Sorcerer Class Preview

First of all...
Hi

I literally just made this account cause I feel the need to share my thoughts and mostly complain about why I don´t like this spontaneous heightening.

But first I´ll share my thoughts about what I do like which is basically everything else. I´m also not an english native so please excuse bad english or stupid mistakes concerning my writing. Feel free to point out any other mistakes I make.

1. Bloodlines and spell lists:
I like that the bloodline defines what spell list you have. I think it´s thematically appropriate and appreciate it. The demonic is fine i guess but I´m personally more interested in the draconic.

2. Spontaneous Spellcasting
I´m all for the same progression of spells. i thought it was really annoying in PF1 that it wasn´t and I gladly trade the more casting for it.

3. Sorcerer Features
Only 3 bloodline powers is a bit sad but I´m ok with it if they feel less generic. I´ll get to spontaneous heightening at the end of my post.

4. Sorcerer Feats
Overwhelming Spell was something I wished for in PF1 and I´m glad to have it in PF2. I would be interested if and how if at all it interacts with immunity.
Dangerous Sorcery is nice as an option but it really depends on how it interacts with multi hit and damage over time spells to determine how good it is (not that I´m the person to do that).
Blood Magic looks interesting. Only a question of how easy or difficult it is to get bleeding effect.
I like the evolution feats I only hope they are well balanced against each other.
Wellspring spell is interesting but it all depends on how strong the 10th level spells are. But just the thought of teleporting every minute sounds fun.

5. spontaneous heightening
I don´t like it (as if i didn´t say it already). I was expecting the ability to heighten every spell to whatever level I want. Naturally I´m disappointed it´s not like that but I can understand how it could be overpowered (but I´m not 100% convinced it is).
What bothers me the most is that you have to prepare it. I don´t like prepared casting which is why I want to play a sorcerer (in general). I feel that it doesn´t have much to do with spontanous casting and i think it fits a wizard much more than a sorcerer. I would like it either as a permanent choice or completly spontanous. For example every time you get a new spelllevel you can chose a spell from a lower level to be able to heighten it freely or X times a day (or using X spell points) you can heighten a spell you know.

For the record, Mark has clarified in another thread that the Divine Evolution allows you to Channel like a Cleric 1/day, much like how Primal gives you 1/day summon nature's ally

So now it's much more balanced, and not eyebrow raising.

Aww… I mean, I know that the full amount would be really strong, but… 1/day is just not very exciting for healing/harming.

That said, I was only interested in divine Sorcs because the evolution seemed so strong that it made up for playing the least interesting spell list. That's not a good role for a feat to play.

Vidmaster7 wrote:

Yeah a bite attack seems pretty demonic to me. I suppose claws would of also been acceptable.

Demonic seems like a gore attack to me. Give them a reason to have horns. ;)

A bite that give temporary hit points seem more appropriate for Daemons than demons.

For Demons something that give a "savage" kind of damage, with bleeding or impairment (stat damage or action penalty or negative modifiers for skills and attacks) seem more appropriate.
That can be changed during the development.

I think the thing i like most potentially is that a sorcerer with a celestial bloodline will get some divine action.

First of all...

Hi

I literally just made this account cause I feel the need to share my thoughts and mostly complain about why I don´t like this spontaneous heightening.

…

5. spontaneous heightening
I don´t like it (as if i didn´t say it already). I was expecting the ability to heighten every spell to whatever level I want. Naturally I´m disappointed it´s not like that but I can understand how it could be overpowered (but I´m not 100% convinced it is).
What bothers me the most is that you have to prepare it. I don´t like prepared casting which is why I want to play a sorcerer (in general). I feel that it doesn´t have much to do with spontanous casting and i think it fits a wizard much more than a sorcerer. I would like it either as a permanent choice or completly spontanous. For example every time you get a new spell level you can chose a spell from a lower level to be able to heighten it freely or X times a day (or using X spell points) you can heighten a spell you know.

Hi Tach1223, and welcome to the forum.

My thoughts on spontaneous heightening are that, while it is theoretically like a prepared spell in practice you will have your go-to spells for heightening. This is because the utility of many heightened spells overlap. (e.g Invisibility (1), which is pf1 vanish, will give invisibility (2) - pf1 invisibility and invisibility (4) - pf1 greater Invisibility. These all do essentially the same thing so you are better off just getting Invisibility (4)).
Since there is no point in getting heightened versions of these spells, it will reinforce the idea that these remain your permanent heightened spells, and the only time you would change it is in downtime when you need a higher level version of a known spell for crafting (e.g. you have invisibilty (1) and want to craft a property rune for invisibilty (4)) , or there is a skill boost spell you can apply to downtime activities.

It still retains the flavour of sorcerer spontaneity since (unlike a wizard) you don't actually use any slots for it unless you cast a spell, and you decide then what slot you use. This contrasts with the wizard who had to decide in the morning what slots he is allocating to that spell; if he gets the wrong slot he might waste the slot or only get a partial effect whereas the sorcerer can pick the right slot for the effect he needs, as often as he needs it (so long as he has slots left).

Oh, just some info on Wellspring Spell:
- It's metamagic, so the spell takes an extra action.
- We've seen the Druid version at the PaizoCon banquet, and theirs is limited to spells without a duration. (So, instantaneous spells.)

I wouldn't mind seeing the granted channels from Divine Evolution increase to "a number of times per day equal to your Charisma modifier", personally. That seems like enough to do the job, without completely eating the cleric's lunch.

(I say this before seeing the full playtest, of course, so there might be other options in there to expand the benefit to more useful levels.)

But first I´ll share my thoughts about what I do like which is basically everything else. I´m also not an english native so please excuse bad english or stupid mistakes concerning my writing. Feel free to point out any other mistakes I make.

...Dangerous Sorcery is nice as an option but it really depends on how it interacts with multi hit and damage over time spells to determine how good it is (not that I´m the person to do that).
Blood Magic looks interesting. Only a question of how easy or difficult it is to get bleeding effect.
I like the evolution feats I only hope they are well balanced against each other.
Wellspring spell is interesting but it all depends on how strong the 10th level spells are. But just the thought of teleporting every minute sounds fun.

5. spontaneous heightening
I don´t like it (as if i didn´t say it already). I was expecting the ability to heighten every spell to whatever level I want. Naturally I´m disappointed it´s not like that but I can understand how it could be overpowered (but I´m not 100% convinced it is).
What bothers me the most is that you have to prepare it. I don´t like prepared casting which is why I want to play a sorcerer (in general). I feel that it doesn´t have much to do with spontanous casting and i think it fits a wizard much more than a sorcerer. I would like it either as a permanent choice or completly spontanous. For example every time you get a new spelllevel you can chose a spell from a lower level to be able to heighten it freely or X times a day (or using X spell points) you can heighten a spell you know.

Hi Tach!

For your question about Dangerous Sorcery, the actual wording is vague at present but here's a quote about how multi-hit spells might work

Elleth wrote:

Is there any precedent for ruling it at "treat all simultaneous hits against the same creature as single damage source if from one spell, hits not against the same creature are multiple iterations of the damage"?

Thematically it's a bit wibbly but it seems like it should play closer to intended, and against resistances and weaknesses more like Double Slice.

That's essentially what I have mocked up in a file of possible clarifications.

While it's isn't unambiguously the only correct reading at present it seems, this may end up being the intended usage. For example, you fire a 1st level magic missile at two targets, hitting the first with two of the three missiles. This person takes an extra +1 damage because you treat both attacks as the same attack. The other person is only hit by one missile, but still takes the +1 damage because that one missile is its own attack. This means dangerous sorcery is probably especially clever when used to attack multiple people, while because you would be adding the two hits together for this rule to work you can punch past resistance if you gang hits up on the same target.

For damage over time we'll have to see the actual feat wording first.

Whether or not it's overpowered to allow free spontaneous heightening is contentious at present and we won't get a better feel until the playtest. I personally believe it probably is, as it means that compared to a cleric or wizard a sorc would have a staggeringly large number of options on tap if built in any sorc of optimal way. For example, let's look at a sorc with all 9 spell slots at 4 spells of each level with the hypothetical ability to heighten freely. For the first 8 spell levels let's assume 1/4 are heightenable to every level (rather than fussing with half of them heightening every two levels or something). We would get the following number of options at each spell level:
Level 1: 4 spells
Level 2: 5 spells
Level 3: 6 spells
Level 4: 7 spells
Level 5: 8 spells
Level 6: 9 spells
Level 7: 10 spells
Level 8: 11 spells
Level 9: 12 spells

If we assumed the sorc had managed to choose options that averaged out at two new options at every level past first we'd get the following set up instead:
Level 1: 4 spells
Level 2: 6 spells
Level 3: 8 spells
Level 4: 10 spells
Level 5: 12 spells
Level 6: 14 spells
Level 7: 16 spells
Level 8: 18 spells
Level 9: 20 spells

We don't yet know the exact number of spells that heighten, so it's hard to give a better estimate here. While the lower list might be overkill in all but the most edge cases, I wouldn't be surprised to see values somewhere between the two lists. In contrast, a wizard or cleric can be expected to have closer to 3-4 different spells available at their top level (5 for a cleric with channeling up). From what we know an abusively built universalist wizard might be able to outperform a sorc in lower level casting shenanigans, but a freely heightenable endgame sorcerer would seem to have a massive advantage in options over prepared casters.

While the thematics are slightly off with the "preparing" the spells for spontaneous heightening, I feel that's the sort of thing that might feel slightly different with a tiny bit of flavour text, like "Each day, a sorcerer can focus her mind on the tasks ahead, her magical blood granting supernatural control over two spells that will help her in the events yet to come."

I wouldn't mind seeing the granted channels from Divine Evolution increase to "a number of times per day equal to your Charisma modifier", personally. That seems like enough to do the job, without completely eating the cleric's lunch.

(I say this before seeing the full playtest, of course, so there might be other options in there to expand the benefit to more useful levels.)

Cleric does get one fewer spell per level compared to Sorcerer and Wizard, which seems to be entirely balanced against Channel Energy.

Tangent101 wrote:

Actually it might be interesting if Sorcerers had a choice as to what abilities they can choose for Bloodline Powers. I mean, what if that Sorcerer doesn't want to have a bite attack? Why not give them something else like one minute of Dark Vision by using a Spell Point?

You can choose a different bloodline is a basic rule for the sorcerer. Do you dislike the bite attack? Chose a bloodline that hasn't it. Making bloodlines modular remove the reason to have them.

I don't want a eidolon like sorcerer that chose a bit of this, a point of that from the shelves.

While I do agree that you can choose a different bloodline, I still find it sad that some bloodline will see less play than others because some powers are weaker and thus your spell points are going to stay unused.

That's why in a previous post I talked about wanting to see alternatives on how to use spell points, probably in feats, or in a very limited choose your power way (5 powers per bloodline, you must choose 3).

For example : I've seen people suggesting that Divine evolution should get a pool of CHA, well I think it would be better for it to use spell points. That way there is only one pool to track, no once per day, and players will think twice when having to choose between using a power or channeling. And the cleric will still have an advantage by having a pool of channeling usage equal to the divine sorcerer + domain powers and better armor proficiency and hit dice.

I wouldn't mind seeing the granted channels from Divine Evolution increase to "a number of times per day equal to your Charisma modifier", personally. That seems like enough to do the job, without completely eating the cleric's lunch.

Except that as a Sorcerer, your CHA is probably a good bit higher than the cleric's.

Kalindlara wrote:

I wouldn't mind seeing the granted channels from Divine Evolution increase to "a number of times per day equal to your Charisma modifier", personally. That seems like enough to do the job, without completely eating the cleric's lunch.

Except that as a Sorcerer, your CHA is probably a good bit higher than the cleric's.

Except that the cleric has a dedicated pool of 3+CHA of channeling + a pool of wisdom for domain powers.

In my proposition, The sorcerer would only get a shared pool of CHA shared between powers and channeling.

Yes the sorcerer would have higher CHA, but since the cleric has a 3 bonus usage of channeling, if the sorcerer only uses his pool of spell points to channel, he would get about the same number of uses as a cleric. (while sacrifying his power usage)

Evolution feats granting one fixed spell per day need to be compared to the Wizard feat that gives you a bonus use of your bond to recast any prepared spell. It doesn’t look very good by comparison.

Evolution feats granting one fixed spell per day need to be compared to the Wizard feat that gives you a bonus use of your bond to recast any prepared spell. It doesn’t look very good by comparison.

Yeah, it's a little underwhelming. Maybe 'always have Summon Nature's Ally/Heal (depending on Bloodline) as an additional 1st level spell with free heightening' would be better? It more limited than the Occult or Arcane versions because it's always the same spell, but the free heightening is super shiny.

We don't yet know the exact number of spells that heighten, so it's hard to give a better estimate here. While the lower list might be overkill in all but the most edge cases, I wouldn't be surprised to see values somewhere between the two lists. In contrast, a wizard or cleric can be expected to have closer to 3-4 different spells available at their top level (5 for a cleric with channeling up).

The Cleric and Wizard have far more than a mere 3 to 5 top options to choose from. Having a limited number of slots doesn't inherently limit their versatility at all, just their endurance. Prepared Casters literally have dozens of options available for their highest levels slots; because unlike the sorcerer, a prepared caster's spells known automatically heighten.

A wizard pays his opportunity cost for a spell when he first recieves it (1 spell learned) and never again. Conversely a Sorcerer is asked to spend up to ¼ of their entire repertoire for the same privelage (effectively having to relearn the same spell again every other level to keep it relevent.

Meanwhile a sorcerer trades having dozens of different spells at their command (and the narrative versatility that brings) for a very slight increase combat versatility and spell-endurance (through more repeated castings of commonly used spells and a few extra Resonance).

If sorcerers could automatically heighten their lowest level spells: Their repertoire would indeed turn into a tree-diagram (with more higher level options than lower level ones) apparantly just like the Wizard's (but really not)... Both would have marginally similar narrative versatility (since having to take a few minutes to prepare a spell is usually fine outside of combat time), but the sorcerer would gain a huge edge in combat versatility over the wizard while retaining their slight edge in endurance.
Sorcerers with autoheightening would break a similarly built specialist wizard over their knee.

That is why I keep arguing for Undercasting (in addition to Spontaneous Heightening) instead, it would make the sorcerer's list broader at the bottom than the top with potentially dozens of low level options, but only four of your highest. Sorcerers would still gain an edge in narrative versatility, but its effects would be more limited, and the wizards verson superior (as they can afford to learn a spell they may only prepare once in their entire carreer while a Sorcerer cannot).

Elleth wrote:

We don't yet know the exact number of spells that heighten, so it's hard to give a better estimate here. While the lower list might be overkill in all but the most edge cases, I wouldn't be surprised to see values somewhere between the two lists. In contrast, a wizard or cleric can be expected to have closer to 3-4 different spells available at their top level (5 for a cleric with channeling up).

The Cleric and Wizard have far more than a mere 3 to 5 top options to choose from. Having a limited number of slots doesn't inherently limit their versatility at all, just their endurance. Prepared Casters literally have dozens of options available for their highest levels slots; because unlike the sorcerer, a prepared caster's spells known automatically heighten.

A wizard pays his opportunity cost for a spell when he first recieves it (1 spell learned) and never again. Conversely a Sorcerer is asked to spend up to ¼ of their entire repertoire for the same privelage (effectively having to relearn the same spell again every other level to keep it relevent.

Meanwhile a sorcerer trades having dozens of different spells at their command (and the narrative versatility that brings) for a very slight increase combat versatility and spell-endurance (through more repeated castings of commonly used spells and a few extra Resonance).

If sorcerers could automatically heighten their lowest level spells: Their repertoire would indeed turn into a tree-diagram (with more higher level options than lower level ones) apparantly just like the Wizard's (but really not)... Both would have marginally similar narrative versatility (since having to take a few minutes to prepare a spell is usually fine outside of combat time), but the sorcerer would gain a huge edge in combat versatility over the wizard while retaining their slight edge in endurance.
Sorcerers with autoheightening would break a similarly built specialist wizard over their knee...

I apologise, perhaps I was unclear with my wording. Clerics and wizards have a number of options when preparing effectively equal in size to their entire spell list, from what we know I don't think the spellbook should be taken into account bar something thematic or a balancing point for the endgame feat that lets you swap out prepped spells (Mark has stated that there are attempts to keep the spell lists balanced with each other, so it's not necessarily the case that Wizards have a big laundry list balanced by them having to manually collect them all). While it's true that Wizard and Cleric spells spontaneously heighten, there is as best we can currently tell no real difference here from 9 different spells that can be prepped at their appropriate levels only. Under said rules I imagine it would be more expected for a sorc to have to take each spell separately, even if it were technically the same as this situation. While I'd rather not turn the conversation into one answer, if there is something you find yourself needing to take repeatedly you might be better off choosing it as one of your two daily options.

However, while we may be using the term slots differently, I'm not trying to argue that less slots diminish the versatility over endurance. With the exception of the reprep feat or suitable time for partial prep (I can't recall if this is a thing in PF2 yet so feel free to remind me) what I am trying to argue is that should all spells be heightenable for spontaneous sorcs then they'd have something like 3-4 times (which I suspect is the low end) as many high end options within the moment as a prepared caster, in addition to the freedom to repeat spells if needed (this freedom being your endurance point if I read you correctly). Which is to say I'm trying to argue that a sorc with free heightening has a considerable amount of adaptability within the moment, and that I personally think the exact level of that which would be available is vastly beyond what would be a fair comparison with a wizard. I think to cut it to the point, it doesn't matter whether or not you could solve the problem, it matters whether or not you can when you need to. Based on your comment about breaking the poor feeble wiz (or cleric. I feel compelled to maintain that we should no longer be comparing sorc primarily to wizard, thanks to them being in competition or partnership with all the other casters now. Not so much relevant here but I feel like it's worth noting) over the knee of a sorc, I feel like you agree with me on the primary point I was trying to make. Which was that free heightening probably would end up being or feeling overpowered in comparison to prepared casters, which I was trying to illustrate to Tach.

That is why I keep arguing for Undercasting (in addition to Spontaneous Heightening) instead, it would make the sorcerer's list broader at the bottom than the top with potentially dozens of low level options, but only four of your highest. Sorcerers would still gain an edge in narrative versatility, but its effects would be more limited, and the wizards verson superior (as they can afford to learn a spell they may only prepare once in their entire carreer while a Sorcerer cannot).

I have no strong opinions on this at present, and it's not what I was trying to discuss. I was simply bringing up my opinion for why free heightening would be in my opinion powerful in comparison to similarly built prepared casters.

However, I'll happily admit that this version could play out better, as you're eating up a high end slot on something that can be downcast. But, ultimately (and some of this is as a DM) it would depend on how this affects how players select spells.

Seoni's look in that picture seems like precisely the look one would give if someone were explaining to them "you know, your old outfit was better".

So kudos to the artist.

Or perhaps it is a look of annoyance directed at someone explaining to her why "this new outfit is better." :)

Okay. Seeing I previously discussed the Sorcerer and Heighten Spells in the Wizard blog thread, I thought I should answer concerns about the Heighten Spell ability and how it's limited for the Sorcerer.

Let's say the Sorcerer could Heighten just one spell for each spell level. It starts slow, but at higher levels it ends up with a huge amount of choice that will cause a lot of delays and also overpower the Sorcerer. Seriously, it doesn't seem like much at first, but it quickly becomes quite overpowered.

If the Sorcerer has three spells and one Bloodline spell without ANY Heighten Spells, then at 11th level they have 20 spells (four for each Spell Tier) and however many Cantrips. But if you have Heightened Spells for just ONE Spell of each Tier, you end up with effectively 30 spells - because that Tier 1 spell is good for the 2nd through 5th Tiers, that 2nd Tier spell is good for the 3rd through 5th Tiers, and on down the line.

Further, each Tier ends up with a larger and larger selection of spells to choose from. A level 18 Sorcerer with just one Heighten Spell per Tier would have 13 9th Tier spells (including the Bloodline spell). It doesn't matter that they only have 4 spell slots to cast from - they have a huge selection that Wizards definitely don't have. What's more, they would have a total of 72 spells to choose from leading from the 1st Tier (with 4 spells) to the 9th Tier (with 13 spells). It would quickly become quite confusing and would massively slow down the game. Worse, it constrains the Sorcerer to make sure at least ONE spell is chosen not for their image of their character but because it is the best spell of that Tier to Heighten as the character levels up.

Even if the Sorcerer's Heighten Spell ability only goes to the maximum Spell Tier and can't be utilized for lower Tier slots (and that seems unlikely), they STILL would have 33 Spells available with a vast selection of 9th Tier spells compared to the Wizard.

Meanwhile, the Wizard at 18th level has 29 spells (and three or four 9th Tier spells), and with their Focus they can recast any one of those spells once. Why the heck would anyone want to play a Wizard when it's so underpowered compared to the Sorcerer?

The new system STILL has the Sorcerer with a slight edge in some ways over the Wizard. Depending on when they get the spells that Heighten, they STILL would (at 18th level) have six 9th Tier spells available... and (depending on how Heighten Spell works) potentially six 8th Tier spells, six 7th Tier spells, and so forth. They are constrained in their spell selection, but even that can be worked around through Scrolls, Wands, and Staves - and with their higher Charisma they can utilize these more frequently, though I'm sure the Wizard has other benefits that Sorcerers lack.

And yes, a huge spell selection slows the game down. I've stated this before. I've SEEN this before. While I think the spell selection has been cut far too much (Clerics, Wizards, and Sorcerers should get at least one extra maximum spell for each Tier), by reducing the number of spells available you speed up the game. Nor does this mean a Wizard or Sorcerer (or Cleric!) who uses up normal spells is out of luck... they can still use Cantrips and Orisons which level up. They're not as good as a spell of the same level but they can cast it several scores of times a day (in theory "infinite" but given there's 24 hours in a day, assuming six-second rounds and non-stop combat for every moment of that day it's a little over 17,000 times in that day - so not quite infinite due to how time itself works).

So, tl;dr - Paizo, Developers, I like what I've seen. I've not exactly been the most positive of folk on the forums especially after the Wizard came out... but it looks like the Sorcerer is going to be an interesting and enjoyable character, with elements of the Oracle and other Spontaneous Casters mixed in.

I just wonder how you're going to fit in blogs for everything you have left to tease us with - we've not had the Human or Demi-Human Blogs yet, we've Druids and Bards still to discuss, and a half dozen different topics you've hinted at that could be touched upon as well.

While I've not liked everything I've seen with PF2, I look forward to seeing the Playtest Rules and with my group help shape the final form that PF2 takes through our playtesting and input.

How many spells known is the sorcerer getting now?

A Wizard can have every spell in his spellbook and prepare what he needs, when he needs it. I imagine there is a feat that lets him change his prepared spells on-the-spot (probably a higher level feat, but still), and I'm almost positive there are feats that let him prepare faster than usual, as there were in PF1.

A Wizard can have every spell in his spellbook if he gets to copy them, but that requires to find the spell (and they have different levels of rarity) and then copy them (and that require money and time). I can be mistaken, but it seems that the free spells he gets when he increases his level are only common spells.

when he needs it if he did find that what were the needed spells a day in advance.
Or if he has left some open spell slot. After all, he has so mani pells lot that leaving some open make no difference, right?
imagine there is a feat that lets him change his prepared spells on-the-spot If you call "in ten minutes" on the spot, right.

You realize that your "the wizard has a huge advantage" argument is based on spending resources with extreme liberality?
Maybe the sorcerer has the same kind of option if he is willing to spend money, time and feats. But that doesn't count in your evaluation of the class.

A PF1 sorcerer can learn an extra spell of his highest level spending a feat. He can learn 2 spells of a lower level with the same feat.
Even better he can retrain the feat so he always has one extra spell know of his highest level.
What will be the equivalent feat in PF2? Learning a heightened spell up to a level 1 less than your highest spell level?

How many spells known is the sorcerer getting now?

Three per level, plus bloodline spell.

master_marshmallow wrote:

How many spells known is the sorcerer getting now?

Three per level, plus bloodline spell.

Three per spell level, plus bloodline spells

Seoni's look in that picture seems like precisely the look one would give if someone were explaining to them "you know, your old outfit was better".

So kudos to the artist.

No, wait, I've seen this one before. It's the look one gives in response to "You should smile more. You'd be much prettier if you smiled."

To be honest, the "limited" Bloodline abilities isn't that limited. The 1st Edition Pathfinder Sorcerer didn't have many Bloodline abilities either. Three abilities seems about on par with what was provided in the past. I just hope that there isn't a lot of replication in abilities between Bloodlines - one problem I had with the Sorcerer's abilities was how essentially similar certain Bloodlines ended up being (usually encouraging melee combat which is NOT what most Sorcerers want to get into!).

----------------

The kicker is that Casters of all sorts are going to be required to have a high Charisma now, lest they end up massively underpowered. So say farewell to the days of the gruff uncharismatic Wizard who never became socialized because she was always busy with her nose deep in the books and doesn't know how to deal with people except with her magic. Now she would need to either have a "heart of gold" or the like because otherwise she is going to be significantly limited on devices that expand her spell base - wands and staves (and scrolls).

That also goes for the Cleric. If they don't have a high Charisma then a core ability of their class goes unused - they would be limited to three uses of Channel Energy. So the quiet bumbling Cleric who is unsure of themselves and doesn't preach to the masses but is quietly faithful ends up losing out because they need Charisma to utilize both Channel Energy and Resonance for magic items to enhance their now-limited casting abilities.

(That does make me wonder though - will Clerics, Divine-path Sorcerers, and perhaps Bards have a Feat that would allow them to "channel" a couple points of Resonance to someone else for use in drinking Potions? After all, if Potions fail to work because Resonance runs out (and I'm not sure if I want to risk a 50/50 chance of that healing potion failing when push comes to shove) then having someone else be able to use their Resonance for their comrades seems very much in character for these classes.)

Sadly, we won't find out today. The Devs have fled this thread, though it is Thursday (I was on the road through Tuesday so I missed the start of the conversation).

A Wizard can have every spell in his spellbook if he gets to copy them, but that requires to find the spell (and they have different levels of rarity) and then copy them (and that require money and time). I can be mistaken, but it seems that the free spells he gets when he increases his level are only common spells.
when he needs it if he did find that what were the needed spells a day in advance.

The wizard also gets to learn more spell at each level up, which means that you could learn freely the more rare spell this way and learn the most common spell by finding scrolls or copy them.

Now I would like to take a moment and say that we should stop comparing the sorcerer only to the wizard since the sorcerer now seems to be a good alternative to a Cleric.

Clerics do have access to the full spell list and can prepare what they want, but they get less casting but with an additional benefit of 3+CHA free heightened heal spell.

I honestly can't wait to see how good of an alternative the sorcerer can be to a cleric.

Is anyone else going to try to make a party with a sorcerer as the main Arcane caster and another sorcerer as the main Healer in the playtest?

Is anyone else going to try to make a party with a sorcerer as the main Arcane caster and another sorcerer as the main Healer in the playtest?

I definitely will, at least if it looks like a sorcerer can pull their weight there. Heck, depending on how the bloodlines look, I might try an all-sorcerer party. ^_^

The kicker is that Casters of all sorts are going to be required to have a high Charisma now, lest they end up massively underpowered.

What stats are all those unused Charisma bumps going to? Those uncharismatic wizards and clerics can focus on other aspects of their builds. Or they could start at 10 and increase Charisma as they grow into themselves and their party.

Whether or not it's overpowered to allow free spontaneous heightening is contentious at present and we won't get a better feel until the playtest. I personally believe it probably is, as it means that compared to a cleric or wizard a sorc would have a staggeringly large number of options on tap if built in any sorc of optimal way. For example, let's look at a sorc with all 9 spell slots at 4 spells of each level with the hypothetical ability to heighten freely. For the first 8 spell levels let's assume 1/4 are heightenable to every level (rather than fussing with half of them heightening every two levels or something). We would get the following number of options at each spell level:

Level 1: 4 spells
Level 2: 5 spells
Level 3: 6 spells
Level 4: 7 spells
Level 5: 8 spells
Level 6: 9 spells
Level 7: 10 spells
Level 8: 11 spells
Level 9: 12 spells

If we assumed the sorc had managed to choose options that averaged out at two new options at every level past first we'd get the following set up instead:
Level 1: 4 spells
Level 2: 6 spells
Level 3: 8 spells
Level 4: 10 spells
Level 5: 12 spells
Level 6: 14 spells
Level 7: 16 spells
Level 8: 18 spells
Level 9: 20 spells

We don't yet know the exact number of spells that heighten, so it's hard to give a better estimate here. While the lower list might be overkill in all but the most edge cases, I wouldn't be surprised to see values somewhere between the two lists. In contrast, a wizard or cleric can be expected to have closer to 3-4 different spells available at their top level (5 for a cleric with channeling up). From what we know an abusively built universalist wizard might be able to outperform a sorc in lower level casting shenanigans, but a freely heightenable endgame sorcerer would seem to have a massive advantage in options over prepared casters.

As said I can see the point of it being overpowered. And as you have said it´s difficult to judge without having it played befor so I won´t argue much about it befor having it played myself. I´d argue that in theory having all spells form one list (or acually in case of clerics)is also overpowered.

While the thematics are slightly off with the "preparing" the spells for spontaneous heightening, I feel that's the sort of thing that might feel slightly different with a tiny bit of flavour text, like "Each day, a sorcerer can focus her mind on the tasks ahead, her magical blood granting supernatural control over two spells that will help her in the events yet to come."

To me it doesn´t really feel different when I read it but that´s probebly also due to my bias. I always thought that a sorcerers choice of spells wasn´t acually chosen by the character but those are the ones his blood gives him access to and changing known spells isn´t really posible (Which the rules state otherwise that I apperently completly locked away in my mind). It never crosed my mind (till now) that it might be different. That´s also what pushes my thoughts to a sorcerers powers are either completly flexible or locked in for the rest of his live. Thou if it´s different i have a hard time understanding why the sorcerer has a limit on his known spells and the wizard doesn´t. And befor anyone says it´s because of his spellbook why can´t the sorcerer use one the same way then?

Even if the Sorcerer's Heighten Spell ability only goes to the maximum Spell Tier and can't be utilized for lower Tier slots (and that seems unlikely), they STILL would have 33 Spells available with a vast selection of 9th Tier spells compared to the Wizard.

Meanwhile, the Wizard at 18th level has 29 spells (and three or four 9th Tier spells), and with their Focus they can recast any one of those spells once. Why the heck would anyone want to play a Wizard when it's so underpowered compared to the Sorcerer?

The new system STILL has the Sorcerer with a slight edge in some ways over the Wizard. Depending on when they get the spells that Heighten, they STILL would (at 18th level) have six 9th Tier spells available... and (depending on how Heighten Spell works) potentially six 8th Tier spells, six 7th Tier spells, and so forth. They are constrained in their spell selection, but even that can be worked around through Scrolls, Wands, and Staves - and with their higher Charisma they can utilize these more frequently, though I'm sure the Wizard has other benefits that Sorcerers lack.

I don´t quite understand what you are arguing here? Are you saying the sorcerer knows more spells than the wizard? Because the answer is to that is simply no. Even if a sorcerer learns more spells per level (which i can´t find right now) the wizard can learn more spells throught the nature of spellbooks.

If you are arguing that a sorcerer has more spells he can cast at anygiven time? Yes, but that´s exactly what a spontanous caster is supposed to have as an exchange for the limited known spells. It might be to much it might not. I can´t really say that befor seeing all spells and how many have heightening.

And yes, a huge spell selection slows the game down. I've stated this before. I've SEEN this before. While I think the spell selection has been cut far too much (Clerics, Wizards, and Sorcerers should get at least one extra maximum spell for each Tier), by reducing the number of spells available you speed up the game. Nor does this mean a Wizard or Sorcerer (or Cleric!) who uses up normal spells is out of luck... they can still use Cantrips and Orisons which level up. They're not as good as a spell of the same level but they can cast it several scores of times a day (in theory "infinite" but given there's 24 hours in a day, assuming six-second rounds and non-stop combat for every moment of that day it's a little over 17,000 times in that day - so not quite infinite due to how time itself works).

Well the more choices always slow down. I´d argue it doesn´t matter if it´s in a battle or at the start of a day because I have seen it in my group mostly at the start of the day for preparing spell which slowed down everything. But in my group everyone tries to think about what to do during the other players turns and do the first thing that comes to mind when it´s their turn.

Diego Rossi wrote:

A Wizard can have every spell in his spellbook if he gets to copy them, but that requires to find the spell (and they have different levels of rarity) and then copy them (and that require money and time). I can be mistaken, but it seems that the free spells he gets when he increases his level are only common spells.
when he needs it if he did find that what were the needed spells a day in advance.

The wizard also gets to learn more spell at each level up, which means that you could learn freely the more rare spell this way and learn the most common spell by finding scrolls or copy them.

Are you sure the wizard is allowed to add rare spells to his spellbook at each level? Or will they be limited to common or uncommon spells at lower levels?

Three per spell level, plus bloodline spells

That looks like not a lot. Where was that stated?

Edit: Messed up the quoting. XD

Now I would like to take a moment and say that we should stop comparing the sorcerer only to the wizard since the sorcerer now seems to be a good alternative to a Cleric.

I like the Cleric to Socrerer comparison better... because it removes GM Fiat/Loot from consideration; but how different it is from Wizard to Sorcerer depends a lot on elements of the Traditions we don't know yet (and can't verify without a copy of the playtest)

For example, In PF1 a divine spellcaster can technically only prepare spells once per day, at as close to a particular time each day as possible. IIRC they are given no allowance to prepare their spells individually like arcane casters are.
So clerics didn't get the "I can just leave slots open to pray for Cure Blindness/Deafness" advantage wizards and witches got for their spells.

Are you sure the wizard is allowed to add rare spells to his spellbook at each level? Or will they be limited to common or uncommon spells at lower levels?

We have nothing that tells us they are limited right now, thus it is normal to make the assumption that they are not limited.

The only info we currently have is: As a wizard goes up in level, they gain more spells that they can cast (either one extra spell of their highest level, or two of a new level) and their proficiency at spellcasting also increases.

We have nothing that tells us they are limited right now, thus it is normal to make the assumption that they are not limited.

The only info we currently have is: As a wizard goes up in level, they gain more spells that they can cast (either one extra spell of their highest level, or two of a new level) and their proficiency at spellcasting also increases.

I believe that discusses spell slots, not spells known/recorded in the spellbook.

KingOfAnything wrote:

Are you sure the wizard is allowed to add rare spells to his spellbook at each level? Or will they be limited to common or uncommon spells at lower levels?

We have nothing that tells us they are limited right now, thus it is normal to make the assumption that they are not limited.

The only info we currently have is: As a wizard goes up in level, they gain more spells that they can cast (either one extra spell of their highest level, or two of a new level) and their proficiency at spellcasting also increases.

Did you follow the previewed druid and other PaizoCon banquet information?

Druid is a prepared caster, but appears to have spells known, and spells appear to have rarities (at least common and uncommon). Taking the feat for 10th level spells at level 20 gives you a 10th level slot, and lets you add two 10th level spells of rarity common or uncommon from the primal list to your list of spells known. You appear to have default access to common Druid spells for other spell levels.

Spells appear to have rarities and those rarities affect access.

Hi Tach1223, and welcome to the forum.

My thoughts on spontaneous heightening are that, while it is theoretically like a prepared spell in practice you will have your go-to spells for heightening. This is because the utility of many heightened spells overlap. (e.g Invisibility (1), which is pf1 vanish, will give invisibility (2) - pf1 invisibility and invisibility (4) - pf1 greater Invisibility. These all do essentially the same thing so you are better off just getting Invisibility (4)).
Since there is no point in getting heightened versions of these spells, it will reinforce the idea that these remain your permanent heightened spells, and the only time you would change it is in downtime when you need a higher level version of a known spell for crafting (e.g. you have invisibilty (1) and want to craft a property rune for invisibilty (4)) , or there is a skill boost spell you can apply to downtime activities.

It still retains the flavour of sorcerer spontaneity since (unlike a wizard) you don't actually use any slots for it unless you cast a spell, and you decide then what slot you use. This contrasts with the wizard who had to decide in the morning what slots he is allocating to that spell; if he gets the wrong slot he might waste the slot or only get a partial effect whereas the sorcerer can pick the right slot for the effect he needs, as often as he needs it (so long as he has slots left).

Thanks for the welcome.

If in practice it would be the go-to spells anyways I´d say make them fixed. I see how changing them sometimes is very useful but i don´t think it fits the thematic of a sorcerer that get´s his spells from his blood and can´t change what spells he gets (which is how I picture it and realised isn´t as definite as i thought)

Did you follow the previewed druid and other PaizoCon banquet information?

I tried as best as I could.

QuidEst wrote:

Druid is a prepared caster, but appears to have spells known, and spells appear to have rarities (at least common and uncommon). Taking the feat for 10th level spells at level 20 gives you a 10th level slot, and lets you add two 10th level spells of rarity common or uncommon from the primal list to your list of spells known. You appear to have default access to common Druid spells for other spell levels.

Spells appear to have rarities and those rarities affect access.

Thanks for the additional info.

If that's the case, I still think it's a bit far fetched to say that the sorcerer will be able to learn uncommon spell and the wizard won't.

If we apply the druid knowledge we have to other spellcasters, that should mean that wizards and sorcerer don't have default access to uncommon spells, and we should not take for granted that sorcerer have easier access to them.

Rarity might also just be a gateway-tag used to prevent casters who get their "whole list" from getting out of hand again. In that regard it would be a very useful mechanic.

For example, Druids and Clerics might only be able to choose from all common spells of their Tradition when preparing spells. The entries for deities could then declare certain spells are common or uncommon to members of that faith (to produce more contextual variance in their options).

Similarly supplement writers can simply tag a spell as Uncommon to require clerics and druids (and maybe wizards) engage in downtime researching the spell before they can 'learn' it... thereby reducing power-creep for those Traditions of magic. New spells could also note exceptions, such as being common to one faith, but uncommon to another.

Likewise, a campaign setting can include alternate lists of common and uncommon spells to tweek the feeling of the world (in addition to being able to tune it further through the setting's pantheons).

Really though any number of things could manipulate rarity, including ancestry, background, and even archetypes. I'd love a set of spells that were "common to pirates" for my exemplar Pirate-Wizard with a Parrot familiar.

For example, Druids and Clerics might only be able to choose from all common spells of their Tradition when preparing spells.

For the record, we factually know this is true of Druid, and it almost certainly applies to Cleric as well. Both can presumably add some rarer ones in various ways, but they likely either require serious effort or resource investment (or both).

My bet is that it applies to the 'free' spells a Wizard gets from leveling, too, meaning they need to actively go out and find rarer spells.

How all this effects Spontaneous Casters I have no idea.

edduardco wrote:

Three per spell level, plus bloodline spells

That looks like not a lot. Where was that stated?

I think it was a Mark Seifter quote early in the comments.

If you choose a 1st level spell that heightens at every level, like Heal or (presumably) Summon Monster and apply your autoheighten to them, you effectively get 6 spells known at each spell level. Plus arcane and occult casters can take their evolution feat to get a changeable 7th spell known at whatever spell level they choose. The autoheightens also provide some potential flexibility if you have multiple options and change them daily.

It's not as bad as I too thought at first.

My bet is that it applies to the 'free' spells a Wizard gets from leveling, too, meaning they need to actively go out and find rarer spells.

How all this effects Spontaneous Casters I have no idea.

Since it's a "bet", I would really like for people to stop saying that wizard's spellbook versatility isn't better than the sorcerer's.

We should stick to things that we do know for now and adjust afterward to additional knowledge we acquire.

Thus, Wizards have versatility and Sorcerers have endurance. And saying that Sorcerers can mitigate that lack of versatility through Scroll/Wands/Staves, which all are DM dependent, is questionable.

Tach1223 wrote:

edduardco wrote:

Three per spell level, plus bloodline spells

That looks like not a lot. Where was that stated?

I think it was a Mark Seifter quote early in the comments.

Yep, I can confirm

If you choose a 1st level spell that heightens at every level, like Heal or (presumably) Summon Monster and apply your autoheighten to them, you effectively get 6 spells known at each spell level. Plus arcane and occult casters can take their evolution feat to get a changeable 7th spell known at whatever spell level they choose. The autoheightens also provide some potential flexibility if you have multiple options and change them daily.

It's not as bad as I too thought at first.

That's questionable... spells can be heightened but there is only one spell, so you don't really know 6 spells, it's more like you know one version of the spell (while the wizard auto learn all 6 versions).

About the additional 7th spell they know... the Spontaneous Heightening system is really messy since it creates X version of the spells (maybe?) for spontaneous spellcasters.

We are now in a situation where we don't know what "learning" a spell means... do you learn it as a base version? Can you learn a "Heigthened" version of the spell? Are the arcane and occult casters evolution feats letting you learn only the base version of the spell? The "Heightened" version on the scroll? One of the "Heightened" version of the spell of your own choosing?

I think that collapsing all spell "versions" into one spell that can be heightened is a great idea, but all of this is just confusing for spontaneous casters since they'll have to manage a system where they know a specific heightened version of the spell but not the base version...

Are we even sure it works like that? Maybe they can only learn the base version (ex: Heal), since the heightened spell (ex:Heal Heightened 3) does not really exist as a spell (only Heal exist)!

Xenocrat wrote:

Tach1223 wrote:

edduardco wrote:

Three per spell level, plus bloodline spells

That looks like not a lot. Where was that stated?

I think it was a Mark Seifter quote early in the comments.

Yep, I can confirm

Xenocrat wrote:

If you choose a 1st level spell that heightens at every level, like Heal or (presumably) Summon Monster and apply your autoheighten to them, you effectively get 6 spells known at each spell level. Plus arcane and occult casters can take their evolution feat to get a changeable 7th spell known at whatever spell level they choose. The autoheightens also provide some potential flexibility if you have multiple options and change them daily.

It's not as bad as I too thought at first.

That's questionable... spells can be heightened but there is only one spell, so you don't really know 6 spells, it's more like you know one version of the spell (while the wizard auto learn all 6 versions).

About the additional 7th spell they know... the Spontaneous Heightening system is really messy since it creates X version of the spells (maybe?) for spontaneous spellcasters.

We are now in a situation where we don't know what "learning" a spell means... do you learn it as a base version? Can you learn a "Heigthened" version of the spell? Are the arcane and occult casters evolution feats letting you learn only the base version of the spell? The "Heightened" version on the scroll? One of the "Heightened" version of the spell of your own choosing?

I think that collapsing all spell "versions" into one spell that can be heightened is a great idea, but all of this is just confusing for spontaneous casters since they'll have to manage a system where they know a specific heightened version of the spell but not the base version...

Are we even sure it works like that? Maybe they can only learn the base version (ex: Heal), since the heightened spell (ex:Heal Heightened 3) does not really exist as a spell (only Heal exist)!

"That means that if you want your angelic sorcerer to be able to cast 1st-level heal, 2nd-level heal, and 3rd-level heal, you can choose your 1st-level heal spell with spontaneous heightening rather than needing to learn the spell in your spell repertoire at all three spell levels." This would indicate that you can learn more than the basic heal and that you have to learn them all if you want them all... if you don´t use spontaneous heightening...Edit: which you can only use for two spells a day... (which I don´t like...)

I wouldn't mind seeing the granted channels from Divine Evolution increase to "a number of times per day equal to your Charisma modifier", personally. That seems like enough to do the job, without completely eating the cleric's lunch.

Would we need to improve the other three evolution feats in order to "keep pace" with the divine one? I think the divine sorcerer, being able to nominate "Heal" as a Spontaneous Healing (we really need a short hand for that) spell allows them to have a lot more potential healing than the cleric (who presumably did not prepare a ton of heals) which might be enough.

It is pretty clear that as a Sorcerer, we can add whichever permutation of the spell we desire to our repertoire, but can only cast that specific permutation unless we select it with Spontaneous Heightening that day.

So you can learn "Chain Lightning" (as Lightning Bolt VI), and select it with spontaneous heightening when you need the extra ~8 Lightning Bolt IIIs doing so would let you cast. Same goes with "Delayed Blast Fireball" (Fireball VII) and "Fireball" (Fireball III) (except you get ~12 castings of Fireball III)... all of this is of course assuming you don't need those other slots for something else.

We are now in a situation where we don't know what "learning" a spell means... do you learn it as a base version? Can you learn a "Heigthened" version of the spell? Are the arcane and occult casters evolution feats letting you learn only the base version of the spell? The "Heightened" version on the scroll? One of the "Heightened" version of the spell of your own choosing?

I think that collapsing all spell "versions" into one spell that can be heightened is a great idea, but all of this is just confusing for spontaneous casters since they'll have to manage a system where they know a specific heightened version of the spell but not the base version...

I found it useful to distinguish between a sorcerer's spells known and their repertoire. So a sorcerer can know a spell (base version), but only have a heightened version in her repertoire. Until she chooses that spell as a spontaneous heighten and adds all levels of the spell to her repertoire for the day.

I'm pretty sure they went bite because it makes the most sense with the Temp HP

*shrug* vampiric touch drains hps fine without biting anyone, plus rage just hands them out, so I'm not sure biting makes more contextual sense.

I think the thing i like most potentially is that a sorcerer with a celestial bloodline will get some divine action.

Some hot, sexy divine action? You have my attention! ;)

It is pretty clear that as a Sorcerer, we can add whichever permutation of the spell we desire to our repertoire, but can only cast that specific permutation unless we select it with Spontaneous Heightening that day.

So you can learn "Chain Lightning" (as Lightning Bolt VI), and select it with spontaneous heightening when you need the extra ~8 Lightning Bolt IIIs doing so would let you cast. Same goes with "Delayed Blast Fireball" (Fireball VII) and "Fireball" (Fireball III) (except you get ~12 castings of Fireball III)... all of this is of course assuming you don't need those other slots for something else.

yeah, apart from spont. Heighten, it's the same as in pf1 for the sorcerer. !earning invisibility did not entitle you to automatically know greater invisibility; all that's changed is that one has become a heightened version of the other.

Wizards do get to know the heightened version automatically, but knowing is not the same as casting for them.

Deadmanwalking wrote:

My bet is that it applies to the 'free' spells a Wizard gets from leveling, too, meaning they need to actively go out and find rarer spells.

How all this effects Spontaneous Casters I have no idea.

Since it's a "bet", I would really like for people to stop saying that wizard's spellbook versatility isn't better than the sorcerer's.

We should stick to things that we do know for now and adjust afterward to additional knowledge we acquire.

Thus, Wizards have versatility and Sorcerers have endurance. And saying that Sorcerers can mitigate that lack of versatility through Scroll/Wands/Staves, which all are DM dependent, is questionable.

Well less spells learend automaticly makes the ability of the wizard to learn spells in other ways more powerful.

Do the 1/Day Evolution feats should also make the associated Spell a free Spontaneous Heightening. Obviously when you cast it using that 1 extra spell slot it does, but I mean the other times you cast it using your normal spells?

It is pretty clear that as a Sorcerer, we can add whichever permutation of the spell we desire to our repertoire, but can only cast that specific permutation unless we select it with Spontaneous Heightening that day.

So you can learn "Chain Lightning" (as Lightning Bolt VI), and select it with spontaneous heightening when you need the extra ~8 Lightning Bolt IIIs doing so would let you cast. Same goes with "Delayed Blast Fireball" (Fireball VII) and "Fireball" (Fireball III) (except you get ~12 castings of Fireball III)... all of this is of course assuming you don't need those other slots for something else.

Yeah... and that's what is so messy about this. Spontaneous casters will have a lot more tracking to do than regular casters which can benefit from the simplified system.

Now... about that Spontaneous Heightening ability...

The spontaneous heightening feature lets you choose two spells at the start of each day that you can cast as their heightened versions using any of your spell slots.

If you choose Heal Heightened +2 (that is horrible to read but is the official name) as one of your Heightened spells for the day... does it also mean you can cast Heal and Heal Heightened +1? With that wording, Heal is NOT technically a heightened version of Heal Heightened +2, it's the base version of the spell, so you will not be able to cast it?

In my opinion you should be able to cast it, but that wording is really bad and confusing as hell.

I know what the blog post mean, but my point is that it's counter intuitive, does not respect the rest of the system, and it's just messy as hell. If such a system was in place, I would remove the Heightened (+X) in the spell description and just call the spell Heal X, with an entry for the effect at each level.

Exemple:

Heal X Spell X
insert regular description
Heal 1 (Spell 1): the healing effect of the spell is 1d8
Heal 2 (Spell 2): the healing effect of the spell is 3d8 for the one or two action version, 2d8 for the three action version.
Heal 3 (Spell 3): ...

Then you could refer to Heal 3 directly, instead of Heal Heightened +2 as the spell you know and are using.