Time to Break Your Chains!

Personally, I've found that the summoner's spell list is a bit overrated. A lot of their spells aren't very effectively simply because they don't have the save DCs that a real 9th level caster has. Having dominate monster with a DC three points lower can cut the chances of it working in half against a lot of targets with high will saves. It only gets worse since a lot of summoners spread their stats so they can be mildly competent at melee combat with that 3/4 BAB.

Though, I guess I never was a big fan of Planar binding and such, so maybe I just wasn't really using their other big spells. All I really wanted from my summoner was the eidolon ;)

Something I've been thinking about... What if they don't nerf the eidolon at all, but "balance" it. What I mean is, what if all they're trying to do is make other options balanced compared to the pouncing monster with max attacks. That actually seems more likely to me.

Also, despite what some people might think about the summoner spell list, I'm interested in what the new spell list is, if supposedly the one they have is the wrong one. Isn't anybody among those calling nerf at least curious?

The Eidolon is FAR from the strongest component of the class.

There's a reason Master Summoner is teh most powerful archetype, despite the fact that its Eidlolon is half as powerful.

The Summoner may not be as good as the full caster classes...but that doesn't mean it's balanced.

I would agree the Master Summoner is highly problematic. I'd say this is precisely because it gets around the limiting factor I mentioned in my last post.

Alexander Augunas wrote:

Here's a couple of questions, if the PDT is feeling talkative.

1) We heard back at GenCon and in various other interviews that an attempt was made at keeping the Unchained classes compatible with as many of those class's existing classes as possible. What's the status on this; does the Unchained Classes Chapter talk about how these classes interact with archetypes?

2) If the answer to the previous question is, "Yes," then how does this bode for the Ninja alternate class? On many different occasions, the Design Team has called alternate classes, "expanded archetypes," so how is the Ninja impacted by all of the changes to the Rogue? Even though the ninja is considered more powerful, the gap isn't a wide margin. Will ninja gain debilitations / rogue edges too?

Unless they specifically state that they get it, they don't. It rewrites the rogue and counts as a rogue, rather than replacing like a regular archetype, so it'd stay the same, except the things they have in common. But I'd let it certainly get a few things at least. I dunno. I hope they do specifically call out Ninja. It's the only alt-class that has to deal with it, unless they hid a few other class rewrites.

The ninja does not "rewrite the rogue." It replaces rogue talents with ninja tricks, advanced talents with master tricks, evasion with ki pool, trapfinding with use poison, and trap sense with no detection. It also replaces the rogue capstone with the ninja capstone.

So no, the alternate class does not blanket rewrite everything, because the ninja class leaves sneak attack and uncanny dodge untouched. Its even been ruled that the ninja can take any rogue archetypes that modify only uncanny dodge, improved uncanny dodge, or sneak attack. (Of which there are only a handful of archetypes, but the scout, which is arguably the best rogue archetype period, exists.)

I think the problem is not the summoner spell list, it is the spells they get are bonkers broken, because they are spells and spells are broken.

Their spell list wouldn't be an issue if their spells were usable without the game becoming garbage

She also gets Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat and the ability to add her Dexterity to weapon damage!

Yes, that's long overdue. Hopefully it only works with finessable weapons otherwise you'll see even more rogues going around with greataxes.

I like the thought of more monk mobility too. I'm hoping these new options will bring both monk and rogue back to viability again. I just rarely ever see these classes being used as far as PFS is concerned.

Buri Reborn wrote:

Paladins get Greater Angelic Aspect as a 4th. That's an 8th level wizard spell. Wand territory there. Omg broken, right? Bestow Grace of the Champion, paladin in a stick, broken, yeah?

It happening once or twice isn't broken (especially since a wand of a 4th level spell is 21000 gold...which would last you only 13 minutes a charge at max), but the Summoner gets a LOT of spells early, is the point. Far too many for the 6th level caster designation to be meaningful.

Likewise BGotC is rounds/level, the same price, and gives relatively minor benefits for what you'd expect for shelling out that kind of cash.

I'm really not sure what point you were trying to make here.

Also, a 4th level spell wand's price is only 21000 gold if you're a wizard. For a PALADIN'S 4th-level spells you're shelling out 30,000 gold.

When does this book come out? pretty soon if the teasers are starting

When does this book come out? pretty soon if the teasers are starting

April 29th. So yes, soon.

Yeah, I've been banning summoners at my table from day 1 after reading the spell list. On top of that, the amorphous blob with 10 tentacles and 2 butts also was hard to digest. I had no problems with summoning "existing" monsters (as the models in ultimate magic), but cherry picking the best traits to create a war machine so powerful that the party fighter might just as well disappear didn't sound right to me.
I really hope the fixed spell list has haste at level 3, greater invisibility at level 4 and other spells like discern location, dominate monster, sympathy, antipathy and mass charm monster eliminated. I really can't get why the summoner should get access to greater invisibility and haste earlier than the bard. It's almost as if the writers of the class cherry picked the best spells and handed them out to the summoner at earlier levels with no apparent reason if not to cheat the 6-level limitation.
I like the "themed eidolon" very much, but I'll have to see the full extent of the spell list fix before leaving the ban to the class at my table.

I have mixed feelings about this upcoming release, the thing is I just started playing a Rogue in PFS, and I've quickly come to realize its severe limitations, but after reading that I'll be getting weapon finesse free, as well as DEX bonus to damage, I have hope that I may actually be able to contribute to battles! The downside is that I now have to stop playing him while I wait for a decision on whether or not it'll all be PFS legal, coz he's just about to go level 2, and I don't wanna risk being lumped with a weaker Rogue then all the inevitable unchained Rogues.

Also, this one blog post has changed my mind from giving this rulebook a pass to a hell yes this is going on my wishlist.

Well... I'll gladly give the book a chance, but I certainly won't preorder it. I'd advise everyone else to do the same.

You do understand that the Summoner is not supposed to be as competent a caster as a full caster, right? The class gets some of the most powerful spells in the game, often at discounted level. In addition to the Eidolon. which is already very powerful on its own...

...And you still insist its spell list is not problematic?

That's some top-tier level of head-in-sand burrowing technique...

I used to think the same thing about it not being an issue, then I built one just because, and then later added info from other people here, and I am now glad I wont be running another campaign until after this new book comes out.

As an aside I am really looking forward to better rogue talents, assuming they were promised, a better rogue, and help for the fighter and monk.

Well... I'll gladly give the book a chance, but I certainly won't preorder it. I'd advise everyone else to do the same.

Your advice seem solid, but I like to live dangerously! Also, who doesn't like hearing "I told you so!" from time to time...?

I am fine with the Summoner getting spells earlier if those spells are actually conjuration school spells. Some of the spells on the list just don't make sense for them to have at all. I also agree that dominate monster should be on the Mesmerist's spell list but not the Summoner's.

Personally, I've found that the summoner's spell list is a bit overrated. A lot of their spells aren't very effectively simply because they don't have the save DCs that a real 9th level caster has. Having dominate monster with a DC three points lower can cut the chances of it working in half against a lot of targets with high will saves. It only gets worse since a lot of summoners spread their stats so they can be mildly competent at melee combat with that 3/4 BAB.

Though, I guess I never was a big fan of Planar binding and such, so maybe I just wasn't really using their other big spells. All I really wanted from my summoner was the eidolon ;)

Spells dont need to force saves to be really good. People that had GM's that would fudge rolls to prolong encounters learned to pick up spells that did not require a save. I learned that during my 3.5 days.

I've been DMing a long time and I agree with Sapient and Buri. The Summoner isn't the problem, it's the people making it look like a problem.

I've been DMing a long time and I agree with Sapient and Buri. The Summoner isn't the problem, it's the people making it look like a problem.

It is not a problem in your game and my games, but that does not make it not a general problem. The floor of a summoner is pretty high, and if someone really wants to optimize it then it is really powerful class. The summoner(not the eidolon) can give himself a lot of attacks, and actually go into melee combat himself. He can summon enough creatures to almost win combat, and that is before the party joins in. Some GM's can handle this, but many can't and even if they can, it may not suit their style of play.

Buri just tried to use other classes, but his comments did nothing to show that the summoner can not cause trouble. They only showed that other classes have powerful things also, but 2 classes having powerful options, does not mean the other is not an issue. I did not see Sapient's comments so I can't say anything about that.

For me the problem is that each and every of my players (and that's 15+ recurring people) picked up the Summoner, tried to wrap their head around it, failed, and never looked twice. If this book makes Summoner more accessible and easier to handle for people, I'll be happy. I get the argument that it was supposed to be an 'advanced' class, but Witch, Cavalier and Oracle are 'advanced' too, and nobody has ever had such problems with them at my table.

One thing I'm curious about is how the new rage mechanic will apply to other classes and creatures which have access to it - for example, my wife's RoW Ranger has a wolverine animalcomp.

I'm very interested to see the changes to the Rogue. I've always liked the Rogue classes! (Which is probably why so many others stole the Rogue's niche. They wanted to be Rogues too!)

Really curious to see these changes and how they interact with the existing rule set and mechanics.

The problem with a summoner in the hands of a new player is that they take 1 hour to level up and 10 minutes to take their turn in combat.

Okay, that was my action. Now my eidolon. *5 minutes later* Okay, now my summoned creatures...

The problem with a summoner in the hands of a new player is that they take 1 hour to level up and 10 minutes to take their turn in combat.

Okay, that was my action. Now my eidolon. *5 minutes later* Okay, now my summoned creatures...

You could have the same issue with a Druid: druid + animal companion + summon nature's ally minions. So it's not just the Summoner, though standard action SLA summoning doesn't help.

This book sounds pretty awesome - probably one of the books I'm most excited about getting right now in fact!

I just sub'd so I could get the PDF asap :)

I just sub'd so I could get the PDF asap :)

Don't hold your breath.

I'm happy with the eidolon being a choice rather than a build. A build's good if you are someone who can wrap their head around how the rules equal the RP. I'm not good at that. I really don't care if my bee-dog plays like a humanoid demon that doesn't break anything for me.

As for the others..........*shrug*. Right now I'm planning something that calls for every PC to have casting levels, so these aren't greatly useful.

OMG
Eric the half a bee eidolon!
<makes notes>

I’m very curious about how the new classes will interact with old archetypes. Since one of my PCs is a Fighter with the Viking archetype I also wonder if the new Rage will be modular enough to plug into such a character. Getting temporary hit points so that you’re less likely to die if your rage suddenly ends sounds pretty good. It also might be the end of the Raging Vitality "feat tax" that many players were paying to provide life insurance on their Barbarians.

I have a couple of PCs who took 2 levels of Monk each mostly to help them qualify for various unarmed strike related feats, so I hope that the Unchained Monk will keep on having bonus feats and Evasion at levels 1 and 2. Otherwise it might be tough for me to adopt the new Monk rules for those PCs. Obviously it has been stressed that you can keep on using the old rules if you want, but leaving cool new stuff untouched because of clunky interactions with the old rules might be disappointing. Hopefully this won't end up being a problem, and luckily I don't think either of those PCs are in a game where the DM is likely to say, "Everybody has to use the new rules" or "If anybody uses the new rules everybody has to" (and Dex to damage for Rogues is something I'm pretty sure the Ninjas in those two games are going to be excited about)

Kryzbyn wrote:

I just sub'd so I could get the PDF asap :)

Don't hold your breath.

:(
I hope you get lucky, but, if you just subscribed, you will actually probably not get it until a few weeks after its actually available for purchase. I signed up for the Giants AP a month or two before it was out, and I am still waiting for part 1 that was out last month sometime.

By any chance is it bundled with another order of yours? That's what caused me to get a delay on one of my subscriptions once.

In your orders, if you de-link from other orders, I think that moves up the delivery date (both the PDF and the shipping date). It does mean you are paying for shipping for each order though.

I don't think one poster saying "don't order it" is going to really stall Paizo sales. I will get the pdf when it comes out, since I only play online anyway.

I don't think one poster saying "don't order it" is going to really stall Paizo sales. I will get the pdf when it comes out, since I only play online anyway.

Pretty much this. I stopped subbing for everything in part due to not wanting to get the first printing of each book with all the errors that come with it. (The fact that second printings still have errors when I pick them up irks me as well.) Now I mostly rely on PDFs for everything, and sold off most of my hard copies to save space. I haven't read the APs in years.

I'm pre-ordering and have no problem being a guinea pig for everyone else. I want the book today if I could get it. Plus, I was lucky enough to get one of the special covers on the Advanced Class Guide when it came out, and it makes me smile every time I see it.

Buying a hard cover would make it hard to trek to a convention for pfs, so waiting for the PDF either way.

I preorder as well, not everything, but a lot of things. I like getting both the hardcopy and the PDF.

Yes. I like both. I like when I'm at home to have the physical copy to read, and take the PDF to games.

I don't preorder because it costs too much taking into account the transatlantic shipping and the late weakness of the euro doesn't help either. However, I'll buy the pdf as soon as it is available, since I like modding my games and most of the stuff is at least worth reading.

If I buy a book directly from Paizo it is usually as just a PDF. I can generally count on other people I play with to pick up hardcovers of at least the major books. That said, even players who don't buy a lot of product can have a strong influence over what games their groups do or don't play, so every customer is important.

Still, if there's a threat to Paizo's sales I suspect it will come from competing RPG makers rather than from Lemmy expressing some disgruntlement. If Unchained shows that Pathfinder will continuously evolve to be more balanced and play better then Paizo will probably do very well. If not then the good reviews coming through the grapevine about a competitor's newest rule set will probably get checked out more thoroughly by more groups.

That's not entitlement. It is just business. I'm guessing Paizo understands that and will try their best to put out quality products which appeal to their customers and fix perceived problems.

Removed some heated posts and responses to them.

Still, if there's a threat to Paizo's sales I suspect it will come from competing RPG makers rather than from Lemmy expressing some disgruntlement.

Wait... You mean my forum posts have no significant economical impaxt on a huge company?! Damnit, Devilkiller! Why do you have to crush my dreams?

^^

If Unchained shows that Pathfinder will continuously evolve to be more balanced and play better then Paizo will probably do very well.

Here is hoping! I really look forward to wanting to play a Rogue... And a Summoner that won't be banned in 90% of all games I'm invited to join. ><'

(never had a problem with Barbarians, though).

That's not entitlement. It is just business. I'm guessing Paizo understands that and will try their best to put out quality products which appeal to their customers and fix perceived problems.

Gotta admit... This book is a pretty big deal for me... It might make me recover some of the faith I lost in Paizo after the ACG... Or it can make me give up once and for all. :(

I do honestly expect PF:U to be a great book... But I'm just not confident enough to preorder it. Not after Mythic and the ACG... Still, I'll check it out and, if it's indeed a good product, buy both the print version and the HeroLab pack. Because having the version that uses the most obsolete technology and the version with the most modern and practical tech is just how I roll... Heh...

Just curious... What are some souped-up rogue skills people would like to see? Super-acrobatics seems like it could be a good fit.

Super stealth.

OMG

Eric the half a bee eidolon!
<makes notes>

I preordered. Given what I've seen and heard so far I think this book is right up my alley. I don't think Paizo is willing to start making a new edition and many players are apprehensive about such a thing to so this is a nice compromise as a way to introduce ways that Paizo could have dealt with elements in the game that they are concerned about without disrupting the game itself or their bottom line. Also it emphasizes and encourages us to make the game our own by putting in alternatives we like in place of aspects we don't like which I think is the real spirit of 3rd edition and why it has prevailed for so long even as it shifted to 3.5 and as Pathfinder.