Big Beards and Pointy Ears

So are all races getting 3 ability score increases? In the goblin preview that said goblins are unique and get a 3rd ability score boost, but dwarves and elf get a 3rd ability boost as well. Or have a misread something. If all or nearly half the races get a 3rd ability boost, I wouldn't really call that unique.

I believe that the standard going forward is that all ancestry option will receive a floating stat bonus in addition to whatever bonuses and penalties they normally get.

I didn't get the sense that "floating stat bonus" was supposed to be unique to goblins from that blog.

So are all races getting 3 ability score increases? In the goblin preview that said goblins are unique and get a 3rd ability score boost, but dwarves and elf get a 3rd ability boost as well. Or have a misread something. If all or nearly half the races get a 3rd ability boost, I wouldn't really call that unique.

I read that to mean that the unassigned bonus allowed you to make your particular goblin more unique (if 1/6 qualifies). It's definitely confusing out-of-contex, however.

So my bad, I misread the goblin blog. I assumed it meant it the 3rd boost was unique to goblins, but it meant based on your unique ancestry you gain a 3rd stat boost. Hobgoblins gain the 3rd boost to con, ect.

I think the idea is to give the floating stat bonus to enable more people to play class and ancestry combinations that were previously difficult to manage due to stat bonuses. Dwarf Paladins are kinda iconic, but the cha penalty hurt, but now you can take it away. Goblin Druids are going to appreciate being able to wipe out the Wis Mod, the Gnome Barbarian of your dreams is just "fixing the strength penalty" away, etc.

Maybe so (except the maybe the the gnome due to weapon-size, if that's still a thing), but it still feels like a lot of trouble to go through when you can get the exact same effect by dropping Ability Score modifiers altogether and simplify the system at the same time...

Maybe so (except the maybe the the gnome due to weapon-size, if that's still a thing), but it still feels like a lot of trouble to go through when you can get the exact same effect by dropping Ability Score modifiers altogether and simplify the system at the same time...

Then you get some people whining they nerfed the uniqueness of the races... which we still get, but probably less than if they removed the whole bonus system.

So does this mean that the bulk of racial abilities from P1 are relegated to feat selection that might be locked at 1st? Do you get a free feat to pick these up with or does the same feat restriction paradigm we have in P1 carry over to 2nd edition?

So does this mean that the bulk of racial abilities from P1 are relegated to feat selection that might be locked at 1st? Do you get a free feat to pick these up with or does the same feat restriction paradigm we have in P1 carry over to 2nd edition?

At various levels (how often, we don't know yet) you get "Ancestry Feats" which are spent on "being dwarfier" or "learning that thing that Dwarves know" rather than "being a better fighter" (these are class feats) or "being sneaker" (these are skill feats) or whatever is left over (those are general feats).

Ancestry Feats, General Feats, Class Feats, and Skill Feats are all called out by name on the advancement chart, so it should be clear how often we get each when those are made available.

So does this mean that the bulk of racial abilities from P1 are relegated to feat selection that might be locked at 1st? Do you get a free feat to pick these up with or does the same feat restriction paradigm we have in P1 carry over to 2nd edition?

You definitely get Ancestry Feats that can't be used for any other Feat category, and definitely get at least one of these at 1st level.

So are we getting more feats at different levels and they are just feat locked, or are we getting more feat options that have to compete with a similar number of slots like we did before? Has Paizo piped up much about any of this?

So are we getting more feats at different levels and they are just feat locked, or are we getting more feat options that have to compete with a similar number of slots like we did before? Has Paizo piped up much about any of this?

So far it seems that it is the first. There are 4 types of feats, which are awarded at different stages in the character’s advancement. Some levels may give more than one type of feat, some levels may not give any.

We're going to be drowning in feats. Rogues, for example, get a skill feat at every level (which can be used to select anything labeled "skill feat") in addition to rogue feats at even levels (which can be used to select anything labeled "rogue feat") as well as ancestry feats and general feats whenever you get those.

So are we getting more feats at different levels and they are just feat locked, or are we getting more feat options that have to compete with a similar number of slots like we did before? Has Paizo piped up much about any of this?

It's the former. You have Ancestry feat slots, Class feat slots, Skill feat slots and general feat slots.

doc the grey wrote:

So are we getting more feats at different levels and they are just feat locked, or are we getting more feat options that have to compete with a similar number of slots like we did before? Has Paizo piped up much about any of this?

It's the former. You have Ancestry feat slots, Class feat slots, Skill feat slots and general feat slots.

Yeah,the different types of feats are mostly not competing with each other so there's no question of trading off. Which is great!

The one semi-exception to that is that you can spend a General Feat slot on a Skill Feat if you like, in addition to your dedicated Skill Feat slots (since Skill Feats are also in the category of General Feats).

See the Leveling Up Blog for the official preview of all of this.

All I can say is YAAAASSS.

My darling dwarves are getting some much needed attention that I am already charmed by this little tidbit.

I cannot wait!!

Ew? Only 600 years for elves? Why does it get less and less with each edition? *pout*

1200 years, then 750, now 600? t.t

Ew? Only 600 years for elves? Why does it get less and less with each edition? *pout*

1200 years, then 750, now 600? t.t

Depending on how Aging is handled in this Edition it might actually have gone up on average in comparison to First Edition, since 750 was the absolute maximum you got from 350 +4d100.

Maybe they should just give elves an Ancestry feat that gives them true ageless immortality, a la Tolkien. That way players who want their elf to be immortal can have it, and it's not like such a power is all that mechanically strong in most campaigns. The game has long since excised aging effects as drawbacks and damage.

Ageing rules should probably just get booted anyway. They vary dramatically by setting and have little to no effect on the game or setting.

Ageing rules should probably just get booted anyway. They vary dramatically by setting and have little to no effect on the game or setting.

IMO, aging is a perfect optional rule to put in a later 'book of options'. A single line of 'matures around x years old and can live up to y years old' in the 'race' write up is enough for people to pick an appropriate age to write on their sheet.

I will say, that from a world-building/verisimilitude with player characters standpoint, having some members of the party matured after just 15 years of life, while others aren't considered mature until their 80's - yet apparently have the same amount of life experience, has always been a sticking point. I'd much rather have elves typically live to about 300 max, and be 'adults' at maybe 30 at the latest.

Ew? Only 600 years for elves? Why does it get less and less with each edition? *pout*

1200 years, then 750, now 600? t.t

in 1 setting i like they only lve like 25 or 30 years

So something I'm curious about from these, can this floating +2 be assigned to a stat you're already getting a racial boost to? It's been mentioned that it can negate your penalty, but I'm curious about a super boon. I kinda hope not cause then more races open up as having good stats where a double up makes some races king of that stat option.

You cant super boost a +2 with a floater.

So something I'm curious about from these, can this floating +2 be assigned to a stat you're already getting a racial boost to? It's been mentioned that it can negate your penalty, but I'm curious about a super boon. I kinda hope not cause then more races open up as having good stats where a double up makes some races king of that stat option.

In the Goblin blog, I am pretty sure they said the floating stat was for any other stat. My assumption would be that that is the general rule, but it would be an assumption at this stage.

_
glass.

Chess Pwn wrote:

So something I'm curious about from these, can this floating +2 be assigned to a stat you're already getting a racial boost to? It's been mentioned that it can negate your penalty, but I'm curious about a super boon. I kinda hope not cause then more races open up as having good stats where a double up makes some races king of that stat option.

In the Goblin blog, I am pretty sure they said the floating stat was for any other stat. My assumption would be that that is the general rule, but it would be an assumption at this stage.

Beyond that, your goblin's unique ancestry allows you to choose one ability score other than Dexterity or Charisma to receive a boost.

Elves' grace gives them an ability boost to Dexterity, and their years of study give them one to Intelligence. Their third ability boost can represent the other score they developed over the years.

Why put average speed from 30 to 25 instead of keeping it as is and giving the Elves 35 ?
They could even give 25 to the slow races

This way the gaps stay the same but no one loses speed

I'm not sure about you, but a five square baseline is really easy to count on my fingers.

Plus, with a three action turn, everyone is going faster, not slower.

Why put average speed from 30 to 25 instead of keeping it as is and giving the Elves 35 ?

They could even give 25 to the slow races

This way the gaps stay the same but no one loses speed

Because you're getting an extra action per turn.

So, you'll be able to move 90' as an elf, 75' as a human. Two move actions previously would have netted you 60'.

This means that most races will be "relatively close" to their prior round maximum. Elves get an additional bit of uniqueness by that small speed boost.

The Raven Black wrote:

Why put average speed from 30 to 25 instead of keeping it as is and giving the Elves 35 ?

They could even give 25 to the slow races

This way the gaps stay the same but no one loses speed

Because you're getting an extra action per turn.

So, you'll be able to move 90' as an elf, 75' as a human. Two move actions previously would have netted you 60'.

This means that most races will be "relatively close" to their prior round maximum. Elves get an additional bit of uniqueness by that small speed boost.

Yes, you get an extra potential move action. And as I've pointed out before, that actually works /perfectly/ with the 4 main modes of speed as they exist in D&D and PF1, without having to change speed. To wit:

* Moving once is walking.
* Moving twice is jogging.
* Moving three times is running. Except now you don't need a special action for this, it's just using all your actions each round.
* Moving four times is sprinting. This can be a special "full action" that uses your three actions the same as running, but in exchange for the greater speed you become flat-footed until your next turn.

The new action economy made this easier to model than ever, so I'm not sure why they felt they needed to change the speeds. The new speeds will be hard for people to grok when they've been playing D&D and any number of other games forever, where moving 6 squares is kinda the human norm.

The Raven Black wrote:

Why put average speed from 30 to 25 instead of keeping it as is and giving the Elves 35 ?

They could even give 25 to the slow races

This way the gaps stay the same but no one loses speed

Because you're getting an extra action per turn.

So, you'll be able to move 90' as an elf, 75' as a human. Two move actions previously would have netted you 60'.

This means that most races will be "relatively close" to their prior round maximum. Elves get an additional bit of uniqueness by that small speed boost.

Good point but then they should reduce the speed of the slow races too by the same reasoning. But Dwarves still have 20 speed which nets then 60' when they were at 40' in PF1

So, from PF1 to PF2, Dwarves get +50%, and so do Elves, while the average speed races such as Goblins only get +25%

Gregg Reece wrote:

The Raven Black wrote:

Why put average speed from 30 to 25 instead of keeping it as is and giving the Elves 35 ?

They could even give 25 to the slow races

This way the gaps stay the same but no one loses speed

Because you're getting an extra action per turn.

So, you'll be able to move 90' as an elf, 75' as a human. Two move actions previously would have netted you 60'.

This means that most races will be "relatively close" to their prior round maximum. Elves get an additional bit of uniqueness by that small speed boost.

Good point but then they should reduce the speed of the slow races too by the same reasoning. But Dwarves still have 20 speed which nets then 60' when they were at 40' in PF1

So, from PF1 to PF2, Dwarves get +50%, and so do Elves, while the average speed races such as Goblins only get +25%

We'll see tomorrow what's been done with Halflings and Gnomes, but I think it's all likely related to matters of scale and simplifying movement. Now it looks like:

Which gives a bit more granularity than the old 20/30 division

I will say, that from a world-building/verisimilitude with player characters standpoint, having some members of the party matured after just 15 years of life, while others aren't considered mature until their 80's - yet apparently have the same amount of life experience, has always been a sticking point.

I approach this in my home games by standardizing the "player" races. All standard races (humans, half-X, gnomes, halflings, elves, dwarves, even some monsters like orcs and gnolls) have a similar youth period and reach adulthood at roughly the same time. Its their maximum age and adult categories that change. So, elves reach adulthood around 15-18, just like humans. The difference is that since they have such a long lifespan they have the opportunity to either focus on a single profession and become uber-masterful, or train and multiple ones becoming as masterful as a human in many different ones. Similar effects to other longer-lived races. A 50 year-old elf, dwarf, human, etc are likely to have equivalent life experiences, but an "old" elf will be much more experienced than an "old" human. Of course, YMMV.

Why reduce everybody else's movement just to make the elves feel special? You could keep everyone else's the same and boost the elf to 35. As it stands now nobody I know play a a race with low movement and they sure as he'll won't play anything but an elf now. Just seems to be more unnecessary tweaks that are also hindering other people on purpose.

Why reduce everybody else's movement just to make the elves feel special? You could keep everyone else's the same and boost the elf to 35. As it stands now nobody I know play a a race with low movement and they sure as he'll won't play anything but an elf now. Just seems to be more unnecessary tweaks that are also hindering other people on purpose.

Please make sure that you are comparing apples to apples. 3 actions per turn multiplied by 25 feet per action equals 75 feet of movement per round. Compare that to PF1 humans who can move only 60 feet per round with the dash action. Humans got a movement speed buff not a nerf. Elves just got an even bigger movement buff.

And even the slowest races in PF2 can move as far as a PF1 human did in one turn.

...they sure as he'll won't play anything but an elf now

Really?!? Are we sure this isn’t just another alarmist reaction? Seems awful close-minded to make movement rate the only factor when deciding what race/ancestry to play.

Donovan Whitten wrote:

...they sure as he'll won't play anything but an elf now

Really?!? Are we sure this isn’t just another alarmist reaction? Seems awful close-minded to make movement rate the only factor when deciding what race/ancestry to play.

While I am generally very excited about the new system and still a proponent of the ancestry system generally, I do wonder if a static HP difference which decreases in relevance as the character levels up is going to offset the clear advantage that additional speed affords as far as ancestry selection goes. Granted it won't matter for every character, but speed and vision seem like they are going to take a step up in importance for character creation at this point. All of this is dependent upon what the ancestry feats add and how many of them you get, so it is definitely early to raise a panic, but it is difficult to argue that increased speed is a raw mechanical advantage in a system that has vastly reduced the number of mechanical advantages you can get from your ancestry. If HP alone is the balance, it does not seem like a great one.

Looks interesting. I do want to see more on Elves, though. They're always my favorite Ancestry, and I'd like to see what they can gain. Especially stuff that makes them good at being Druids or Monks.

... I have just read the teaser for halflings and gnomes, both of which start with 8 racial hit points and one of which gets a racial boost to Constitution. This makes me exceedingly unhappy with the elves getting a meagre 6 racial hit points (on top of the expected racial penalty to Constitution).

From the look of things so far, elves with warrior-type classes are going to be exceedingly penalised in relation to hit points at first level in comparison with the other races, and will never be able to catch up - particularly if they also have to work on boosting Strength and Dexterity.

This way of dealing with race, class, and hit points is starting to look bad to me, and might be the deal-breaker that keeps me out of PF2. (On the other hand, I have so much PF1 material that I probably don't need PF2.)

... I have just read the teaser for halflings and gnomes, both of which start with 8 racial hit points and one of which gets a racial boost to Constitution. This makes me exceedingly unhappy with the elves getting a meagre 6 racial hit points (on top of the expected racial penalty to Constitution).

From the look of things so far, elves with warrior-type classes are going to be exceedingly penalised in relation to hit points at first level in comparison with the other races, and will never be able to catch up - particularly if they also have to work on boosting Strength and Dexterity.

This way of dealing with race, class, and hit points is starting to look bad to me, and might be the deal-breaker that keeps me out of PF2. (On the other hand, I have so much PF1 material that I probably don't need PF2.)

They'll have 3 fewer hit points. And they can spend their floating boost to negate their Constitution penalty and reduce that to 2 fewer hit points, too, which is a solid move if you want to play a frontline warrior. You're talking about an average Elven Fighter having 16 hit points, vs. an average Human Fighter having 18. That's not exactly "exceedingly penalized".

Bellona wrote:

... I have just read the teaser for halflings and gnomes, both of which start with 8 racial hit points and one of which gets a racial boost to Constitution. This makes me exceedingly unhappy with the elves getting a meagre 6 racial hit points (on top of the expected racial penalty to Constitution).

From the look of things so far, elves with warrior-type classes are going to be exceedingly penalised in relation to hit points at first level in comparison with the other races, and will never be able to catch up - particularly if they also have to work on boosting Strength and Dexterity.

This way of dealing with race, class, and hit points is starting to look bad to me, and might be the deal-breaker that keeps me out of PF2. (On the other hand, I have so much PF1 material that I probably don't need PF2.)

They'll have 3 fewer hit points. And they can spend their floating boost to negate their Constitution penalty and reduce that to 2 fewer hit points, too, which is a solid move if you want to play a frontline warrior. You're talking about an average Elven Fighter having 16 hit points, vs. an average Human Fighter having 18. That's not exactly "exceedingly penalized".

There will probably be a feat like toughness to help narrow the gap also.

Here is the influence of Shadow of the Demon Lord. I have been looking for it~ (for the uninitiated: SotDL also gives starting stat arrays straight out of race)

I am still hoping that the "experimental" archetype system is also going to be borrowed from SotDL.

Thanks for all the lively discussion so far in this thread. At this time we've decided to close up the blog discussion thread. If you have comments, questions or other things you want to post that do not fit into any currently open threads, you are welcome to start a new thread. Thanks!