Feats of Skill

C) those that complain that martials can't have cool things really would be better off playing a straight up four-color superhero RPG instead.

You post this kind of things in several of your posts and then you are surprised if the replies are less than corteous?

I'm kind of hoping that feats are more powerful than their conterpart spells.

Mostly because a feat is a heavy and permanent investment, where as spells can be swapped out with ease for most casting classes. Need this ability? Wait a little bit and get the spell, and then set it aside and get a different spell when you don't need it anymore.

But for a feat? Levels and levels of training to finally be able to do it, and once you get it, you have it forever. Don't need it? Too bad, you still have it. The consolidation prize of always having it available when you do need it isn't enough for the spells to be of equal or greater power.

Retraining, for everyone, is part of the core rules of PF2. So spontaneos spellcasters are able to retrain their spells and everyone is able to retrain feats.

Captain Morgan wrote:

I suspect Retraining will help significantly on this.

Depends on the cost (time and money).

Retraining doesn't count for much if it takes 1000 gp per level and a months worth of time - especially when "retraining" for a different spell takes a night's sleep.

Good point.

Vidmaster7 wrote:

How often do demigods even make it into space in mythology? did they even know that lack of oxygen was a worry at the point in time? That is ok my world will adapt. If one character can create an earthquake summon demons and teleport across the globe I'm ok with letting the others do crazy stuff too. Its only fair.

That was precisely my point. I think people build their headcanon about what is realistic in a fantasy setting based on what they saw and read about fantasy and its sources and if something strays too far from that they consider it unrealistic no matter its plausibility, nor the impossibility of things they accept as realistic

But we all have different headcanons of what realism means in a fantasy setting because we have not all seen or read the same things or we have not internally tagged them as fantasy

"Nature abhors a vacuum".

Even ancient Greeks had doubt about that, but it was a basic argument in phsycs till the XVII century.

So there was no example of demigods surviving in vacuum because the concept of vacuum was alien to most people.

BTW, I am agreeing with you.

Let's correct your statement: "something that a level 1 wizard has a 30% chance to do if he has used 1 of his 2 slots to memorize Feather fall and the fall is 60' or less". That completly change the value of your rant, right?

(30% chance because you need to cast the spell while falling, that is a concentration check against 21. Int 20+level 1 give a bonus to 6 to the roll, so he succeed with a 15+)

You're obviously correct about the distance, and about them needing to have it prepared (though I'll note that Spontaneous Casters have a better time with that)...I'm not at all sure you're right about the DC 21 Concentration check, though.

The listed DCs are 10+Level for 'vigorous motion while casting, 15+Level for 'violent motion while casting' and 20+level for 'extremely violent motion while casting'.

But from description all are for repeated jostling side-to-side sort of motion (being shipboard during a storm or on a jostling mount). I'm not sure if falling counts, and if it does it's more likely to be classed as the 15+Level category than the 20+Level one, IMO.

Still, the 60 foot thing alone makes a good point in regards to Catfall being legitimately good.

Diego Rossi wrote:

Let's correct your statement: "something that a level 1 wizard has a 30% chance to do if he has used 1 of his 2 slots to memorize Feather fall and the fall is 60' or less". That completly change the value of your rant, right?

(30% chance because you need to cast the spell while falling, that is a concentration check against 21. Int 20+level 1 give a bonus to 6 to the roll, so he succeed with a 15+)

You're obviously correct about the distance, and about them needing to have it prepared (though I'll note that Spontaneous Casters have a better time with that)...I'm not at all sure you're right about the DC 21 Concentration check, though.

The listed DCs are 10+Level for 'vigorous motion while casting, 15+Level for 'violent motion while casting' and 20+level for 'extremely violent motion while casting'.

But from description all are for repeated jostling side-to-side sort of motion (being shipboard during a storm or on a jostling mount). I'm not sure if falling counts, and if it does it's more likely to be classed as the 15+Level category than the 20+Level one, IMO.

Still, the 60 foot thing alone makes a good point in regards to Catfall being legitimately good.

On level 1, Catfall lets you ignore 10 feet of a fall, 25 if you somehow are an expert in acrobatics.

Yeah, legendary Catfall is quite nice. But I'd say compared to a first level spell of PF1e it loses out falls behind ;) in most circumstances.

Captain Morgan wrote:

Deadmanwalking wrote:

edduardco wrote:

Exactly this, given the example of Mark about Legendary Medicine being the best option I quite sure that several spell got nerfed.

Whether, and how, that effects things like condition removal spells we'll need to wait and see,

My prediction: Removing things like Curses will come down to the level of the spell cast. A 3rd level Remove Curse (or its equivalent, see 2nd prediction) will auto-remove a curse from a 1st or 2nd level slot, but will need to roll a check to remove a 4th level curse.

This is consistent with Mark's specific comments comparing Legendary Medic to high level condition removal spells IIRC, and with how spells like Detect Magic interacts with illusions of different spell levels or Dispel Magic auto-succeeding on lower level spells. How this will interact with non-spell conditions like poison, but since items also now have levels it may be something similar.

A prediction I'm less sure about: while spells will have a tougher time removing conditions than they used to, there will be less specific spells to do it with. So Remove Curse will be gone, and Dispel Magic will now be able to effect curses. This is consistent with different versions of the same spell getting collapsed into each other, there seeming to be a smaller number of conditions, and no mention of clerics being able to leave slots open for later in the day.

If I'm right, this is very good news for spontaneous casters being able to fill the healer role.

In PF1 Remove curse has a 55% chance of success against a spell cast by a same level caster (and i question how is that some people speak of a 55% chance as if that was an automatic success). I doubt that PF2 spells will have a higher chance against same spell level spells.

Probably it will be a 50-55% chance against curses that use the same spell level of the "remove curse" spell, with something like a +/-10% for each spell slot above/below the target...

We know that in some cases having a high enough spell slot autosucceeds at beating a lower level slot, without needing to roll. Higher level illusions don't show up on detect magic. High level Light dispels high level darkness, and Dispel Magic seems to function the same way.

You are probably correct that you still have to roll against equal level spells, but we haven't seen anything conclusive about these mechanics so I wanted to hedge my bets and say you auto succeed against lower spells and have to roll a heck against higher spells.

On level 1, Catfall lets you ignore 10 feet of a fall, 25 if you somehow are an expert in acrobatics.

At higher levels, feather fall lets you fall 60ft. * caster level, so at level 15, a first level spell lets the caster fall 900ft without taking damage. (And it can probably be cast again if you fall more than 900ft.) In addition, you can slow down your allies with feather fall as well (1 creature per level)!

Yeah, legendary Catfall is quite nice. But I'd say compared to a first level spell of PF1e it loses out falls behind ;) in most circumstances.

Sure. But in PF2, spells no longer improve with caster level, only with spell level, and are a bigger investment given that you get fewer.

So that balance is likely gonna shift a bit. Feather Fall is still likely better if you have it and expend it, but Catfall is useful all day every day.

Not going to disagree regarding the power shift in PF2e and how spells improve (that's why I specified the circumstances of PF1e feather fall), but:

You expect the PC's are going to fall down more than one cliff any given adventuring day?

Not going to disagree regarding the power shift in PF2e and how spells improve (that's why I specified the circumstances of PF1e feather fall), but:

You expect the PC's are going to fall down more than one cliff any given adventuring day?

Not until I release my AP "The Wibbly Wobbly Cliffs of Doom."

Diego Rossi wrote:

Let's correct your statement: "something that a level 1 wizard has a 30% chance to do if he has used 1 of his 2 slots to memorize Feather fall and the fall is 60' or less". That completly change the value of your rant, right?

(30% chance because you need to cast the spell while falling, that is a concentration check against 21. Int 20+level 1 give a bonus to 6 to the roll, so he succeed with a 15+)

You're obviously correct about the distance, and about them needing to have it prepared (though I'll note that Spontaneous Casters have a better time with that)...I'm not at all sure you're right about the DC 21 Concentration check, though.

The listed DCs are 10+Level for 'vigorous motion while casting, 15+Level for 'violent motion while casting' and 20+level for 'extremely violent motion while casting'.

But from description all are for repeated jostling side-to-side sort of motion (being shipboard during a storm or on a jostling mount). I'm not sure if falling counts, and if it does it's more likely to be classed as the 15+Level category than the 20+Level one, IMO.

Still, the 60 foot thing alone makes a good point in regards to Catfall being legitimately good.

Its DC 21 because the falling rules specify casting a spell shile falling is Concentration DC 20+Spell level. And it can only be attempted if the spell is an Immediate action cast or the fall is bigger than 500 feet

Not going to disagree regarding the power shift in PF2e and how spells improve (that's why I specified the circumstances of PF1e feather fall), but:

You expect the PC's are going to fall down more than one cliff any given adventuring day?

Depends. I mean, if you need to climb up a cliff and fall...you're now at the bottom of the cliff again, aren't you?

But no, I don't expect it to be super common. I do expect someone with Catfall to take advantage of their ability to jump off things risk-free, though. Casually dropping 25 or 50 feet rather than climbing down can be very useful in a variety of situations.

If you have an at-will ability, you will find all sorts of ways to use it to your advantage, IME.

Its DC 21 because the falling rules specify casting a spell shile falling is Concentration DC 20+Spell level. And it can only be attempted if the spell is an Immediate action cast or the fall is bigger than 500 feet

Ah! You're totally right. I'd missed that. My bad.

nogoodscallywag wrote:

BPorter uses the vacuum of space as an example for Survival Assurance...will it mean players can ignore basic physics? That's the part that bothers me.

We KNOW that physics work differently in pathfinder or giants couldn't survive under thier own weight and dragons wouldn't be able to fly. So how do you prove it's against pathfinder physics?

The whole Earthfall thing would seem to suggest that F=MA is still valid on Golarion.

In fact, with falling damage being deadlier than ever in PF2 for without that Feat, gravitational force would seem to have increased, if anything.

It is possible some mass is affected differently, however. Which could explain why the 250 lb orc and 35 lb gnome can have identical Strength Scores.

graystone wrote:

nogoodscallywag wrote:

BPorter uses the vacuum of space as an example for Survival Assurance...will it mean players can ignore basic physics? That's the part that bothers me.

We KNOW that physics work differently in pathfinder or giants couldn't survive under thier own weight and dragons wouldn't be able to fly. So how do you prove it's against pathfinder physics?

The whole Earthfall thing would seem to suggest that F=MA is still valid on Golarion.

In fact, with falling damage being deadlier than ever in PF2 for without that Feat, gravitational force would seem to have increased, if anything.

It is possible some mass is affected differently, however. Which could explain why the 250 lb orc and 35 lb gnome can have identical Strength Scores.

This is also a world where magic randomly infuses itself into the plants, animals, spirits, and even primordial ooze. Why can't it start infusing itself into the people?

That gives you an explanation of why these people can do these things. They're simply contaminated by the background magical radiation of the world.

Diego Rossi wrote:

Let's correct your statement: "something that a level 1 wizard has a 30% chance to do if he has used 1 of his 2 slots to memorize Feather fall and the fall is 60' or less". That completly change the value of your rant, right?

(30% chance because you need to cast the spell while falling, that is a concentration check against 21. Int 20+level 1 give a bonus to 6 to the roll, so he succeed with a 15+)

You're obviously correct about the distance, and about them needing to have it prepared (though I'll note that Spontaneous Casters have a better time with that)...I'm not at all sure you're right about the DC 21 Concentration check, though.

The listed DCs are 10+Level for 'vigorous motion while casting, 15+Level for 'violent motion while casting' and 20+level for 'extremely violent motion while casting'.

But from description all are for repeated jostling side-to-side sort of motion (being shipboard during a storm or on a jostling mount). I'm not sure if falling counts, and if it does it's more likely to be classed as the 15+Level category than the 20+Level one, IMO.

Still, the 60 foot thing alone makes a good point in regards to Catfall being legitimately good.

I did thought the same, but was show my error some day ago in the rule forum,

It is under the falling rules:

A character cannot cast a spell while falling, unless the fall is greater than 500 feet or the spell is an immediate action, such as feather fall. Casting a spell while falling requires a concentration check with a DC equal to 20 + the spell's level. Casting teleport or a similar spell while falling does not end your momentum, it just changes your location, meaning that you still take falling damage, even if you arrive atop a solid surface.

One of the things about falling damage, is that it's honestly not very heroic. Like how often in books and movies and the like do our heroes fall off of a thing and die? Sure, sometimes they have to dust themselves off and are a little worse for the wear, but for the purposes of "HP attrition" I figure "you fell off the thing" is pretty low on the list of "what's interesting."

So a thing I honestly thought about Cat Fall is "that's unlikely to come up much, isn't it". I figure you could leave falling damage out of the rulebook and the game wouldn't change much.

master_marshmallow wrote:

Hell, giants may only exist because of millenia of exposure to magic which caused them to adapt to having this extra source of energy. In my setting, magical beasts are natural evolutions of creatures exposed to magic over generations.

Giants aren't magical beasts though. They're just humanoids. Also, there's nothing in the PF lore of giants even beginning to suggest that magic is what makes them big.

But every creature has magic within them, hence resonance.

At least that's my head canon.

Vidmaster7 wrote:

Why are you guys arguing PF1 CMD on the play test forums?

Because some guy use that as an argument to say that any caster is Always excessively powerful ant that the only way to balance that is removing the casters or making the legendary abilities too powerful and so unfun for them.

So they argue for reducing spellcasters powers to the point where they will be doing parlor tricks most of the time.

As an example:

Quote:

In pf1 at lv 15, you had 3 choices for fall dmg: Survive due to a class ability (ex: be a ninja or paladin), that most classes lack;b] Be a caster, aka free pass[/b]; Or, straight up die (classes without anti-fall abilities).

Free pass = being capable to cast Feather fall, having it memorized, cast it while falling and using a swift action, make a concentration check at 21 without combat reflex (generally easy for a level 15 caster, but not so easy in the earlier game)

And option 4 is totally absent: "having enough hp that 20d6 don't kill you.

Also option 5 buying/finding an adequate magic item

3. I don't like, the gonzo level of stuff presented in the Legendary feats blog. The fact that some of it may have existed in PF1 is immaterial because I didn't like it there, either. Despite the fact that it would be logical for that to be the case, and that an edition change would be an opportunity to adjust, these kind of arguments keep being presented.

The reason these kind of arguments were brought up repeatedly was because you were insisting that PF2 was essentially changing the setting and suddenly allowing these impossible things when it simply isn't true:

And I think I've discovered the reason for the Gap in Starfinder. PF2 enabled all high-level adventurers to become demigods without an in-universe explanation and the resulting campaign-breaking paradox required Golarion to be retconned out of existence.

Booyah!

I figure all "PF2 is changing the setting" arguments are disingenuous because any mechanical difference between PF1 and PF2 would result in some instance where a thing which was previously impossible became possible or vice versa.

It's just people choose to only highlight this when they don't like a change because they think it's more persuasive than "I don't like this."

I mean, this happens frequently enough with any kind of new rule- e.g. Wolf trip used to teleport people (e.g. with a toppling magic missile) until Ultimate Wilderness made it no longer do that.

Let's correct your statement: "something that a level 1 wizard has a 30% chance to do if he has used 1 of his 2 slots to memorize Feather fall and the fall is 60' or less". That completly change the value of your rant, right?

(30% chance because you need to cast the spell while falling, that is a concentration check against 21. Int 20+level 1 give a bonus to 6 to the roll, so he succeed with a 15+)

I disagree on your interpretation of the casting while falling rule. IMO the concentration check is for the case where the fall is over 500 feet and it is a regular casting of a spell, the fact that feather fall is a swift action and called out separately makes it not require this check.

Also the feather fall spell reads:
Duration: until landing or 1 round/level

The 1/round per level is for the case where you pre-cast before jumping off a cliff. The "until landing" duration allows the caster to fall any distance.

--Edit--
James Jacob on Feather fall:
Nope; no concentration check is necessary to cast feather fall

If my DM required a DC 21 concentration check to cast feather fall while falling, I would look for a new GM.

Diego Rossi wrote:

Let's correct your statement: "something that a level 1 wizard has a 30% chance to do if he has used 1 of his 2 slots to memorize Feather fall and the fall is 60' or less". That completly change the value of your rant, right?

(30% chance because you need to cast the spell while falling, that is a concentration check against 21. Int 20+level 1 give a bonus to 6 to the roll, so he succeed with a 15+)

I disagree on your interpretation of the casting while falling rule. IMO the concentration check is for the case where the fall is over 500 feet and it is a regular casting of a spell, the fact that feather fall is a swift action and called out separately makes it not require this check.

Also the feather fall spell reads:
Duration: until landing or 1 round/level

The 1/round per level is for the case where you pre-cast before jumping off a cliff. The "until landing" duration allows the caster to fall any distance.

--Edit--
James Jacob on Feather fall:
Nope; no concentration check is necessary to cast feather fall

If my DM required a DC 21 concentration check to cast feather fall while falling, I would look for a new GM.

Jacobs says "the instant before you're falling." If you're already falling, it's a DC 21 concentration check, regardless.

And no, the until landing or 1 round/level doesn't mean that. It means if you land before the duration would expire, the spell expires. Otherwise it lasts 1 round/level.

If you're a 3rd level wizard, you cast feather fall, then jump off a 120 ft cliff.

You'll reach the ground in 2 rounds, and then the spell expires, even though it'd last three rounds.

If you're a 3rd level wizard, you cast feather fall and jump off a 240 foot cliff. You fall for 3 rounds at 60 foot per round, then the spell expires and you fall 60 feet normally, taking the associated damage.

The spell description is pretty clear here.

"The affected creatures or objects fall slowly. Feather fall instantly changes the rate at which the targets fall to a mere 60 feet per round (equivalent to the end of a fall from a few feet), and the subjects take no damage upon landing while the spell is in effect. When the spell duration expires, a normal rate of falling resumes."

And if someone throws you off an airship at 200 feet before you can cast it, and you try to cast it while falling, it's DC 21 Concentration, And then the normal rules apply. The concentration check is required to cast any spell while falling. It later calls out that you can only attempt to cast a spell if you're falling more than 500 feet or the spell can be cast as an immediate action (which includes all swift actions).

Diego Rossi wrote:

Let's correct your statement: "something that a level 1 wizard has a 30% chance to do if he has used 1 of his 2 slots to memorize Feather fall and the fall is 60' or less". That completly change the value of your rant, right?

(30% chance because you need to cast the spell while falling, that is a concentration check against 21. Int 20+level 1 give a bonus to 6 to the roll, so he succeed with a 15+)

I disagree on your interpretation of the casting while falling rule. IMO the concentration check is for the case where the fall is over 500 feet and it is a regular casting of a spell, the fact that feather fall is a swift action and called out separately makes it not require this check.

Also the feather fall spell reads:
Duration: until landing or 1 round/level

The 1/round per level is for the case where you pre-cast before jumping off a cliff. The "until landing" duration allows the caster to fall any distance.

It is the actual text of the rule, there is nothing to "interpreter":

First sentence:
"A character cannot cast a spell while falling, unless the fall is greater than 500 feet or the spell is an immediate action, such as feather fall."

Second sentence.
"Casting a spell while falling requires a concentration check with a DC equal to 20 + the spell's level."

Completely separated sentences. You can choose to follow the rules or not, but that is the text.

You can't pre-cast Feather fall because of the target text:
"Targets one Medium or smaller freefalling object or creature/level, no two of which may be more than 20 ft. apart"

The target is one or more freefalling objects or creatures. If you aren't freefalling you aren't a valid target.

--Edit--
James Jacob on Feather fall:
Nope; no concentration check is necessary to cast feather fall

If my DM required a DC 21 concentration check to cast feather fall while falling, I would look for a new GM.

I have a lot of respect for JJ but he is not a rule guy (beside for the Golarion setting). He has no problem with breaking the rules if he feel that that make the story better. Citing his post from 2012 that say that the rule is wrong don't change the rule.

Edit:
TheFinish said it better.

Looks like I misread the duration of feather fall, I still would house rule my interpretation more than likely (honestly I and all the GM's i have played with have inadvertently house ruled it that way). I personally would allow quickened spells while falling also without a concentration check, obviously not as an immediate action.

I would still avoid GM's that stuck to the DC 21 check on the spell.

Not going to disagree regarding the power shift in PF2e and how spells improve (that's why I specified the circumstances of PF1e feather fall), but:

You expect the PC's are going to fall down more than one cliff any given adventuring day?

Maybe not, but I will have flying monsters drop them from great heights multiple times on occasion.

Franz Lunzer wrote:

Not going to disagree regarding the power shift in PF2e and how spells improve (that's why I specified the circumstances of PF1e feather fall), but:

You expect the PC's are going to fall down more than one cliff any given adventuring day?

Maybe not, but I will have flying monsters drop them from great heights multiple times on occasion.

Catfall is a neat little trick, but I suspect there are other legendary skills that would be more useful. How often does a character fall after level 15 (or ever)? The occasional pit trap, maybe there is a creature that picks you up and drops you. But maybe 3-8 times in a 1-17 level career (just thinking back to the APs I have been in).

The funniest fall I remember was when the wizard cast Telekinetic charge on the fighter and moved him onto a hidden pit.

how will paizo garner playtest feedback? Forum threads like on the forums here or website surveys with email login or IP address?

This is answered on the playtest info page

Crayon wrote:

While I'm sure there are as many reasons for groups abandoning APs as there are groups playing the things, I would think that the fact they're supposed to take 2-3 years to complete is probably a much greater contributor to why many people never finish them.

They are? I thought they were supposed to take six months to complete, and my group was just slow.

Release of one book per month seems to suggest they expect people to finish each book in a month (or at least within 4ish session of play).

I'm fine with being wrong on that, it's just the assumption I've always had.

Takes us about 1 year per volume

I removed some antagonistic posts and replies. If you want to really get into debating what playstyles you feel the Playtest a should cater to and how to execute that, its probably better at this point to start a thread specifically for that subject or take it to PM. Additionally, when you find yourself bickering back and forth with another community member(s), its time to take a break from the thread or from the forums. Debate and discussion are welcome here–bickering, insults and fighting are not.

graystone wrote:

nogoodscallywag wrote:

BPorter uses the vacuum of space as an example for Survival Assurance...will it mean players can ignore basic physics? That's the part that bothers me.

We KNOW that physics work differently in pathfinder or giants couldn't survive under thier own weight and dragons wouldn't be able to fly. So how do you prove it's against pathfinder physics?

Yes, what is the Standard Model for PF, can a character's fart provide enough propulsion to move though the atmosphere of Golarian?

Only if you take the Legendary Fart Feat, and have access to Legendary baked beans.

Weather Report wrote:

graystone wrote:

nogoodscallywag wrote:

BPorter uses the vacuum of space as an example for Survival Assurance...will it mean players can ignore basic physics? That's the part that bothers me.

We KNOW that physics work differently in pathfinder or giants couldn't survive under thier own weight and dragons wouldn't be able to fly. So how do you prove it's against pathfinder physics?

Yes, what is the Standard Model for PF, can a character's fart provide enough propulsion to move though the atmosphere of Golarian?

Only if you take the Legendary Fart Feat, and have access to Legendary baked beans.

Totally, opened up by the Fartist archetype.

Ah, somebody smoked out all the people who think that linear fighters quadratic wizards is a good thing.

Calling out BS and busting chops. It's kinda what I do. Ain't I a hoot?

maybe this has been asked before but, can every class, with the right selection of abilities, eventually get any skill they want up to legendary?

maybe this has been asked before but, can every class, with the right selection of abilities, eventually get any skill they want up to legendary?

Probably any one skill yes. We don't know the non-Class ways to acquire a Signature Skill right at the moment, but since it's been said there is one, and that's all you need to do this, I can't see this being impossible.

Grumpus wrote:

maybe this has been asked before but, can every class, with the right selection of abilities, eventually get any skill they want up to legendary?

Probably any one skill yes. We don't know the non-Class ways to acquire a Signature Skill right at the moment, but since it's been said there is one, and that's all you need to do this, I can't see this being impossible.

Is called being Human *half joking*

Grumpus wrote:

maybe this has been asked before but, can every class, with the right selection of abilities, eventually get any skill they want up to legendary?

Probably any one skill yes. We don't know the non-Class ways to acquire a Signature Skill right at the moment, but since it's been said there is one, and that's all you need to do this, I can't see this being impossible.

I'm pretty sure it was reported that the skill feat you get off the Street Urchin background (Pickpocket?) adds Thievery as a Signature Skill.

Going to back to the Legendary Thief...stealing plate mail off a fighter who is standing at attention? This just defies logic. I can understand unbuckling all the holds and such, but then stealing the item from them without them even noticing is just preposterous.

I've seen many people make the assumption it let's you auto steal without being seen, but that's not what's written at all!

Your ability to steal items defies belief. You can attempt to Steal an Object that is actively wielded or that would be extremely noticeable or time-consuming to remove (like worn shoes or armor). You must do so slowly and carefully, spending at least 1 minute and significantly longer for items that are normally time-consuming to remove (like armor). Throughout this duration you must have some means of staying hidden, whether under cover of darkness or in a bustling crowd, for example. You take a -5 penalty to your Thievery check. Even if you succeed, if the item is extremely prominent, like a suit of full plate armor, onlookers will quickly notice it's gone after you steal it.

First, you NEED to stay hidden: "Throughout this duration you must have some means of staying hidden, whether under cover of darkness or in a bustling crowd, for example." That does mean the target could see you.

Even if that doesn't ask for a roll, the next par do:
"You take a -5 penalty to your Thievery check."
That do means you make a check, and at -5! So that's clearly not an auto success. The DC will surely be 10 + their Perception bonus.
So if you try it for a level appropriate foe, the DC could be around 30 (10 + 15 lvl + 1 expert, + 4 WIS)
Considering you're Legendary at thievery, you have a minimum of +23 (assuming +5 DEX) at this roll, -5 so +18... DC 30, you succeed at 12+. We could round it up to ~50% considering unknown factors (maybe you have magic items, maybe the character have a bit less WIS, Maybe you have a bit more DEX, circumstances bonus, he could have a feat giving him a better perception DC, etc).

I mean I would interpret the "steal something someone is wearing" legendary thief feat to involve very deftly and precisely cutting off buttons, slitting seams, cutting straps, and undoing buckles. Nothing that would do permanent damage to an item, but if you steal someone's pants they are not going to be intact pants- you might have to do some sewing (which you likely want to do anyway since the pants you steal likely aren't sized for you.)

As a side note with respect to what PF1 does or doesn't do & Golarion operating by different rules:

Pathfinder as a RPG is a game emulating a fantasy experience. Although the fantastical is present, there is typically an internal logic/consistency to it. Yes, PF1 the game produces mundane results that are at odds with the mundane results we see on Earth. Because it's a game.

However, to make the argument that Golarion "operates by different rules" while excluding magic or another explanation is somewhat disingenuous. Because according to Paizo, Golarion inhabits the same reality as Earth. There are AP installments that interact with Earth. Yes, it is a game representation/alternate reality of Earth but things like breathing, gravity, etc. are assumed to be equivalent within the representation of the game. PCs traveling to Earth didn't "de-level" because they moved to a world operating by different rules. Earth NPCs had class levels and hit points. The emulation provided by the game was consistent.

THIS is the source of heartburn for myself. I don't mind the existence of Legendary tier content existing. I think the implementation is lacking based on what has been described thus far. However, the #1 issue I have with it is that it has been presented as being a mundane result. While things like hit points and other abstractions are presented that way as well, they are intrinsic to the DNA of the game. Legendary tier feats/unlocks, on the other hand, are new additions and feel like a step too far and as presented negatively impact my ability to preserve a sense of immersion or suspension of disbelief.

I admit it's a purely subjective benchmark, but it's not a baseless one.

As a side note with respect to what PF1 does or doesn't do & Golarion operating by different rules:

Pathfinder as a RPG is a game emulating a fantasy experience. Although the fantastical is present, there is typically an internal logic/consistency to it. Yes, PF1 the game produces mundane results that are at odds with the mundane results we see on Earth. Because it's a game.

However, to make the argument that Golarion "operates by different rules" while excluding magic or another explanation is somewhat disingenuous. Because according to Paizo, Golarion inhabits the same reality as Earth. There are AP installments that interact with Earth. Yes, it is a game representation/alternate reality of Earth but things like breathing, gravity, etc. are assumed to be equivalent within the representation of the game. PCs traveling to Earth didn't "de-level" because they moved to a world operating by different rules. Earth NPCs had class levels and hit points. The emulation provided by the game was consistent.

THIS is the source of heartburn for myself. I don't mind the existence of Legendary tier content existing. I think the implementation is lacking based on what has been described thus far. However, the #1 issue I have with it is that it has been presented as being a mundane result. While things like hit points and other abstractions are presented that way as well, they are intrinsic to the DNA of the game. Legendary tier feats/unlocks, on the other hand, are new additions and feel like a step too far and as presented negatively impact my ability to preserve a sense of immersion or suspension of disbelief.

I admit it's a purely subjective benchmark, but it's not a baseless one.

Would it just help if there was an in-universe explanation for why some characters gain their legendary abilities?

Here is a bad answer: Midichlorians

Here is maybe a better answer: "Extraordinary" abilities arise from some poorly understood force in the universe. Maybe it is a natural adaptation of unused magic potential or qi abilities. Maybe it is accessing some power that is latent in the souls intelligent creatures; perhaps the same thing that lets people exist after death and become Aeons or demons or whatever is what empowers them to do other extraordinary feats and they are just drawing on that potential without actually dying. Maybe there is some sort of ur-magic woven into the dark tapestry by Azathoth that lets the rules of reality be broken in subtle ways by people with the appropriate focus and experience.

Maybe it is a combination of these things.

Does it matter if the exact reasons are made explicit or not?

However, to make the argument that Golarion "operates by different rules" while excluding magic or another explanation is somewhat disingenuous. Because according to Paizo, Golarion inhabits the same reality as Earth. There are AP installments that interact with Earth. Yes, it is a game representation/alternate reality of Earth but things like breathing, gravity, etc. are assumed to be equivalent within the representation of the game. PCs traveling to Earth didn't "de-level" because they moved to a world operating by different rules. Earth NPCs had class levels and hit points. The emulation provided by the game was consistent.

This is both sort of true and deeply misleading.

Firstly, it's not in the same Earth as the one we live on. It's one where the Cthulu Mythos and a variety of other magical and fantastical things. There's a wealth of proof for that.

Secondly, elite commandos on Earth are demonstrably 6th level Fighters, and it's strongly implied (and stated by the author of Rasputin Must Die) that them even being that high in level is the result of the odd and magical area the PCs encounter them in making them more powerful. Which means that out in the world they'd be lower level.

So high level people don't de-level, but there's a lot of evidence that high level people also simply don't exist on Earth without interference from elsewhere. Indeed, there's some evidence that you need a magical environment to level beyond a certain point.

BPorter wrote:

However, to make the argument that Golarion "operates by different rules" while excluding magic or another explanation is somewhat disingenuous. Because according to Paizo, Golarion inhabits the same reality as Earth. There are AP installments that interact with Earth. Yes, it is a game representation/alternate reality of Earth but things like breathing, gravity, etc. are assumed to be equivalent within the representation of the game. PCs traveling to Earth didn't "de-level" because they moved to a world operating by different rules. Earth NPCs had class levels and hit points. The emulation provided by the game was consistent.

This is both sort of true and deeply misleading.

Firstly, it's not in the same Earth as the one we live on. It's one where the Cthulu Mythos and a variety of other magical and fantastical things. There's a wealth of proof for that.

Secondly, elite commandos on Earth are demonstrably 6th level Fighters, and it's strongly implied (and stated by the author of Rasputin Must Die) that them even being that high in level is the result of the odd and magical area the PCs encounter them in making them more powerful. Which means that out in the world they'd be lower level.

So high level people don't de-level, but there's a lot of evidence that high level people also simply don't exist on Earth without interference from elsewhere. Indeed, there's some evidence that you need a magical environment to level beyond a certain point.

First of all, the earth in Rasputin Must Die! is supposed to be our Earth. No ifs or buts. The foreword goes into detail about it at length.

First of all, the earth in Rasputin Must Die! is supposed to be our Earth. No ifs or buts. The foreword goes into detail about it at length.

Really? Legendary Cat Fall means you can fall from a height of 1,000 feet and take literally no damage whatsoever? I don't know how I feel about that. While it would certainly take a lot of feats to accomplish this, it seems a bit cartoonish to me. I realize characters are superheroes, but zero damage from this sort of thing is bit much for me. At least this ability is behind a ton of feats costs. Will take some getting used to, if possible. Seems like "mythic" all over again.

In PF1, a 4th level rogue who took Minor Magic and Major Magic talent with the Feather Fall spell could allow a group of people do it. That or any Wizard or Sorcerer with that spell.

Getting a permanent ability at legendary skill that a 4th level core rogue could do multiple times in a single day for a group of people doesn’t sound that horrendous to me.

Oooh, I found an even more definitive statement in regards to how close the Earth you can visit in Pathfinder is to our real Earth:

After all, this is Earth in Golarion's universe, where magic exists, so it's not really exactly the same as our own Earth. For example, I doubt that Rasputin was really an oracle in our world, or that Anastasia was resurrected after her murder. :)

Oooh, I found an even more definitive statement in regards to how close the Earth you can visit in Pathfinder is to our real Earth:

Robert G. McCreary wrote:

After all, this is Earth in Golarion's universe, where magic exists, so it's not really exactly the same as our own Earth. For example, I doubt that Rasputin was really an oracle in our world, or that Anastasia was resurrected after her murder. :)

Ah, well, I had prepared a rather lengthy post, but in light of this there is no need. If the Earth in Rasputin must die! isn't our Earth, but an alternate Earth, then all bets are off.