FAQ on Errata

For whoever manages the PRD website: The Crane Wing Feat does not have the complete text in the PRD. It was truncated for some reason. The part about deflecting an attack is missing. I'm not sure if anyone else has brought this to your attention but I was just letting you know.

Removed some posts and their replies—please keep this on topic and civil.

For whoever manages the PRD website: The Crane Wing Feat does not have the complete text in the PRD. It was truncated for some reason. The part about deflecting an attack is missing. I'm not sure if anyone else has brought this to your attention but I was just letting you know.

Please post any issues with the PRD here so we can keep track of it in one place. Thank you!

There are a number of decision I dont understand:

TWF Gunslinger are SO OP NERF PLOX> nerf weapon cord> invent gun twirling

OMG crane wing at level 2 is SOO BROKEN>nerf crane wing> Buff master of many styles

Yeah, logic

They didn't buff the MoMS. It appeared so at first glance, and while it's a good IDEA, it results in an archetype that is still a good dip, but is actually even WORSE for taking from 1-20.

They didn't buff the MoMS. It appeared so at first glance, and while it's a good IDEA, it results in an archetype that is still a good dip, but is actually even WORSE for taking from 1-20.

Ah well i was actually meaning they were "trying" to buff the archetype

the same people who were saying that early entry prestige classes were too op?

It amuses me when people refer to Scarred Witch Doctor as Scared Witch Doctor. I guess the ones still out there using Con are probably scared that somebody will find out about the errata and try to enforce it on them. I like nerfs, but I think the SWD nerf could have been handled more gracefully, perhaps with stuff like decreasing spells per day or forcing the SWD to inflict non-lethal damage on herself to memorize each spell so that she could choose between having a full complement of spells or having a giant bucket of HP (and do so in a way very thematic to the archetype)

Of course if the problem was with the hexes rather than the high HP then a nerf to the hexes themselves would probably be more effective (if perhaps even less popular)

Thinking that Scarred Witch Doctor was nerfed is naive

They should have never even printed it in the first place. CON casting is just bad, 3.5 already tried and failed. Kineticist only works because of the Burn mechanic and Overflow forces them into using it. And they are not 9th level casters.

Thinking that Scarred Witch Doctor was nerfed is naive

Yeah. They can have a 22 casting stat at level one now. You may not like the flavor change of not being con-based, but in terms of power, Scarred Witch Doctor is more powerful post-errata.

It was definitely a potential nerf for PCs like my girlfriend's Orc (not half-orc) who had a 5 Int and an 18 or 20 Con. I guess I should have been more specific.

Anyhow, the fact that the intended nerf was actually a buff for half-orcs since they don't get the orcish -2 Int only makes the errata look even clumsier in my opinion.

It was definitely a potential nerf for PCs like my girlfriend's Orc (not half-orc) who had a 5 Int and an 18 or 20 Con. I guess I should have been more specific.

Anyhow, the fact that the intended nerf was actually a buff for half-orcs since they don't get the orcish -2 Int only makes the errata look even clumsier in my opinion.

Any halfway-decent GM should have given her a rebuild or grandfathering. That's pretty inexcusable.

Other than that, I'm with you. I liked the old version far better, and it really needs a way to be better for full orcs.

Entryhazard wrote:

Thinking that Scarred Witch Doctor was nerfed is naive

Yeah. They can have a 22 casting stat at level one now. You may not like the flavor change of not being con-based, but in terms of power, Scarred Witch Doctor is more powerful post-errata.

Um, how exactly? Last I checked the highest stat they can buy into is an 18(which requires several trade-offs in terms of stats if it's a 15 Point Buy, or a very lucky roll in random gen).

Orcs take a -2 to INT from their racial bonus. The Fierce Intelligence feature only boosts it back up to where it was before their racial nerf, meaning they cap at 18 at level(which to be fair was what they capped at before). Please correct me if I'm missing something.

Even so, I'd still say losing out on synergy between HP, Saves, and Con checks is a bigger deal, even if they could reach 22 INT at level 1.

Edit: Okay, I see that Half-Orc Witches are a thing. Seems to me the easy solution woulda been to restrict it to just full Orcs.

Imbicatus wrote:

Entryhazard wrote:

Thinking that Scarred Witch Doctor was nerfed is naive

Yeah. They can have a 22 casting stat at level one now. You may not like the flavor change of not being con-based, but in terms of power, Scarred Witch Doctor is more powerful post-errata.

Um, how exactly? Last I checked the highest stat they can buy into is an 18(which requires several trade-offs in terms of stats if it's a 15 Point Buy, or a very lucky roll in random gen).

Orcs take a -2 to INT from their racial bonus. The Fierce Intelligence feature only boosts it back up to where it was before their racial nerf, meaning they cap at 18 at level(which to be fair was what they capped at before). Please correct me if I'm missing something.

Even so, I'd still say losing out on synergy between HP, Saves, and Con checks is a bigger deal, even if they could reach 22 INT at level 1.

Half Orcs can take orc archetypes. 18 INT + 2 Racial Bonus, + 2 Fierce Intelligence.

Imbicatus wrote:

Entryhazard wrote:

Thinking that Scarred Witch Doctor was nerfed is naive

Yeah. They can have a 22 casting stat at level one now. You may not like the flavor change of not being con-based, but in terms of power, Scarred Witch Doctor is more powerful post-errata.

Um, how exactly? Last I checked the highest stat they can buy into is an 18(which requires several trade-offs in terms of stats if it's a 15 Point Buy, or a very lucky roll in random gen).

Orcs take a -2 to INT from their racial bonus. The Fierce Intelligence feature only boosts it back up to where it was before their racial nerf, meaning they cap at 18 at level(which to be fair was what they capped at before). Please correct me if I'm missing something.

Even so, I'd still say losing out on synergy between HP, Saves, and Con checks is a bigger deal, even if they could reach 22 INT at level 1.

He's talking about half-orcs, who can take it because of Orc Blood. ^_^

@Darth: Half-Orcs can take Orc Archetypes. This means they can buy an 18, add 2 Racial, then 2 from Fierce Intelligence (totaling 22). Though to be fair, Ifrits have been doing this forever with Fire Affinity.

EDIT: Note to self, mobile posting = ninjaing.

And it's not like the pre-errata SWD wasn't better as half-orcs instead of full orcs anyway, as they could put the racial in CON while the Orcs had their static modifiers.

I edited into a comment, but I did see half-orcs had access to it. Seems to me they need to change it so that half-races can't buy into full race archetypes(I think requirements for a class strictly speaking isn't an effect, but that's just my opinion).

Cause yes, effectively 22 INT is silly if this was intended as a nerf. Also, I still miss the synergy con casting possessed, which for full orcs gave a relatively underpowered race a very cool and flavorful option.

I edited into a comment, but I did see half-orcs had access to it. Seems to me they need to change it so that half-races can't buy into full race archetypes(I think requirements for a class strictly speaking isn't an effect, but that's just my opinion).

Cause yes, effectively 22 INT is silly if this was intended as a nerf. Also, I still miss the synergy con casting possessed, which for full orcs gave a relatively underpowered race a very cool and flavorful option.

I think there's an FAQ on the subject or something.

i find more and more troubles keep cropping up from the "half bloods count as both races" faq than perhaps it's worth it.

scarred wd would have been fine with a con casting as an orc since they would get a bonus to str only instead of their choosing, making nice "melee witches" and such.

the rage about fates fortune (imo) is because humans got the best racial fcb for most new classes in acg and suddenly we have an influx of halforcs in the game (slayers, warpriests, etc). I mean, if only humans could get the +1/6 combat feat, then the balance of races wouldn't be so skewered.

The point is that it might not be a Nerf (CON casting is overrated, especially with that spell list), but maybe a way to forcibly shift the spotlight to the Kineticist as "the closest thing to a CON-caster" while really it had a lot of hype already as the first "true" elemental blaster that can energy attacks. According to other users it isn't even the first time maybe.

But really more than a nerf is a complete reversal of character concept.

I mean, if only humans could get the +1/6 combat feat, then the balance of races wouldn't be so skewered.

This is a huge contradiction, if only Humans could do so you would actually have a lot more skewed distribution in favor of Humans. At least this way they share the pie with a few other races.

To be fair though, Humans are the majority of the pie in most places.

I've grown to fear errata, but this one for the most part I approve of. There were some odd things in here (RIP Gunslinger 6+), but overall good changes. I'm slowly feeling my faith being restored.

Okay, I keep hearing this RIP Gunslinger 6+

So please, someone explain to me how the Gunslinger class is suddenly pointless after level 5 so much so that EVERYTHING the gunslinger gets after level 5 is worthless.

To be fair though, Humans are the majority of the pie in most places.

But it's a fact that preventing other races to have similar goods would only further skew the racial distribution in favor of Humans

Darth Grall wrote:

I edited into a comment, but I did see half-orcs had access to it. Seems to me they need to change it so that half-races can't buy into full race archetypes(I think requirements for a class strictly speaking isn't an effect, but that's just my opinion).

Cause yes, effectively 22 INT is silly if this was intended as a nerf. Also, I still miss the synergy con casting possessed, which for full orcs gave a relatively underpowered race a very cool and flavorful option.

I think there's an FAQ on the subject or something.

I'm sure there is, which is the problem to me. It seems to me to be a trend with Paizo's errata's and FAQ's, Instead of fixing the exploit that causes a particular problem.

MoMS getting into style progressions early? Better nerf Crane Wing.
Double barreled weapons enabling effectively 2 full-attacks a turn? Better hit Weapon Chords.
Half-Races getting access to ones designed for a specific race? Better nerf those classes.

It's just disheartening to see a game I genuinely enjoy continue to produce errata that I feel hurts the game. That said, they do occasionally hit the nail in the head, like finally hitting Litany of Righteousness and MoMS' bypassing style feat-lines' requirements. Just can't help but feel like they're currently doing a disservice to players with a lot of these kind of changes, and more bad than good.

N. Jolly wrote:

I've grown to fear errata, but this one for the most part I approve of. There were some odd things in here (RIP Gunslinger 6+), but overall good changes. I'm slowly feeling my faith being restored.

Okay, I keep hearing this RIP Gunslinger 6+

So please, someone explain to me how the Gunslinger class is suddenly pointless after level 5 so much so that EVERYTHING the gunslinger gets after level 5 is worthless.

It's not that it gets nothing, it's that multiclassing after that point is just better in what you would get.

Captain Olivia Quinn wrote:

N. Jolly wrote:

I've grown to fear errata, but this one for the most part I approve of. There were some odd things in here (RIP Gunslinger 6+), but overall good changes. I'm slowly feeling my faith being restored.

Okay, I keep hearing this RIP Gunslinger 6+

So please, someone explain to me how the Gunslinger class is suddenly pointless after level 5 so much so that EVERYTHING the gunslinger gets after level 5 is worthless.

It's not that it gets nothing, it's that multiclassing after that point is just better in what you would get.

This has been answered already.

It's again not that they don't get anything, it's that the things they get don't come close to comparing against what they could receive through multiclassing. Didn't you already ask this earlier in the thread? If you're not understanding it after that explanation, then I would say it doesn't apply to you, but rather people who are trying to get more out of their build than you are.

Yeah, my Pistolero is going Inquisitor when she hits 7th level.

It didn’t seem germane to the discussion, but the DM for my girlfriend’s Scarred Witch Doctor did in fact grandfather the old rules in for her PC since otherwise the PC would have sucked at hexes and been unable to cast spells. Obviously a rebuild could have produced a playable PC, but being dumb as dirt is an important part of that particular PC's roleplaying.

Back to discussing the recent errata for Ultimate Combat, I got my first chance to use Crane Wing v4 this week, and it worked OK. The sample size was only 3 melee combat rounds though, and my PC only got attacked in 2 of them. In another thread, Mark Seifter suggested that the new combat trick for Crane Wing might involve allowing you to regain the +4 AC bonus for 5 Stamina points after it has been used.

Regarding GS6+, I think working well with multiclassing is pretty common for martial classes. If you're a multiclassing fan like me you might think this is a feature rather than a bug. In many cases the class you jump to is also susceptible to dipping. Five levels is actually a pretty significant investment.

Multi-classing gunslinger was pretty standard even before these changes. The changes just emphasize this.

I feel that the developers dropped the ball with the deeds, targeting, and utility shots. Gunslingers go all out on full attack craziness because the class really can't do anything else. It lacks utility.
It would have been really cool to have smattering of attack action abilities that could be stacked with vital strike. This would allow you to do some damage but also apply a little control to combat. Disarms, staggered, blindness, etc. You could have even tied some of the effects to last a number of rounds equal to your additional vital strike dice.

Utility Shot is great.

Of course, you get it at 3rd.

Yeah but they are really situational. I have only ever blasted a lock open. I wish there was more and you got to choose X number from the list.

So Sohei got some clarification - which is nice - but is still better at flurrying with bows than the Zen Archer by not being bogged down with extra limits on it...

And Beast Rider was ignored so continues to not quite make sense.

Otherwise thanks for the fixes, even if they make me regret having bought a second printing to avoid the frustration of having to check the errata all the time when using the book.

Yeah but they are really situational. I have only ever blasted a lock open. I wish there was more and you got to choose X number from the list.

It's be nice if they got more options as they leveled. If they had some sweet new Utility Shots every time you got deeds (7, 11, 15 and 19) it might actually tempt people into staying gunslinger after 5th.

So Sohei got some clarification - which is nice - but is still better at flurrying with bows than the Zen Archer by not being bogged down with extra limits on it...

They can make more attacks, that's not quite the same as being better. The Zen Archer still gets more, and more relevant, bonus feats, Perfect Strike, and the ability to pump the damage die of his arrows up pretty damn high. There's no reason to touch the Sohei's flurry.

Although Sohei can still take a 15th level feat like Mounted Skirmisher at first level. Really wish there had been some clarification on that.

I had a question about Crane Wing. I definitely like the new version of the feat, but now the Stamina Combat Trick for it from Unchained doesn't do anything because you no longer designate a single opponent. Are there plans to update this too?

The current wording is: "When fighting defensively with at least one hand free, you can spend 5 stamina points to designate a second opponent for your Crane Wing feat. You also gain a +2 dodge bonus to AC against that opponent's attacks." But Crane Wing doesn't work by designating opponents anymore, it simply gives you +4 dodge against all melee attackers until one of them misses you by 4 or less.

Although Sohei can still take a 15th level feat like Mounted Skirmisher at first level. Really wish there had been some clarification on that.

Who else is going to use Mounted Skirmisher though? It's not compatible with their new mounted charge definition, so it doesn't stack with the much more accessible (and at many levels, more powerful) Spirited Charge or any other good/mandatory mounted combat feats like Ride-by Attack, so someone should be able to use it as long as it's taking up page space.

Considering how many FAQ requests there have been on the matter, there's only two conclusions you can make:
either the design team can't be bothered with mounted combat unless it interacts with one of their pet mechanics like Vital Strike, or it's working as intended. Or maybe the third option that many people having been hoping for for a few years now, they're working on an actual comprehensive fix and they don't want to touch it until they're done. Considering the FAQs they've put out removing entire paragraphs from the CRB so that you can't use Vital Strike with a mounted charge and the length of time mounted combat issues have been left to languish though, that unfortunately seems unlikely.

@Psyren - As I posted previously, "In another thread, Mark Seifter suggested that the new combat trick for Crane Wing might involve allowing you to regain the +4 AC bonus for 5 Stamina points after it has been used." Mark also mentioned the idea of this giving you another chance to get an AoO from Crane Riposte, which I guess would make it like a very limited use Snake Fang. We also agreed that using the Crane Wing trick shouldn't count as an action.

@Ssalarn - What's the new mounted charge definition?

@Psyren - As I posted previously, "In another thread, Mark Seifter suggested that the new combat trick for Crane Wing might involve allowing you to regain the +4 AC bonus for 5 Stamina points after it has been used." Mark also mentioned the idea of this giving you another chance to get an AoO from Crane Riposte, which I guess would make it like a very limited use Snake Fang. We also agreed that using the Crane Wing trick shouldn't count as an action.

@Ssalarn - What's the new mounted charge definition?

When making a mounted charge, both you and your mount are charging. It limits some options pretty severely.

Devilkiller wrote:

@Psyren - As I posted previously, "In another thread, Mark Seifter suggested that the new combat trick for Crane Wing might involve allowing you to regain the +4 AC bonus for 5 Stamina points after it has been used." Mark also mentioned the idea of this giving you another chance to get an AoO from Crane Riposte, which I guess would make it like a very limited use Snake Fang. We also agreed that using the Crane Wing trick shouldn't count as an action.

@Ssalarn - What's the new mounted charge definition?

When making a mounted charge, both you and your mount are charging. It limits some options pretty severely.

"Is less abusable" I think are the words you are looking for ;)

"Is less abusable" I think are the words you are looking for ;)

Personally I think it's a rotten option. To get "good" at charging, you have to spec towards it quite heavily in feats and such. Even beyond that you either opt to be a small creature just so you can ride medium mounts to not be restricted in dungeons or you are fighting large enough enemies that even on the charge they get an AoO against you on the charge risking getting hit in the process. It's always been a trade off, just like how archers(Switch hitters excluded) spec very heavily into ranged damage.

I mean sure they do(or did) crazy damage on a charge, but I think it would have made more sense to nerf the options that add to damage and specify they don't add to a charge rather than make it so you only get the one attack. Now, I really can't think of anyone who would make a dedicated charger in my playgroup now.