Time to Break Your Chains!

Sebastian Hirsch wrote:

I love the orginal summoner class (and the primal companion hunter archetype) but they aren't exactly balanced. However, I think going full Angel Summoner is a bit crazy.

The other classes might not want to feel like BMX Bandit.

100 points to you for those references. I love that show...

I wonder if Angel Summoner can summon angels with two butts...

Also, I was wondering... Could we get some insight on if standard action summoning is gone? If it is I might actually open this summoner up as a player option in my games again.

Lemmy wrote:

You aren't "fixing" the Fighter by adding super long feat chains, are you?

Nah. But wouldn't it be cool to get more out of taking those existing super long chains if you're willing to shell out the feats for them? Because I think so!

For me, maybe in theory, but no, not so much in practice, as the more feats there are, the more opportunities there are for the feats to not fit together well, get misinterpreted, to get passed over in comparing relative strength and weakness in comparison to other feats, or to just be duds.

In addition, having long feat chains can make establishing changes in one feat in the chain require considerable more complexity by way of how it interacts with other feats in the chain. The crane style feats are one example of what I speak of.

Mark Seifter wrote:

Lemmy wrote:

You aren't "fixing" the Fighter by adding super long feat chains, are you?

Nah. But wouldn't it be cool to get more out of taking those existing super long chains if you're willing to shell out the feats for them? Because I think so!

For me, maybe in theory, but no, not so much in practice, as the more feats there are, the more opportunities there are for the feats to not fit together well, get misinterpreted, to get passed over in comparing relative strength and weakness in comparison to other feats, or to just be duds.

In addition, having long feat chains can make establishing changes in one feat in the chain require considerable more complexity by way of how it interacts with other feats in the chain. The crane style feats are one example of what I speak of.

Not to mention how long it can take to get to some of those feats. If you're not going to be able to realistically complete the chain by twelfth level it's to long.

Jason Bulmahn wrote:

Sebastian Hirsch wrote:

I love the orginal summoner class (and the primal companion hunter archetype) but they aren't exactly balanced. However, I think going full Angel Summoner is a bit crazy.

The other classes might not want to feel like BMX Bandit.

100 points to you for those references. I love that show...

I wonder if Angel Summoner can summon angels with two butts...

As long as they have ten thousand eyes, six wings, seven heads, and eight horns.

As per usual, we can never please everyone...

... especially when people jump to conclusions based on nothing more than a preview teaser?

...

...

That's the long held traditional end of that quote, right? :D

O.O What is with the two butts thing!? did the messageboards move to the genetic engineering laboratory in South Park?

I will just mention that I would put this book down as "very well received" by people who have had early access to it for, uh... various reasons.

Who says blackmail is immoral, I ask you? :D

"Look out, summoners! They're goona put you all back in chains!"

In any case, I am looking forward to seeing which parts of this book can be slipped into an ongoing Pathfinder campaign seamlessly and which parts would have too many ripple effects to do that. The lack of restraint by backwards compatibility implies that there will be at least a few rules systems of the latter type.

Unpublished/beta. I believe spells like level 2 Haste were added late into the cycle. The summoner was not originally intended to have access to 9th level spells in disguise, just the summoning ones from full casters.

I didn't realize Antipathy, Dominate Monster, and Teleportation Circle were so game breaking one whole level earlier than a wizard.

Also, I was wondering... Could we get some insight on if standard action summoning is gone? If it is I might actually open this summoner up as a player option in my games again.

Even if it isn't, it might be compatible with the Spirit Summoner archetype from Advanced Class Guide? Since it trades out the summon monster spell-like ability, it might be acceptable if that's a hangup.

What I want to know is can these Unchained versions still be able to take some of the archetypes and qualify for what their Core counterparts can? (like feats and prestige classes and such)

Xethik wrote:

Unpublished/beta. I believe spells like level 2 Haste were added late into the cycle. The summoner was not originally intended to have access to 9th level spells in disguise, just the summoning ones from full casters.

I didn't realize Antipathy, Dominate Monster, and Teleportation Circle were so game breaking one whole level earlier than a wizard.

My thoughts exactly, I never saw their spell list as game breaking in any form. So Haste is a little cheaper as a potion now, whoop dee doo. That few hundred GP is really so game breaking

I'm curious about archetypes too. If the Monk has full BAB it's even more of an attractive dip for it's shortcuts to feats.

Buri Reborn wrote:

Xethik wrote:

Unpublished/beta. I believe spells like level 2 Haste were added late into the cycle. The summoner was not originally intended to have access to 9th level spells in disguise, just the summoning ones from full casters.

I didn't realize Antipathy, Dominate Monster, and Teleportation Circle were so game breaking one whole level earlier than a wizard.

My thoughts exactly, I never saw their spell list as game breaking in any form. So Haste is a little cheaper as a potion now, whoop dee doo. That few hundred GP is really so game breaking

I think the problem only really came in when people used shenanigans to get that spell added back to their list early. I never looked at the summoner spell list enough to see where that problem might come from.

Still would certainly not mind if Mr. Everyman became a valid concept for the Fighter, though.

I'm not already a perfectly valid concept for the fighter?

Arachnofiend wrote:

Still would certainly not mind if Mr. Everyman became a valid concept for the Fighter, though.

I'm not already a perfectly valid concept for the fighter?

No, you aren't. Mr. Everyman only works in an optimized party if Mr. Everyman is a Slayer. The Fighter without any archetypes that give weird specialized boosts just isn't good as currently written.

I wonder if Angel Summoner can summon angels with two butts...

That would explain why they're invisible.....

I'm really hoping they have fixes for the stealth skill.

I'll wait to see how much of it PFS adopts before I consider buying the book.

Hmmm. It just occured to me that as a test, the three classes are fixing/improving.

Two too weak (the rogue)
One too strong (the summoner)
and One Just right (the barbarian)

Either that or I'm suddenly hungry for porridge.

Barachiel Shina wrote:

Buri Reborn wrote:

Xethik wrote:

Unpublished/beta. I believe spells like level 2 Haste were added late into the cycle. The summoner was not originally intended to have access to 9th level spells in disguise, just the summoning ones from full casters.

I didn't realize Antipathy, Dominate Monster, and Teleportation Circle were so game breaking one whole level earlier than a wizard.

My thoughts exactly, I never saw their spell list as game breaking in any form. So Haste is a little cheaper as a potion now, whoop dee doo. That few hundred GP is really so game breaking

I think the problem only really came in when people used shenanigans to get that spell added back to their list early. I never looked at the summoner spell list enough to see where that problem might come from.

Can someone explain, with a bit of detail, why the summoner list is considered problematic? My experience is limited, and I'm just not that familiar with the issue.

Can someone explain, with a bit of detail, why the summoner list is considered problematic? My experience is limited, and I'm just not that familiar with the issue.

-The eidolon alone is a strong fighter

-The eidolon is complicated to build. This presents several problems of errrors, mistakes by the player that make it considerably stronger, "mistakes" by the player that make it considerably stronger,

-The customizability of the eidolon leads to a lot of powerful options that are hard to see by the developers. A well built eidolon will blow most well built melee out of the water.

-The eidolons lack themes. If you have a 4 legged thing with two arms that uses two greatswords to charge pounce your outsider kind of lacks an identity. Its not an angel its not a devil its not acat thing its just a collection of stats.

-even IF you kill the eidolon, standard action summons drops another monster almost as strong if not stronger right onto the map.

-The Summoner itself is a 9th level caster carefully disguised as a 6th level caster. Its spell list contains a number of spells that are underleved, such as second level haste and third level black tentacles. This means that they effectively progress spell levels FASTER than a wizard while being a spontaneous caster. The lower level spells also act weirdly, like being able to use lesser metamagic rods on black tentacles to get a dazing black tentacles for a mere 4k gold.

-

People take issue it gets spells both 1 character level sooner than its contemporaries and that for its compressed list means certain items can be crafted than before the class was introduced. For example, wands of teleport. All that somehow breaks the game. Or, they feel the summoner is overly privileged somehow likely because of many misunderstandings with the eidolon. That it was referred to off-handedly as a thing with ten tentacles and two butts was kind of disheartening as if that's all it is.

Also, haste as a level 2 spell.

Monk as a full BAB class? Wooww....

Flying kick? Is this a pounce-like ability? Sounds awesome.

The rogue getting cool, unique ROGUE-like stuff? Very cool.

I'm not sure how they can simplify the barbarian's math. It seems like, currently, it requires a second alternative melee stat block to get increased power. I'm thinking that maybe it gets a scaling bonus to damage? Still, my interest is piqued.

About the barbarian being most likely to die, I would love to flatter myself by thinking I made the original observation, but I'm sure somebody has been pointing this out long before me. Still, I feel a little bit vindicated (most of the commenters disagreed with me).

I want this NOW!!!!

I really hope the Rogue gets redeemed in this book. I'm definately going to get my PDF. But, if it's got some much needed Rogue love, I'll probably by a Book copy to show to my friends.

On an aside, is there any chance that the Rogue can gain a strong pool of abilities for countering mages? I really like the idea of a rakish character being able to throw off these Omega-Threat enemies, with wit and guile. A different sort of genius to fight a genius.

Awesome.

Now, if only Stealth was fixed to not assume every character has eyes on all sides of their heads that never blink. Then, we can actually play stealthy characters without having to rely on invisibility magic.

People take issue it gets spells both 1 character level sooner than its contemporaries and that for its compressed list means certain items can be crafted than before the class was introduced. For example, wands of teleport. All that somehow breaks the game. Or, they feel the summoner is overly privileged somehow likely because of many misunderstandings with the eidolon. That it was referred to off-handedly as a thing with ten tentacles and two butts was kind of disheartening as if that's all it is.

No one is worried about wands of teleport or the cost of a potion of haste. The problem was that the summoner is a 6 level caster with 3/4 BAB and good class features. It's casting is supposed to be roughly on par with a bard, inquisitor, or magus. Instead it was nearly as good as a 9 level caster, but with a powerful free sidekick.

BNW is quite accurate when he says its a 9 level caster disguised as a 6 level caster.

About the barbarian being most likely to die, I would love to flatter myself by thinking I made the original observation, but I'm sure somebody has been pointing this out long before me. Still, I feel a little bit vindicated (most of the commenters disagreed with me).

I want this NOW!!!!

This is a common assertion, but it's only partially true at best.

Barbarians are not "the most likely to die" because they die when their Rage HP run out. If they hadn't had those HP, they would have been dead anyway from taking that much damage.

As for "it doesn't make sense", it does if you look at it from the inspirational roots, the berserker who fights in a blind fury and doesn't notice his wounds until the adrenaline has worn off...t which point he dies of blood loss, the fury being the only thing that kept him conscious until then.

Not saying the temp HP isn't a simpler thing, but it's not like the current way is nonsensical in the least.

No one is worried about wands of teleport or the cost of a potion of haste. The problem was that the summoner is a 6 level caster with 3/4 BAB and good class features. It's casting is supposed to be roughly on par with a bard, inquisitor, or magus. Instead it was nearly as good as a 9 level caster, but with a powerful free sidekick.

BNW is quite accurate when he says its a 9 level caster disguised as a 6 level caster.

The summoner list is nowhere near as capable or vicious as an actual 9th level caster.

Yes, they are, because rage HP go away when they lose consciousness. You're right that without the free HP they'd be dead anyway, but what you're forgetting is that without the free HP they might have been at negative already, and most enemies favor attacking targets that are still standing.

Also, if you can't count on the Bonus HP to keep you alive, what good are they? If the intent was to give a handful of bonus hp and you die when they are gone, Diehard is a feat that has a lot less math.

What is raging vitality?

What is raging vitality?

An awesome Feat.

Ross Byers wrote:

No one is worried about wands of teleport or the cost of a potion of haste. The problem was that the summoner is a 6 level caster with 3/4 BAB and good class features. It's casting is supposed to be roughly on par with a bard, inquisitor, or magus. Instead it was nearly as good as a 9 level caster, but with a powerful free sidekick.

BNW is quite accurate when he says its a 9 level caster disguised as a 6 level caster.

The summoner list is nowhere near as capable or vicious as an actual 9th level caster.

Summoners get Create Demiplane on their spell list.

No other 6th-level caster gets Create Demiplane on their spell list.

They also get Dominate Monster, Simulacrum, and Maze. Again, all these spells don't show up on any other 6th-level caster's spell list. In fact, they're all 7th and 8th level wizard spells.

Oh, and of course they can cast Gate as a spell-like ability too. Can't forget that.

To be fair, Inquisitors get Overwhelming Presence as a 6th...and a whole class level before Wizards.

But those sorts of things are few and far between on the Inquisitor, Bard, and Magus lists. They're the norm for the Summoner list.

Yeah. Other 6th level casters get very specific spells as early entry that fit the flavor of the class; the Summoner gets to cherry-pick all the best wizard spells to get at the same time as a Wizard would.

Paladins get Greater Angelic Aspect as a 4th. That's an 8th level wizard spell. Wand territory there. Omg broken, right? Bestow Grace of the Champion, paladin in a stick, broken, yeah?

Buri Reborn wrote:

Ross Byers wrote:

No one is worried about wands of teleport or the cost of a potion of haste. The problem was that the summoner is a 6 level caster with 3/4 BAB and good class features. It's casting is supposed to be roughly on par with a bard, inquisitor, or magus. Instead it was nearly as good as a 9 level caster, but with a powerful free sidekick.

BNW is quite accurate when he says its a 9 level caster disguised as a 6 level caster.

The summoner list is nowhere near as capable or vicious as an actual 9th level caster.

Summoners get Create Demiplane on their spell list.

No other 6th-level caster gets Create Demiplane on their spell list.

They also get Dominate Monster, Simulacrum, and Maze. Again, all these spells don't show up on any other 6th-level caster's spell list. In fact, they're all 7th and 8th level wizard spells.

Oh, and of course they can cast Gate as a spell-like ability too. Can't forget that.

It should be noted that Dominate Monster SHOULD show up on the Mesmerist spell list (I'll be a bit disappointed if it doesn't, honestly). I am also not necessarily against Simulacrum making that same spell list. But It is true that "The summoner list is nowhere near as capable or vicious as an actual 9th level caster." is an unequivocally misleading (and kinda disingenuous) statement. Between Planar Binding spells, The summon spells (possibly, depending on reading, faster then normal casting), antipathy, discern location (why is nearly the best divination spell on a CONJURATION based class's spell list? If you want to divine something, call something!), Spell Turning (geez...), Repulsion (Hey, atleast it allows a save unlike Antilife shell I suppose)...

While you are correct on the most technical level, the summoner's spell list is not as "capable" (you know, other the having planar binding basically close up most of the holes in my spell list) or as "vicious" (Create pit spells - hallmark of vicious spells, haste - a lower Spell Level then everyone else, A Character Level earlier, AND a guarenteed target that will happy to receive the buff [your eidolon], and maze - spell that says "Your fighter or cleric (who didn't prepare a find the path) should go away for 1 round/level"... nope not vicious at all...) as a 9th level caster, that's really selling what spells the Summoner DOES get (essentially some of the most powerful and versatile spells in the game) extremely short if you don't think the spell list isn't a problem.

Paladins get Greater Angelic Aspect as a 4th. That's an 8th level wizard spell. Wand territory there. Omg broken, right? Bestow Grace of the Champion, paladin in a stick, broken, yeah?

It happening once or twice isn't broken (especially since a wand of a 4th level spell is 21000 gold...which would last you only 13 minutes a charge at max), but the Summoner gets a LOT of spells early, is the point. Far too many for the 6th level caster designation to be meaningful.

Likewise BGotC is rounds/level, the same price, and gives relatively minor benefits for what you'd expect for shelling out that kind of cash.

I'm really not sure what point you were trying to make here.

Yup, all those things one level before a full caster. Totes broken. So broken it ruins the game. How ever will it go on? Can it be saved?! Spare me...

Yup, all those things one level before a full caster. Totes broken. So broken it ruins the game. How ever will it go on? Can it be saved?! Spare me...

I'm going to ask you to leave, calm down, and come back when you're ready to discuss things like an adult. Kthxbye.

You do understand that the Summoner is not supposed to be as competent a caster as a full caster, right? The class gets some of the most powerful spells in the game, often at discounted level. In addition to the Eidolon. which is already very powerful on its own...

...And you still insist its spell list is not problematic?

That's some top-tier level of head-in-sand burrowing technique...

On a class that get's a build a monster that is well documented at being more capable then the party's fighty man? Gets nearly as many standard action summon monster spells as it wants when that pet is brought down? Has excellent mobility thanks to its dimension door class features? Yeah there is kinda a problem, the whole "a level earlier then normal casters receive the spell" is a BIG problem... and it's quite possibly the smallest of ALL the problems that class has.

Here's a couple of questions, if the PDT is feeling talkative.

1) We heard back at GenCon and in various other interviews that an attempt was made at keeping the Unchained classes compatible with as many of those class's existing classes as possible. What's the status on this; does the Unchained Classes Chapter talk about how these classes interact with archetypes?

2) If the answer to the previous question is, "Yes," then how does this bode for the Ninja alternate class? On many different occasions, the Design Team has called alternate classes, "expanded archetypes," so how is the Ninja impacted by all of the changes to the Rogue? Even though the ninja is considered more powerful, the gap isn't a wide margin. Will ninja gain debilitations / rogue edges too?

Yup, all those things one level before a full caster. Totes broken. So broken it ruins the game. How ever will it go on? Can it be saved?! Spare me...

In all seriousness, often by banning Summoner. Which is part of why we've got Summoner in Unchained.

Here's a couple of questions, if the PDT is feeling talkative.

1) We heard back at GenCon and in various other interviews that an attempt was made at keeping the Unchained classes compatible with as many of those class's existing classes as possible. What's the status on this; does the Unchained Classes Chapter talk about how these classes interact with archetypes?

2) If the answer to the previous question is, "Yes," then how does this bode for the Ninja alternate class? On many different occasions, the Design Team has called alternate classes, "expanded archetypes," so how is the Ninja impacted by all of the changes to the Rogue? Even though the ninja is considered more powerful, the gap isn't a wide margin. Will ninja gain debilitations / rogue edges too?

Unless they specifically state that they get it, they don't. It rewrites the rogue and counts as a rogue, rather than replacing like a regular archetype, so it'd stay the same, except the things they have in common. But I'd let it certainly get a few things at least. I dunno. I hope they do specifically call out Ninja. It's the only alt-class that has to deal with it, unless they hid a few other class rewrites.

Buri Reborn wrote:

Yup, all those things one level before a full caster. Totes broken. So broken it ruins the game. How ever will it go on? Can it be saved?! Spare me...

In all seriousness, often by banning Summoner. Which is part of why we've got Summoner in Unchained.

Yup. I've never allowed Summoners in my games for pretty much all the reasons mentioned in this thread. I'm pretty excited by what I've read over the past year regarding the potential changes coming in this book and am hopeful that I'll be able to lift that restriction.

How much of the Summoner problem would be solved by moving it to a 9 level caster and having those few early powerful spells delayed to when other casters get them?

It seems to me that some of the Summoner's strengths are moderated by the fact that he can't summon monsters when the Eidolon is active. The summon monster SLA brings in a lot of versatility, but at the expense of releasing the strongest component of the class.

I guess I'm not really convinced the base Summoner is more powerful than the full caster classes. The bigger problem, in my limited experience, is that it doesn't play as nice in a party, taking up more time and stepping on the toes of other classes.

It also looks like Rogue is going to be competent in melee without needing a ton of feat investment. Anybody else seeing nice potential for a nine-tailed kitsune build?

The Eidolon is FAR from the strongest component of the class.

There's a reason Master Summoner is teh most powerful archetype, despite the fact that its Eidlolon is half as powerful.

The Summoner may not be as good as the full caster classes...but that doesn't mean it's balanced.