Gods of Starfinder, Part Two

"Because the god of killing people and taking their stuff for personal gain is somehow "neutral"."

I think for at least 75% of all Pathfinder games, that's also Standard operating procedure.

I think one part and parcel of Besmara's alignment is probably her opinion of doing "Evil" acts that AREN'T such brash and bold acts typical of piracy, and a general disregard for motive as to WHY one might be committing Piracy. As opposed to actually having an end goal of ruining something like the Evil gods have, such as Rovagug destroying the world. In which case, really its just her planting a flag as embodying a "pure chaotic" concept wholly, as much as it leans towards one end; rather than desiring to embody only its negative aspects.

By choosing not to relinquish the good or evil aspects of piracy, she gains neither. Meanwhile, Evil Gods of assassination relinquish the positive aspects to other gods; namely gods of good who DO permit assassination, but do not openly advertise that fact my listing it in their portfolio.

But besides that, and a more solid argument would be to consider the fact that for the most part, the moral boundary line between Good, Neutral, and Evil... All seem to be more pronounced for gods than they are mortals. Rovagug wants to destroy everything, and basically every CE god amounts to that too, as do half the NE gods... While mortal Evil mortals rarely reach those extremes, even CE mortals, often only doing as bad as a Neutral God would do on a "bad day".

Meanwhile, I think in terms of "Bold plays" that Besmara might approve of, the Starfinder era equivalent is probably closer to breaking into a corporate building's window, grabbing info, and then flying away with a getaway vehicle.

As for the case of Desna or Weydan... First, Weydan is practically one of those "peace and love" gods who disapprove of unneeded conflict; stealing things from corporations isn't their style. While Desna? She's practically the Goddess of Knights Errant in their traditional depictions; riding around the galaxy looking for new places and solving peoples problems. She's basically the goddess of the (Star Trek) Enterprise. And I imagine she'd be just as displeased as the other Good gods at wasting time acting as an "upright pirate" rather than... You know, actually trying to be a "proper" adventurer and explorer.

In any case, Besmara is probably looking at where she's staking her alignment claim by considering it as a choice of followers; looking at them all like they're prospective crew on her ship and thinking like "yar, I donna' car' why'a wanna' plunder, all I wan' is for yer to raise the sails and weigh the anchor!"

... Even if that makes her evil by human standards, as a human being that pragmatic would be evil, that fact alone makes her neutral by godlike standards; as gods are practically beings that embody alignment, unable to accept the worship of Evil if Good, and Good if Evil. If she cannot embody that evil, she's unable to truly "be" evil while being a god.

...Probably anyways.

Iomedae has been fairly alerted actually. She lost Honor in favor of only Honorable Combat, which is a sodalite change. Also she lost rulership for humanity.

Portfolios are not personality. Iomedae is still Iomedae. And Besmara is still selfish, violent, and indifferent to the harm she causes in her depredations, none of whioch are motivated by necessity.

Of course, but the good is not the general behavior.

But an activity that actively harms the overwhelming majority of those who encounter it?

Influence is power.

Only to those who cultivate it- and Besmara's church has always been less of a faith, more of, "this pirate crew needs a cleric so they have healing." She barely seems to notice she has worshipers.

And with that said, I step away from this part of the argument. Alignment: Still a gigantic damn headache, even thousands of years in the future.

Gonna just go with Besmara "deposing" an ascended and reformed Nocticula by stealing her from the Abyss and marrying her, regardless of canon.

"Because the god of killing people and taking their stuff for personal gain is somehow "neutral"."

I think for at least 75% of all Pathfinder games, that's also Standard operating procedure.

Also, the "killing people" part of that isn't a necessary, or even all that common, part of piracy. In 2012, 297 incidents of maritime piracy were reported to the International Maritime Bureau, but those incidents only resulted in a total of 6 deaths.

My favorite thing about the deity articles is that even thousands upon thousands of years in the future, there will still be alignment arguments.

In Space No one can hear it though....well we can hope. ;)

Will Huston wrote:

"Because the god of killing people and taking their stuff for personal gain is somehow "neutral"."

I think for at least 75% of all Pathfinder games, that's also Standard operating procedure.

Also, the "killing people" part of that isn't a necessary, or even all that common, part of piracy. In 2012, 297 incidents of maritime piracy were reported to the International Maritime Bureau, but those incidents only resulted in a total of 6 deaths.

Right, there's plenty of fantasy pirates who don't kill the crews of their prizes, some don't even take the ship, they take the cargo and hope the ship shows up again someday with a fresh cargo paid for by insurance. Piracy is just the chaotic version of taxation. Instead of society making you give up some of your stuff or they'll send hired thugs to kill or imprison you, a pirate shows up in person to take (maybe all of) your stuff and bear the risk that you'll fight back themselves. There's a certain refreshing honesty to it.

Besmara is the goddess of taking people's stuff, not killing them. Conquerors and thieves never intend as a primary goal to kill their victims, it's their victims deciding to fight that gets them killed. Submit or give up your stuff and you'll keep your lives.

Gonna just go with Besmara "deposing" an ascended and reformed Nocticula by stealing her from the Abyss and marrying her, regardless of canon.

Mustn't.... ship...

Garrett Guillotte wrote:

Gonna just go with Besmara "deposing" an ascended and reformed Nocticula by stealing her from the Abyss and marrying her, regardless of canon.

Mustn't.... ship...

TOO LATE!

Portfolios are not personality. Iomedae is still Iomedae. And Besmara is still selfish, violent, and indifferent to the harm she causes in her depredations, none of whioch are motivated by necessity.

We don't know that, becoming the patron of humanity specifically has probably changed a few things with her over the years. Losing Honor in favorable of Honorable Combat does imply a change. Honor is a vast and large concept. Honorable combat however... is much more limited and implies that some of her Honor might be gone.

But an activity that actively harms the overwhelming majority of those who encounter it?

Only to those who cultivate it- and Besmara's church has always been less of a faith, more of, "this pirate crew needs a cleric so they have healing." She barely seems to notice she has worshipers.

Except you are probably wrong about this. Influence is again power, just because someones ineptitude to use it does not diminish what it can do.

More important than that though is 'this crew needs a cleric' is likely not a thing anymore. She's not some backwater Shackles only goddess anymore. She's CORE. That means that she has active followers with influence and recognition across the pact worlds large enough to be considered a primary god.

Her followers will include pirate captains out for their own, people sitting on the infosphere digging out information, adventurers kicking down doors to slay the monster and steal it's loot, to the random guy who doesn't really do much that she might not be super happy with. All that said, they choose to follow her. She doesn't choose to let them though she can deny powers if they try to cleric for her?

You're still looking at this as though it's PF and she's still some backwater minor goddess. She's not. She has influence, she has power. She's got enough of it that she's one of the core 20. She clearly is using her power and influence for something. Assuming she took out Lamashtu that still doesn't make her Core, using her influence to get more followers and more recognition is more important.

You're still looking at this as though it's PF and she's still some backwater minor goddess. She's not. She has influence, she has power. She's got enough of it that she's one of the core 20. She clearly is using her power and influence for something. Assuming she took out Lamashtu that still doesn't make her Core,...

One analogy is that she's gone from being a mere Pirate Captain to a Pirate "Admiral", or something like that. She's reached a level of influence where the smartest move she can make in a war of the gods is to gather as many people as she can. Rebels, Privateers, Operatives, Adventurers, Mercinaries... Really, anything with a sense for freedom, and a desire for gaining "something".

Once the souls pass the great beyond, they make great crew and captains for vessels under her control.

... Now for some reason, given the nature of the Drift, I think I know what one of her current plans are for this band of followers after their death: with the Drift sheering off parts of the afterlife, any of her outsiders who get taken there can gather together to board any space ships traveling through. If even one crew succeeds, (and at least one will, given its her "thing"), then they can come and go from the drift as they please, free to board or obtain even bigger ships. Then gathering as many of her followers from the afterlife as she pleases; as well as brokering passage for any other outsiders with the gold to pay and a desire to escape the drift.

In fact, they probably explore and plunder the drift itself just as much as they plunder the material plane.

But otherwise, I can just imagine, anyone traveling space now can possibly encounter entire fleets of such "Ghost Space-Ships of Besmara". Like some kind of terrifying war ready space fleet of thousands of ships, ready to conquer entire systems for the sake of salvage or revolution. They could inexplicably help any cause for good or ill that sounds like a cause for plunder.

... Or more accurately, they'll plunder anyone with the power and resources to draw their attention, and side with anyone that seeks to take it for themselves.

So unrelated to anything discussed so far...I have two questions which hopefully the designers can shed some light...

1) Is there any mechanical effect or options about choosing a specific deity or is it all just RPing? (are there feats, etc.)

2) Are there anything about the Gods beyond the Core 20?

So unrelated to anything discussed so far...I have two questions which hopefully the designers can shed some light...

1) Is there any mechanical effect or options about choosing a specific deity or is it all just RPing? (are there feats, etc.)

2) Are there anything about the Gods beyond the Core 20?

Also, I saw mentioned above that there is no one alignment step for worshippers. Is this true?

More important than that though is 'this crew needs a cleric' is likely not a thing anymore. She's not some backwater Shackles only goddess anymore. She's CORE. That means that she has active followers with influence and recognition across the pact worlds large enough to be considered a primary god.

We know nothing of the kind- among the core deities, Urgathoa is specifically called out as only being a recipient of major public worship on Eox. The Devourer is venerated by nobody sane. Nyarlathotep hides his identity behind a myriad of cults. Besmara being a core deity in no way translates to widespread worship- it simply means the concepts she embodies are regarded as pivotal to the setting in some fashion- which makes sense because blowing up space pirates is a genre staple.

Neutral pirates

So two out of seven core races have evil patron deities. Here's hoping for the Starfinder Society to be more "progressive" and allow evil members!

Garrett Guillotte wrote:

Gonna just go with Besmara "deposing" an ascended and reformed Nocticula by stealing her from the Abyss and marrying her, regardless of canon.

Mustn't.... ship...

Of all the gods, Besmara is the most appropriate to be called God of Shipping!

Pretty sure that thievery is a Neutral act by Pathfinder ethics. I think the same goes for piracy.

What's the difference between piracy and patriotism? Ask Sir Francis Drake...

So two out of seven core races have evil patron deities. Here's hoping for the Starfinder Society to be more "progressive" and allow evil members!

*begins doing deep knee bends and stretching exercises*

So two out of seven core races have evil patron deities. Here's hoping for the Starfinder Society to be more "progressive" and allow evil members!

Seems possible- if nothing else, the iconic Soldier visibly displays Damoritosh's symbol...

RocMeAsmodeus wrote:

So two out of seven core races have evil patron deities. Here's hoping for the Starfinder Society to be more "progressive" and allow evil members!

Seems possible- if nothing else, the iconic Soldier visibly displays Damoritosh's symbol...

Yeah, but her Meet the Iconics entry notes she is lapsed.

Kiln Norn wrote:

Iomedae has been fairly alerted actually. She lost Honor in favor of only Honorable Combat, which is a sodalite change. Also she lost rulership for humanity.

Portfolios are not personality. Iomedae is still Iomedae. And Besmara is still selfish, violent, and indifferent to the harm she causes in her depredations, none of whioch are motivated by necessity.

Quote:

Of course, but the good is not the general behavior.

But an activity that actively harms the overwhelming majority of those who encounter it?

Quote:

Influence is power.

Only to those who cultivate it- and Besmara's church has always been less of a faith, more of, "this pirate crew needs a cleric so they have healing." She barely seems to notice she has worshipers.

And with that said, I step away from this part of the argument. Alignment: Still a gigantic damn headache, even thousands of years in the future.

You're extrapolating an awful lot from some pretty scarce information. We don't exactly have an "Inner Sea Gods" equivalent that gives us lots of detail on the gods and their outlooks. How do we know Iomedae hasn't changed? Do we know that Besmara is indifferent to the harm she causes?

Actually, in that last case that speaks to her being Neutral. An Evil deity would enjoy causing harm, and go out of the way to cause it. If she just doesn't care whether she causes or prevents harm, then she's Neutral.

Also, I saw mentioned above that there is no one alignment step for worshippers. Is this true?

I don't believe there's ever been an alignment requirement for *worshippers.*

Some divine spellcasters, such as Clerics, Druids and Paladins need to be within 1 step of their deity, but if an evil fighter (or wizard, bard, whatever) wants to go to Iomedae or Sarenrae's church, because that's the family religion, he's just gonna be bored.

But that's not even the case with all divine spellcasters. An oracle can be any alignment and worship anyone or no one.

You might feel a bit out of touch with some of the tenets of your faith and the services / sermons at your church, if the base religion is contrary to your own personal beliefs, but you might be there for other reasons, like wanting to change, or following the family faith, or wanting to be seen at the church of Sarenrae because that's politically useful to hold office in your native Qadira, etc. In a setting with dozens of deities, many of whom might better suit your own personal morality and / or ethics, it might make much more sense to go to a more compatible church, but there might not *be* a church compatible with your beliefs in your community (particularly if you are evil, and any religion that might appeal to you personally is illegal or shunned, or you'd be subject to persecution, run out of town or even locked up if people knew that you were a Norgorber or Urgathoa worshipper, gods you might have barely heard of, and know little or nothing about, in a community/culture that is dominated by Sarenrae-worshippers, to the point that it's effectively the state religion).

So two out of seven core races have evil patron deities. Here's hoping for the Starfinder Society to be more "progressive" and allow evil members!

You might want to listen to the interview that the SFS team did with the Know Direction team. And prepare to be disappointed, my memory says they were actually going to go the other way, and look at it being Good with Neutral tones, as opposed to Neutral like PFS.

It can be found here

I'm excited that Besmara is a core deity (Space Pirates has been a major trope for almost as long as space travel has been a fictional setting).

That said, I am simultaneously saddened that Shelyn is not going to be a core deity, given her relationship with Dou-Bral Zon Kuthon...

Lemartes wrote:

Also, I saw mentioned above that there is no one alignment step for worshippers. Is this true?

I don't believe there's ever been an alignment requirement for *worshippers.*

Some divine spellcasters, such as Clerics, Druids and Paladins need to be within 1 step of their deity, but if an evil fighter (or wizard, bard, whatever) wants to go to Iomedae or Sarenrae's church, because that's the family religion, he's just gonna be bored.

But that's not even the case with all divine spellcasters. An oracle can be any alignment and worship anyone or no one.

You might feel a bit out of touch with some of the tenets of your faith and the services / sermons at your church, if the base religion is contrary to your own personal beliefs, but you might be there for other reasons, like wanting to change, or following the family faith, or wanting to be seen at the church of Sarenrae because that's politically useful to hold office in your native Qadira, etc. In a setting with dozens of deities, many of whom might better suit your own personal morality and / or ethics, it might make much more sense to go to a more compatible church, but there might not *be* a church compatible with your beliefs in your community (particularly if you are evil, and any religion that might appeal to you personally is illegal or shunned, or you'd be subject to persecution, run out of town or even locked up if people knew that you were a Norgorber or Urgathoa worshipper, gods you might have barely heard of, and know little or nothing about, in a community/culture that is dominated by Sarenrae-worshippers, to the point that it's effectively the state religion).

I meant for those who gain abilities from deities. I guess in Starfinder you get to explain your pcs power source so it's kind of a moot point.

Thanks though.

While there is no requirement for worship, why would a god care about or favor a worshipper whose ideals and behaviour don't actually align with their own?

Maybe to entice more to their faith? Keep them from working for an opposing faith?

Regardless, I'm wondering if there is any mechanical effect.

While there is no requirement for worship, why would a god care about or favor a worshipper whose ideals and behaviour don't actually align with their own?

Large piles of booty on the altar.

While there is no requirement for worship, why would a god care about or favor a worshipper whose ideals and behaviour don't actually align with their own?

Maybe said deity is really, really nice.

Sarenrae for instance still gives spells to the Cult of the Dawnflower even through their warmongering religious zealots that believe entire nations must be cleansed by the sword. Actually now that I think about it that's what makes Sarenrae such a great and Good redemption goddess. You could possibly kill hundreds of people in her name and entirely pervert her dogma but in the end she'll always believe in you and forgive your bad behavior. Kind like my mom.

Anyways, Sarenrae FTW.

Maybe to entice more to their faith? Keep them from working for an opposing faith?

Regardless, I'm wondering if there is any mechanical effect.

I think Owen's mentioned elsewhere that currently Worshiped Deity is strictly flavor, nothing mechanical. That might change in the future, but it's not in Core.

IonutRO wrote:

While there is no requirement for worship, why would a god care about or favor a worshipper whose ideals and behaviour don't actually align with their own?

Maybe said deity is really, really nice.

Sarenrae for instance still gives spells to the Cult of the Dawnflower even through their warmongering religious zealots that believe entire nations must be cleansed by the sword. Actually now that I think about it that's what makes Sarenrae such a great and Good redemption goddess. You could possibly kill hundreds of people in her name and entirely pervert her dogma but in the end she'll always believe in you and forgive your bad behavior. Kind like my mom.

Anyways, Sarenrae FTW.

emphasis mine

So, essentially what you're saying, is that Sarenrae is Papyrus. Nyeh heh heh. I knew she was a cool dude.

Lemartes wrote:

Maybe to entice more to their faith? Keep them from working for an opposing faith?

Regardless, I'm wondering if there is any mechanical effect.

I think Owen's mentioned elsewhere that currently Worshiped Deity is strictly flavor, nothing mechanical. That might change in the future, but it's not in Core.

Thanks. :)

Delightful wrote:

IonutRO wrote:

While there is no requirement for worship, why would a god care about or favor a worshipper whose ideals and behaviour don't actually align with their own?

Maybe said deity is really, really nice.

Sarenrae for instance still gives spells to the Cult of the Dawnflower even through their warmongering religious zealots that believe entire nations must be cleansed by the sword. Actually now that I think about it that's what makes Sarenrae such a great and Good redemption goddess. You could possibly kill hundreds of people in her name and entirely pervert her dogma but in the end she'll always believe in you and forgive your bad behavior. Kind like my mom.

Anyways, Sarenrae FTW.

emphasis mine

So, essentially what you're saying, is that Sarenrae is Papyrus. Nyeh heh heh. I knew she was a cool dude.

Yep. I love that guy. Love killing him even more.

If Besmara actually deposed a deity from divine status as opposed to just major status, Torag is the most likely candidate since it is unlikely that any single deity could have taken out Rovagug. So far no other deities have been confirmed as missing.

I don't think it was Torag...her new portfolio's don't really match anything from his.

While there is no requirement for worship, why would a god care about or favor a worshiper whose ideals and behavior don't actually align with their own?

If we assume that worship of any kind from any source somehow increases a deities power, then I would think that many of the less scrupulous neutral and evil deities would welcome any and all worship. They may not care about the worshiper but welcome the deific energy/mana/divine source/whatever that they get from the act of them worshiping.

As well some might want that worshiper to eventually be swayed by their teachings and come to take them as their own views.

IonutRO wrote:

While there is no requirement for worship, why would a god care about or favor a worshiper whose ideals and behavior don't actually align with their own?

If we assume that worship of any kind from any source somehow increases a deities power, then I would think that many of the less scrupulous neutral and evil deities would welcome any and all worship. They may not care about the worshiper but welcome the deific energy/mana/divine source/whatever that they get from the act of them worshiping.

As well some might want that worshiper to eventually be swayed by their teachings and come to take them as their own views.

Except that we know for a fact in the Golarion universe that the number of worshipers means nothing to the deities.

Gilfalas wrote:

IonutRO wrote:

While there is no requirement for worship, why would a god care about or favor a worshiper whose ideals and behavior don't actually align with their own?

If we assume that worship of any kind from any source somehow increases a deities power, then I would think that many of the less scrupulous neutral and evil deities would welcome any and all worship. They may not care about the worshiper but welcome the deific energy/mana/divine source/whatever that they get from the act of them worshiping.

As well some might want that worshiper to eventually be swayed by their teachings and come to take them as their own views.

Except that we know for a fact in the Golarion universe that the number of worshipers means nothing to the deities.

Well, it does mean a little to them.

I mean, apparently alignment and god they worship determines who the souls go to after Pharasma has judged them and souls are what their realms are built out of(souls are basically filters for life energy existence is made out of) <_< Like, worshippers are to gods basically resources. Like, large amount of worshipper doesn't make god themselves stronger, but it makes their realm stronger if that makes sense?

@CorvusMask: Yes...but a CE worshiper of Saranae would not be judged as leading a honest life by Pharasma. So that soul would not got to that goddess's realm.

@CorvusMask: Yes...but a CE worshiper of Saranae would not be judged as leading a honest life by Pharasma. So that soul would not got to that goddess's realm.

Well, yeah, its more matter of quality than quantity :D

Except that we know for a fact in the Golarion universe that the number of worshipers means nothing to the deities.

Well you may have known that but I didn't. This is the first I am hearing this.

That said I would love to learn more about it. Any suggestions on where I can read up on this?

John Kretzer wrote:

Except that we know for a fact in the Golarion universe that the number of worshipers means nothing to the deities.

Well you may have known that but I didn't. This is the first I am hearing this.

That said I would love to learn more about it. Any suggestions on where I can read up on this?

The most clear-cut verbatim bits are in the "Ask James Jacobs" thread-

This post contains one such direct statement.

I wonder if the existence of the gods is still as undeniable in starfinder as it was in pathfinder, without a clear division between divine and arcane magic

I wonder if the existence of the gods is still as undeniable in starfinder as it was in pathfinder, without a clear division between divine and arcane magic

The land of incredibly cocky atheists might argue that undeniable part.

Question: Will the Starfinder Core Rulebook introduce new minor gods, in addition to the new core 20 and previously known gods? I can't help but hope somewhere out there in the cosmos is an ascended god of all nerds, granting their favor to champion speedrunners and people who know what "nerfherder" means, and showing their displeasure through sudden rick rolled pranks and failed, high stakes eBay bids. :p

Paladinosaur wrote:

I wonder if the existence of the gods is still as undeniable in starfinder as it was in pathfinder, without a clear division between divine and arcane magic

The land of incredibly cocky atheists might argue that undeniable part.

They're not really atheists, though, are they? They abolished the worship of any deities because they believed religion caused strife, not because they denied the existence of deities. Clearly, those clerics they banished got their power from somewhere.

They're anti-deists, not atheists.

The term you probably want is misotheists, or in a less extreme case dystheists.