Forging the Heroes of Undarin

Is this a typo

Hi, so I am curious as when to expect the new Shrieking Peak adventure with updated resonance rules? When it was announced it sounded to me like it would be out very soon.

I am not sure how I feel about this. I definitely feel it is in the direction that I want. I like the heritage addition overall. I think some of the options here are very evocative and interesting, coming from PF1 I still feel ancestries are too thin on mechanics/power level, but that is across the board in the game. I still am not sold on ancestry feats, some of the options presented are great, but I am not sold the concept that everyone one of my characters must continue to embrace their ancestry as they progress.

I am a big fan of Half-elves since the first Dragon magazine I picked up as a kid with a bunch of Half-elf kits and a big article about them. Something about seeing them downgraded as an option doesn't sit right, although mechanically I see why you are doing it. I am also a little saddened that multitalented (as late as you get it) isn't Half-elf only as I feel that that being the best at multiclassing is an important part of their identity.

This sounds dour, and I don't mean it to be, the game plays like pathfinder, just doesn't feel like pathfinder (in some ways), but every update feels like you are analyzing what we are saying and moving in the right direction. thanks.

So, Dwarves just got the ability to get hilariously beefy, awesome.

Is this a typo

** spoiler omitted **
Because the penalty is already there for a 2nd attack and it gets worse for not being an agile weapon.
Worst case is
1st Action +X,-7
2nd Action -12,-19
3rd Action -24,-31

That's not how either of those penalties work. There is no indication that the -2 sticks around, and the multiple attack penalty does not increase past your third attack. So the actual modifiers would be

so half-elf loses out on the speed aspect that old half-elf had?

I much prefer these ancestry rules, but I wish Unburdened was a ancestry feat and not a heritage. It just makes sense.

Goblin Scuttle is level 9, but Skittering Scuttle is also level 9 and requires Goblin Scuttle as a pre-req. Can't help but feel one of those numbers are off.

so half-elf loses out on the speed aspect that old half-elf had?

But can choose to take the nimble elf feat at lvl one. So... kind of back to square one but with more options overall.

I will repeat my elsewhere-stated lament about the misuse of the term "forensics." Ah well, another thing we can add to the list to blame on CSI.

Goblin Song being a feat is both hilarious and terrifying.

PLEASE start separating the Doomsday Dawn updates from the general errata. I should be able to just hand the errata file to my players, and instead I have to go in and manually chop it up in Adobe.

I suspect Gobling scuttle should be level 1. NPC goblins do it at level 0.

Please tell me some of those Heritage Names are placeholders: Unburdened Dwarf, Keen-Eared Elf, Sharp-Nosed Gnome, Gutsy Halfling, Nomadic Halfling, Skilled Heritage, Versatile Heritage don't really sound right.

I've got some mix reactions. This is a good step in the right direction for the most part. But some of the implementation feels a bit off. There are a few things that are now lost as options. The half-elf not getting the speed boost for example, or Eat Anything being lost to goblins who don't take the bigbelly heritage. So I'll need to redo my goblin barbarian who has Flame Heart and Eat Anything. And some of these heritages seem really weird and arbitrary, not like proper sub-ancestries. And I'm not sure some of these options really should be exclusive.

I think someone might have gotten mixed up, Inflammable Goblin heritage makes it so you aren't inflammable. Remember, inflammable means the exact same thing as flammable, not non-flammable. Although I suppose that could be a reference to definition #2 "easily aroused or excited, as to passion or anger; irascible." But that doesn't really fit the mechanical effects.

There is a weird incentive now that most Gnomes are now likely to be Svirfneblin or Bleachlings instead of more "standard" Gnomes. Looks like Sharp-Nosed Gnome is kind of the 'normal' Gnome now, with the other three being exotic sub-variants, but are all more attractive.

Humans got a bit more powerful. The Skilled Heritage apparently stacks with the Skilled ancestry feat for a powerful skill-monkey build. Likewise Versitile Heritage and the General Training ancestry feat. A human can start with 2 general feats at first level, while everyone else has to wait for 3rd to get one. I'm not saying this is a bad thing, just something to note.

I don't mean to be negative, this is a positive change overall. It's just there are some kinks and weirdness to be worked out. And the odd heritages are most likely due to the existing feats and would hopefully change for the final book to something that is more logically a Heritage.

Is "Multitalented" supposed to be a *human* feat or a *half-elf* specific feat? It feels like there is a tag missing there since "good at multiclassing" was always a half-elf thing, less so a "standard human" thing.

This is a good direction, but I feel it doesn't go far enough.

Also weird that Goblin Scuttle is a 9th level feat despite the fact that low level goblin monsters in the bestiary have this ability.

I have to say, I'm not at all pleased by locking down some of the choices behind specific ancestries like this. Before, my Dwarf barbarian was innately unburdened, and I could choose Hardy and Ancient's Blood as options if I wanted them (Hardy was my L1 feat pick; and before these rules dropped, Ancient's Blood was the ancestry feat I'd chosen as I leveled in prep for chapter 4.)

While I'm happy with Unburdened being dropped as innate, since it benefits characters that don't need it, which is a good thing, I think a better choice would have been to make Unburdened into an ancestry feat, and just let people pick two -- greater flexibility, very little impact on existing characters, and no annoying 'Pick X, but then you can NEVER have Y, no matter how much you want it.'

An alternative idea would be to follow the example of the Druid class features: A druid can take an ability of any specialization, but they get a small bonus for taking one within their chosen one instead of being penalized for making one decision (you've got an animal companion! No wildshape for you). So maybe a Strongheart Dwarf gets Hardy automatically, but gets a small bonus for it. They can then still unburdened or hardy normally, but don't get any extras.

PLEASE start separating the Doomsday Dawn updates from the general errata. I should be able to just hand the errata file to my players, and instead I have to go in and manually chop it up in Adobe.

Also any chance we can get a Document with just the newest stuff? Its becoming increasingly more difficult to sift through the non SUPER BOLD NEW RULES AREA and find whats new because its all just kinda shunted in there together.

Chess Pwn wrote:

so half-elf loses out on the speed aspect that old half-elf had?

But can choose to take the nimble elf feat at lvl one. So... kind of back to square one but with more options overall.

But previously you could take that at a higher level and get a speed of 35, 40 with Fleet. Now those numbers are limited to 30, 35. That's likely a better balance though. Before half-elves could be just as fast as normal elves and take human feats too. Now they're potentially faster than everyone else, except still slower than a similarly speed focused elf. Makes it more of a trade-off. Elves and Half-Elves are already pretty powerful ancestries.

Chess Pwn wrote:

so half-elf loses out on the speed aspect that old half-elf had?

But can choose to take the nimble elf feat at lvl one. So... kind of back to square one but with more options overall.

but before you could get the movespeed from picking half elf and still pick up nimble elf feat at lv5 with fleet at lv3 meant base speed of 40 or 30 in armor. Now we're 5ft short of that. Just a little sad to miss out on that speed in heavy.

Bardarok wrote:

Chess Pwn wrote:

so half-elf loses out on the speed aspect that old half-elf had?

But can choose to take the nimble elf feat at lvl one. So... kind of back to square one but with more options overall.

But previously you could take that at a higher level and get a speed of 35, 40 with Fleet. Now those numbers are limited to 30, 35. That's likely a better balance though. Before half-elves could be just as fast as normal elves and take human feats too. Now they're potentially faster than everyone else, except still slower than a similarly speed focused elf. Makes it more of a trade-off. Elves and Half-Elves are already pretty powerful ancestries.

I would really like to see it as 40 for half elves and 45 for elves though as currently half elves can never get the new level 9 Elf Step feat, which seems kinda off point if their benefit is supposed to be they can pick stuff from both pools.

Either that or just lower the requirement to 35 on Elf Step.

From the perspective of a blind player, it is very difficult to use this updates document in conjunction with the rulebook now that there is so much stuff in it. Honestly I don't know how easy this would be, but it would make my life so much easier if at least the screenreader PDF rulebook could be updated with all of the changes. I understand if this is not feasible.

My download area says the update file is currently not available. What is going on?

I want to see what use I can make of the new Human Versatility feat.

Is "Multitalented" supposed to be a *human* feat or a *half-elf* specific feat? It feels like there is a tag missing there since "good at multiclassing" was always a half-elf thing, less so a "standard human" thing.

It is definitely a human feat.

A weird thing I noticed in this update is that it has absolutely no new Half-Elf ancestry feats.

Doktor Weasel wrote:

Bardarok wrote:

Chess Pwn wrote:

so half-elf loses out on the speed aspect that old half-elf had?

But can choose to take the nimble elf feat at lvl one. So... kind of back to square one but with more options overall.

But previously you could take that at a higher level and get a speed of 35, 40 with Fleet. Now those numbers are limited to 30, 35. That's likely a better balance though. Before half-elves could be just as fast as normal elves and take human feats too. Now they're potentially faster than everyone else, except still slower than a similarly speed focused elf. Makes it more of a trade-off. Elves and Half-Elves are already pretty powerful ancestries.

I would really like to see it as 40 for half elves and 45 for elves though as currently half elves can never get the new level 9 Elf Step feat, which seems kinda off point if their benefit is supposed to be they can pick stuff from both pools.

Either that or just lower the requirement to 35 on Elf Step.

Good catch. It is still accessible to Monks, but yeah, it's cut off otherwise. I'm undecided on whether that's a good or bad thing.

I'm also confused by the continued use of the term Ancestry. Since Dwarves, Elves, Gnomes, Goblins, Halflings and Humas are all biologically completely different races it would make more sense to me that they revert to being called Races, with the subcategories either being called Heritages or Ancestries.

For the most part, names aside, I like this very much. Seems to solve most of my problems with Ancestry entirely. I still think Ancient Blood is a bit overly punitive, though I suppose that depends partially on how they change Resonance...

so half-elf loses out on the speed aspect that old half-elf had?

Given that it's now cheaper and easier, something had to give. That being what went is fine with me. As others note, if you care you can grab the Elf Feat for that.

Goblin Scuttle is level 9, but Skittering Scuttle is also level 9 and requires Goblin Scuttle as a pre-req. Can't help but feel one of those numbers are off.

I also noticed this. I'm betting Goblin Scuttle is supposed to be level 1, but an official reply would be nice.

Please tell me some of those Heritage Names are placeholders: Unburdened Dwarf, Keen-Eared Elf, Sharp-Nosed Gnome, Gutsy Halfling, Nomadic Halfling, Skilled Heritage, Versatile Heritage don't really sound right.

The names are not great. I agree that those need to be changed post-haste. I mean, some are okay...but many others are definitively not.

Is "Multitalented" supposed to be a *human* feat or a *half-elf* specific feat? It feels like there is a tag missing there since "good at multiclassing" was always a half-elf thing, less so a "standard human" thing.

I personally like that it applies to all humans.

Another thing I'd be fine with is just a half elf ancestry feat that gives five move speed as well if they want it to be more of an investment.

I'd just really like to be able to reasonable make use of the ancestry feats that I'm trading out resources to get access to, and no I don't think it being effectively class locked is reasonable for racial feats :/

(At least not in the core book, I would be pretty happy to see stuff like the Ifrit DC bonus in elemental fire bloodline make a return later on but that's not something I really wanna see in core.)

PossibleCabbage wrote:

Is "Multitalented" supposed to be a *human* feat or a *half-elf* specific feat? It feels like there is a tag missing there since "good at multiclassing" was always a half-elf thing, less so a "standard human" thing.

It is definitely a human feat.

A weird thing I noticed in this update is that it has absolutely no new Half-Elf ancestry feats.

That's probably intentional. Half-Elves get access to Human and Elf feats, so they got six new feats (more like five, since one of them is difficult to access). The most any other option got was five (Goblin and Half-Orc).

+1 for unburden to remain a heritage feature.

I also am displeased that "standard gnomes" get "discerning smell" which is pretty weak.

Souphin wrote:

Is this a typo

** spoiler omitted **
Because the penalty is already there for a 2nd attack and it gets worse for not being an agile weapon.
Worst case is
1st Action +X,-7
2nd Action -12,-19
3rd Action -24,-31

That's not how either of those penalties work. There is no indication that the -2 sticks around, and the multiple attack penalty does not increase past your third attack. So the actual modifiers would be

1st Action +X, -7
2nd Action-10, -12
3rd Action -10, -12

The feat specifies you can only use Twin Takedown once per round, and it can only be used against your Hunted Target so you're already applying a reduction in multiple attack penalties.

For Twin Takedown with an agile weapon, it's +0, -3. Otherwise, it's +0,-6. Any further attacks you make that round either take a -6 penalty if Agile or a -8 penalty otherwise.

I also look at ancestries from the perspective of both a GM and a 3pp designer. I want an ancestry system with enough design space that will allow me to create fun ancestries for my campaigns or products. Or look forward to new products from Paizo. However, if ancestries are too restrictive, then it will stifle creativity and become difficult for new ancestries to feel distinct and creative enough from the existing ones. If core ancestries have too bland or weak of abilities, it becomes difficult to create new ancestries with new interesting abilities without them being too powerful compared to the core options.

Looking at the Half-Orc. Before, I chose it and picked the low-light vision and orc toughness. Now it appears I'll be losing the orc toughness part but have no way to gain that back. However, I do get an additional feat that I would have otherwise not had - so its a bit better in the regards to getting more things.

There is an Orc Ancestry feat though that grants low-light vision (Orc Sight), so that is a bit redundant for the Half-Orc now. Though it does provide dark vision if you already have low light.

I like the changes in choice and picking some more speciality to the characters.

I am not sure how I feel about the heavy focus on variant/sub-races. Looking at Elf for example you really only have one option if you want to be a "normal" elf.

I feel human is perfect, that choice of a half-X or skills or feats.

PLEASE start separating the Doomsday Dawn updates from the general errata. I should be able to just hand the errata file to my players, and instead I have to go in and manually chop it up in Adobe.

This is a good point. Don't want to give them SPOILERS.

Also any chance we can get a Document with just the newest stuff? Its becoming increasingly more difficult to sift through the non SUPER BOLD NEW RULES AREA and find whats new because its all just kinda shunted in there together.

I like that it's comprehensive and I can discard the old one. Especially as the updates have errata'ed themselves.

From the perspective of a blind player, it is very difficult to use this updates document in conjunction with the rulebook now that there is so much stuff in it. Honestly I don't know how easy this would be, but it would make my life so much easier if at least the screenreader PDF rulebook could be updated with all of the changes. I understand if this is not feasible.

I know that Paizo is stretched thing with the playtest but this is something that the community would clearly be up for assisting with. Some folks have been patching the standard PDF in their free time and that would be far easier to do in the screenreader version.

I liked seeing the forensics use for Medicine. I’m meh on the rest. It’s a move in the right direction tho.

I notice the ancestries are still hilariously imbalanced. Gnomes can get Darkvision with a heritage, while halflings can get low light with a heritage, and that halfling heritage doesn't give anything else on top of the low light. Humans are even better than before and they were already the best ancestry. Etc

First Reactions:

I notice the ancestries are still hilariously imbalanced. Gnomes can get Darkvision with a heritage, while halflings can get low light with a heritage, and that halfling heritage doesn't give anything else on top of the low light.

This is because Gnomes already have Low Light Vision. Both Heritages upgrade the vision one category.

Elf Step has no limitations on uses in a round? If so, might as well just say that the elf's speed doubles. (Which being 80ft per action at minimum sounds ridiculously good, as I've already had most players wanting to play elf just due to higher movespeed.)

Elf Step grants two Step actions, not two Stride actions. So it's just ten feet of movement...but it's ten feet of movement that doesn't trigger reactions.

First Reactions:

Dislike Cavern Elf. I had a problem with how common Darkvision was among player races in PF1 and am not excited to see that return.

No Drow Heritage? I foresee some people being disappointed by this.

Reading between the lines "Cavern Elf" is Drow Heritage.

It's interesting that they didn't explicitly name "Cavern Elf" Drow, while calling Bleachling Gnomes by their name.

Definitely a step in the right direction. I wish the Heritages had a bit more meat to them though. Particularly with the Half-s, who both lost access to the more interesting ability (Elven speed and Orc ferocity). I do think it's interesting that a Versatile Human with Adopted Ancestry could take an Ancestry Feat from anything, if you wanted to do a make-shift Half-blood of anything other than Elf or Orc.

I'm kinda disappointed Half-Elves don't get any unique feats though, especially since they can't even use the Elf Step level 9 feat unless they're a Monk.

Speaking of level 9 feats though, I really like the level 9 feats. The 13s are pretty boring (even if Expertise is useful, it's still kinda bland) but the 9s are nice.

Also the various buffs in the other changes are nice. Ranger AC change is super good (makes their ACs better than a non-Animal Order Druids can even get even), the Bravery buff is great, and the changes to Natural Medicine and Battle Medic are much appreciated.

Charon Onozuka wrote:

Elf Step has no limitations on uses in a round? If so, might as well just say that the elf's speed doubles. (Which being 80ft per action at minimum sounds ridiculously good, as I've already had most players wanting to play elf just due to higher movespeed.)

Elf Step grants two Step actions, not two Stride actions. So it's just ten feet of movement...but it's ten feet of movement that doesn't trigger reactions.

A monk with that feat in tiger stance can step 10ft twice. Thats pretty sweet.

I mean, there's nothing in here that I don't generally think is a good change, but it does still feel a little too lite a touch if this were the way that ancestries are to change for the final version. Maybe some of my problems are that this is a more extendable system, and I won't get a good grasp on how valuable this change really is, until we see more of that extension. On the flip side, not seeing the full effects of it after a couple supplements or so make me worried that it's hard to gauge how well the new framework works until it's too late.

Edit: Also, goblin scuttle seems a bit too situational. With PCs, outside of "We Be Goblins" type scenarios, I'm not really sure how likely having two goblins in a party will be. Hell, we haven't even had one yet, and as a group we aren't really negative on Goblins as PCs, just sort of ambivalent.

For the most part, names aside, I like this very much. Seems to solve most of my problems with Ancestry entirely. I still think Ancient Blood is a bit overly punitive, though I suppose that depends partially on how they change Resonance...

Chess Pwn wrote:

so half-elf loses out on the speed aspect that old half-elf had?

Given that it's now cheaper and easier, something had to give. That being what went is fine with me. As others note, if you care you can grab the Elf Feat for that.

No I can't just grab the elf feat for that since I already had the elf feat. I'm wanting to go fast since movement is slow and now a big piece is missing that I can't make up. If there was a Half-elf racial to increase speed and stacking with the elf one THEN you can say I can just buy it back.

Fuzzypaws wrote:

I notice the ancestries are still hilariously imbalanced. Gnomes can get Darkvision with a heritage, while halflings can get low light with a heritage, and that halfling heritage doesn't give anything else on top of the low light.

This is because Gnomes already have Low Light Vision. Both Heritages upgrade the vision one category.

One category each, sure. Those categories aren't equal. Low-light barely even does anything under the current rules, while Darkvision is a 1000% or even 10000% upgrade from low light.

Deadmanwalking wrote:

For the most part, names aside, I like this very much. Seems to solve most of my problems with Ancestry entirely. I still think Ancient Blood is a bit overly punitive, though I suppose that depends partially on how they change Resonance...

Chess Pwn wrote:

so half-elf loses out on the speed aspect that old half-elf had?

Given that it's now cheaper and easier, something had to give. That being what went is fine with me. As others note, if you care you can grab the Elf Feat for that.

No I can't just grab the elf feat for that since I already had the elf feat. I'm wanting to go fast since movement is slow and now a big piece is missing that I can't make up. If there was a Half-elf racial to increase speed and stacking with the elf one THEN you can say I can just buy it back.

But as is I can't.

Yeah I'd very much like to see the 5 speed half elves had and the extra hp half orcs had come back in some form of level 1 feat for them.

Charon Onozuka wrote:

First Reactions:

Dislike Cavern Elf. I had a problem with how common Darkvision was among player races in PF1 and am not excited to see that return.

No Drow Heritage? I foresee some people being disappointed by this.

Reading between the lines "Cavern Elf" is Drow Heritage.

I could easily see Drow feats being printed to give them their classic levitate/faerie fire stuff with "Cavern Elf ancestry" as a prerequisite.

It's interesting that they didn't explicitly name "Cavern Elf" Drow, while calling Bleachling Gnomes by their name.

I'm glad for the middle ground Cavern Elf creates between a standard elf and Drow.