Gods of Starfinder, Part Two

There's also this line,

Quote:

Damoritosh is a harsh deity, with no concern for freedom or comfort.

Gorum wants you to fight, Damoritosh doesn't give you a choice.

That's a good way to put it. Gorum's a cheerleader that wants to see her team kick some ass and be awesome. Damoritosh's a fascist that demands you go fight in the trenches for your people's racial or national glory.

$10 says that Lamashtu was the deity that Besmara trashed during the Gap.

It would fantastic if goblins and gnolls have largely switched their deific allegiance to a CN space pirate goddess.

I'm extremely disappointed that Nocticula didn't make the cut, what with all the foreshadowing and hinting that she's trying to ascend.

Well, Nocticula and her ascension are kind of a James Jacobs thing. As he's not working on Starfinder, someone probably decided it would be best if her ascension happened in something he wrote.

Jeramiahh wrote:

I'm extremely disappointed that Nocticula didn't make the cut, what with all the foreshadowing and hinting that she's trying to ascend.

Well, Nocticula and her ascension are kind of a James Jacobs thing. As he's not working on Starfinder, someone probably decided it would be best if her ascension happened in something he wrote.

Gods and Demon Lords have a much longer concept of time than mortals. Maybe Nocticula's ascension can be will be a Starfinder AP?

Edit: We already have Triune. What if Shelyn, Calistria, and Nocticula were three goddesses working together, receiving worship both individually and as a whole?

TheGoofyGE3K wrote:

Piracy is primarily selfish though. I do whatever I have to do for myself, take what I want, and do what I want.

Including blowing holes in ships traveling in hard vacuum because you wanted the stuff they had.

Quote:

Damoritosh is about conquering and oppression and imposing your will on people.

Piracy in its armed form is all about conquering (one ship at a time) and oppression (those people didn't want you to mess with them) and imposing your will on people.

The best thing about all of this is that you are all arguing about what pirates were. Sure, we are going to have space pirates, see First Contact, that want to board your vessel and steal your stuff... maybe even sell you to the highest bidder. Certainly evil.

You might also have the guy that hacks the sphere and steals the plans for a new miracle drug that was going to be sold at 10,000% profit by corrupt members of Abdarcorp, effectively distributing thus new wonder drug across the galaxy. Or the guy that films a movie in a theater just to distribute for fun, also considered an act of piracy today.

Don't think of just the origin of the word, in a future full of tech think about what it means now. A movie just showed on Absolom Station, how long does it take to reach The Far?

MythicFox wrote:

Jeramiahh wrote:

I'm extremely disappointed that Nocticula didn't make the cut, what with all the foreshadowing and hinting that she's trying to ascend.

Well, Nocticula and her ascension are kind of a James Jacobs thing. As he's not working on Starfinder, someone probably decided it would be best if her ascension happened in something he wrote.

Gods and Demon Lords have a much longer concept of time than mortals. Maybe Nocticula's ascension can be will be a Starfinder AP?

Edit: We already have Triune. What if Shelyn, Calistria, and Nocticula were three goddesses working together, receiving worship both individually and as a whole?

I don't know. Calistria and Nocticula fusing together is one thing but Shelyn seems way to good for them. Now Arshea, Shelyn and maybe Erastil all coming together to become a Good-aligned deity of romantic, familial, and brotherly/sisterly love could be neat.

Besmara

CN goddess of piracy, space monsters, and strife
Once a minor nautical deity, Besmara seized her current power and position as her prize when she deposed another deity in a daring raid during the Gap.

I'm slightly confused about this. It's probably just because I haven't had a chance to read the book and learn more about the Gap, but my understanding was that no mortal knows what happened during the Gap and the gods don't talk about it.

If that's the case, how would we know about Besmara's deposition of another deity during that time? Did she tell her followers? If so, that seems to contradict the idea that the gods don't talk about the Gap. Is the idea that religious scholars have just pieced things together?

Blog wrote:

Besmara

CN goddess of piracy, space monsters, and strife
Once a minor nautical deity, Besmara seized her current power and position as her prize when she deposed another deity in a daring raid during the Gap.

I'm slightly confused about this. It's probably just because I haven't had a chance to read the book and learn more about the Gap, but my understanding was that no mortal knows what happened during the Gap and the gods don't talk about it.

If that's the case, how would we know about Besmara's deposition of another deity during that time? Did she tell her followers? If so, that seems to contradict the idea that the gods don't talk about the Gap. Is the idea that religious scholars have just pieced things together?

Possibly the latter. She could have some trophy of some sort that belonged to another Deity and no one has been able to contact that Deity or something?

Could also be that the blog (and book) are telling us GMs/Players things that in-game people and deities don't know.

Voss wrote:

John Kretzer wrote:

Overall in Chaotic faiths you will see more interpretations of the faith than say Lawful faiths.

I disagree with that, actually. Chaotic types are unlikely to worry about semantics or hairsplitting interpretative details.

They aren't likely to tolerate a five day seminar on 'What did Abadar mean by 'blessed are the cheesemakers,' they just want to get on eating the cheese already.

Is that not what I said...?

No. You said Chaotic faiths have more interpretations of faith than Lawful faiths.

My point was lawful types will happily sit around creating interpretations and having semantic debates. Chaotic types will simply stick to 'cheese is good to eat.' Thats a lot fewer interpretations. Exponentially fewer, in fact.

Delightful wrote:

$10 says that Lamashtu was the deity that Besmara trashed during the Gap.

It would fantastic if goblins and gnolls have largely switched their deific allegiance to a CN space pirate goddess.

We goblins wit Kaptain-Boss-Lady Besmy now! Mommy Lamashy got pushed out the air-thingey.

John Kretzer wrote:

Voss wrote:

John Kretzer wrote:

Overall in Chaotic faiths you will see more interpretations of the faith than say Lawful faiths.

I disagree with that, actually. Chaotic types are unlikely to worry about semantics or hairsplitting interpretative details.

They aren't likely to tolerate a five day seminar on 'What did Abadar mean by 'blessed are the cheesemakers,' they just want to get on eating the cheese already.

Is that not what I said...?

No. You said Chaotic faiths have more interpretations of faith than Lawful faiths.

My point was lawful types will happily sit around creating interpretations and having semantic debates. Chaotic types will simply stick to 'cheese is good to eat.' Thats a lot fewer interpretations. Exponentially fewer, in fact.

Actually it'd be the opposite. If Chaotic picks their own personal interpretation and goes with it then there's an infinite number of interpretations, as opposed to the Lawful's debating and narrowing it down to a "correct" interpretation.

...

Do churches of Abadar have messageboards that connect to Axis where they go and FAQ request his commandments to make sure they're interpreting it correctly?

...

Do churches of Abadar have messageboards that connect to Axis where they go and FAQ request his commandments to make sure they're interpreting it correctly?

Yeah they do but no one uses them much because Abadar demands several million credits for each straight answer given. Abadarites being cheap as they are usually just decide to wing it whenever they don't know how to interpret something...

Probably explains all those intergalactic economic recessions and stock market crashes.

Rysky wrote:

...

Do churches of Abadar have messageboards that connect to Axis where they go and FAQ request his commandments to make sure they're interpreting it correctly?

Yeah they do but no one uses them much because Abadar demands several million credits for each straight answer given. Abadarites being cheap as they are usually just decide to wing it whenever they don't know how interpret something...

Probably explains all those intergalactic economic recessions and stock market crashes.

*nods*

Some thoughts on a couple of topics in this thread:

Damoritosh as LE makes quite a bit of sense to me. He's not just a deity of war, violence, etc. Gorum is. Gorum doesn't care who his followers fight, even if it's each other, as long as they fight. Damoritosh has some very particular thoughts on who you fight. Damoritosh wants you to conquer. That means going out and fighting as a unit against nonbelievers. That means destroying pastoral, peaceful civilizations, breaking them and remaking them into faithful conquerors like yourselves. It means doing the same to horrible, oppressive tyrannies. Damoritosh cares nothing for the form or beliefs of the society, only that you conquer it. That's not a Good idea. That's not even really a Neutral idea. Conquering a people who don't want to be like you, taking their gods and society from them and making them over in your own image is pretty much enslaving them.

Besmara, and pirates in general, as Neutral I can see. IRL, many if not most pirates are a pretty evil lot. But it's also easy to see there being shipborne Robin Hoods out there. Even IRL, many pirates were fleeing oppressive regimes and corrupt justice systems, looking for a place where they could live how they wanted. If "live how they wanted" meant taking shipfuls of the king's gold (which he'sd forced indigenous peoples to mine) and spending it on booze and wenches, so much the better. Besmara doesn't necessarily have to be aligned with most pirates. In fact, being Neutral means she can find worshippers among the terrors of the seas and the Robin Hoods. For exampl, perhaps the most well known pirate in Pathfinder is Torius Vin, protagonist of a trio of Pathfinder Tales novels. Now, he worships Gozreh, but he paints a pretty good picture of a pirate who isn't evil. He cons a conman, he rescues a Twilight Talon from slavers, he goes undercover to foil a Chelaxian plot. Now, amidst all this he joins the Twilight Talons himself and becomes more of a privateer, but even before that he tries to keep casualties to a minimum, doesn't take or sell slaves, doesn't deal in Pesh, etc. Is he the norm? No. But he doesn't need to be. He just needs to prove, by his existence, that non-evil pirates exist in Pathfinder.

You might also have the guy that hacks the sphere and steals the plans for a new miracle drug that was going to be sold at 10,000% profit by corrupt members of Abdarcorp, effectively distributing thus new wonder drug across the galaxy.

And again, that guy probably worships Desna or Weydan.

Just because "not all pirates are evil" is no excuse. Lao Shu Po is evil, and the same argument could be applied to literally her entire area of concern ("but THIS assassin is on our side!", to say nothing of rats...)

Or the guy that films a movie in a theater just to distribute for fun, also considered an act of piracy today.

Don't think of just the origin of the word, in a future full of tech think about what it means now.

Considering Our Lady of the Tricorne Hat has religious practices involving hurling captured loot over the side of a ship in PF, losing sight of the piracy she has always embodied is revisionist as hell.

As others have said, she's clearly the god of Disney pirates.

Kiln Norn wrote:

You might also have the guy that hacks the sphere and steals the plans for a new miracle drug that was going to be sold at 10,000% profit by corrupt members of Abdarcorp, effectively distributing thus new wonder drug across the galaxy.

And again, that guy probably worships Desna or Weydan.

Just because "not all pirates are evil" is no excuse. Lao Shu Po is evil, and the same argument could be applied to literally her entire area of concern ("but THIS assassin is on our side!", to say nothing of rats...)

Quote:

Or the guy that films a movie in a theater just to distribute for fun, also considered an act of piracy today.

Don't think of just the origin of the word, in a future full of tech think about what it means now.

Considering Our Lady of the Tricorne Hat has religious practices involving hurling captured loot over the side of a ship in PF, losing sight of the piracy she has always embodied is revisionist as hell.

As others have said, she's clearly the god of Disney pirates.

No, not arguing what she is or has been. My point is that context changes. I've no doubt she's the god of the space pirates that want both you and your goods. That doesn't mean she isn't also the god of people pirating stuff off the internet. Denial of that is just short sighted. It would be like saying that a god of cheetos is only a god of cheetos as long as they are original flavor only.

Also no, it is NOTHING like "this assassins on our side." In a period of thousands of years I'm certain things have changed a bit. Adapt with the times etc. If the angels are now carrying machine guns I'm sure the gods have advanced some as well. Would you scoff at a worshiper because he's not committing grand theft spacecraft?

Considering Our Lady of the Tricorne Hat has religious practices involving hurling captured loot over the side of a ship in PF, losing sight of the piracy she has always embodied is revisionist as hell.

As others have said, she's clearly the god of Disney pirates.

Actually, to me, hacking a movie studio, stealing the digital pre-print from its servers, and massively distributing it across the Infospheres sounds DIRECTLY analogous to what you just said. :)

...or even better, stealing the movie, wiping all prints in existance with a special-purpose worm trojan,, and tossing the only copy on digital storage into the void of space...

So Space-Napster was created by a divine decree, then?

Of course not. But how many direct decrees has pathfinder seen? That isn't to say though that she would object to it. It is a very different kind of piracy but there is no reason that her domain failed to pick up on this new method while still retaining the old.

Why would Besmara have deposed Lamashtu? Would make more sense for her to have deposed some sort of space god .-.

All should worship Nyarlathotep!
...no your still doomed even if you worship him...
What do you mean why?
Pretty music?

Keep in mind that the "Core 20" deities is a statement of focus within the area we expect to be most of the focus of a campaign. It's not necessarily a declaration of cosmological importance.

If there was Blurglsplat the Staining, the slime mold god of spores, gentle inclines, and moisture, and Blurglsplat was worshiped by half of all thinking creatures in every galaxy in the universe except the one that includes the Pact Worlds, that would suggest good 'ol Blurgy is an incredibly powerful, influential, and crucial deity.

But if the pact worlds are in the only galaxy where no one has heard of the Avatar of Cool Dark Places, then Blurglsplat wouldn't be in the Core 20.

The Pathfinder Core 20 was core for Golarian, specifically the Inner Sea Region. The Pact Worlds adds the influence of dozens more species on a number of worlds, including the entire Vesharium and the kasatha on the Idari. And Golarian itself is missing, so however popular a deity's worship was there is much less influential than what's going on over at Verces, since the worshippers of Verces are still around.

Yes, it turns out Pharasma is Pharasma is Pharasma. Makes sense. But as noted, Gorum may have been a god created by a set of wars in Golarian's history. Crucial on Golarian, but not a big deal in the Verskarium. So, Damoritosh, THE Vesk deity, has a big influence on the Pact Worlds.

No reason to think anything happened to Gorum. He's just not as important on this larger, different, much later area of operations.

Why would Besmara have deposed Lamashtu? Would make more sense for her to have deposed some sort of space god .-.

Maybe she thought Desna was way too hot and nice to depose and thought no would care if Lamashtu was instead.

Why would Besmara have deposed Lamashtu?

Because she could. What more motivation does a Chaotic Neutral goddess need?

I meant what in her portfolio implies Lamashtu was god she deposed? <_< Like, Besmara got updated to space monsters from sea monsters, so makes more sense to me than she deposed some sort of space god instead of mother of the monsters and beasts

So, now we have all the 20 gods! *-* {. . .}

So, re-sorting your post by alignment grid position in Western reading order, and inserting subtotals:

Lawful Good: 2 (1 old, 1 new)

Hylax, The Forever Queen
LG goddess of diplomacy, first contact, friendship, and peace

Iomedae
LG goddess of honorable battle, humanity, justice, and valor

Neutral Good: 2 (1 old, 1 new)

Sarenrae
NG goddess of healing, redemption, and the sun

Yaraesa, Lady of Wisdom
NG goddess of knowledge, mental perfection, scholarship, and science

Chaotic Good: 2 (1 old, 1 new)

Desna
CG goddess of dreams, luck, stars, and travelers

Weydan, The Endless Horizon
CG god of discovery, equality, exploration, and freedom

Lawful Neutral: 2 (1 old, 1 new)

Abadar
LN god of civilization, commerce, law, and wealth

Talavet, The Storyteller
LN goddess of community, self-reliance, and tradition

True Neutral: 4 (1 old, 3 new)

Eloritu, The Hidden Truth
N god of history, magic, and secrets

Ibra, The Inscrutable
N god of celestial bodies, the cosmos, and mysteries of the universe

Pharasma
N goddess of birth, death, fate, and prophecy

Triune, The All-Code
N god of artificial intelligence, computers, and the Drift

Chaotic Neutral: 2 (1 old, 1 new)

Besmara
CN goddess of piracy, space monsters, and strife

Oras, Agent of Change
CN god of adaptation, evolution, and natural selection

Lawful Evil: 2 (1 old, 1 new)

Damoritosh, The Conqueror
LE god of conquest, duty, and war

Zon-Kuthon
LE god of darkness, envy, loss, and pain

Neutral Evil: 2 (2 old, 0 new)

Urgathoa
NE goddess of disease, gluttony, and undeath

Lao Shu Po
NE goddess of assassins, rats, spies, and thieves

Chaotic Evil: 2 (1 old, 1 new)

Nyarlathotep
CE Outer God of conspiracies, dangerous secrets, and forbidden magic

The Devourer, The Star-Eater
CE god of black holes, destruction, and supernovas

(End of list)

I wonder if The Devourer is actually an evolved and escaped version of Rovagug . . . .

* * * * * * * *

meant what in her portfolio implies Lamashtu was god she deposed? <_< Like, Besmara got updated to space monsters from sea monsters, so makes more sense to me than she deposed some sort of space god instead of mother of the monsters and beasts

The same reason it would make sense for AbadarCorp to have acquired DroskarCorp.

(cries in Cayden)

As a side note, I like UnArcaneElection's idea, but I also wonder if instead of an escaped Rovagug that maybe it's some fragment of it's personality, that gained its own sentience.

What if Shelyn, Calistria, and Nocticula were three goddesses working together,

I don't see THAT working...seriously, nocticula and Shelyn will not get along very well

If there are three goddesses working together it woulr be Shelyn, Desna and Sarenrae: they already have good relationships and have many common terms in their holy texts

No, not arguing what she is or has been. My point is that context changes. I've no doubt she's the god of the space pirates that want both you and your goods. That doesn't mean she isn't also the god of people pirating stuff off the internet. Denial of that is just short sighted. It would be like saying that a god of cheetos is only a god of cheetos as long as they are original flavor only.

Expecting someone who clearly favors bold action with little regard for consequences to suddenly become the patron of a schmuck sneaking a camcorder into a movie theater is far more of a stretch than you're making it out to be.

Also no, it is NOTHING like "this assassins on our side."

How is it not? You don't really address the comparison.

If Damoritosh and Lao Shu Po are evil, Besmara getting a pass makes little sense. Her portfolio is just as bad.

Would you scoff at a worshiper because he's not committing grand theft spacecraft?

... Have you read Besmara's personality profile? Because she absolutely would scoff at any soul too timid to take what they desire. Especially since this isn't the Forgotten Realms, and deity power is not pegged to number of worshipers.

My favorite thing about the deity articles is that even thousands upon thousands of years in the future, there will still be alignment arguments.

Kiln Norn wrote:

No, not arguing what she is or has been. My point is that context changes. I've no doubt she's the god of the space pirates that want both you and your goods. That doesn't mean she isn't also the god of people pirating stuff off the internet. Denial of that is just short sighted. It would be like saying that a god of cheetos is only a god of cheetos as long as they are original flavor only.

Expecting someone who clearly favors bold action with little regard for consequences to suddenly become the patron of a schmuck sneaking a camcorder into a movie theater is far more of a stretch than you're making it out to be.

Quote:

Also no, it is NOTHING like "this assassins on our side."

How is it not? You don't really address the comparison.

Assassination is a Bad Thing. So is piracy. But by your lights, the motives for the piracy can obviate the bad qualities sufficiently to make its patron nonevil. But the same holds true for targeted killings. I mean, Ragathiel, Dammerich... they're totally big on the deaths of those who "deserve" it, and they both get to wear a good alignment.

If Damoritosh and Lao Shu Po are evil, Besmara getting a pass makes little sense. Her portfolio is just as bad.

Quote:

Would you scoff at a worshiper because he's not committing grand theft spacecraft?

... Have you read Besmara's personality profile? Because she absolutely would scoff at any soul too timid to take what they desire. Especially since this isn't the Forgotten Realms, and deity power is not pegged to number of worshipers.

See, if Besmara was CE, then CG pirates couldn't worship her :P

That is only reason she is CN really xD

"Yarr! I'm Fly Or Die With Besmara!"

See, if Besmara was CE, then CG pirates couldn't worship her :P

That is only reason she is CN really xD

But... Weydan... Desna... better choices all around for itinerant good-hearted spacefarers out to stick it to the man...

Expecting someone who clearly favors bold action with little regard for consequences to suddenly become the patron of a schmuck sneaking a camcorder into a movie theater is far more of a stretch than you're making it out to be.

Again, 10,000 years can and will change some things. Also just because they may not be her favorite followers don't mean they don't claim her.

How is it not? You don't really address the comparison.

Assassination is a Bad Thing. So is piracy. But by your lights, the motives for the piracy can obviate the bad qualities sufficiently to make its patron nonevil. But the same holds true for targeted killings. I mean, Ragathiel, Dammerich... they're totally big on the deaths of those who "deserve" it, and they both get to wear a good alignment.

Well if you are going to hand me an argument sure. I'm generally saying though that just because random assassin a is fighting worth you against a specific foe had absolutely no interaction with what his alignment is.

If Damoritosh and Lao Shu Po are evil, Besmara getting a pass makes little sense. Her portfolio is just as bad.

So Robin Hood was CG. Put him on a ship instead of in a forest and suddenly pirate. Motivation and exact actions do shape the alignment of the individual. Would you consider privateers acting in response to a call from thier government as chaotic when given a lawful writ to stop certain ships and confiscate thier goods? Are they evil for playing pirate on behest of thier king and country?

... Have you read Besmara's personality profile? Because she absolutely would scoff at any soul too timid to take what they desire. Especially since this isn't the Forgotten Realms, and deity power is not pegged to number of worshipers.

When did I say anything about being timid? I said he wasn't stealing starships. If he's going after what he wants and it's just in a computer system instead of being a ship...

Also again context, stop trying to misconstrue it. I did not say -anything- about power. However you are also still wrong about that. A god in pathfinder/starfinder grows in power with worshipers. However thier influence, as well as power due to what they can have others do in thier name, does increase with every follower.

Again, 10,000 years can and will change some things.

And yet Iomedae, Desna, and the other returnees don't seem to have had their personalities appreciably altered.

Well if you are going to hand me an argument sure. I'm generally saying though that just because random assassin a is fighting worth you against a specific foe had absolutely no interaction with what his alignment is.

And the same goes for pirates. So if the action is contemptible, so is the being who embodies it.

So Robin Hood was CG. Put him on a ship instead of in a forest and suddenly pirate.

Nope.

Suddenly "Rebel Alliance Soldier."

Motivation and exact actions do shape the alignment of the individual.

And the vast sweep of the population engaging in a behavior defines its character in the wider sphere.

Would you consider privateers acting in response to a call from thier government as chaotic when given a lawful writ to stop certain ships and confiscate thier goods? Are they evil for playing pirate on behest of thier king and country?

1. Yes. Their mission is, in fact, to sow chaos upon their nation's enemies while not formally adhering to any national code. Their lawfulness begins and ends with their focus on who they victimize. Romegas was a hero to the Knights of Saint John, and an unholy slaving bogeyman to Ottoman mariners. Hayrettin Barbarossa was an exalted champion of the Sublime Porte, and "the king of evil" to the inhabitants of Emperor Charles' dominions.

2. They certainly aren't good. They're seeking to profit off of an existing conflict while not giving up anything but the chance to prey upon their own.

When did I say anything about being timid? I said he wasn't stealing starships. If he's going after what he wants and it's just in a computer system instead of being a ship...

And again, read Besmara's profile.

stop trying to misconstrue it

Misconstrue what? Your arguments are based upon reaching beyond what is established about the character of the deity and the nature of her worship in an effort to defend the alignment choice that is, so far as I can see, simply grandfathered in to let people play good-aligned pirates while still having a patron deity who rocks the Jolly Roger.

A god in pathfinder/starfinder grows in power with worshipers.

Tell that to Azathoth. Or Rovagug, for that matter. You labor under a misapprehension. More worshippers may increase a faith's temporal influence, but it has nothing to do with the power of the deity in question.

Interesting....especially Besmara's promotion.

Though I would have preferred Asmodeus over Zon-Kuthon...especially with Shelyn being absent.

But I am guessing a lot of the deities are still around just not 'Core'...are we going get a complete list beyond the Core 20?

In an infinite universe there would be an infinite number of deities, so I doubt there could ever be a "complete" list!

It's possible that the deposed deity was one unknown on Golarion. But personally, I think it has to be Lamashtu, otherwise she would have dominion over space monsters.

And yet Iomedae, Desna, and the other returnees don't seem to have had their personalities appreciably altered.

Iomedae has been fairly alerted actually. She lost Honor in favor of only Honorable Combat, which is a sodalite change. Also she lost rulership for humanity.

Desna doesn't seem to have changes but we'll see, if all of thier worship is the same thousands of years later I'd be surprised. Maybe Pharasma will remain the same.

And the vast sweep of the population engaging in a behavior defines its character in the wider sphere.

Of course, but the good is not the general behavior.

Yes. Their mission is, in fact, to sow chaos upon their nation's enemies while not formally adhering to any national code. Their lawfulness begins and ends with their focus on who they victimize. Romegas was a hero to the Knights of Saint John, and an unholy slaving bogeyman to Ottoman mariners. Hayrettin Barbarossa was an exalted champion of the Sublime Porte, and "the king of evil" to the inhabitants of Emperor Charles' dominions.

So eye of the beholder...

Tell that to Azathoth. Or Rovagug, for that matter. You labor under a misapprehension. More worshippers may increase a faith's temporal influence, but it has nothing to do with the power of the deity in question.

Influence is power. May because someone like Rovagug is either to inept or careless to use it is irrelevant. In his case specifically he also had the influence of multiple other gods working directly against his own. Just because the deities physical form does not get stronger does not mean the god did not grow in power.

Pharasma likely hasn't changed much, as long as the whole "river of souls" cosmology is intact - Birth, Death, and Afterlife are pretty constant.

Besmara is CN because that's her alignment. It may well be that the majority of her worshipers are evil. As with Damoritosh. Since most of the Vesk worship him, he no doubt has many neutral and good followers, despite being evil. Starfinder has no "one step" rule.

CorvusMask wrote:

See, if Besmara was CE, then CG pirates couldn't worship her :P

That is only reason she is CN really xD

But... Weydan... Desna... better choices all around for itinerant good-hearted spacefarers out to stick it to the man...

Yeah, but they aren't PIRATE gods because CG pirates gotta do all in PIRATEY way even if Piracy is banditry and CG bandits are basically non existent xP

(Basically, I find it as silly as you do, but pirates have fanbase unlike bandits :P)

Seriously speaking though, Good aligned fantasy pirates aren't really "pirates" per say, they are group of adventurers who adventure on seas. I don't really mind Good aligned pirates, but I think its silly to try to argue that they make sense irl piracy wise :D

I don't disagree Corvus. I've just been arguing that she may have more areas of concern now besides "I'm on a boat."

Bandits who dress in Lincoln Green, use a longbow and hang around in Sherwood forest have a fanbase.

Bandits who dress in Lincoln Green, use a longbow and hang around in Sherwood forest have a fanbase.

Ye, but those unique snowflakes have a disney moving behind them

Dick Turpin then. He has something of a fanbase, didn't even give away what he stole, and I don't think Disney have been anywhere near him. There was a 1970s British TV show, and, err, Carry on Dick.

I am finding a large number of these new gods really interesting, from a 'I could totally see someone wanting to worship this one' standpoint. Quite a few fantasy gods (and yeah, some real world mythological gods) strike me as the sort of god one might propitiate, or throw money overboard to avert their wrath, but not actually admire or revere or worship.

Of this new batch, the Devourer is the only one who strikes me that way, but I've always been biased against Chaotic Evil or nihilistic gods.

Hylax, Yaraesa and Talavet sound particularly cool, although Eloritu and Oras also have some appeal.

CorvusMask wrote:

See, if Besmara was CE, then CG pirates couldn't worship her :P

That is only reason she is CN really xD

But... Weydan... Desna... better choices all around for itinerant good-hearted spacefarers out to stick it to the man...

So? Maybe some CG players aren't interested in exploration or dreams and see the pirate life as the greatest expression of good-intended freedom against the man. You can say their wrong all you like and think they should pick a different deity, but if Besmara who they want to worship, let them.

$10 says that Lamashtu was the deity that Besmara trashed during the Gap.

My conspiracy theory is that Desna and Besmara had wild superhero team up to wreck Lamashtu.

It makes sense! Desna may not be fully supportive of piracy, but Pirates would love her; they travel all the time, they love games of chance, and they use the stars to navigate. They're totally secret deity bros.

Weydan and Desna may be good gods for good space farers, but good spacefarers who also steal? Probably less so.

And Robin Hood would definitely be a cg space pirate for sure

As for the question of "why would Besmara depose Lamashtu specifically?", the answer is pretty obvious: they have a significant overlap, in that both of their areas of concern include monsters. IDK if they've ever been said to have a rivalry, but Besmara definitely dislikes Dagon, who also contests her on dominion over sea monsters, so it'd make perfect sense that of the original core 20, she'd go after Lamashtu