Core Principles: Conversion in the Pathfinder ACG

Friday, June 7, 2019

Hello! My name is Chad, and I'm here to talk to you about converting to the Church of... wait, wrong spiel. This is about converting existing PACG materials to the new rules and conventions of the Pathfinder Adventure Card Game: Core Set and beyond. The Core Set rulebook includes some guidelines for conversion already, on page 26.

Here, I'll talk about the rhyme and reason for conversion guidelines, and also discuss some new, more specific changes from the new Conversion Guide we just released today. (There's a link to it at the bottom of this blog, but we'd love it if you finish this blog introducing it before you click!) I'm going to touch on several high-level topics in no particular order; let's get started!

With the release of the Core Set, we were given a chance to streamline the game a bit and clean up both card and rules text, to remove murky or confusing corner cases. As you probably know, we knew right from the start that we wanted to maintain compatibility with all the previously published Adventure Paths and Class Decks, but we were ok with making some high-level changes, just so long as we could easily explain to everyone how things should be updated—ideally without resorting to a gigantic list of individual card changes.

Recovery

The first of these changes I want to talk about here is recovery. When we launched the PACG with Rise of the Runelords in 2013, there were a few areas of the game that could get a little more complicated than we'd hoped. (Who would have thought that adapting a tabletop roleplaying game with thousands of pages of rules and an active human moderator to a card game could lead to complexity?) To help navigate these waters, we eventually shared our guiding principles.

Unfortunately, there was one pretty common situation where it seemed like the principles didn't entirely agree. It had to do with playing cards during an encounter when the card played wanted some extra steps for resolution. This includes nearly all spells, as well as a smattering of effects across other parts of the game. The issue is basically "What do I do with these cards that are ‘in flight'? Do I stop what I'm doing and resolve them, or hold them in abeyance while I finish the task? In the meantime, are these cards in my hand, in my discards, or something else?" The vast majority of the time, things work out exactly the same either way, but when things get really tight (usually because your deck is low and the bane is especially mean), suddenly you can find situations where you really care precisely where those cards are at specific points in time.

Our answer to this issue is recovery. When cards that need these extra steps are played, now they go into a special, designated place (so you're no longer wondering where they are), and then they're processed at the end of the current turn. This last part also helps with overall game flow, because the next player rarely needs to wait to start their turn while others are doing recovery. As a nice side effect, it lets us clarify and simplify the wording on spells:

More room for art, more functionality, and clearer wording. Win!

Using the former approach, we would tell you to discard the spell, which to most people means "put it in your discards." Then, after playing it, you'd check to see if something happened to make it go somewhere else. Internally, I called this the "banish-discard-or-maybe-recharge" effect, and when that mouthful is the shorthand, you know you don't actually have a winner. That said, when people were learning the game, they'd often go through the process of seeing spells, and then saying "My character isn't a spellcaster, so I don't care about these cards at all...", and then follow that with "wait a minute, I can use these spells as one-shot effects. They're like scrolls!" (In game design, when you can help new players ignore a chunk of the game while learning and later come to understand that it can help them after all, it's nearly always a good thing.)

Since we'd been playing with these concepts for many moons, it was clear to us what to do, and thankfully, it was also clear to most of you, most of the time. But... What happens if there's a bane that buries cards from your discards, or counts the cards in your hand? What about a location effect that takes cards that would be banished and instead shuffles them into the location? What about a scenario power that forbids you from recharging cards? As we (and you!) made more and more interesting, varied, special powers, the answer "it works out the same either way" started being untrue more and more often. Eventually, we resolved these questions in an explicit way, but that also required a pretty deep understanding of the game, and practically speaking, usually required one to review the FAQ/errata with a hawk-sharp eye.

Starting with Core and Curse of the Crimson Throne, spells just tell you how to play them as if they were scrolls, a usage available to everyone. The rules tell you "Hey, after you wring the juicy goodness from that card, just toss it into your ‘clean it up at the end of the turn' pile, and go on about your business."

Once we'd implemented this for spells, we also pushed it through to alchemical goodies, which have more prominence from now on thanks to Fumbus, the new iconic Goblin Alchemist. We think this approach is cleaner (that is, fewer murky rules corners) and often results in shorter, clearer wording, so we're also going to use it on other things with similar functionality.

Repetition: the Key to Comedy... and to Bad Gameplay

That gets me to the other big impetus for recovery, something near and dear to my heart as a game designer: avoiding repetitive play. This part is good medicine for making the game healthier in general, and like other medications, it's sometimes a bit bitter, so prepare yourself. There are several ways to express this principle. The one we talk about during PACG development is a statement Mike stole from designer Jonathan Tweet: "Never pay the player to do what you don't want them to do."

I'm talking about repetitive play—i.e., a situation where game design allows a player to be effective just doing the same thing over and over again. In a game with character- and deck-building elements like PACG, I'm talking specifically about playing the same card repeatedly.

In the short term, this can seem great. You get to use your cool, powerful effect every time, and you're mostly flying through the scenario. Over time, though, it's usually bad for the game. You start to view every challenge as a spike to hit with your sledgehammer. You mostly stop caring about new cards that you see, because they're not your sledgehammer (rarely, you find a better sledgehammer, but that's not enough for a bunch of reasons). You stop making decisions because the answer is always "sledgehammer." Sometimes, your sledgehammer takes you all the way to ultimate success, and sometimes it crashes down around you because you run into a sledgehammer-proof wall, but neither outcome is much fun. In general, the job of the game designer is to create challenges for the players to overcome and opportunities for their choices to matter. The sledgehammer is bad for both, so we try to make sure we don't make them. In other words, we try not to create situations where the players get a payoff for always using the same singular tool.

This comes up in the concept of recovery (no, I didn't forget). To make this a bit more concrete, let's talk about spells and spellcasters (if you've played a PACG alchemist, you should recognize everything I'm about to say). There are character builds that let you play a spell and then get it back. If you get it back "pretty soon," that's usually ok; you invest in a few different options, and you choose whichever one gives you the most fun and the best chance of overall success at any one point. Awesome. If you get it back "right away," that's less ok. If you get it back "immediately," that quite frequently leads to repetitive play. No bueno.

I'm sure that some of you have seen this before in PACG, the Pathfinder RPG, or other games. At first, it seems neat and exciting, but most of the time it becomes boring quickly. Sometimes it leads to an arms race, or a table agreement to soft-ban certain combos, or an update that rebalances relative options. For our cooperative game with physical cards, we spend most of our preventative effort avoiding the problem up-front, and occasionally errata things later (I'm looking at you, RotR Restoration spell!). In this case, recovery provides us with a useful general tool to avoid "playing the same spell/potion in every encounter." By moving the opportunity to get the card back to the end of the round, we avoid a whole swath of bad-gameplay options.

This impacts some pre-Core characters, in that there were ways to build them such that they could potentially play the same spell over and over again within a turn. In general, that ability is removed by the Core rules, which does sometimes hurt the raw effectiveness of those characters. Most of those characters are still playable, and we believe they'll be more fun in the world with recovery. Witches and alchemists need some extra help, though.

For witches, recovery interacted badly with temporarily taking their familiars out of play. We were able to use proficiencies and markers to solve the concern. Alchemists are a bit more complicated, as they each have specific wording that resists the creation of general guidelines. During testing, people had little trouble "doing the right thing"—it was just the particular wording that got tricky. While we were adjusting these powers, we noticed that sometimes the former wording had impacts beyond what was appropriate—the powers were turning out too broad, getting things that didn't fit or feel right for the characters. Since we needed to add specific wording for each character anyway, we took the opportunity to clean up some of these concerns. Bottom line, these adjusted alchemist characters aren't always exact mechanical equivalents to their former selves, but we feel that they're a better fit for the character concepts, and the changes result in better gameplay. If we happened to shut down your favorite alchemist "combo" exploit (*cough* Hi, Liz! *cough*), I'm sorry, and you're welcome.

It's possible that we'll need to make further small adjustments to other characters to account for recovery, but we feel that most are fine. With that in mind, if you find another character that you feel is severely impacted, please bring it to our attention, and we'll take a look. Thanks in advance!

Proficiency

The next big change I want to talk about is an expansion of the concept of proficiency. Proficiencies have been with us since the beginning, where we had just three: Light Armors, Heavy Armors, and Weapons. We picked this set to model the proficiencies of Pathfinder, but with the upcoming changes to proficiencies in the new edition of the RPG, we decided to broaden the concept. Moving forward, there are more proficiencies in the game, and they have an expanded role. Characters can be proficient with card types and with traits. This lets us make characters that are proficient with Alchemical things (including Alchemical items and armors, but not ALL items or armors). Or Arcane things (including spells and wands), or spells (getting both Arcane and Divine spells, but not wands or staves).

Better if you know how to take full advantage.

On the other end of this change is an expansion of what it means to be proficient. We still can add special effects to cards for proficient wielders, and you're sure to see that going forward. We've also generalized a concept from existing spellcasters and Alchemists that proficiency is what lets you keep a card that would otherwise be banished, like a spell or a potion. This expansion of the concept of proficiency is a better match for the new Pathfinder RPG, and it's incredibly flavorful. For example, bards can have proficiency in Instrument (we approximated this before, but it's cleaner now). Varian can have proficiency in Sword, Drunken Master Sajan can have proficiency in Liquid, and Yoon can be proficient with Fire. The Conversion Guide adds new proficiencies to two dozen characters.

Light Armors

One of the changes to proficiencies we made was to consolidate armor proficiency down from Light and Heavy Armors into just Armor. At the same time, we rebalanced armor boons so that they're more useful for all characters, with extra perks kicking in for characters that are proficient. In a sense, you can imagine that there are now two levels of proficiency with armor rather than three. We think this will result in a better balance for this not-exactly-beloved card type, and in testing, the new approach to armor and proficiency was almost universally liked, so we're optimistic that you'll like it also.

This change created one of the most significant conversion issues for pre-Core characters: what to do about characters with armor power feats. In general, our approach for conversion is to make a few general changes, because nobody loves huge lists of card changes—at least, I don't. We looked at several options, and here's where we came down:

Characters and roles that have a feat for Light Armor proficiency should be given an additional hand size feat instead.

This is probably the fuzziest change we've introduced via conversion, and it might result in a few odd character builds. We settled on this approach because it gives us a general adaptation, and it's a generally useful feat. The change to gaining role cards one adventure earlier means that characters have fewer power feats that they're "forced" to take on their character cards, so if you really dislike hand size feats, you should just take a power feat on your role card—something that you probably wanted anyway.

Closed Locations

Another big rules change has to do with closed locations. In Core and Curse, locations lost their back "closed" state and gained a rule that cleans them up as you go, pushing characters to move and encouraging interaction in the game in general. In the Core Set rulebook's Transition Guide, we tell you to just ignore effects involving interaction with closed locations. This solution proved to be controversial, I think for a few reasons. We're introducing a different way to handle these that I think will help address some of the concerns, and I'll try to talk about some of the others after. The idea is simple: use the pre-Core rules with pre-Core locations and use the new rules with new locations. More precisely:

When you would put a location card back into the vault, flip it over. If it does not have a Pathfinder Adventure Card Game logo on the back, it stays in play and local characters do not automatically move. Closed locations are automatically guarded.

This change supersedes the page 26 rule for these locations, and we think it will prove to be less disruptive for older Adventure Paths, especially those from organized play. (If you play a homebrew scenario with a mix of old and new locations, we recommend banishing the new locations and flipping the old locations.)

One common bit of feedback that we've heard about the new rule for closed locations is that established players don't understand why we changed it. In other words, "it's not broke; why did you fix it?" This is a pretty broad question, so my response will also be broad, but I hope it will help nonetheless. My answer is threefold:

  1. It was slightly broken.
  2. Rarely, it was confusingly broken.
  3. It makes a lot of small things a little simpler and a little better.

For the first point, it mostly comes down to "You could learn to accept it, but it was often confusing to people learning the game." The second point has to do with a small set of tricky corner cases. Behind the curtain, we use bug-tracking software to deal with issues, errata, etc., and I've been told that the change to banish closed locations immediately closed a shocking number of them. While it may not be obvious, this is good for everyone simply because it lets people spend more time focusing on things more likely to create more fun. The third issue is sometimes part of the other two, and sometimes all its own concern—moving forward, being able to say just "location" rather than "open location" seems like a small change, but when wording around it gets complicated, it still helps. (The move from "temporarily closed" to "guarded" is another such improvement.)

In addition to more straightforward wording, the change has the effect of grouping people together more as the game moves toward conclusion. While older scenarios made use of the former approach, this new approach gives us better tools for managing the tension in the game, creating more dramatic effects, some of which comes from increased challenge. At the same time, it increases the impact of player choices during the game—the decisions about which locations to close and when become more important.

...And the Rest

While most of the changes in the Conversion Guide relate directly to recovery, proficiency, and closed locations, there are a few things related to smaller changes, like the one character who cares about cards that don't have adventure deck numbers, and the one monster that cares about the Basic and Elite trait. There really aren't many of those, though.

Now go ahead and check out the Conversion Guide! It's entirely possible (read: likely) that there are obscure corner cases that we haven't yet found; when we (or you) find them, we'll update the guide, and maybe even write another blog post on the topic. For now, we're all very excited to have you all get a chance to play with the Core Set and Curse of the Crimson Throne. Thanks!

Chad Brown
Adventure Card Game Lead Developer

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Tags: Pathfinder Adventure Card Game
Shadow Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Cards, Class Deck, Companion, Maps, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber

I don't see a link to a downloadable PDF. I can't guarantee internet access at the locations where we run PACS games, so I really need a printable version I can have with me at the table.

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

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Like our FAQs, this is a living document. There's not a lot of extraneous info on that page, though, so printing it (or if you really don't want the standard paizo.com header, copying the relevant text into a doc that you print) should produce usable results.


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Pathfinder Card Game, Class Deck Subscriber

Each of the blog posts in the Core Principles series has been interesting and informative, this one especially so.

JohnF wrote:
...I really need a printable version I can have with me at the table.

Until/unless Paizo/Lone Shark provide a handy downloadable version, you should be able to [copy and paste and] print the online version for a hard copy.

+EDIT+

D'oh! Vic in like a ninja.

Lone Shark Games

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JohnF wrote:

I don't see a link to a downloadable PDF. I can't guarantee internet access at the locations where we run PACS games, so I really need a printable version I can have with me at the table.

My hope is that people can read this blog post to understand the idea behind the changes (including motivations, if that interests you), and then use the FAQ for the detailed card-by-card material. With that in mind, I think you won't need a reference copy of this post.

If that turns out to be wrong, please do let me/us know; it probably suggests something that we should add to the FAQ.

Thanks!


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Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

First, I'd like to say that the Conversion rules do an awesome, amazing job at bridging the gap between pre-Core and post-Core characters and boons. There's still going to be gray areas and oddities, but for the most part it deals with some of the biggest, most character-breaking issues effectively.

I'd love to see a stickied thread under Rules Questions & Gameplay Discussion where feedback to the Conversion Guide collaborated and discussed (rather than in these blog comments, though I recognize it serves a similar purpose), because I think there's still going to have to be more added.

Some initial thoughts of my own...

Ekkie & Light Armor:
Wrath of the Righteous' promo Goblin, Ekkie, can take Light Armor proficiency as a feat, but isn't mentioned in the list below "On the following characters and roles, replace the Light Armor proficiency feat with an additional hand size feat."

Does she not get a replacement Hand Size Feat? I admit, it's an odd choice for her, since she's designed to sort of have an 'infinite' hand size already.


Haste and Web misprint/confusion:
Conversion Guide wrote:
If the action to play is “Discard” but is not rechargeable: Change its cost to “Banish”, and if necessary add “DURING RECOVERY If proficient, (do whatever it says to) discard this card.” These spells include: Haste and Web.

Both Haste and Web, in all of the Class Decks I own featuring them, do have checks to recharge. It's possible that the earliest (RotR?) printings lacked recharge text, but I'm confident that all - or nearly all - other printings of them have had recharge checks, which suggest to me that it was an error in the first place for them to lack it (and/or official errata that they now could be recharged), so I'm not sure why they're listed here.

Auto-Passing Combat checks?:
I expected to see this errata finally formalized here, preventing various boons from auto-passing checks. Right now, the various older cards that let players automatically pass Acrobatics and Stealth checks (such as Boots of Elvenkind and Cloak of Elvenkind) are TREMENDOUSLY powerful in OP and home games with the Core Set, as using those skills in combat is now standard.

Will we be getting that in a different FAQ?


Dream Voyage:
I don't think this card was that powerful in the first place, and this gave it an undeserved nerf (in my opinion). If a power tells you to end your turn (as per the Core Rulebook, Page 6) then you cannot use any cards or powers for the rest of the turn - you just instantly Recover, Reset and pass to the next player. This can greatly restrict various character powers, supportive boons and other strategies with a card that was already corner-case (compare to Seek Quarry).

Why not just replace "then end your explore step" with "you may not explore again this turn"? That template already exists in the same Character Deck, on Burst of Adrenaline.

Additionally, this doesn't really answer a question that a lot of players have had about Dream Voyage. It only has the Magic and Arcane traits, but it can be 'recharged' (or at least not banished) if you have the Arcane or the Divine skill. Is it supposed to be Arcane-only and the last line was an error, or is it supposed to be both and the traits are in error?


Codex of Conversations?:
Does the 'psuedo-recharge check' that Codex of Conversations appends onto played Diplomacy allies occur during recovery or immediately? It seems the intent would be during Recovery, but as-written no mention is made of that particularly unusual corner-case boon, and it's not captured under the current wording because the ally is not the card you're technically making the check against - it's the item.

(Actually, I'm not sure whether you're making a check against the ally, the item, or both for that power, and whether it counts as a 'check to acquire' or not. I've been given conflicting rulings by some of the most veteran PACG players on that blasted item, and what traits the check against it are invoking...)


Recovery Rules and Urgraz's Tyrant Role:
Urgraz's Tyrant Role allows him to draw cards that other players at his location banish for its effect. I have numerous questions.

Can this grab a card when it's heading into Recovery? (E.G. Any spell.)
Can this grab a card that's banished FROM the Recovery Pile and/or during Recovery? (E.G. Failing a recharge check on an alchemical item.)
Does he pull another character's banished card into his own Recovery Pile, then draw it at end-of-turn?
Can he only grab a card that wasn't heading to Recovery and wasn't being banished from recovery?

(As a side-opinion, Tyrant Urgraz is one of the most exploitable characters in the game, who can trivially buy a team near-infinite turns by handing off a "banish to restore the hourglass of X blessings" card, letting someone banish it, then redrawing it into his hand and doing the same thing every turn. This is particularly notable because he has a card in his own Class Deck which, once Redeemed, can be banished to restore Xd4 blessings into the hourglass, where X is the number of characters in the party.)

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

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So, awesome community folks, who wants to be in charge of making updated character sheets for all these characters? *Touches nose*


Pathfinder Card Game, Class Deck Subscriber
cartmanbeck wrote:
So, awesome community folks, who wants to be in charge of making updated character sheets for all these characters? *Touches nose*

By sheer coincidence, I just finished creating my character sheet template yesterday. It's not exactly like the official one - the fonts are different and the colors of the decorative doohickeys (the portrait frame and the flourish beneath the PACG logo) are standardized to the green used for the portrait frames on the Core Set character sheets - but it's serviceable.

There are a few characters that don't have images usable under the Community Use policy, though (Simoun and Ahmotep come to mind, possibly others). It would be great for images of all published characters, including the new iconics, to be released via the CUP.

Do Paizo/Lone Shark plan to released updated versions of the legacy character sheets to conform to the Core Set conversions?

+EDIT+

And I hope you realize, Tyler, that you've successfully distracted me from my own shiny object chasing (creating a Harrower and a character to represent my avatar in order to test out my character sheet template) by throwing this shiny object out there.


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Paizo Blog, emphasis added wrote:
...usually required one to review the FAQ/errata with a hawk-sharp eye.

Nice. I see what you did there.


Great blog and explanation what was behind the changes, Chad. I fully support and applaud the Recovery conversion rules - e.g. S&S Damiel and his Potions of Healing were broken :) - and expansion of the Proficiency. I am not sold on the Light Armor proficiency, but it might be OK.
What about old Armors that have powers "Banish to reduce damage to 0. If proficient, you may bury intead"? Shouldn't it mean this power is still in effect, but useable only by characters with Heavy Armor proficiency? The conversion page says that all the characters are considered proficient with Light Armor, but that increases such cards' power for that characters quite significantly.

S&S Damiel has now proficiency in Spells and changed recovery powers, which is nice, but what if he plays e.g. Force Missile (Arcane Attack)? Under old rules, he was supposed to banish it; now, he has the option to just discard it? It is a spell, so he is proficient, and would at most discard it. He can't recover it easily (check with Arcane = 1d4; not Craft as it is Attack spell), but that option is there. Is that truly the intent of this change, to allow him to play Attack spells and not lose them? I would guess that proficiency with "Non-Attack Spells" is now allowed rules-wise and it would be in line with his previous powers.

And once again with S&S - Letter of Marquee (loot), which works only on closed locations, is not covered in the Conversion FAQ. Should it work similarly to Safe Haven (e.g. choose a location, shuffle n boons of that type in; encountering Monster does not make sense for the LoM)? It would be sad to have Loot that is an item with no powers.


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Really nice job on the conversion guide. Thanks to everyone involved and their hard work.

Yewstance wrote:
I'd love to see a stickied thread under Rules Questions & Gameplay Discussion where feedback to the Conversion Guide collaborated and discussed (rather than in these blog comments, though I recognize it serves a similar purpose), because I think there's still going to have to be more added.

+1


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cartmanbeck wrote:
So, awesome community folks, who wants to be in charge of making updated character sheets for all these characters? *Touches nose*

I was going to ask what folks would prefer as far as my character tents and any future online projects go.


It looks like a lot of work went into this, and it's much appreciated! I really like that Witch cohorts stay in play now and just get marked when using their powers. This has the nice added bonus of not taking up a hand slot when resetting her hand at the end of the turn.

Lone Shark Games

Yewstance wrote:
<makes a list>
Jenseclav wrote:
<makes a list>

Thanks for this. I'll look and we'll have adjustments as needed.


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Pathfinder Card Game, Class Deck Subscriber

It would be neat if old locations could have traits assigned to them. Its only really going to matter if you're playing a new character in an old adventure path. And while that might be rare, I've already done it for one scenario. :)


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Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
Jenceslav wrote:


What about old Armors that have powers "Banish to reduce damage to 0. If proficient, you may bury intead"? Shouldn't it mean this power is still in effect, but useable only by characters with Heavy Armor proficiency? The conversion page says that all the characters are considered proficient with Light Armor, but that increases such cards' power for that characters quite significantly.

Pretty sure that’s the intention. Old armors were kinda weak and useless and kind of a boring thing to deal with on characters without armor. I think the intention was to give them a blanket buff across the board. It increases the lower bound of usefulness of cards without actually disrupting balance too much. I can’t think of any examples of armors that got a HUGE increase in power going from no proficiency to light proficiency, just minor stuff like going from Banish to Bury, as you mentioned already.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

I like that old armors have effectively buffed, but should characters who explicitly don't use them, like Monks, have some sort of "anti proficiency"? Like, perhaps they always bury armors.

I can even see this applied to other characters and card types. Something like an inverse of the favored card type. Certain druids always banish human allies. Kyra hates bludgeoning weapons. Ezren can't use divine cards. Etc.

Maybe this is something to be expanded upon in home brew games.


Create Spiked Pit: Change the last two powers to “When you encounter a monster whose highest difficulty to defeat is 20 or lower, banish to evade it; you may instead bury this card, or banish it if not proficient, to recharge the monster into its location deck...”

Should just be "location". "Location deck" doesn't have a meaning post-Core.


Pathfinder Card Game, Class Deck Subscriber

I would like to see those errated cards as an print on demand aka drive through cards in one day. Not yet, because the list is moving target for some months, but at the end of this year, it should be good enough? At least those special cases. Less cards you have to really remember, instead of few general changes.


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Surprised you didn't make Mogmurch (from Goblins Burn) proficient with fire. (Or fire spells, I suppose.)

I guess it is a bit of a change, but it also seems to be what he really wanted to be in the first place. (And it feels very strange that he is proficient with arcane only sometimes.)


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
eddiephlash wrote:

I like that old armors have effectively buffed, but should characters who explicitly don't use them, like Monks, have some sort of "anti proficiency"? Like, perhaps they always bury armors.

I can even see this applied to other characters and card types. Something like an inverse of the favored card type. Certain druids always banish human allies. Kyra hates bludgeoning weapons. Ezren can't use divine cards. Etc.

Maybe this is something to be expanded upon in home brew games.

Seems like an easy ability to handle. “When you play a(n) X, if it has any During Recovery text, that text becomes ‘Banish this card.’”.

This does weaken some cards that don’t normally get banished. An alternative is just a power that says “You are never considered proficient with X, even if you otherwise would be.” But this one basically won’t affect much post-core, because armors now assume a basic level of proficiency and don’t actually HAVE a negative effect for non-proficient characters (unless it’s heavy armor).

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

We've updated the Guide to address a few of these (Ekkie, Haste/Web, Dream Voyage, Letter of Marque).

See the new Conversion Guide thread for details on those.

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

This is not the place to address auto-passing combat checks.

Light armors with "if proficient" powers are working well enough, we think.

We think S&S Damiel is working okay too.

We're discussing many of the others.

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

Brother Tyler wrote:
There are a few characters that don't have images usable under the Community Use policy, though (Simoun and Ahmotep come to mind, possibly others). It would be great for images of all published characters, including the new iconics, to be released via the CUP.

This is on our to-do list.

Brother Tyler wrote:
Do Paizo/Lone Shark plan to released updated versions of the legacy character sheets to conform to the Core Set conversions?

This is not.

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

zeroth_hour2 wrote:

Create Spiked Pit: Change the last two powers to “When you encounter a monster whose highest difficulty to defeat is 20 or lower, banish to evade it; you may instead bury this card, or banish it if not proficient, to recharge the monster into its location deck...”

Should just be "location". "Location deck" doesn't have a meaning post-Core.

Fixed. Thanks. (Didn't post in update thread as it's cosmetic.)


Is the list of Characters with who are gaining an additional hand size feat due to the fact that Light Armor is universal complete?

What about CD Estra? Was it an oversight? Was it intentional? Or the names listed there just examples?


If you have the Divine Skill, but not Divine proficiency, can you still recover divine only spells during recovery?

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

Slacker2010 wrote:

Is the list of Characters with who are gaining an additional hand size feat due to the fact that Light Armor is universal complete?

What about CD Estra? Was it an oversight? Was it intentional? Or the names listed there just examples?

The characters that gain a hand size feat are the ones that have Light Armor proficiency as a feat—meaning those who have a checkbox in front of it. Estra has it automatically, so she doesn't need a replacement option.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
Slacker2010 wrote:

What about CD Estra? Was it an oversight? Was it intentional? Or the names listed there just examples?

CD Estra already has the Light Armor proficiency innately. The list of characters is to clarify that characters who would normally have to spend a power feat to get it can instead spend a power feat on an extra hand size (since light armor proficiency is now pointless).

Characters who innately have Light Armor proficiency get no new advantage.

Slacker2010 wrote:
If you have the Divine Skill, but not Divine proficiency, can you still recover divine only spells during recovery?

To quote the Transition Guide...

Core Rulebook, Transition Guide wrote:
• Treat characters that have the Arcane or Divine skill as proficient with the corresponding trait, and treat characters that are proficient with Heavy Armors as proficient with armor. If a boon requires proficiency with Light Armors, all characters are considered proficient with it.

So, pre-Core, yes. For post-Core characters, no.

If you have the Divine/Arcane skill temporarily, I suppose you'd also gain the proficiency temporarily, at least for pre-Core characters. Don't know the full bounds of the intent on that - there's quite a few characters with 'conditional' Arcane/Divine skills.


Just curious, why did characters that previously had light armor proficiency not get a boon? I do realize that characters that had the option to feat it needed something else to spend a feat on. Was there just not time to address due to the number of light armor only characters?

Yewstance wrote:

To quote the Transition Guide...

Core Rulebook, Transition Guide wrote:
• Treat characters that have the Arcane or Divine skill as proficient with the corresponding trait, and treat characters that are proficient with Heavy Armors as proficient with armor. If a boon requires proficiency with Light Armors, all characters are considered proficient with it.

So, pre-Core, yes. For post-Core characters, no.

If you have the Divine/Arcane skill temporarily, I suppose you'd also gain the proficiency temporarily, at least for pre-Core characters. Don't know the full bounds of the intent on that - there's quite a few characters with 'conditional' Arcane/Divine skills.

I was specifically thinking of the witch familiar that gives the divine skill, but im sure there are more examples.

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

Added Urgraz's Tyrant role to Conversion Guide.

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

Added Codex of Conversations to the recovery items list.

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