind of product.

You’re welcome to be disappointed, but this vitriol is unearned, and speaks to a lack of familiarity with how these things work.

This isn’t vitriol, it’s an expression of frustration. I’m a subscriber to basically the entire 2E line, and that’s not going to change. But “delays are omnipresent” doesn’t excuse delays, especially when all I’m doing is complaining a bit.

I still don't see how insulting Paizo will make them deliver faster.

I’m not aware of anything that would.

This kind of thing is exactly why I stopped buying into, promoting, or contributing work toward any crowdfunding product, system, or service.

It is an extremely confusing situation for users the VAST majority of the time and almost ALL such projects end up being delayed at least 6 months to three years after the initial estimated finish/delivery date. It's bad PR for companies, it causes the organization that makes it to lose a sizable cut from the money made via the crowdfunding platform, and there is absolutely no legal or financial recourse for situations where the project fails to ever actually end up being made/shipped/produced.

If Paizo, third-party publishers, freelancers, board game companies, customers, and everyone else working in the hobby abandoned ever using crowdfunding again it would be an undeniable win for everyone involved. The benefits of this kind of "sales/promotion" method are far outweighed by the landfill of reasons why it is less than ideal if you're actually looking to make a quality product and deliver it to people. I am of the mind that it jumped the shark around the time that KS got pushed into the popular mainstream with the Potato Salad project/meme and there has been shockingly little done since then to improve crowdfunding, instead what happened is a dozen other crowdfunding orgs popped up to make a quick dime without risking any financial loss or legal consequences whatsoever.

That's a wise decision. After backing over 250 projects, I still don't feel regret or anger, even for the couple that disappeared. Maybe having my first one be delayed a year and end up useless as a 3.5 sourcebook in a Pathfinder world tempered my expectations. I'm trying to be more circumspect about what I back due to financial burdens, but I totally understand anyone that avoids them on a moral standpoint.

The Raven Black wrote:

Crowdfunding is not buying.

If we’re dealing with some rando start-up, sure. I have contributed to a number of crowd-funded projects over the years that didn’t deliver, and while I’ve never been happy, I’ve not been terribly surprised. Paizo isn’t some rando start-up, though, so this seems a little different.

Quote:

And Paizo clearly did not integrate this project into their usual production planning,

It’s pretty clear that Paizo wasn’t prepared to publish this project.

Quote:

For example, I don't think they counted on this to pay the wages or that they hired new people for this just in case it would be successful.

Not counting on the money they raised with this project to pay for this project sounds even worse project management than even I was thinking of.

Quote:

This is what planned the pandemics and the international logistics basically exploding and it sure explains a lot.

I’m not sure what the pandemic or international logistics have to do with the fact that the main book isn’t even ready to go to the printer yet. Were pages being written overseas and sent to Paizo via container ship?

There have been a fair number of delays in products that Paizo has’t already been paid for, but they’ve generally made it to market, probably because Paizo doesn’t get paid for them if they don’t. Like you said, though, I guess “crowdfunding is not buying,” and Paizo isn’t going to give that money back even if they never publish the books they’ve been paid to publish.

1. Jumping to "They're never going to publish it, they just robbed us." is a leap.

I've read through the thread since my last post and chose to keep them all in. We do understand being upset and aren't trying to take away those feelings. But to think that a global pandemic hasn't affected our business operations, to say nothing of our personal mental/physical health, would be ignoring facts. To everyone who is advocating grace for our staff, thank you. The past two years have taken a toll on everyone and we appreciate your positive thoughts!

I find it interesting that a product that has been paid for already is delayed by years, while they still manage to push out plenty of other products.

So if they stopped producing any other products so that they could do this, what would you say?

2. Yes they've continued to put out books that are not Kingmaker. Do you not think that the majority of their readership would be just as upset as you if they put all other lines on hold to get Kingmaker out the door?

If only there were possibilities that aren’t either “shut down the entire line until Kingmaker comes out” or “delay Kingmaker by roughly two years.” It’s really too bad those are literally the only choices.

3. "They've generally made it to market." Sure, but some of those have gotten significantly delayed too when they went wildly beyond the original scope.

A pretty small fraction has been significantly delayed. A few months here and there I don’t even blink at under current circumstances.

4. Throughout this fulfillment process, Paizo has been extremely communicative about delays that have occurred.

That’s a very fair point.

And just because this particular delay isn't related to the printing and shipping disasters that are ongoing or directly related to the 2 year pandemic we're still in the middle of, doesn't mean those things don't have an impact.

I imagine it’s had a pretty major impact, but I don’t buy that it explains the extent to which this project has been delayed.

But I know that there are actual people working on the books that don't deserve to be accused of stealing from me.

I certainly don’t think Paizo stole anything, and I figure it’ll probably come out eventually (I’m not betting on September when the book still isn’t ready to go the printer), though I can see how the chorus of “you didn’t actually buy anything” suggests that some folks think Paizo isn’t going to publish.

We're all fairly sure that Paizo is going to publish the book. That's not incompatible with the statement 'crowdfunding is not the same as retail purchasing'.

The Raven Black wrote:

I still don't see how insulting Paizo will make them deliver faster.

I’m not aware of anything that would.

Boat loads more money and better shipping conditions would do it.

Boat loads more money and better shipping conditions would do it.

If half a million didn’t didn’t get the book out in two years, it’d presumably take several boat loads. Shipping conditions are irrelevant for now, though, since the book isn’t even ready to print.

What's funny to me is that in the time it took for this crowdfunding to put the product out, assuming it is finally ships in July 2022 (might be pushed back more) is that I will have had time to:

1: Crowdfund
2: Wait for the release date
3: wait some more for the release date
4: After a year of waiting, get tired of it.
5: Design my own army battle rules for 2e
6: design my own kingdom management rules for 2e
7: write all of these into foundry
8: Plan all 6 chapters of kingmaker plus extras and convert all important NPC's and maps into foundry.
9: Finish an entire campaign of Kingmaker (they're starting varnhold vanishing now, depending on rate of play we should be either finishing up sound of a thousand scream or beginning it by then)

Kinda makes me feel the buyers remorse.

I've backed 100s of crowd funding things, been burned by a couple; upset about some others (and some overlap in those two).

When I pledged, I expected this one to be roughly 2 years late given the various warning signs/past crowd funding efforts of Paizo. Back in December that felt like it might hold true; now we see it won't. But I wasn't 'pricing in' pandemic related issues at the time.

My 2 year delay was predicated on considering Paizo as a company/entity w/o much crowd funding experience, who would get emotionally/enthusiastically caught up in stretch goals w/o proper budgeting/forecasting, and treating the crowd-funding project as a 'side gig' that had to happen in stolen hours from the regular scheduled stuff.

We can ignore shipping/pandemic/still resolving fallout from Ever Given issues since most of this project isn't in shipping yet, so its not comparable to some of the subscription delays we've seen. We have seen a couple product slip by a month (normally presented as shipping related, but who knows). Lost Omens: Absalom is the only one I can think of that felt long delayed from the in-house end. All the other release cadences have felt unchanged. So it does feel like, as the schedule slipped, and Paizo got more clarity of the project, other things weren't shuffled around to ensure its delivery.

I can understand the next ~year of product being planned out and it being tough to grab additional hours in the first year of production; but by the second year, I feel they probably could have/should have delayed other new products in order to make this land.

Erik's confidence in the spring date felt like maybe they had done some of that re-arrangement, but the announcement of the further slip/his apology makes me wonder how much of it was built on best case/optimistic planning now. Like with LO: Absolom, it kinda feels like Paizo is really built along everything always hitting its deadlines, and once something starts to slip, theres a cultural problem over how to save it.

TOZ wrote:

Boat loads more money and better shipping conditions would do it.

If half a million didn’t didn’t get the book out in two years, it’d presumably take several boat loads. Shipping conditions are irrelevant for now, though, since the book isn’t even ready to print.

I don’t see anything contradictory in those statements so I’ll agree.

Has they announced some ¨Mea Culpa¨ freebies for backers? Something like a bonus digital dungeon or something after release. It is customary for video game developers that want to retain goodwill after a botched release.