FAQ on Errata

Fortunately my DEX fighter only took the one level dip for the IUS and meets the other prereqs.

unfortunately my swordlord is definitely dead in the water, RIP maneuver master monk.

Nah, the Master of Many Styles is finally a decent archetype that can and will actually be played start to finish. The hot mess from before needed to die in a fire well before this; if it hadn't been letting people Crane Wing at level 2, the Crane Style feats wouldn't have been such a problem in PFS and the whole mess that resulted from the Crane Wing errata probably never would have happened in the first place. I think the new MoMS is probably the best thing to come out of this batch of errata.

This is great, with the nerfs there is no reason to go gunslinger past 5.

Guess its time to play a barbarian.

Following that logic, you would prefer we were selling new players the exact same Core Rulebook that we introduced several years ago, complete with all the problems that we've identified and fixed in the years since? I'm not a fan of that plan.

I can't speak for everyone who's unhappy about the recent errata, but my issue isn't with updating the books. It's with redesigning their content. I can't see a lot of downside to fixing obvious editing errors, typos, things that actually don't work as written, and clarifying vague writing, but the last few updates have done comparatively little of that, instead focusing energy on actually redesigning rules. If I have the old printing of a book and something seems wrong or vague, I've no qualms checking a different source to see if there's been a wording update, but I stop trusting my books when the new printing is actually radically altering functionality in ways I would have no indication I would need to look up. Paizo's been doing power-level errata for a long time, but it had previously been sparse. The last three updates have been unbearable, especially since so much of the vague writing remained untouched (naga aspirant's naga shape, for instance) in favour of kneejerk power-level errata for things that mostly weren't big deals anywhere but in the imaginations of vocal forum posters.

Quote:

In the Final Embrace feat, in the Prerequisites entry, after “special attack” add “as a racial ability”.

My already-sad Unchained Protean Eidolon is made more sad by this. Enlarge Person for every combat it is!

This one is a tough pill to swallow. I've recently changed my opinion of Serpentine Eidolons from "underwhelming" to "level 8 late bloomer" thanks to looking over the large size evolution combined the Embrace feat. The mechanical contradiction is already awkward: a dex based beast that cries out for Weapon Finesse and Agile Maneuvers, but its stats shift to favor strength once you take the VERY necessary size increasing evolution.

Spamming a wand of Enlarge Person every fight isn't the worst fate for this niche style of summoners to suffer, but I hate to see Azata's serpentine skillmonkey/archer style dive further into the limelight by comparison. Proteans are a really cool subtype when it comes to fluff (second only to Psychopomps) but the fact that they're locked to a single body that is further narrowed in style means that this nerf makes them less appealing.

ould you please not put "nerfing" in quotation marks like it's something someone just made up while they were talking to you? I am an extremely new player, and don't own any of the books that are actually being talked about here, so I can't really comment on this discussion broadly, but that's seriously one of the oldest dirty tricks in the book. there is no way you are actually so out of touch with gamer culture that you do not know what nerfing is. If your quotation marks are meant to deny that you did nerf these things, then I'm pretty sure that's just false. Like I said I only have these comments to go on, but it seems pretty clear that you have made several abilities and classes less powerful, and even done so deliberately. That is nerfing. Even if it was the correct design choice, and I in no way claim to be able to tell if it is, it is most definitely nerfing. That's just what the word means.

The new MoMS can combine Pummeling with Dragon and Boar for maximum damage when it needs to charge, and then switch Pummeling to Jabbing once the distance is closed for even more damage.

Or if it's fighting something that needs to be crippled, it can combine Wolf Style with Mantis Style to debuff the hell out of it.

Or it could switch over to defensive AoO thing when it is fighting something dumb enough to trigger them.

And the same build can potentially do ALL OF THAT. Although looking through the feats, it seems dumping WIS would limit options a lot.

I was curious if what you wrote was possible, so I decided to try building it out. Here's the results.

You'll be level 10 in Monk before you get a second Wildcard feat to allow you to take a Style feat down the full chain. At level 10, with 10 int, and as a Human, you'll have 50 skill ranks, 6 feats (counting Human) and 4 bonus feats (2 spent on Wildcard).

Of those skill points, 8 need to be spent on Acrobatics for Dragon Style, 9 on Intimidate for Boar Style, 9 points on Knowledge (Nature) for Wolf Style, and 9 ranks in Heal for Mantis style. That will account for 35 of your skill points, leaving 15 free assuming you don't try for more styles that require skill investments. Also, through level 8 you will only have 1 free skill point each level, it opens up a lot after level 9.

Of those non-wildcard bonus feats, one style must be spent on Jabbing to bypass the flurry requirement, and the other must be spent on Pummeling for the same reason. That's all the bonus feats. A single level in Unarmed Fighter could give you one more free Style feat bonus feat, but will also slow down all your wildcard progressions and access to 3rd tier style feats that require certain BAB / Monk levels.

Of the regular feats, 4 would be spent on Styles (Mantis, Wolf, Boar, and Dragon). One needs to be spent on Improved Trip for Pummeling style, but will also be useful for Wolf Style. You also need Improved Reposition though. 2 need to be spent on Dodge and Mobility for Pummeling Style. That's 8 of 6 feats, so you'll need to figure out which you don't want to take to three.

Additionally, you'll need 13 Dex, 17 Wis, 15 Str to make sure you qualify for for all the feats you'll be taking. Assuming you put your racial +2 in Wisdom since it needs to be the highest that's 17 points in a point buy (out of 20 for PFS players). Dumping Int to 8 removes all free Skill points until level 8, leaving you with 5 extra skill points by level 10 instead of 15, and also restricts qualifying for any other Styles that require skill point investments. Dumping Cha seems clear, but that will incidentally hurt your Intimidate checks. Dumping Con is the only other option, and I don't think that generally works out for anyone.

So you have 15 skill points and -2 feats left to qualify for whichever style you meant by the defensive AoO thing (Panther, Crane, or Snake?). Of course, choosing to abandon advancement on some styles works out by reducing the investment costs.

You'll also need to keep your action economy in mind as you switch around. After level 8 (in the archetype, so 9 if you go for an Unarmed Fighter dip) you can switch into 3 stances as a swift action. Since you can change Wildcard Slots whenever you change styles, that means once per turn as a swift. And remember that at level 10 you only have 2 Wildcard Slots, so you need to pick wisely what you're using them on.

Overall the class feels like its a little better at going wide on styles, but significantly worse on going deep on them. It kind of sounds like an the Apprentice of Many Styles instead of the Master, but hey, I'm biased against it.

The action economy issue can be easily fixed with Combat Style Master.

The tight skill points is the big bummer for me, personally :(

Jester David wrote:

Started looking at the errata and then just stopped. There's so much that isn't "errata" but updates and rebalancing to the rules.

While I understand the need to keep things in line for the sake of balance, making my physical book useless at the table (because any given page or feature could have been errated and requires double checking) is a problematic way to do so.

The urge to continually "fix" the game and revise the books didn't do 4th Edition D&D any favours and I don't like it now. Accommodating the revisions causes more disruption to my game than many of the mechanics that were changed.

I think what we are seeing is Paizo stealth-releasing Pathfinder 2nd Edition. Like you say, many of their recent "errata" is less about fixing mistakes than it is about actually changing rules.

If that is their intent, it actually represents a significantly more ethical way of doing things then when other game publishers shamelessly invalidate every book they've published and make you spend $150 just to have the basic set of books that you need two play again. God knows I can't download a PDF file listing all of the changes between 4th and 5th editions of D&D so that I don't have to buy all of the book again if I want to play a current version of that.

Uh, you wouldn't want to anyways; they're completely different systems. 4e has more to do with the old chainmail games than with other editions of D&D. That's why people get decent use out of it running things like Final Fantasy Tactics or the such; stuff that's mostly focused on large setpiece battles.

They might as well put out a manual explaining all the differences between a house and a canoe.

QuidEst wrote:

Quote:

In the Final Embrace feat, in the Prerequisites entry, after “special attack” add “as a racial ability”.

My already-sad Unchained Protean Eidolon is made more sad by this. Enlarge Person for every combat it is!

This one is a tough pill to swallow. I've recently changed my opinion of Serpentine Eidolons from "underwhelming" to "level 8 late bloomer" thanks to looking over the large size evolution combined the Embrace feat. The mechanical contradiction is already awkward: a dex based beast that cries out for Weapon Finesse and Agile Maneuvers, but its stats shift to favor strength once you take the VERY necessary size increasing evolution.

Spamming a wand of Enlarge Person every fight isn't the worst fate for this niche style of summoners to suffer, but I hate to see Azata's serpentine skillmonkey/archer style dive further into the limelight by comparison. Proteans are a really cool subtype when it comes to fluff (second only to Psychopomps) but the fact that they're locked to a single body that is further narrowed in style means that this nerf makes them less appealing.

Well, since the evolution is granted by picking Protean itself, GMs may be willing to consider it qualified.

Fortunately, a recent archetype means Protean is no longer locked into just one form.

Secret Wizard wrote:

Here's a hilarious one:

Charging Stag Style, Kobold Style, Kraken Style with the Monk of the Sacred Mountain archetype

Charge them, grapple them, prone them, jump atop of them, throttle them to death and ALL WHILE BEING IMMOVABLE, so they can never remove you from being on top of them.

What's Charging Stag Style from?

Heroes of the Wild. Very good for Strangler Brawlers.

The action economy issue can be easily fixed with Combat Style Master.

The tight skill points is the big bummer for me, personally :(

Low skill points is a huge bummer, to be sure. At least Acrobatics and Intimidate are useful skills to have around. Knowledge (Nature) is okay. Heal is GM dependent.

And Combat Style Master can certainly let you rearrange your Wildcard feats on the fly, but that's another feat on the list of things you need.

I hope the next update will replace Spell Mastery's wizard prerequisite with a more generic "spellbook" or "prepared arcane caster that record his spells" or something along these lines

Also, Wildblooded Archetype needs to go away in favor of a Subdomain-like structure, but this would be a too big change for something that stands as an Errata maybe.

Have you seen the some of the "fixes" they've done? Entire feats and class features now do nothing at all like their first incarnations. Killing off another archetype, probably when a new base class is coming out that does something similar, is entirely possible at this point.

brock wrote:

Perfectly happy with my subscriber copies. I can put a sticky red dot in the margins where a change has been made and keep a copy of the errata doc inside the back cover. Plus I get the latest PDF for free and can use it on the iPad when I am away from the hardcopy. My experience is different to yours it seems.

As my experience is different from yours. I canceled my subscriptions in part because I didn't want the first printings with all the errors they entailed. I'd rather pay the PDF price and maybe pick up the hardcovers if they got a second printing with errata. Naturally, the updates to the third printings are frustrating as well, now that I have the second printings.

Technical writing pen and the margins? Or is that blasphemy like it is for some folkis.

Spamming a wand of Enlarge Person every fight isn't the worst fate for this niche style of summoners to suffer,

Is the summoner targeting humanoids, or his eidolon? Share spells only works with spells the summoner casts, not with spell trigger magic items (e.g. wands) he uses.

Captain Morgan wrote:

The new MoMS can combine Pummeling with Dragon and Boar for maximum damage when it needs to charge, and then switch Pummeling to Jabbing once the distance is closed for even more damage.

Or if it's fighting something that needs to be crippled, it can combine Wolf Style with Mantis Style to debuff the hell out of it.

Or it could switch over to defensive AoO thing when it is fighting something dumb enough to trigger them.

And the same build can potentially do ALL OF THAT. Although looking through the feats, it seems dumping WIS would limit options a lot.

I was curious if what you wrote was possible, so I decided to try building it out. Here's the results.

You'll be level 10 in Monk before you get a second Wildcard feat to allow you to take a Style feat down the full chain. At level 10, with 10 int, and as a Human, you'll have 50 skill ranks, 6 feats (counting Human) and 4 bonus feats (2 spent on Wildcard).

Of those skill points, 8 need to be spent on Acrobatics for Dragon Style, 9 on Intimidate for Boar Style, 9 points on Knowledge (Nature) for Wolf Style, and 9 ranks in Heal for Mantis style. That will account for 35 of your skill points, leaving 15 free assuming you don't try for more styles that require skill investments. Also, through level 8 you will only have 1 free skill point each level, it opens up a lot after level 9.

Of those non-wildcard bonus feats, one style must be spent on Jabbing to bypass the flurry requirement, and the other must be spent on Pummeling for the same reason. That's all the bonus feats. A single level in Unarmed Fighter could give you one more free Style feat bonus feat, but will also slow down all your wildcard progressions and access to 3rd tier style feats that require certain BAB / Monk levels.

Of the regular feats, 4 would be spent on Styles (Mantis, Wolf, Boar, and Dragon). One needs to be spent on Improved Trip for Pummeling style, but will also be useful for Wolf Style. You also need Improved Reposition though. 2 need...

Man, that's actually pretty depressing. I wonder what this guy really has going for him over, say, a Brawler.

I really detest all these changes.

It's literally stealing toys from kids. That leaves no one feeling good. I've yet to see a single person happy about any of these changes.

Captain Morgan wrote:

The new MoMS can combine Pummeling with Dragon and Boar for maximum damage when it needs to charge, and then switch Pummeling to Jabbing once the distance is closed for even more damage.

Or if it's fighting something that needs to be crippled, it can combine Wolf Style with Mantis Style to debuff the hell out of it.

Or it could switch over to defensive AoO thing when it is fighting something dumb enough to trigger them.

And the same build can potentially do ALL OF THAT. Although looking through the feats, it seems dumping WIS would limit options a lot.

I was curious if what you wrote was possible, so I decided to try building it out. Here's the results.

You'll be level 10 in Monk before you get a second Wildcard feat to allow you to take a Style feat down the full chain. At level 10, with 10 int, and as a Human, you'll have 50 skill ranks, 6 feats (counting Human) and 4 bonus feats (2 spent on Wildcard).

Of those skill points, 8 need to be spent on Acrobatics for Dragon Style, 9 on Intimidate for Boar Style, 9 points on Knowledge (Nature) for Wolf Style, and 9 ranks in Heal for Mantis style. That will account for 35 of your skill points, leaving 15 free assuming you don't try for more styles that require skill investments. Also, through level 8 you will only have 1 free skill point each level, it opens up a lot after level 9.

Of those non-wildcard bonus feats, one style must be spent on Jabbing to bypass the flurry requirement, and the other must be spent on Pummeling for the same reason. That's all the bonus feats. A single level in Unarmed Fighter could give you one more free Style feat bonus feat, but will also slow down all your wildcard progressions and access to 3rd tier style feats that require certain BAB / Monk levels.

Of the regular feats, 4 would be spent on Styles (Mantis, Wolf, Boar, and Dragon). One needs to be spent on Improved Trip for Pummeling style, but will also be useful for Wolf Style. You also need Improved Reposition though. 2 need...

Sounds like the build is pretty well set in stone then, right down to stat and skill allocations. That doesn't seem like much fun to build at all.

You don't really need to get around the flurry requirement though, as jab and pummel will become available for the monk at 8th level when they get their first iterative attack at which point all of jab and pummeling become available to them. You won't be doing too much with those attacks as your stats are all in wisdom, a stat you'd normally dump since you don't need flurry, but you can grab them.

Maybe a model character by the author of the redesign would be helpful to get an idea of their intent. Right now it looks like a much more multi-ability dependent version of the monk with more book keeping and combat rounds that consist mostly of declaring what happens when you change your styles around. I don't know about you guys, but I can feel my DM glaring through his screen at me when I need to explain what my styles are doing for me in a given round.

Maybe the intent is to have one core style using the flexible slots to grab the minor benefits of a few base style feats?

I'm a bit confused on how you're meant to play a MoMS now too. Originally I thought it worked as before, but better, but I can't really bring a good character together with it any more with the clarifications.

It's not really any worse for a dip, but IMO it's actually worse to stick with since despite the nice-sounding upgrades it's excruciatingly difficult to progress down most Style Feat paths without eating most of everything else you can do.

The fun Dragon/Snake/Panther build I liked to use is pretty much dead in the water now, since Snake Fang (the thing that synergized so well with Panther, and made Panther worthwhile as more than a gimmick) is unavailable until late in the game.

A lot of the Style Feats are in the same boat. Being able to ignore the prerequisites on a lot of the early ones was all that made some of them worthwhile, since most of them have very crappy middle Feats (Here's lookin' at you, Snake Sidewind and Tiger Claw), with the 1st and 3rd Feats being the only two that actually make any sense as being part of the same chain.

The ones released after Ultimate Combat are a bit better, but also highly and weirdly specialized Feats.

"Wildcard Feats" are a very cool thing that should have already existed, but this was a bad place to put them from what I can tell so far. Too limited in what you can do until VERY high levels, since you don't meet the prerequisites of a LOT of stuff until like 8th+, and by that point you only have one slot anyway.

You have a max of 4 Wildcard slots, that come at very weird levels so you're forced to choose between actually making use of your Bonus Feats, or getting the later Feats in a chain at any sort of usable level.

I'm a bit confused on how you're meant to play a MoMS now too. Originally I thought it worked as before, but better, but I can't really bring a good character together with it any more with the clarifications.

It's not really any worse for a dip, but IMO it's actually worse to stick with since despite the nice-sounding upgrades it's excruciatingly difficult to progress down most Style Feat paths without eating most of everything else you can do.

The fun Dragon/Snake/Panther build I liked to use is pretty much dead in the water now, since Snake Fang (the thing that synergized so well with Panther, and made Panther worthwhile as more than a gimmick) is unavailable until late in the game.

A lot of the Style Feats are in the same boat. Being able to ignore the prerequisites on a lot of the early ones was all that made some of them worthwhile, since most of them have very crappy middle Feats (Here's lookin' at you, Snake Sidewind and Tiger Claw), with the 1st and 3rd Feats being the only two that actually make any sense as being part of the same chain.

The ones released after Ultimate Combat are a bit better, but also highly and weirdly specialized Feats.

"Wildcard Feats" are a very cool thing that should have already existed, but this was a bad place to put them from what I can tell so far. Too limited in what you can do until VERY high levels, since you don't meet the prerequisites of a LOT of stuff until like 8th+, and by that point you only have one slot anyway.

You have a max of 4 Wildcard slots, that come at very weird levels so you're forced to choose between actually making use of your Bonus Feats, or getting the later Feats in a chain at any sort of usable level.

My Crane, Snake, Panther build faced a similar fate. It just doesn't do anything for a long time now.

The bonus to hit is nice, I will say that. My monk was planning around a lot of upgrades to hit to try and maximize my offense, though defense and AoO tricks were his main form of contribution. But the trade off just isn't worthwhile.

The worst part of it all is that the Wildcard feats do very little to actually advance the MoMS because of the strict and wildly different requirements on different style chains. Building a MoMS before was fun because you got to plug different combinations together and see what came out. Now you have to make sure the 3-4 styles you want are even feasible to take, then see what you have to give up (stat, skills, feats) to make them work, *then* move on to seeing what the character is actually capable of doing.

I would argue, again, that Unarmed Fighter is a better choice for actually building specific style builds now given that they receive so many bonus feats.

I would argue, again, that Unarmed Fighter is a better choice for actually building specific style builds now given that they receive so many bonus feats.

A dip into MoMS might still improve the straight unarmed fighter as it gives additional skillpoints and more style feats. Which is ironic because the changes should people keep from dipping this archetype. ;)

As the saying goes around here: gut gedacht ist was anderes als gut gemacht.

I was greatly pleased to see the change to double-barreled muskets and even more pleased to see the FAQ clarifying that it applies to other double-barreled guns. This is an issue I’d been discussing on the boards for a long while now.

Litany of Righteousness seems like another good change to me though honestly I would have rather seen it nerfed to just grant bonus damage or only do double damage on the first hit.

I have mixed feelings about the latest update to Crane Wing. It is tough to compare and contrast it with the previous version since I can’t seem to find a copy of that. Anyhow, it seems to me that simply allowing you to apply a +4 dodge bonus to your AC once per round after you are hit would have been more flexible and easier to use during play than giving you a +4 bonus which disappears when you’re hit by 4 or less. That ship has probably sailed, but I do hope that the Combat Trick for Crane Wing gets updated at least via FAQ.

Overall this errata had some good changes and helps to improve my faith in the Pathfinder system. Some folks have brought up the idea that the game might lose players because of rules updates, but the game also might keep players because of rules updates.

[Replying to Robert Jordan] Following that logic, you would prefer we were selling new players the exact same Core Rulebook that we introduced several years ago, complete with all the problems that we've identified and fixed in the years since? I'm not a fan of that plan.

Actually, I think that would be best. (Hang with me for a second).

(Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that the way WotC handled 3.5 errata?)

(Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that the way WotC handled 3.5 errata?)

Mostly. They would add proofreading erratas directly in the print, while balance-related changes would be added at the end of the books as an addendum. Whitch was a good way of doing it imho.

One thing that I would like to see is errata being issued independently of a new printing. This allows a few positive results:

- FAQs can remain as rules clarifications, and can be separated from actual changes.
- It allows community feedback of errata to be taken into account after errata has been released but before the next set of books is sent to the printers.
- After the first set of Ultimate Combat errata, several abilities needed to be recorrected to actually work. This could have been corrected prior to the release of the second printing had errata already been released.

...while the Master of Many Styles was altered a bit to make it more rewarding to those that stuck with it, as opposed to just dipping into the class for quick benefits.

Greetings Jason,

I'm in the same boat as LilyHaze, Rynjin, and some other posters in that I am having trouble finding the upside in the new MoMS. I am open to the idea that I am just not seeing the benefits yet. As ErichAD suggested, perhaps it would help to see a sample build so we can understand the intent of the new MoMS. Is this possible?

As others have pointed out and I agree with, a significant impediment is that the new Master of Many Styles needs to meet the prerequisites of any and every feat that he would like to spend a wildcard feat on. This means that the new MoMS expends just as much resources and effort to buy a style feat, or reach the end of a style feat chain, as a regular monk.

If the point of the MoMS is to, well, master many styles, this leads to reduced flexibility in how a new MoMS spends feats and skill points and allocates stats when compared to the old MoMS, also as other posters have pointed out.

LilyHaze mentioned at the end of their analysis that the new MoMS seems more like an Apprentice of Many Styles than a Master, which I took to mean "good at opening a style feat chain but not progressing further into it". At the moment, and hopefully without being offensive, that seems accurate.

Are we missing the advantage, the specialty, of this revised archetype? If we are, please help us out. May we have an example of how the wildcard feat rewards the new MoMS, of how this feature is intended to be useful and flexible?

Jason Bulmahn said wrote:

...while the Master of Many Styles was altered a bit to make it more rewarding to those that stuck with it, as opposed to just dipping into the class for quick benefits.

Greetings Jason,

I'm in the same boat as LilyHaze, Rynjin, and some other posters in that I am having trouble finding the upside in the new MoMS. I am open to the idea that I am just not seeing the benefits yet. As ErichAD suggested, perhaps it would help to see a sample build so we can understand the intent of the new MoMS. Is this possible?

As others have pointed out and I agree with, a significant impediment is that the new Master of Many Styles needs to meet the prerequisites of any and every feat that he would like to spend a wildcard feat on. This means that the new MoMS expends just as much resources and effort to buy a style feat, or reach the end of a style feat chain, as a regular monk.

If the point of the MoMS is to, well, master many styles, this leads to reduced flexibility in how a new MoMS spends feats and skill points and allocates stats when compared to the old MoMS, also as other posters have pointed out.

LilyHaze mentioned at the end of their analysis that the new MoMS seems more like an Apprentice of Many Styles than a Master, which I took to mean "good at opening a style feat chain but not progressing further into it". At the moment, and hopefully without being offensive, that seems accurate.

Are we missing the advantage, the specialty, of this revised archetype? If we are, please help us out. May we have an example of how the wildcard feat rewards the new MoMS, of how this feature is intended to be useful and flexible?

I gotchu.

Master of Many Styles Monk 12
Race: Human (Dual Talent)
Traits: Honored Fist of the Society, Quain Martial Artist
Attributes: S16+2 D15 C12 I10 W14 CH7
Pips: +1 DEX, then all STR

Feats:
1. Power Attack /R: Two-Weapon Fighting / B: Dragon Style
2. B: Pummeling Style
3. Weapon Focus (Unarmed)
5. Dragon's Ferocity
6. B: Wildcard Feat
7. Elemental Fist
9. Shaitan Style
10. B: Wildcard Feat
11. Improved Critical (Unarmed)

Offensive Stats with Power Attack and Shaitan/Dragon/Pummeling Styles using Elemental Fist

Unarmed Flurry - +16/+16/+11/+6 (2d6+19+3d6 acid, then 2d6+16, 19-20/2x)

Wildcard Feats can be used for lots of stuff while leveling, but most notably at this point they can be used to get Dragon's Roar for AOE, Shaitan Skin for a DC 18 save vs. staggering (that's more than a 55% chance to stagger a CR14 Mountain Troll, and you can do it 12 times per day), Shaitan Earthblast for ranged stagger attack, or, of course, Pummeling Charge to get into position.

With Magic items, DCs go higher, ITWF becomes an option, damage scales better, etc.

That being said, if Janni Rush is allowed to affect ALL your unarmed attacks in a single charge with Pummeling Charge...

Master of Many Styles Monk 12
Race: Human (Dual Talent)
Traits: Honored Fist of the Society, Quain Martial Artist
Attributes: S16+2 D15 C12 I10 W14 CH7
Pips: +1 DEX, then all STR

Feats:
1. Power Attack / R: Two-Weapon Fighting / B: Dragon Style
2. B: Pummeling Style
3. Janni Style
5. Dragon's Ferocity
6. B: Wildcard Feat
7. Janni Tempest
9. Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
10. B: Wildcard Feat
11. Improved Critical (Unarmed)

Offensive Stats with Power Attack and Janni/Dragon/Pummeling Styles while charging...

Unarmed Flurry - +15/+15/+10/+10/+5 (4d6+19+3d6 acid, then 4d6+16, 19-20/2x)

This one deals much more damage and go nuts by combining Janni Rush and Pummeling Charge along with Dragon Ferocity. Charging means you deal a ton of fricking damage.
This is assuming you can get some boost to DEX on a belt by level 9.

I have to see things as the rubber meets the road, so I converted a few of my previously created Monks t see how things play out. I ran with three: a 4th level Human Ki Mystic/MOMS/Monk of the Lotus, an 8th level version of the same combo that multiclassed one level of Sorcerer, and a 10th level Tiefling Ki Mystic/MOMS. I'm predicting that you are considerably more limited at low levels, while becoming more versatile by level 10.

The 4th level Monk had three Style Feats: Snapping Turtle Style, Snake Style, and Snapping Turtle Shell. Walking into it, I'm losing STShell, because I know I don't qualify. In theory. By level four you don't qualify for Snapping Turtle Shell, but he can pick up the prerequisite, Snapping Turtle Clutch. The only problem is that it requires Improved Grapple, and this is a DEX based build with Weapon Finesse. So, to get a reasonable facsimile of the original character, the character must be rebuilt to balance STR and DEX to pick up the prerequisite of the LESSER ability. The previous depth, at early levels, is long gone. While rebuilding, I was struck by the fact that it would be considerably easier to abandon the Snapping Turtle Depth, and instead go with a third Style that fit the theme (Crane?). This could also open up combinations of offensive and defensive styles that you can fairly easily flow between using swift actions.

The 7th Level Monk originally had the full Panther progression, with Snake Style and Snake Fang. Panther Style and Panther Claw were purchased with standard Feats, so the prerequisites for both were already met. I swapped Panther Style and a Wildcard Style into two Monk Bonus Slots, and then purchased Snake Sidewind straight out with a few minor skill point moves. The Wildcard would let him pick up Panther Parry since he already met the prerequisites. This is the point, though, that the advantages of a greater width comes in. The character, even at this level, still can't match the depth. However, if I abandoned Snake Sidewind, purchased Panther Style straight out, and then picked up, say, Tiger Style, the character could switch from round to round between Snake Sidewind, Panther Parry, and Tiger Claws as swift actions by bopping back and forth between different combinations of the three he wants with swift actions.

The 10th level Tiefling Monk originally had the Dragon Style, Dragon Ferocity, Elemental Fist, Marid Style, Marid Coldsnap, Efreeti Style, and Efreeti Touch. Elemental Fist, Dragon Style, and Dragon Ferocity were both purchased with feats, so all prerequisites for both were met. Efreeti Touch/Marid Coldsnap were again lost, but some minor stat adjustments allow for the character to meet both the WIS and CON prereqs for the second level Marid/Efretti Feats. Efreeti Style and Marid Style become the character's first two Bonus Feats*, with the last two becoming Wildcard slots. Though we lack the blasts of the previous build, the initial loss in power doesn't feel that bad.

There is a "however". However a three skill point adjustment lets the character also qualify for Dragon Roar. Now there is flexibility in the Wildcard slots - the character can go from combination fire/ice fists to either a fire roar or ice roar via swift style shifts.

This rules change seems to be a lateral shift in power. MOMS was easy to use (and, yes, abuse) because it let you get abilities way, WAY earlier than you should. While, admittedly, some would argue that the Monk needed it, it was out of step with similar abilities.

There is a bias to the method of analysis that I'm using here. It involves trying to make a previously made character under this new paradigm, and that is ultimately a fools' errand. We're talking breadth analysis vs depth analysis; a Master of Many Styles now has to look at what synergy of styles work best for the character's image, not what cool high level abilities you can chain together before you should be able to.

Without having ever created a new character from scratch using this system (I'll do that after this post), I would guess that you want to constantly maintain a number of base Style feats equal to however many you can fuse at a time plus one. This maximizes what the MOMS seems to really be built for: flexibility. Ironically, to make that work, I'd hypothesize that you have to have your final idea in mind from the beginning, and work accordingly.

I think we'll need to make a few of these to see where things really are.

Master of Many Styles Monk 12
Race: Human (Dual Talent)

Since MoMS replaces Flurry, how would the character be able to meet the prereqs of Pummelling Charge?

Secret Wizard wrote:

Master of Many Styles Monk 12
Race: Human (Dual Talent)

Since MoMS replaces Flurry, how would the character be able to meet the prereqs of Pummelling Charge?

Pummeling Charge doesn't require a Flurry; it just requires you to have a sufficiently-high BAB (BAB +12) OR enough levels in Monk/Brawler (lv8).

JAMRenaissance wrote:

Secret Wizard wrote:

Master of Many Styles Monk 12
Race: Human (Dual Talent)

Since MoMS replaces Flurry, how would the character be able to meet the prereqs of Pummelling Charge?

Pummeling Charge doesn't require a Flurry; it just requires you to have a sufficiently-high BAB (BAB +12) OR enough levels in Monk/Brawler (lv8).

Ah. My bad.

OK... I made a mockup 10th level MOMS, with a specific idea in mind. This idea was to combo Snake, Panther, Crane, and Dragon Styles for maximum ability to swap between offense and defense as needed.

The first thing I've observed is that synergy between the styles is key. There is MUCH to be mined here. Certain styles with minimal requirements (Snapping Turtle and Tiger come to mind) will be gold to use in this system, since you need little to Wildcard them. Similarly, finding synergy in requirements makes a huge difference. I predict you'll see a large number of Dragon/Crane/Snake style characters, since all three require Acrobatics. As another example, I originally wanted to have Mantis in there instead of Crane, but decided not to have to invest nine skill points into Heal. Finally, your feats are your gold, so the styles that require feats are harder to roll with. Panther and Snake both need Combat Reflexes, so taking both makes eating the feat easier. Yes, someone will need to write a FAQ on the synergies in MOMS across skills, attributes, and feats needed.

So, for those four styles, here were the requirements I needed:

Acrobatics 8
Sense Motive 9
Combat Reflexes
Dodge
WIS 15
STR 15
DEX 13

The feat progression was

1 Combat Reflexes
1H Dodge
1B Dragon Style
2B Crane Stye
3 Snake Style
5 Panther Style
6B Wildcard Syle
7 Snake Sidewind
9 Panther Claw
10B Wildcard Style

So our final combination lets him Wildcard any two combination of Dragon Ferocity, Dragon Roar, Crane Wing, Panther Parry, and Snake Fang, switching between them from round to round with swift actions. One round you run through a crowd of baddies using Snake Fang and Panther Parry to pound people en route. In the next, you Crane Wing deflect an opponents attack and Dragon Roar in the AoO.

This seems to be a totally different style of character than before.

I really detest all these changes.

It's literally stealing toys from kids. That leaves no one feeling good. I've yet to see a single person happy about any of these changes.

I am happy about some of the changes, as I said earlier on the thread (3rd post actually). I don't care much about the rest.

I'd guess that the MoMS change will make PCs with all or mostly MoMS levels more common. I think they will also be more powerful in the long run due to the attack bonuses and increased flexibility. They might miss stuff like Snake Fang at lower levels, but they probably shouldn't have had those things at lower levels anyhow (especially the dippers). I'll have to admit that I planned out several potential PCs all around dipping MoMS2 to plunder Snake Fang early, but deep down I knew it would probably cause a scandal at the gaming table (sort of like I never used the original Crane Wing except in theoretical builds)

I did use a 2 level MoMS dip to pick up Snake Fang for a 17th level BBEG (MoMS 2 / Vivisectionist 15 with Crane+Snake) but he'll probably just need a slight rebuild since he was primarily interested in Fuse Style. It looks like you still get Fuse Style at 1st level, so I think he'll just need to free up a feat to take Snake Sidewind. That's a pretty boring feat IMO, but it is definitely worth suffering through to get to Snake Fang if it can't be avoided.

The MoMS ruling really destroys Pummeling-Dragon Sacred Fists; there's literally NO way to actually get Pummeling Style, Dragon Style, Dragon Ferocity, and Pummeling Charge now.

And, really, that's not a bad thing.

The Sacred Fist could get this off by level 5, and that was just ridiculous - Charging and making a Full Attack, with 2x Str damage on the first hit and 1.5x on subsequent hits, plus Fervor-casting pump spells meant the SF was just freakish at lower levels, and didn't lose much steam at higher levels - ESPECIALLY once they got 4th level spells to launch Blood Crow Strike nukes every round.

Now, you can still get off Pummeling Style, Dragon Style, and Dragon Ferocity by lv5, but you're not getting Pummeling Charge until lv13.

Jester David wrote:

Started looking at the errata and then just stopped. There's so much that isn't "errata" but updates and rebalancing to the rules.

While I understand the need to keep things in line for the sake of balance, making my physical book useless at the table (because any given page or feature could have been errated and requires double checking) is a problematic way to do so.

The urge to continually "fix" the game and revise the books didn't do 4th Edition D&D any favours and I don't like it now. Accommodating the revisions causes more disruption to my game than many of the mechanics that were changed.

Let's see:

Plan A: We ignore the problems, refuse to answer questions that people keep asking, and force people in PFS to deal with balance issues. A lot of the audience is unhappy, but hey, you're happy.

Plan B: We fix the problems and you are forced to incorporate them into your home game. A lot of the audience is pleased, but you aren't.

Plan C: We fix the problems, and so long as you're not playing in Pathfinder Society, you ignore all of these changes. (Or just the ones you want to ignore, if that makes you happier.) Yet everybody who values them can have them, so everybody's happy!

We have decided not to go with Plan A. *I* certainly think Plan C is the best, but it turns out that if you really want to pick Plan B, I can't stop you.

It'a a tricky situation.

Balancing for PFS is nice, but that's a minority of players. And there's no shortage of broken options already. Option creep = power creep, and Pathfinder has no shortage of options.

Option creep = power creep

I disagree completely.

I'd guess that the MoMS change will make PCs with all or mostly MoMS levels more common. I think they will also be more powerful in the long run due to the attack bonuses and increased flexibility. They might miss stuff like Snake Fang at lower levels, but they probably shouldn't have had those things at lower levels anyhow (especially the dippers). I'll have to admit that I planned out several potential PCs all around dipping MoMS2 to plunder Snake Fang early, but deep down I knew it would probably cause a scandal at the gaming table (sort of like I never used the original Crane Wing except in theoretical builds)

I did use a 2 level MoMS dip to pick up Snake Fang for a 17th level BBEG (MoMS 2 / Vivisectionist 15 with Crane+Snake) but he'll probably just need a slight rebuild since he was primarily interested in Fuse Style. It looks like you still get Fuse Style at 1st level, so I think he'll just need to free up a feat to take Snake Sidewind. That's a pretty boring feat IMO, but it is definitely worth suffering through to get to Snake Fang if it can't be avoided.

I think dipping two levels of MoMS and going up brawler is going to be more common than straight MoMS. You pick flurry back up get some weapon options and your flexibility is more flexible.

White Templar wrote:

(Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that the way WotC handled 3.5 errata?)

Mostly. They would add proofreading erratas directly in the print, while balance-related changes would be added at the end of the books as an addendum. Which was a good way of doing it imho.

This is my preferred solution as well. Leave the original books alone except for typos and whatnot. Any balancing changes or clarifications should be in a separate document for PFS and anyone else interested.

Master of Many Styles Monk 12

Race: Human (Dual Talent)
Traits: Honored Fist of the Society, Quain Martial Artist
Attributes: S16+2 D15 C12 I10 W14 CH7
Pips: +1 DEX, then all STR

Feats:
1. Power Attack /R: Two-Weapon Fighting / B: Dragon Style
2. B: Pummeling Style
3. Weapon Focus (Unarmed)
5. Dragon's Ferocity
6. B: Wildcard Feat
7. Elemental Fist
9. Shaitan Style
10. B: Wildcard Feat
11. Improved Critical (Unarmed)

Offensive Stats with Power Attack and Shaitan/Dragon/Pummeling Styles using Elemental Fist

Unarmed Flurry - +16/+16/+11/+6 (2d6+19+3d6 acid, then 2d6+16, 19-20/2x)

Wildcard Feats can be used for lots of stuff while leveling, but most notably at this point they can be used to get Dragon's Roar for AOE, Shaitan Skin for a DC 18 save vs. staggering (that's more than a 55% chance to stagger a CR14 Mountain Troll, and you can do it 12 times per day), Shaitan Earthblast for ranged stagger attack, or, of course, Pummeling Charge to get into position.

With Magic items, DCs go higher, ITWF becomes an option, damage scales better, etc.

You don't qualify for Shaitan Style, Skin or Earthblast, your Con is too low.

Power Attack requires BaB +1, you can't get it at 1st level.

You have one too many attacks listed there, you should have three (two from BaB, one from Two-Weapon Fighting).

This build doesn't look very good at low levels either.

That being said, if Janni Rush is allowed to affect ALL your unarmed attacks in a single charge with Pummeling Charge...

Master of Many Styles Monk 12
Race: Human (Dual Talent)
Traits: Honored Fist of the Society, Quain Martial Artist
Attributes: S16+2 D15 C12 I10 W14 CH7
Pips: +1 DEX, then all STR

Feats:
1. Power Attack / R: Two-Weapon Fighting / B: Dragon Style
2. B: Pummeling Style
3. Janni Style
5. Dragon's Ferocity
6. B: Wildcard Feat
7. Janni Tempest
9. Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
10. B: Wildcard Feat
11. Improved Critical (Unarmed)

Offensive Stats with Power Attack and Janni/Dragon/Pummeling Styles while charging...

Unarmed Flurry - +15/+15/+10/+10/+5 (4d6+19+3d6 acid, then 4d6+16, 19-20/2x)

This one deals much more damage and go nuts by combining Janni Rush and Pummeling Charge along with Dragon Ferocity. Charging means you deal a ton of fricking damage.
This is assuming you can get some boost to DEX on a belt by level 9.

You still have one too many attacks listed there.

Power Attack is still not available at 1st.

Where are you getting 3d6 Acid? You don't have Elemental Fist in this build.

Nah, the Master of Many Styles is finally a decent archetype that can and will actually be played start to finish. The hot mess from before needed to die in a fire well before this; if it hadn't been letting people Crane Wing at level 2, the Crane Style feats wouldn't have been such a problem in PFS and the whole mess that resulted from the Crane Wing errata probably never would have happened in the first place. I think the new MoMS is probably the best thing to come out of this batch of errata.

I definitely agree. Master of many styles was banned in my home game since the beginning.

The biggest question I have is when you run a home game, you really modify the rules together with your fellow DMs. For example, we limit metamagic rods to one charge per day but keep the same cost. Imho, metamagic rods are too good for their cost and are much, much better than the feats. Errata that changed something about metamagic rods would not necessarily be implemented in our game.

The only downsides I can see with errata is when you and a player have a different book version, then you have to decide together on which version of the ability you use.

@Rynjin: Ok I f!%%ed up. That being said, the idea is there :P

@Rynjin: Ok I f!+&ed up. That being said, the idea is there :P

You run into the same issue with a LOT of Style Feats, because they require a varied stat and skill allocation, with some requiring outside Feats.

Dragon and Janni synergize all right, because they're both just Acrobatics, though need maxed ranks.

The Elemental Styles require a higher than normal Con score.

A lot of them require a high Wis (like 15+, so you can't just rock a 14 and high Dex or something, and are discouraged from just wearing armor).

Boar Style needs Intimidate.

Archon needs Combat Expertise.

Crane needs Dodge.

Cudgeler needs Bludgeoner.

Grabbing and Kraken needs Imrpoved Grapple.

Jabbing needs Flurry, so it's out entirely.

Kirin needs maxed ranks in Kn. Arcana, AND ranks in another monster identifying Knowledge.

Kobold needs Combat Expertise.

Mantis needs Heal.

Monkey needs Acrobatics AND Climb.

Panther and Snake need Combat Reflexes, and Snake needs Acrobatics AND Sense Motive.

And finally, Wolf needs Kn. Nature.

Not sure about Charging Stag or Perfect Style.

So you need a lot of s#$~ to have any supposed flexibility from this change. And those are just the prerequisites for the OPENING Feats, not the ones later on in the line which have both higher prerequisites and more varied ones.

This actually makes it a lot harder to build a MoMS from what I'm seeing.

Interestingly you don't need to meet prerequisites for the initial style feat, only for subsequent feats in the chain. You can take jabbing without flurry if you wanted to.

Interestingly you don't need to meet prerequisites for the initial style feat, only for subsequent feats in the chain. You can take jabbing without flurry if you wanted to.

Heh. That's pretty funny.

Of course, you'd also need to nab Dodge AND Mobility for that.

This change would probably be better if the Wildcard Feats ignored prerequisites on the later Feats. 6+ levels is already much more than jut a dip.

Idk why the wildcard feats dont ignore prerequisites. Just making letting them do that would make the class perfect imo

Too late to change them now, because that would invalidate all the books the printed using this errata. Makes it seem like more and more of a bad move to only put the errata out when you wanna sell more books, doesn't it?

Come on, Paizo, let us playtest errata for a couple months already. It'll help reduce any outrage and stop terrible changes that rob something of its uniqueness.

Here was the build I ran with pre-MoMS change.

Unarmed Fighter 1 / MoMS 10

1st - Improved Unarmed Strike (Class), Snake Style (Bonus), Weapon Finesse, Dodge (Human)

2nd - Snake Fang (Bonus)

3rd - Crane Wing (Bonus), Crane Style

5th - Combat Reflexes

7th - Panther Claw (Bonus), Panther Style

9th - Crane Riposte

11th - Panther Parry (Bonus), Mobility

Attempting the same under new MoMS

Unarmed Fighter 1 / MoMS 10

1st - Improved Unarmed Strike (Class), Snake Style (Bonus), Weapon Finesse, Dodge (Human)

2nd - Crane Style (Bonus)

3rd - Combat Reflexes, Panther Style (Bonus)

5th - Crane Wing

7th - Snake Sidewinder, Wildcard Feat (Bonus) - Probably used on Panther Claw, probably on Crane Riposte once we hit 11

9th - Snake Fang

11th - Panther Claw, Wildcard Feat (Bonus) - Probably used on Panther Parry

So I lose Mobility at 11, which is a shame. Much harsher, though, is that pre-9 the build doesn't do nearly as much. With Crane and Snake the character is still able to pull out impressive AC and eat up AoOs, but can't respond in anything approaching effectively. Without flurry my damage is down, and without retaliating I only get a single attack per turn unless I try to Panther Style one additional time per turn. My to-hit is still not great until 9th level when I get the +3 bonus from the recent changes. At 9th I also finally get Snake Fang and can start really fighting back against enemies that miss me, especially having just picked up Panther Claw at 7. That said, we're now 9th level and I'm unarmored. AC will still be high, but less important. By 11 I am nearly caught up with the pre-change MoMS minus the Mobility and Crane Ripsote (until 11) and plus 3 to hit.

The Wildcard feats don't function as Wildcards at really any point. To master the styles I want I need to spend them entirely on feats down the chains I am taking. Past 11 the character can look towards picking up another Style and working to unlock whatever it needs, though technically its still short 2 feats that its bandaging with Wildcard slots.

Thankfully I didn't pick very feat or skill intensive styles. That said, post 11 the character will need to figure out how to fit in a new style using almost only skill points, since at that point I won't have the feats to spare. At level 16 the character can have 4 styles active, so he'll have levels 13 and 15 (both regular and Wildcard) to pick up the style, anything it needs, and any further ranks of it he can afford. He likely won't go that far, however, because hes a PFS character, which makes it all the more sad that the character strongly underperforms pre-9.

Also, on the action economy front, I will be hard pressed to use my Swift action to change up my Wildcards should I ever want to because I need those Swifts to use on my styles, either through Panther Style before Claw is picked up, or Snake Fang via Immediate actions.

Well I've combed through the previous 6 pages of this thread, and didn't notice anything mentioned for pages 9-12 of UC. I'm still lost as to why Gunslinger 6+ is a thing of the past.

Can someone spell this out for the less educated, like myself?

Idk why the wildcard feats dont ignore prerequisites. Just making letting them do that would make the class perfect imo

Most likely to avoid stupid things like having Pummeling Charge at lv2 like you had before.

It's probably also following in the steps of Martial Flexibility, where you need to meet the Prereqs to select the Feat.

Which, really, is fine - you're basically getting an unlimited Martial Flexibility for Style-dependent Feats that activates as an instantaneous, permanent-until-released effect triggered by a Swift Action.

Well I've combed through the previous 6 pages of this thread, and didn't notice anything mentioned for pages 9-12 of UC. I'm still lost as to why Gunslinger 6+ is a thing of the past.

Can someone spell this out for the less educated, like myself?

Gunslinger, like the Fighter, runs out of juice but HARD after lv6; you get the most Feats and cool abilities from levels 1-6, and thereafter it's a little barren.

The sole exception was if you were aiming for Signature Deed at lv10.

Signature Deed, which requires Gunslinger 10, was a way to reduce a lot of really awesome Deeds from 1 Grit to 0, meaning you could always get the effects without having to pay for them.

Now, several/most of those Deeds say "cannot have its cost reduced" in their entry, which means Signature Deed is a far, far less-useful Feat, and thus there's next-to-no incentive to go past lv6 anymore.

They did the same to Opportune Parry & Riposte, which prior to the ACG errata could be targeted by Signature Deed to reduce its cost to 0 Grit, meaning you could Parry with your weapon as many times as you had Attacks of Opportunity available (meaning Combat Reflexes was SICK with it) without burning even ONE Grit point.