Ultimate Intrigue—Vigilante Playtest!

Mark Seifter wrote:

Since Milo v3 has promised to playtest a level 15 warlock (no small feat!) he has unlocked the following Occult Adventures preview. So let's hear it for Milo!

** spoiler omitted **...

And I see this in the middle of the first playtest battle (frightening appearance is very fun even if it's for one round).

hmmm... Being able to stealth even against darkvision is a nice ability, the moving along walls sounds delightfully creepy, and it still lets the warlock use it's mystic bolt and spells. I'd prefer if it was more than once per day, but it is a playtest so it's sensible to be cautious with incorporeality.

Yeah, it wouldn't shock me if the final let you split up the time in increments of 1 minute (1 round at lower levels).

And I see this in the middle of the first playtest battle (frightening appearance is very fun even if it's for one round).

hmmm... Being able to stealth even against darkvision is a nice ability, the moving along walls sounds delightfully creepy, and it still lets the warlock use it's mystic bolt and spells. I'd prefer if it was more than once per day, but it is a playtest so it's sensible to be cautious with incorporeality.

Well, it doesn't let them cast. But there's nothing prohibiting (Sp) or (Su) abilities, so Mystic Bolt is still in.

I agree about the uses/day. Maybe it can be used in 1-round increments? If that's a bit much it could be kept at 1/day for levels 6-13 and become usable in 1-minute increments from level 14 onwards.

Overall, though, definitely a fun ability. I'd take it on a Warlock for sure. Thanks for sharing it with us, Mark!

Edit to add: I got ninja'd by the man himself, suggesting the very same thing as I thought of :D

Well, it doesn't let them cast. But there's nothing prohibiting (Sp) or (Su) abilities, so Mystic Bolt is still in.

It does let them cast "You can speak and cast spells and perform mental actions", you just can't cast spells with a material component.

Extra Anchovies wrote:

Well, it doesn't let them cast. But there's nothing prohibiting (Sp) or (Su) abilities, so Mystic Bolt is still in.

It does let them cast "You can speak and cast spells and perform mental actions", you just can't cast spells with a material component.

Read the warlock ability, not the spell. "This effect lasts for 1 round per vigilante level, and the warlock vigilante can’t cast spells while in this form." Once you hit 14th, that's not an issue anymore, though!

And yeah, I really hope the final version of this can be split up over multiple rounds/minutes, I love the concept, but I find it really hard to justify a 1/day ability, even one as cool as that one.

Okay, first battle finished. Since it was the first fight I got an easy challenge of a 14th level NPC rogue from the NPC Codex. With coming out of stealth and causing the rogue to run away in fear with his first action (and taking a haste potion), and then paralysing it with hold person I was able to simply walk up to it, quick draw my gold-plated swordcane and kill the chain mauler with a TWF full attack.

Attack with mystic bolt got 19 damage, not much but the fear was a great rider effect, and the full attack did 102 damage. Admittedly, one of the hits with the mystic bolt in the full attack was a critical.

Although quick, it was fun to see an enemy described as "The chain mauler is a vicious sadist whose weapon allows her the bloodiest satisfaction.", run away in terror.

Read the warlock ability, not the spell. "This effect lasts for 1 round per vigilante level, and the warlock vigilante can’t cast spells while in this form." Once you hit 14th, that's not an issue anymore, though!

And yeah, I really hope the final version of this can be split up over multiple rounds/minutes, I love the concept, but I find it really hard to justify a 1/day ability, even one as cool as that one.

Ahh... Missed that.

Personally I think one addition the martial focused guys should get is a Grit Pool type of mechanic.

The problem I notice a lot of people having is that the casters are too much more powerful than the martials.. but toning the casters to the martials is the wrong direction... the martials are just TOO weak. Giving them a Grit mechanic allows the designers to maybe tune up the powers the martial guys get by having a limited resource (utilizing points) and does not completely break the feel of the class.

My other suggestion is twofold. Either fix the progression of the spell casters, or if you want to do something different, allow the spell casters to cast off any list of their respective types (divine vs arcane) but keep the mandate of using their talents to unlock further levels of spell casting. This makes it so there is seen as some sort of justification for the ability (vs as it stands right now where it is seen as a tax for no reason since Magus and Inquisitor get full casting AND class abilities... and the Magus can cast even more than any Warlock... and they can do it in armor) since it creates a very interesting flavor and (especially for the warlock) allows for that flexibility to really be stretched but still be kept in check by their spells per day (which is abysmall... even at max training...)

Maybe panache rather than grit? Since that's more charisma-y? Though... grit is more... gritty. Which is very vigilante-y

WEll that is why I said a Grit pool type of mechanic. Honestly I will always think of it as grit because Panache is just reflavored grit.. and I love Gunslingers :P but either way. A pool mechanic similiar to grit or Panache.

Maybe panache rather than grit? Since that's more charisma-y? Though... grit is more... gritty. Which is very vigilante-y

"Swear to me!"

Personally I think one addition the martial focused guys should get is a Grit Pool type of mechanic.

The problem I notice a lot of people having is that the casters are too much more powerful than the martials.. but toning the casters to the martials is the wrong direction... the martials are just TOO weak. Giving them a Grit mechanic allows the designers to maybe tune up the powers the martial guys get by having a limited resource (utilizing points) and does not completely break the feel of the class.

My other suggestion is twofold. Either fix the progression of the spell casters, or if you want to do something different, allow the spell casters to cast off any list of their respective types (divine vs arcane) but keep the mandate of using their talents to unlock further levels of spell casting. This makes it so there is seen as some sort of justification for the ability (vs as it stands right now where it is seen as a tax for no reason since Magus and Inquisitor get full casting AND class abilities... and the Magus can cast even more than any Warlock... and they can do it in armor) since it creates a very interesting flavor and (especially for the warlock) allows for that flexibility to really be stretched but still be kept in check by their spells per day (which is abysmall... even at max training...)

They'd have to make some Deeds that are really, really, REALLY damn good to even think about competing with spellcasting.

Well, nothing is gonna compete with spellcasting sadly, but powering up the Martials would be a start, and Paizo seems really dead set on nerfing powers that don't come from a pool of some sort ("you can do them all day" is a poor excuse to give the fighter cruddy stuff... and 1/day abilities are just horrible for martials sadly...)

Shadow Body reminds me of Dr. Facilier's Voodoo Minions. ^_^

I just saw Voodoo Glow Skulls IRL. :-)

"Swear to me!"

I don't think you have to actually swallow the grit to have grit points.

At least I hope not, my Doc Holiday inspired Gunslinger doesn't really have the Constitution for that...

loooking through the book, it seems like the casting specializations are really bogged down by the talent requirements for their spellcasting. while i agree that getting their casting for free might be a little on the powerful side, it feels pretty bad to be so limited in your options compared to other 6-level casters. comparing the warlock to a magus, they get no casting with armor, less spells per day, and less other class features on top of that. if you want your already reduced casting to be at reasonable levels, you only get 2 other talents by level 12, which sort of defeats the purpose of having all of the talents in the first place.

maybe gain new spell levels without talents, but with only 1 spell per day of any level, and use talents to increase spells/day? it just feels like a huge tax on otherwise super cool, interesting options

I dunno if this is the right thread, but as I posted my other ideas here, I figure this is as good as any of the threads about the playtest. In addition to my previous post other posters have given me ideas on how to best add more cool things to the avenger and stalker to make them more on par.

Not had a chance to use the Vigilante yet, but very soon.

The feeling I get with all of the specializations from reading is that it's definitely the Intimidate class, and some folks have provided feedback that Intimidation should be a class skill, which I certainly agree with.

It might be interesting, with so many class abilities interacting with Intimidate, if the combat role and mechanics of the Vigilante were expanded to embrace that as a core mechanic, so that the unarmed strikes made by the vigilante are more effective against demoralized foes; perhaps bumping the damage rolls on demoralized targets up to monk/brawler levels or allowing Hidden Strike to have full effect on demoralised targets rather than flanked targets, to differentiate it from Sneak Attack.

A grit style mechanic would definitely be appropriate for this class and should it be implemented, also tied to Intimidate to allow point recharges, perhaps through successfully reducing a target to cowering by repeatedly intimidating them.

I'd actually favour having BOTH of these mechanics apply; have the Vigilante grow more powerful as combat progresses based on how many of her foes are afraid of her. The grit points feed the powers which trigger more intimidation rolls which generate more grit - literally make it the class that feeds on it's enemies fears.

I just hope that the final version of the warlock will be able to use its Concealed Casting ability even in his social guise in the final version. That ability is *made* for secretly casting spells on people when you aren't dressed in your costume.

Personally I think it's social guise shouldn't get it's "super powers" such as spells, martial powers, or sneak attack like ability.

I just read over the avenger/stalker/warlock parts of the class. (didnt bother with Zealot as Im not much into divine). everything looks pretty good. Couple things I might add to the Stalker though. I see a stalker as being a traditional spy/assassin. Socialite who poisons the chalice of the king by day, sneak in and stab the king in the heart in the bed by night.

1. give them access to poison use through a talent.

this will allow them to poison their blades or try and slip poison in someones drink/food. especially since it says they can add their sneak attack if the target doesnt notice their presence OR thinks they are an ALLY. When I read the sneak attack and saw the "or thinks they are an ally" part all I pictured was 2 men walking down the hall with their arms around each others shoulders laughing, but one man was holding a dagger ready to plunge in the other man with a quick move. best add poison to that blade in case you miss a vital spot at least you can still poison the man and finish the job.

2. Give them a talent that boosts stealth numerically. Im not talking about taking the negative from armor away, I mean something like "Feather Step; you have become so good at walking softly its almost as if your feet dont touch the ground. you gain a +5 competence to stealth checks and can hide in plain sight even when adjacent to another creature."

3. Give them a boost numerically to Bluff or Diplomacy. as I said this is the socialite assassin. So he would be able to talk his way close to his target (usually high ranking like a king)

Seems that this class would only work well in a game where everyone in the party was a vigilante, and it was almost always in the same large city or area...

There are a lot of fun city-based campaign areas: Sigil, Greyhawk, Waterdeep, Absalom, Madripoor, Sanctuary, Lankhmar, Adrilankha, etc.

There are a lot of fun city-based campaign areas: Sigil, Greyhawk, Waterdeep, Absalom, Madripoor, Sanctuary, Lankhmar, Adrilankha, etc.

All of which have populations far too large for renown to work on. Even the smallest district of any of those cities has a population above 200.

SmiloDan wrote:

There are a lot of fun city-based campaign areas: Sigil, Greyhawk, Waterdeep, Absalom, Madripoor, Sanctuary, Lankhmar, Adrilankha, etc.

All of which have populations far too large for renown to work on. Even the smallest district of any of those cities has a population above 200.

For all that I am enjoying the vigilante so far, I really do think that the renown sizes are too small. It's especially weird that the sizes only really seem to matter for the social persona - "within miles equal to level" on the Intimidate side means you'll encompass an entire metropolis by 3rd or 4th level, while your social is still limited to something like a single city block.

Imbicatus wrote:

SmiloDan wrote:

There are a lot of fun city-based campaign areas: Sigil, Greyhawk, Waterdeep, Absalom, Madripoor, Sanctuary, Lankhmar, Adrilankha, etc.

All of which have populations far too large for renown to work on. Even the smallest district of any of those cities has a population above 200.

For all that I am enjoying the vigilante so far, I really do think that the renown sizes are too small. It's especially weird that the sizes only really seem to matter for the social persona - "within miles equal to level" on the Intimidate side means you'll encompass an entire metropolis by 3rd or 4th level, while your social is still limited to something like a single city block.

Yeah, if you can't get at least a district of Korvosa or Westcrown very early, there's an issue.

The population problem could be funny in a game.

Hey, you know what? There's another name you might know me by!

.....Starlord!!
Who!?!
Starlord man. Legendary outlaw?

The population problem could be funny in a game.

Quote:

Hey, you know what? There's another name you might know me by!

.....Starlord!!
Who!?!
Starlord man. Legendary outlaw?

Actually... I don't hate this. ^_^

Maybe start out in Hell's Kitchen? Or maybe Heck's Pantry?

And then a few levels later:

KORATH: Star-Lord!

STAR-LORD: FINALLY.

Shisumo wrote:

Imbicatus wrote:

SmiloDan wrote:

There are a lot of fun city-based campaign areas: Sigil, Greyhawk, Waterdeep, Absalom, Madripoor, Sanctuary, Lankhmar, Adrilankha, etc.

All of which have populations far too large for renown to work on. Even the smallest district of any of those cities has a population above 200.

For all that I am enjoying the vigilante so far, I really do think that the renown sizes are too small. It's especially weird that the sizes only really seem to matter for the social persona - "within miles equal to level" on the Intimidate side means you'll encompass an entire metropolis by 3rd or 4th level, while your social is still limited to something like a single city block.

Yeah, if you can't get at least a district of Korvosa or Westcrown very early, there's an issue.

You want Charm Person for the whole city at level 3? The only difference is instead of getting a save, they just have to not hate you as soon as you meet. You are well-liked in a small part of the community- everywhere else, you just get bonuses.

Seems that this class would only work well in a game where everyone in the party was a vigilante, and it was almost always in the same large city or area...

Not really, this is the class the person who says "Ill be whatever the party needs to fill it out" takes. Lots of options. Not to mention someone who takes this class can say, Ill take this class but make a tank, so the rest of the group knows what to make to round out the party. (At least I hope there is some talk on what people are making to make a cohesive party, if not then your group might be screwed).

And all the Vigilante needs is a week in the new town to gain influence and the Intimidation benefit, he loses it in the old city but meh. and only needs to spend 4 hours a day during that week to do it. so once he's done mingling as his Social Identity he can go investigating, track down leads, gather info, stop some random crimes to maybe add more influence as his Vigilante Identity. for roleplaying purposes most GM's will say ya sure you can take that week to influence this town but roleplay it, I wanna hear what your character would say to people. Throw in that your Vigilante Identity also spends the week routing crimes and stuff and a couple skill checks later and boom you have now established the vigilante in the new town, without really impacting the story, even if its time sensitive (like Reign of Winter, the geas spell said it understood preping for the journey, well establishing a reputation to make gathering info and preping for your journey easier would be an understandable act).

Seems that this class would only work well in a game where everyone in the party was a vigilante, and it was almost always in the same large city or area...

And I suspect that a significant amount of Ultimate Intrique will be about running campaigns in that style.

Kryzbyn wrote:

Seems that this class would only work well in a game where everyone in the party was a vigilante, and it was almost always in the same large city or area...

And I suspect that a significant amount of Ultimate Intrique will be about running campaigns in that style.

...Which means they're asking us to playtest a class designed for a type of campaign they haven't written yet.

LazarX wrote:

Kryzbyn wrote:

Seems that this class would only work well in a game where everyone in the party was a vigilante, and it was almost always in the same large city or area...

And I suspect that a significant amount of Ultimate Intrique will be about running campaigns in that style.

...Which means they're asking us to playtest a class designed for a type of campaign they haven't written yet.

I don't see this as a problem for the following reasons.

1. No one is twisting your arms to play the class.

2. There ARE scenarios that are social and intrigued theme already published by Paizo that are PERFECT for this class.

3. There are people who have the talent to GM an appropriately themed campaign on their own.

RainyDayNinja wrote:

LazarX wrote:

Kryzbyn wrote:

Seems that this class would only work well in a game where everyone in the party was a vigilante, and it was almost always in the same large city or area...

And I suspect that a significant amount of Ultimate Intrique will be about running campaigns in that style.

...Which means they're asking us to playtest a class designed for a type of campaign they haven't written yet.

I don't see this as a problem for the following reasons.

1. No one is twisting your arms to play the class.

2. There ARE scenarios that are social and intrigued theme already published by Paizo that are PERFECT for this class.

3. There are people who have the talent to GM an appropriately themed campaign on their own.

It does mean that there's a mechanical context we're not aware of yet, though... for a playtest, that could result in inaccurate data.

Also, I basically did #3 in CoT (with one PC who was basically a vigilante in all but name).

RainyDayNinja wrote:

LazarX wrote:

Kryzbyn wrote:

Seems that this class would only work well in a game where everyone in the party was a vigilante, and it was almost always in the same large city or area...

And I suspect that a significant amount of Ultimate Intrique will be about running campaigns in that style.

...Which means they're asking us to playtest a class designed for a type of campaign they haven't written yet.

I don't see this as a problem for the following reasons.

1. No one is twisting your arms to play the class.

2. There ARE scenarios that are social and intrigued theme already published by Paizo that are PERFECT for this class.

3. There are people who have the talent to GM an appropriately themed campaign on their own.

Well, the goal of a playtest is usually to get as much testing done as possible with as broad of an audience as possible... I don't know what Paizo has in mind with this one, but "This class isn't usable for me." would certainly be considered valuable feedback in many playtesting contexts. And it's not as if they've given us a list of situations they had in mind.

Personally I think it's social guise shouldn't get it's "super powers" such as spells, martial powers, or sneak attack like ability.

I like the idea that the social guise has all or most of the abilities, but when he uses them he risks having his cover get blown. It could make him vulnerable to divination and such.

2. There ARE scenarios that are social and intrigued theme already published by Paizo that are PERFECT for this class.

See also, Kingmaker.

I just realized that all of the strangeness with the social identity starts making sense if your superhero identity is a mechanized suit and your vigilante talents are represented as new tech. Hmm.

I just realized that all of the strangeness with the social identity starts making sense if your superhero identity is a mechanized suit and your vigilante talents are represented as new tech. Hmm.

I have been having trouble taking the vigilante class seriously ever since I started picturing them as power rangers. ;)

Protoman wrote:

Any idea when the PFS chronicle sheet is gonna be available? Or if it can count the times played before the chronicle is available retroactively if it's not out til next week or so?

I anticipate having the Chronicle sheet as part of Monday's blog. I won't make promises about retroactive credit at this time, but I'm inclined to say that allowing it would be okay, given the duration of the playtest.

Any update on this?

"Mad Rush (Ex): Whenever the avenger vigilante charges,
he can make a full attack. Whenever he uses this ability, he
takes a –4 penalty to his AC until the start of his next turn
(in addition to the AC penalty for charging). An avenger
vigilante must be at least 12th level to select this talent."

That's insane. This talent will single-handedly kill any other melee-based martial build, doubly so for dual-wielding after level 12.

I'll be the first to say, martial melee characters *all* need easy access to a pounce-type feature to even begin to compete with archers... but if you give it to one while withholding it from others, there's no point in any other melee-character even showing up to the table.

"Mad Rush (Ex): Whenever the avenger vigilante charges,

he can make a full attack. Whenever he uses this ability, he
takes a –4 penalty to his AC until the start of his next turn
(in addition to the AC penalty for charging). An avenger
vigilante must be at least 12th level to select this talent."

That's insane. This talent will single-handedly kill any other melee-based martial build, doubly so for dual-wielding after level 12.

I'll be the first to say, martial melee characters *all* need easy access to a pounce-type feature to even begin to compete with archers... but if you give it to one while withholding it from others, there's no point in any other melee-character even showing up to the table.

Barbs have had lv10 pounce for a long time, and yet there are still other martials.

"Mad Rush (Ex): Whenever the avenger vigilante charges,

he can make a full attack. Whenever he uses this ability, he
takes a –4 penalty to his AC until the start of his next turn
(in addition to the AC penalty for charging). An avenger
vigilante must be at least 12th level to select this talent."

That's insane. This talent will single-handedly kill any other melee-based martial build, doubly so for dual-wielding after level 12.

I'll be the first to say, martial melee characters *all* need easy access to a pounce-type feature to even begin to compete with archers... but if you give it to one while withholding it from others, there's no point in any other melee-character even showing up to the table.

Every time the Vigilante uses this, he will have a -6 penalty to AC. It would turn him into a glass cannon and probably get him killed.

I do have to ask though: Does that -4 penalty from Mad Rush kick in at the start of the charge or once he starts making the full attack? That is very important because I am sure many avengers are going to foolishly charge creatures with reach.

"Mad Rush (Ex): Whenever the avenger vigilante charges,

he can make a full attack. Whenever he uses this ability, he
takes a –4 penalty to his AC until the start of his next turn
(in addition to the AC penalty for charging). An avenger
vigilante must be at least 12th level to select this talent."

That's insane. This talent will single-handedly kill any other melee-based martial build, doubly so for dual-wielding after level 12.

I'll be the first to say, martial melee characters *all* need easy access to a pounce-type feature to even begin to compete with archers... but if you give it to one while withholding it from others, there's no point in any other melee-character even showing up to the table.

The Mobile Fighter and pounce barbarian are still viable alternatives.

Barbs have had lv10 pounce for a long time, and yet there are still other martials.

Didn't know that, but the point still stands. Expanding the list of classes that get Pounce tacked on without really considering the martials that are getting left out in a cold, doomed to only swing only once if they have to move while Barbarians and Vigilantes put out 4x their damage in the same situation, is going to start to suck for them eventually.

The classes without effective pounce options are

Fighters: joke class
Swashbucklers: joke class
Bloodragers:Are strong enough to stand without pounce
Paladins:Same as Bloodrager
Cavaliers: Mounted charges are better than pounce in 90% of circumstances.
Slayers: The only non-joke martial class missing and needing a method for mobile damage.

Quote:

Barbs have had lv10 pounce for a long time, and yet there are still other martials.

Didn't know that, but the point still stands. Expanding the list of classes that get Pounce tacked on without really considering the martials that are getting left out in a cold, doomed to only swing only once if they have to move while Barbarians and Vigilantes put out 4x their damage in the same situation, is going to start to suck for them eventually.

I'm thinking you don't deal with Pounce that often if you think all 4 attacks are gonna hit. Have you actually seen the damage the avenger can do? Not much at that level compared to others. And this seems very late in the Pathfinder game about one more martial getting pounce-like effect. At this point, folks are happy more options are coming up. But -2 penalty to AC? Bleh

Quote:

Barbs have had lv10 pounce for a long time, and yet there are still other martials.

Didn't know that, but the point still stands. Expanding the list of classes that get Pounce tacked on without really considering the martials that are getting left out in a cold, doomed to only swing only once if they have to move while Barbarians and Vigilantes put out 4x their damage in the same situation, is going to start to suck for them eventually.

It's sucked for them since the game released. It not sucking for some classes anymore doesn't change that.

Quote:

Barbs have had lv10 pounce for a long time, and yet there are still other martials.

Didn't know that, but the point still stands. Expanding the list of classes that get Pounce tacked on without really considering the martials that are getting left out in a cold, doomed to only swing only once if they have to move while Barbarians and Vigilantes put out 4x their damage in the same situation, is going to start to suck for them eventually.

mweh, there will probably be a feat for "amateur vigilante" that allows you to select a second feat to gain a vigilante talent. Also, Pummeling Style exists on top of the barbarian.

I just realized that my favorate part of the Vigilante class is that now I have the Arcane and Divine Rogue variants that I always wanted.