Goblins!

Monday, April 2, 2018

Ever since the goblin song from page 12 of 2007's Pathfinder Adventure Path #1: Burnt Offerings, goblins have been a key part of what makes Pathfinder recognizable as Pathfinder. When we first started looking at what would become the ancestries in the Pathfinder Playtest Rulebook, we knew that we wanted to add something to the mix, to broaden the horizon of what it meant to be a hero in Pathfinder. That naturally brought us to goblins.

The trick was finding a way to let you play a goblin who has the feel of a Pathfinder goblin, but who is also a little bit softer around the edges—a character who has a reason to work with a group of "longshanks," as opposed to trying to light them on fire at the first opportunity. Let's look at an excerpt from the goblin ancestry to find out a bit more.

Illustration by Wayne Reynolds

As a people, goblins have spent millennia feared, maligned, and even hunted—and sometimes for understandable reasons, as some rural goblin tribes still often direct cruelty, raiding, and mayhem toward wandering or vulnerable creatures. In recent decades, however, a new sort of hero has emerged from among these rough-and-tumble tribes. Such goblins bear the same oversized heads, pointed ears, red eyes, and jagged teeth of their crueler kin, but they have a noble or savvy streak that other goblins can't even imagine, let alone understand. These erstwhile heroes roam Golarion, often maintaining their distinctive cultural habits while spreading the enthusiasm, inscrutable quirkiness, love of puns and song, and unique mirth that mark goblin adventurers.

Despite breaking from their destructive past, goblin adventurers often subtly perpetuate some of the qualities that have been characteristics of the creatures for millennia. They tend to flock to strong leaders, and fiercely protect those companions who have protected them from physical harm or who offer a sympathetic ear and sage advice when they learn of the goblins' woes. Some goblins remain deeply fascinated with fire, or fearlessly devour meals that might turn others' stomachs. Others are inveterate tinkerers and view their companions' trash as components of gadgets yet to be made. Occasionally, fellow adventurers find these proclivities unsettling or odd, but more often than not goblins' friends consider these qualities endearing.

The entry in the Pathfinder Playtest Rulebook has plenty more to say on the topic, but that should give you a sense of where we are taking Pathfinder's favorite troublemakers.

In addition to the story behind the goblin, its ancestry entry has a lot of other information as well to help you make a goblin player character. It includes the base goblin ability boosts (Dexterity and Charisma), ability flaw (Wisdom), bonus Hit Points (6), base speed (25 feet), and starting languages (Common and Goblin), as well as the rules for darkvision (an ability that lets goblins see in the dark just as well as they can see in normal light). Those are just the basics—the rules shared by all goblins. Beyond that, your goblin's unique ancestry allows you to choose one ability score other than Dexterity or Charisma to receive a boost. Perhaps you have some hobgoblin blood and have an additional boost to Constitution, or you descend from a long line of goblin alchemists and have a boost to Intelligence. You could even gain a boost in Wisdom to negate your flaw!

Then you get into the goblin ancestry feats, which allow you to decide what type of goblin you want to play. Starting off, let's look at Burn It. This feat gives you a bonus to damage whenever you cast a fire spell or deal fire damage with an alchemical item. On top of that, it also increases any persistent fire damage you deal by 1. Goblins still love watching things burn.

Next up is one of my favorites, Junk Tinkerer. A goblin with this feat can craft ordinary items and weapons out of junk and scrap they can find almost anywhere. Sure, the items are of poor quality and break easily, but you will never be without a weapon if you have this feat.

We could not have goblins in the game without adding the Razor Teeth feat. This grants you an attack with your mouthful of razor-sharp teeth that deals 1d6 piercing damage. To be honest, the target of your attack should probably also attempt a Fortitude save against whatever you ate last night that is still stuck between your teeth, but we'll leave that for the GM to decide.

Finally, there is the appropriately named feat Very Sneaky. This lets you move 5 feet farther when you take an action to sneak (which normally lets you move at only half your normal speed) and potentially renders your target flat-footed against a follow-up strike!

There are plenty of other goblin feats for you to choose from, but that's all we have time for today. Come back on Friday when we'll look at some of the feats from the other ancestries in the game!

Jason Bulmahn
Director of Game Design

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Tags: Pathfinder Playtest Wayne Reynolds
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Remy P Gilbeau wrote:
but then of course my stupid brain has to start poking at me, "Hey. Hey. I know you juuuust finished saying a thing... but wouldn't this idea here be a fun character to play?" G$! d$&n it brain.

I feel like this is specifically why they aren't really going to take feedback RE: Goblins in PF2 until the actual playtest happens. Since "actual problems that crop up in the course of play" are much more persuasive than "theoretical problems which might crop up." If you have one or two in your playtest games and they cause issues for the GM or the players- say so. If you have goblins in your playtest games and they don't cause problems- say so.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Paladinosaur wrote:

So, someone asked if goblins did indeed eat babys or it was just a song.

Well, in Burnt Offerings, a starving one tries to eat a boy alive. He then kills the boy's father and eats him.

That goblin was starving for days, trapped because he was afraid of the family dog, and desperate.


PossibleCabbage wrote:
Remy P Gilbeau wrote:
but then of course my stupid brain has to start poking at me, "Hey. Hey. I know you juuuust finished saying a thing... but wouldn't this idea here be a fun character to play?" G$! d$&n it brain.
I feel like this is specifically why they aren't really going to take feedback RE: Goblins in PF2 until the actual playtest happens. Since "actual problems that crop up in the course of play" are much more persuasive than "theoretical problems which might crop up." If you have one or two in your playtest games and they cause issues for the GM or the players- say so. If you have goblins in your playtest games and they don't cause problems- say so.

This, for all my worries and doom and gloom postings at times, I can actually agree with. My own experiences with PFS say it'll be a train wreck, but not every table is going to be the same as mine. We'll see what happens when the surveys go out, and how home tables adjust.

Second Seekers (Roheas)

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DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:
Paladinosaur wrote:

So, someone asked if goblins did indeed eat babys or it was just a song.

Well, in Burnt Offerings, a starving one tries to eat a boy alive. He then kills the boy's father and eats him.
That goblin was starving for days, trapped because he was afraid of the family dog, and desperate.

Literally on Page 2 of "We Be Goblins" features the licktoads song threatening to turn babies into jam.

Literally Page 2.

Even Jason is admitting this is going to be a process and that goblins aren't CURRENTLY PC material without some slow changes.


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I have read through every page so far, (my poor brain), and have made a deliberate choice not to respond to comments, (wisely, I believe). Suffice to say, I welcome this decision as I see roleplay opportunities in it rather than problems; please put me down in the pro-Goblin camp when trying to filter out the vitriol.


eddv wrote:

Literally on Page 2 of "We Be Goblins" features the licktoads song threatening to turn babies into jam.

Literally Page 2.

Anyone else read this in Jeremy Clarkson's voice?


BENSLAYER wrote:
I have read through every page so far, (my poor brain), and have made a deliberate choice not to respond to comments, (wisely, I believe). Suffice to say, I welcome this decision as I see roleplay opportunities in it rather than problems; please put me down in the pro-Goblin camp when trying to filter out the vitriol.

Just respond to a post or two.


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Serum wrote:
The Great Troll King wrote:

Loving goblins as a playable race. Lots of opportunities for fun roleplay.

We befriended a huge tribe of goblins in the Reign of Winter AP. A blast working with those little maniacs. They were just trying to survive; we helped them survive by providing them with better tools and weapons. They enthusiastically and suicidally fought with us against winter wolves and ice trolls, both of whom viewed them as food. We went from the enemy of my enemy is my friend to us actually being friends once they realized trade with the Ulfen settlements was in their best interests.

You went off script in an interesting way! I imagine this happened around level 5-6?

Yes, I believe that's right. It all started when we caught a goblin rummaging through our stuff at night. We questioned him, and since we weren't going to murder him in cold blood, we fed him and sent him on his way. We had a shapechanger follow him to make sure he wasn't going to set up an ambush. Later we ran across his tribe migrating and we weren't going to kill a bunch of baby gobbies, so we decided not to kill one another. My barbarian had a ton of cold iron arrowheads and a pretty good weapons crafting score, and traded them new goblin sized cold iron tipped Spears in exchange for covering our backtrail. Word got around and from then on, most of the goblins were friendly. Didn't take much to help them happy. After a big battle, my barbarian got drunk with them and played toss the goblin. They thought that was AWESOME.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Actually someone did find a panel of a goblin eating a baby in a goblin comic. I’m happy to eat my hat about that one.

However, as an adventuring goblin, don’t do that. You’re meant to be atypical for your ancestry anyway :-)

Second Seekers (Roheas)

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I think it's that anyone that was around for the "every third player is a rebellious chaotic good drow" moment basically doesn't want anything to do with that story.


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Okay. I'm feeling guilty now. In every other Blog post, we've had interaction with the Creators but this time they're bunkered down and keeping their heads low because they don't want to get them chewed off.

So I'm going to try and draw this conversation onto a more constructive tangent (it's in my name and job description boys and girls, I'm allowed) and ask some game-related questions.

First: Are the Ancestry Feats going to improve over time - for instance the Bite Feat end up doing more damage at higher levels, or the Sneak Feat eventually adding 10 feet to the Sneak (or even allow a full move)?

Second: Are there going to be tiered Ancestry Feats - for instance, you start with say Junk Tinkerer and then you could take Junk Crafter to create more potent forms of items out of junk that Tinkerer wouldn't allow?

Third: Why did you choose Wisdom instead of Strength as the Stat Flaw, and why give Goblins a bonus to Charisma instead of Intelligence (seeing that in essence Goblins are getting a +4 net shift in Charisma as a result)?

Fourth: Will other Ancestries get some level of bonus hit points? (It seems almost like this is to help reduce the vulnerability of 1st level characters which is quite handy to be honest... and one reason why I always start people off at 2nd level.)

Fifth: How set in stone are you with existing Ancestries, seeing a number of people have suggested Half-Breed to encompass half-orcs and half-elves (and also Aasimar and Tieflings) and this actually sounds like a very good idea you might consider enacting?

Anyway, I'm sorry for the less-than-positive reactions a number of us have had. I know you guys have put a lot of your heart into this and were hoping we'd all be as enthused as you... only to have folk pull out pitchforks and torches (though with goblins involved, fire was to be expected!). And I know many of us look forward to your next Pathfinder Blog Update. :)


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So regarding the "doesn't fit with lore" argument, what if in 4218 AR a goblin passes the test of the Starstone, and it turns out that goblin had a good alignment (let's say NG to split the distance between Cayden and Iomedae).

A goblin attempting the test isn't really news, since all kinds of people get themselves killed doing this all the time. But no one has passed it in ~900 years, so it would be major news if someone passes it, but it's still just "one person being awesome" so it's not a major change. "One Goblin is Neutral Good" and "One Goblin is awesome" are both plausible things, so...

But as soon as that happens, a lot of people's eyes are going to be opened. Both people who now have reason to reconsider how goblins are, since one of them literally just achieved apotheosis, and also goblins who may have a new role model to emulate.

I mean, if the intention is for Goblins to be in the core rulebook, it's probable that there should be a good aligned deity which is goblin-oriented added somewhere along the line.


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Tangent101 wrote:

Okay. I'm feeling guilty now. In every other Blog post, we've had interaction with the Creators but this time they're bunkered down and keeping their heads low because they don't want to get them chewed off.

So I'm going to try and draw this conversation onto a more constructive tangent (it's in my name and job description boys and girls, I'm allowed) and ask some game-related questions.

First: Are the Ancestry Feats going to improve over time - for instance the Bite Feat end up doing more damage at higher levels, or the Sneak Feat eventually adding 10 feet to the Sneak (or even allow a full move)?

Second: Are there going to be tiered Ancestry Feats - for instance, you start with say Junk Tinkerer and then you could take Junk Crafter to create more potent forms of items out of junk that Tinkerer wouldn't allow?

Third: Why did you choose Wisdom instead of Strength as the Stat Flaw, and why give Goblins a bonus to Charisma instead of Intelligence (seeing that in essence Goblins are getting a +4 net shift in Charisma as a result)?

Fourth: Will other Ancestries get some level of bonus hit points? (It seems almost like this is to help reduce the vulnerability of 1st level characters which is quite handy to be honest... and one reason why I always start people off at 2nd level.)

Fifth: How set in stone are you with existing Ancestries, seeing a number of people have suggested Half-Breed to encompass half-orcs and half-elves (and also Aasimar and Tieflings) and this actually sounds like a very good idea you might consider enacting?

Anyway, I'm sorry for the less-than-positive reactions a number of us have had. I know you guys have put a lot of your heart into this and were hoping we'd all be as enthused as you... only to have folk pull out pitchforks and torches (though with goblins involved, fire was to be expected!). And I know many of us look forward to your next Pathfinder Blog Update. :)

This is both valuable and positive. Nice.


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eddv wrote:
I think it's that anyone that was around for the "every third player is a rebellious chaotic good drow" moment basically doesn't want anything to do with that story.

Me being a grumpy old man isn't everything. Jason presenting goblins as a chance to explore that option is bizarre. There are so many options for that story precisely because of just how popular it is. Why was this presented as a reason for Goblins to be a core race? Why is it not a reason for other core race changes?

Silver Crusade

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PossibleCabbage wrote:

So regarding the "doesn't fit with lore" argument, what if in 4218 AR a goblin passes the test of the Starstone, and it turns out that goblin had a good alignment (let's say NG to split the distance between Cayden and Iomedae).

A goblin attempting the test isn't really news, since all kinds of people get themselves killed doing this all the time. But no one has passed it in ~900 years, so it would be major news if someone passes it, but it's still just "one person being awesome" so it's not a major change. "One goblin is Neutral Good" and "One Goblin is awesome" are both plausible things, so...

But as soon as that happens, a lot of people's eyes are going to be opened. Both people who now have reason to reconsider how goblins are, since one of them literally just achieves apotheosis, and also goblins who may have a new role model to emulate.

I mean, if the intention is for Goblins to be in the core rulebook, it's probable that there should be a good aligned deity which is goblin-oriented added somewhere along the line.

I desperately hope this happens, but the hand wavy explanations in this blog post make me think that paizo doesn't intend to do anything like this. They've actually said that there will be no great magical explanation for why goblins have a better reputation.

They have a chance to prove me wrong and do something adequate, but it had better be impressive if it's going to be sufficient.


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ThePuppyTurtle wrote:

I desperately hope this happens, but the hand wavy explanations in this blog post make me think that paizo doesn't intend to do anything like this. They've actually said that there will be no great magical explanation for why goblins have a better reputation.

They have a chance to prove me wrong and do something adequate, but it had better be impressive if it's going to be sufficient.

I feel like "a good aligned Goblin achieves apotheosis" isn't a great magical explanation for why all goblins are good now. A lot of goblins are going to stick with Lamashtu and their evil hero gods and with a way of life that is working for them, perhaps even the overwhelming majority.

It's just that now every goblin everywhere has tangible proof that there's another path available to them, and even if it's really hard some of them are going to take it. It's also likely to make a lot of people reconsider an "attack on sight" goblin policy.


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PossibleCabbage wrote:

So regarding the "doesn't fit with lore" argument, what if in 4218 AR a goblin passes the test of the Starstone, and it turns out that goblin had a good alignment (let's say NG to split the distance between Cayden and Iomedae).

A goblin attempting the test isn't really news, since all kinds of people get themselves killed doing this all the time. But no one has passed it in ~900 years, so it would be major news if someone passes it, but it's still just "one person being awesome" so it's not a major change.

But as soon as that happens, a lot of people's eyes are going to be opened. Both people who now have reason to reconsider how goblins are, since one of them literally just achieves apotheosis, and also goblins who may have a new role model to emulate.

I mean, if the intention is for Goblins to be in the core rulebook, it's probable that there should be a good aligned deity which is goblin-oriented added somewhere along the line.

What do you think handwavium is? This is a magical world with gods. They can make up anything they want as an excuse. The gods could have handed out memos to make it happen. Or a character legally distinct from Spock went back and changed the timeline. Everything is mostly the same except Goblins are a core race now. It doesn't matter. It goes against the overwhelming majority of published material. People can point to the handful of exceptions all that they like. Goblins going from murder monkeys to core race is a face heel turn. And while everyone is pointing, anyone can point to the plethora of other examples for other races to be core.

And none of it changes the fact that peoples reactions haven't exactly been "about time". This does not feel to be an organic change. This feels like a mascot being pushed.


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PossibleCabbage wrote:
ThePuppyTurtle wrote:

I desperately hope this happens, but the hand wavy explanations in this blog post make me think that paizo doesn't intend to do anything like this. They've actually said that there will be no great magical explanation for why goblins have a better reputation.

They have a chance to prove me wrong and do something adequate, but it had better be impressive if it's going to be sufficient.

I feel like "a good aligned Goblin achieves apotheosis" isn't a great magical explanation for why all goblins are good now. A lot of goblins are going to stick with Lamashtu and their evil hero gods and with a way of life that is working for them, perhaps even the overwhelming majority.

It's just that now every goblin everywhere has tangible proof that there's another path available to them, and even if it's really hard some of them are going to take it. It's also likely to make a lot of people reconsider an "attack on sight" goblin policy.

In rural Ustalav people barely have moved beyond an "attack on sight" toward arcane spellcasters. I suspect a long term evil pest race requires a bit more for "most people" to reconsider it.


Fred Strauss 418 wrote:
They've always been a chaotic race as well, another strike against them. Wondering why they don't get a -2 to strength. I just can't picture a 18 Str Goblin and it seems so wrong.

While playing Burnt Offerings, we had a Goblin curbstomp our Dwarven Barb with some great rolls, including a crit. After the Goblin put him down, our Tetori grappled the Goblin and we captured him. The Dwarf lived in case anybody cares.

The playgroup had such a great reaction to that encounter that the Goblin became a mascot and rotating extra PC. After the expected comedy montage to acclimate him into being an adventurer, I believe he ended up with an 18 str once he joined the group and received PC stats.

Liberty's Edge

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Put me in the camp that wants a decent explanation for goblin adventurers. I don't want this to be pathfinders version of the klingon, with people coming back to the game after a couple years and asking:
"Oh hey, goblins are one of the Core PC races now? What happened to the race that made them all become adventurers?"

"...we don't like to talk about that....."


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Corrik wrote:
This feels like a mascot being pushed.

So, a company decides that they want to include their mascot in the next version of their game.

What's the problem with them doing that? It's their company. It's their mascot.

They think this will help them achieve a bigger market for their product.

What part of that are you upset by?


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Corrik wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:

So regarding the "doesn't fit with lore" argument, what if in 4218 AR a goblin passes the test of the Starstone, and it turns out that goblin had a good alignment (let's say NG to split the distance between Cayden and Iomedae).

A goblin attempting the test isn't really news, since all kinds of people get themselves killed doing this all the time. But no one has passed it in ~900 years, so it would be major news if someone passes it, but it's still just "one person being awesome" so it's not a major change.

But as soon as that happens, a lot of people's eyes are going to be opened. Both people who now have reason to reconsider how goblins are, since one of them literally just achieves apotheosis, and also goblins who may have a new role model to emulate.

I mean, if the intention is for Goblins to be in the core rulebook, it's probable that there should be a good aligned deity which is goblin-oriented added somewhere along the line.

What do you think handwavium is? This is a magical world with gods. They can make up anything they want as an excuse. The gods could have handed out memos to make it happen. Or a character legally distinct from Spock went back and changed the timeline. Everything is mostly the same except Goblins are a core race now. It doesn't matter. It goes against the overwhelming majority of published material. People can point to the handful of exceptions all that they like. Goblins going from murder monkeys to core race is a face heel turn. And while everyone is pointing, anyone can point to the plethora of other examples for other races to be core.

And none of it changes the fact that peoples reactions haven't exactly been "about time". This does not feel to be an organic change. This feels like a mascot being pushed.

It's 'heel-face turn', incidentally.

EDIT: And to make this post more substantial, the way you're invoking 'handwavium' here seems somewhat tautological. You seem to be indicating that there *can* exist no narrative justification, even given the space of a decade plus in-universe, because the justification occurs to createthe end result., rather than arising 'organically'. That is, of course, fundamentally how stories work...

My reaction hasn't been 'about time' simply because this is nothing new to me. As you have so often stated, I could already play a goblin, and there is no fundamental difference between the rules for playing one being in the Player's Handbook or the Bestiary.


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CrystalSeas wrote:
Corrik wrote:
This feels like a mascot being pushed.

So, a company decides that they want to include their mascot in the next version of their game.

What's the problem with them doing that? It's their company. It's their mascot.

They think this will help them achieve a bigger market for their product.

What part of that are you upset by?

The part where it impacts the lore.


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Corrik wrote:
The part where it impacts the lore.

Lore is whatever Paizo says it is. They hold all the intellectual property rights to their stories.

So if they say the story is moving forward in a different direction, that's the new lore. It's their story, they get to tell it the way they want to.

Silver Crusade Contributor

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I gotta say, the arguments here have really brought me around to goblins as a Core ancestry. Thank you for that.

On an unrelated note, I really hope that all of the "half-human" peoples - geniekin, aasimar/tieflings, dhampir, changelings - remain separate and distinct ancestries. Grinding them up as mere human subgroups really doesn't feel interesting to me.


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I wonder if Goblins will still be skilled at riding animals.


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Nothing anybody has ever said about "handwavium" has ever been convincing in the history of the term.

I mean, on its face it's a pejorative poisoning of the well that "these narrative justifications are not ones I accept." It basically makes it clear that the complaint isn't worth listening to since you're not acting in good faith.


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PossibleCabbage wrote:

Nothing anybody has ever said about "handwavium" has ever been convincing in the history of the term.

I mean, on its face it's a pejorative poisoning of the well that "these narrative justifications are not ones I accept."

No, it's saying that "oh, a god didn't" after the fact isn't really a valid answer. Gods handing out post cards isn't a eureka "ohh, well that explains everything". It's an excuse to explain a decision. It could be talking whales from the psychic whale plane.


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Corrik wrote:
isn't really a valid answer.

sure it is. "Valid" is whatever Paizo says happened.


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If you cannot imagine literally any narrative justification that you would accept for why and how a fictional world came to be different from how it was- what you have is a crisis of imagination.


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I don't see how adding goblins to Core changes the lore. Paizo has been working up to this for years. Fans have been wanting more goblins for years. It's not like the entire goblin race is suddenly going to become sweet and fluffy. They belong with the core races. It makes sense.

I was on the fence originally, but the arguments on this thread have convinced me it's a good idea, or at least worth a shot.


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Feros wrote:
I am seriously stunned by this thread. People are talking AT each other rather than TO each other. Some are trying to listen and respond on both sides of the fence, but even they seem to missing the point the other is trying to make or are having their counter arguments ignored, misunderstood, or misconstrued. I hate threads like this. They add nothing to the game, are not helpful in the least, and crank quite a few of those involved up to accomplish, what? To give the Paizo staff a headache moderating it and trying to keep the conversation civil instead of their regular jobs.

It doesn't feel like much of a conversation, yeah. Responses definitely favour back-and-forth between people who offended someone on one side or the other (either by being offensive, or just for having different preferences) more than having a discussion. As you said, lots of talking at each other.

Mostly, I don't expect to convince anyone. I've gotten a few favourites on things posted, but those are likely all people who already agreed with whatever I said before I said it, so eh.

At this point I'm just here to be a pro-goblin presence. There's so much anti-goblin sentiment here that I basically just hope folks at Paizo see one more person here who is cool with the direction they're going, and hopes it goes well.

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