Advanced Class Guide Preview: Arcanist

Man, at this rate, we're going to be lucky if Paizo ever bothers to write another preview post ever again.

It doesn't really do Paizo much good to interact with the community if they're not open to criticism, y'know...

They take criticism all the time, and yet in the vast majority of those threads Jason Bulmahn doesn't feel it necessary to come in and ask people to tone the vitriol down.

Frankly, if you think "criticism" is the right word for the bile being spewed in this thread and the warpriest one, I think the internet has badly skewed your definition of the term.

Is there at least a reason to use Charisma at all now? I'd like to know that. :)

I think the question may be worth asking...

If we were starting from scratch, would we need two classes to cover the "full progression arcane caster" niche?

Or would that role be better filled by one class with a plethora of options that allowed it to fulfill a variety of Character concepts, including those currently done by sorcerer and wizard?

In short, if Arcanist is Wizard/Sorcerer 2.0 (and any ground it makes over the current power standouts is not honestly terribly relevant, with how far ahead they are), are we sure that's a bad thing?

Maybe we don't need 2 classes where one will suffice.

The internet quakes in fear from all of the "factual opinions" given in this thread. /sarcasm *rollseyes*

I think the question may be worth asking...

If we were starting from scratch, would we need two classes to cover the "full progression arcane caster" niche?

Or would that role be better filled by one class with a plethora of options that allowed it to fulfill a variety of Character concepts, including those currently done by sorcerer and wizard?

In short, if Arcanist is Wizard/Sorcerer 2.0 (and any ground it makes over the current power standouts is not honestly terribly relevant, with how far ahead they are), are we sure that's a bad thing?

Maybe we don't need 2 classes where one will suffice.

I actually agree with that sentiment. One flexible class>>>two classes that can do half of what that class can.

If he gets spells known/day from INT and spell DCs from CHA it may be even a general step down by making the caster class less SAD. Broken exploits like quick study not withstanding.

Those archetypes sound very interesting! The arcanist just got a bump for me.

I'm just here to note the similarities between Quick Study and the Magus' Improved Spell Recall though they do share a few differences. Here's the similarity I see:

... Furthermore, instead of recalling a used spell, as a swift action the magus can prepare a spell of the same level that he has in his spellbook. He does so by expending a number of points from his arcane pool equal to the spell’s level (minimum 1). The magus cannot apply metamagic feats to a spell prepared in this way. The magus does not need to reference his spellbook to prepare a spell in this way.

As long as this doesn't trump the Magus' Lvl 11 ability, that's fine.

Of course, the differences I mentioned make the Arcanist's Quick study fine at a lower level given it's a full round that provokes and requires the spell book.

On another note, as a Black Blade player, I look forward to seeing the Blade Adept.

The Magus spell list doesn't even compare to a 9/9 arcane caster list. Not to mention the cost in points for that matter.

Guess we'll find out in August. I'm excited, so far. Haven't seen a class yet I wouldn't play.

I think I know what my next PFS character is going to be. I just need to see the archetypes.

Nice work on the preview post this week. I'm glad you guys showed some specific exploits and described the archetypes in some detail. Makes me excited about the class.

It does seem to me that there are some balance issues, but I also think that I might eliminate Sorcerers and Wizards and make Arcanists the new Arcane Paradigm, depending on the final product. I like the idea of having access to all the spells via spellbook, but I am not a fan of Vancian memorization. Memorizing a few but casting them at will is right up my alley.

Serghar Cromwell wrote:

Insain Dragoon wrote:

Serghar Cromwell wrote:

I am now even more baffled by the decision to nerf the warpriest.

If it has a 9/9 spell progression then Paizo loves it like a firstborn son in China.

That's very true, but I never imagined they'd go so far as to make Schrödinger's Wizard a reality and call it balanced.

Oh you have seen the final version of the class. How cool. Can you give us more updates?

Is it still MAD or is it using charisma to cast spells?

Um no....

He uses primarily Int, Cha is a secondary stat that doesn't need to buffed beyond a certain point. You only need a medium dex and Con to hit with rays and because everyone loves con. They are still less MAD than pretyt much every martial (except for the Loradin build...)

Oh.. that Elemental master... it is gonna get scary...

I can just see thing:

Crosblooded Sorcerer (Dragonic/Orc) 1
Elemental master Arcanist X
Bloodline Development (Elemental or one of the Genies)

You thought the Sorc 1/Wizard X blaster got scary...

Add in that Arcanists can crank up DCs/CLs AND are some of the best at abusing meta-magic... things are gonna get scary in the blaster world....

Good!

I've been playtesting the Arcanist through levels 1 to 6 for the past five months and frankly it plays the way I want all primary casters to play - you can skip the extensive homework required by vancian spellcasting and you're not shooting yourself in the foot if you pick the wrong spells for your fixed spell list. It's a fun and flexible class. While it is in my opinion better designed and much more gameplay-friendly than the wizard and the sorcerer, I don't find it to be dramatically more powerful.

That said, I think the class could benefit from more emphasis on Charisma, since at the moment you lose very little by dumping cha through the floor.

^The above is based on the Revised play test version of the class.

I've been playtesting the Arcanist through levels 1 to 6 for the past five months and frankly it plays the way I want all primary casters to play - you can skip the extensive homework required by vancian spellcasting and you're not shooting yourself in the foot if you pick the wrong spells for your fixed spell list. It's a fun and flexible class. While it is in my opinion better designed and much more gameplay-friendly than the wizard and the sorcerer, I don't find it to be dramatically more powerful.

That said, I think the class could benefit from more emphasis on Charisma, since at the moment you lose very little by dumping cha through the floor.

^The above is based on the Revised play test version of the class.

This is kindof what I was wondering about, and it kindof supports my musing about the class being 'arcane caster 2.0'

It may not be a bad thing if it replaces wizard and sorcerer if it's more fun than both.

I've yet to be convinced if it's Increase in power is an issue, since it's a drop in the bucket against the lead full casters already have and has the sorcerer reduction in spell progression built in.

About this sentient sword archetype: if I dip bladebound magus can I dual wield intelligent weapons? What happens if they don't get along?

Screw castard/martialfail disparity, this means you can have a party with a White Mage, a Blue Mage, a Red Mage and a Dragoon.

Arcanists have painfully few prepared spells at a time.

Taking Quick Study just means you can actually use some of your situational or utility spells.

Full round action plus retrieving your spell book means you probably won't do it in combat unless a TPK is the alternative. (Which I don't think the playtest version required. This isn't a buff: it was around before.)

Since it costs arcane points, you can't use it all the live-long day, either, and it removes your ability to use other cool powers.

I am curious about the final power level of the arcanist, but this does not make me more worried.

Screw castard/martialfail disparity, this means you can have a party with a White Mage, a Blue Mage, a Red Mage and a Dragoon.

Red Mage?

Who's the Dragoon?

I have to say that I really love the idea of the arcanist since I have always *hated* the way prepared casters work. I just hope that this isn't going to be yet another class where I have to hold back on my power every minute that I'm playing it in order to not ruin things for the other players.

Gorbacz wrote:

Screw castard/martialfail disparity, this means you can have a party with a White Mage, a Blue Mage, a Red Mage and a Dragoon.

Red Mage?

Bard or Inquisitor fits the theme of Red Mage really well, Maybe one of those?

About this sentient sword archetype: if I dip bladebound magus can I dual wield intelligent weapons? What happens if they don't get along?

They ultimately decide to reconcile their differences by gutting YOU. And then the scene fades as the weapons have a bromance moment over your bleeding corpse.

Gorbacz wrote:

Screw castard/martialfail disparity, this means you can have a party with a White Mage, a Blue Mage, a Red Mage and a Dragoon.

Red Mage?

Red Mages are from Final Fantasy and the are essentially Mystic Thuerges that do not get the highest level spells.

I think the question may be worth asking...

If we were starting from scratch, would we need two classes to cover the "full progression arcane caster" niche?

Or would that role be better filled by one class with a plethora of options that allowed it to fulfill a variety of Character concepts, including those currently done by sorcerer and wizard?

In short, if Arcanist is Wizard/Sorcerer 2.0 (and any ground it makes over the current power standouts is not honestly terribly relevant, with how far ahead they are), are we sure that's a bad thing?

Maybe we don't need 2 classes where one will suffice.

Monte Cook's Arcana Unearthed (and later the extended version Arcana Evolved) had one full-arcane-magic class, the Magister. It was more or less like the Arcanist, minus Arcane Resevoir and exploits, but with spell progression like a wizard. You memorized your spells at the beginning of the day, and then during the day you could spontaneously cast each of your memorized spells as many times as you want within the level slots available.

(The magic system also included rules for casting a spell at a higher and lower level-- similar in some ways to metamagic feats, except that they were available to all casters.)

I always liked this system. In terms of fluff, I'm very drawn to the studious, book-learnin' wizard. But, despite having all these great spells in them, the wizard often can't do much because he didn't have the plot foresight that Jack Vance had when writing for his characters to prepare the right spells for the day. The Magister was great for that; no more using up multiple slots on copies of the combat spells you have to have prepared just in case combat happens. Overall, I really liked Arcana Unearthed, and its slightly-different take on the core classes, I have to say. Kind of a pity that it's basically all but forgotten now.

Ross Byers wrote:

Gorbacz wrote:

Screw castard/martialfail disparity, this means you can have a party with a White Mage, a Blue Mage, a Red Mage and a Dragoon.

Red Mage?

Red Mages are from Final Fantasy and the are essentially Mystic Thuerges that do not get the highest level spells.

Red Mages are actually good in combat though. I think a Magus with some support spells is a good guesstimate.

Ultimately, we decided on making the arcanist about tinkering with the underlying forces of arcane magic, using a combination of study and innate talent to break magic down and shape it to fit her needs.

That reminds me a lot of the Diablo 3 wizard background. Experiments with unstable arcane energies and so on.

Man I would love a blue mage like class. It would be awesome to learn the special abilities of monsters that you are fighting/observing.

Monte Cook's Arcana Unearthed (and later the extended version Arcana Evolved) had one full-arcane-magic class, the Magister. It was more or less like the Arcanist, minus Arcane Resevoir and exploits, but with spell progression like a wizard. You memorized your spells at the beginning of the day, and then during the day you could spontaneously cast each of your memorized spells as many times as you want within the level slots available.

(The magic system also included rules for casting a spell at a higher and lower level-- similar in some ways to metamagic feats, except that they were available to all casters.)

I always liked this system. In terms of fluff, I'm very drawn to the studious, book-learnin' wizard. But, despite having all these great spells in them, the wizard often can't do much because he didn't have the plot foresight that Jack Vance had when writing for his characters to prepare the right spells for the day. The Magister was great for that; no more using up multiple slots on copies of the combat spells you have to have prepared just in case combat happens. Overall, I really liked Arcana Unearthed, and its slightly-different take on the core classes, I have to say. Kind of a pity that it's basically all but forgotten now.

Pretty much exactly how D&D 5E wizards cast. Prepare a number of spells equal to Int bonus plus wizard level. Cast any prepared spell using spell slots. Spells scale and can be cast as higher level (to increase fireball damage for example).

Strangely enough, 5E wizards can also recover a few spells a day during a short rest.

Who's the Dragoon?

The fighter has a Dragoon archetype. Even has what appears to be a nod to the final fantasy dragoon called Leaping Lance.

brad2411 wrote:

Ross Byers wrote:

Gorbacz wrote:

Screw castard/martialfail disparity, this means you can have a party with a White Mage, a Blue Mage, a Red Mage and a Dragoon.

Red Mage?

Red Mages are from Final Fantasy and the are essentially Mystic Thuerges that do not get the highest level spells.

Red Mages are actually good in combat though. I think a Magus with some support spells is a good guesstimate.

I've always seen it as more of a combat-built bard, more than a Magus. They lack the perform mechanic, but they have the Jack of all Trades feel, the blend of White and Black magic, the decent, though not spectacular, combat ability, and the fancy hat, which put together seems more bardic than Magus.

I think some folks here might be reading a bit much into a relatively short preview. The class is good, but its not quite as powerful as some are making it out to be.

Lets just take the rhetoric down a notch.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer

Sorry, Jason, but given the information available to us, there is nothing unreasonable about what we go from this preview.

Just being a prepared full caster with access to the Sorcerer/Wizard list is enough to make any class incredibly versatile and far more powerful than most other classes. Giving it "spontaneous prepared" casting pushes it even further up. Increasing CL and DC of their spell is very powerful too, Arcane exploits include stuff like teleporting as move action, effective counter-spelling, a better version of quick study, ignoring spell effects for a few rounds, etc.

Now, seeing from this preview, they got buffed even more, as if they weren't the most powerful class in the playtest already.

Unless you guys added some completely unexpected weakness or really big nerf to it, there is no way Arcanists won't be extremely powerful... I don't see anything other than particularly clever and optimized Wizards and Clerics being capable of holding a candle to it.

Unless you count Sorcerer/Oracle using the Paragon Surge loophole (which remains open and perfectly functional to this day, for some reason). Something that is banned by basically every GM.

I had no major balance-related criticism about any other ACG class, but Arcanists, at least as they were in the 2nd version of the playtest, just throw any pretense of game balance out the window.

Oh.. that Elemental master... it is gonna get scary...

I can just see thing:

Crosblooded Sorcerer (Dragonic/Orc) 1
Elemental master Arcanist X
Bloodline Development (Elemental or one of the Genies)

You thought the Sorc 1/Wizard X blaster got scary...

Add in that Arcanists can crank up DCs/CLs AND are some of the best at abusing meta-magic... things are gonna get scary in the blaster world....

Here's the thing to remember though.... The Arcanist (or any of the other classes in the ACG playtest) CAN'T multiclass with a class that makes up it's core. In the case of the Arcanist, there can be no Sorcerer/Arcanist or Wizard/Arcanist characters without house ruling it.....

Just a thought. :)

The class sounds like a lot of fun to play. However, I share the same concerns of others about its balance. I hope it has a sizable price to pay for its versatility. I was already worried it would make sorcerers obsolete, but making wizards obsolete?

I was interested in the ACG, but these previews are making me excited about the book! Kudos!

Side note, I really appreciate all of the energy from the number-cruncher folks who work on making these classes the best they can be! But now, forget all that, and let's enjoy the fruits of the labor.

rknop wrote:

Monte Cook's Arcana Unearthed (and later the extended version Arcana Evolved) had one full-arcane-magic class, the Magister. It was more or less like the Arcanist, minus Arcane Resevoir and exploits, but with spell progression like a wizard. You memorized your spells at the beginning of the day, and then during the day you could spontaneously cast each of your memorized spells as many times as you want within the level slots available.

(The magic system also included rules for casting a spell at a higher and lower level-- similar in some ways to metamagic feats, except that they were available to all casters.)

I always liked this system. In terms of fluff, I'm very drawn to the studious, book-learnin' wizard. But, despite having all these great spells in them, the wizard often can't do much because he didn't have the plot foresight that Jack Vance had when writing for his characters to prepare the right spells for the day. The Magister was great for that; no more using up multiple slots on copies of the combat spells you have to have prepared just in case combat happens. Overall, I really liked Arcana Unearthed, and its slightly-different take on the core classes, I have to say. Kind of a pity that it's basically all but forgotten now.

Pretty much exactly how D&D 5E wizards cast. Prepare a number of spells equal to Int bonus plus wizard level. Cast any prepared spell using spell slots. Spells scale and can be cast as higher level (to increase fireball damage for example).

Strangely enough, 5E wizards can also recover a few spells a day during a short rest.

Most people, I don't believe, are complaining about the fluff of the class or whether or not it feels appropriate for D&D or PF Wizard-esque classes. But the issue is that Full casters are already insanely powerful, with that power reigned in by either limited spells selection, or the requirement to prepare ahead of time. In 5E, what allows them to get by without that is the fact that they reigned in the power of spells, but, unless the designers have come up with a way to reduce the inherent power of spells that the Arcanist has access to, beyond simply a 1 level delay in access to the next spell level, I don't see what they can do to have this even have the illusion of balance. Fewer spells per day might delay the issue, but by higher levels, spells become less and less limited resources.

K177Y C47 wrote:

Oh.. that Elemental master... it is gonna get scary...

I can just see thing:

Crosblooded Sorcerer (Dragonic/Orc) 1
Elemental master Arcanist X
Bloodline Development (Elemental or one of the Genies)

You thought the Sorc 1/Wizard X blaster got scary...

Add in that Arcanists can crank up DCs/CLs AND are some of the best at abusing meta-magic... things are gonna get scary in the blaster world....

Here's the thing to remember though.... The Arcanist (or any of the other classes in the ACG playtest) CAN'T multiclass with a class that makes up it's core. In the case of the Arcanist, there can be no Sorcerer/Arcanist or Wizard/Arcanist characters without house ruling it.....

Just a thought. :)

Unless something has changed again, that is no longer true. ACG classes no longer have parent classes and can multiclass however they please.

How is Quick Study powerful?

First off you gotta use 1 arcane reservoir point. But that isn't even the real issue

The real drawback is you have to look through your spell book as a full-round action. Outside of combat this gives more flexibility and is quite useful. But during combat you are asking for trouble.

You lose a whole turn just to switch a spell. And you have your spell book out in the open to easily get disarmed, stolen, or sundered.

Outside of combat I see a benefit but nothing game breaking. I have a player who purposefully has his Wizard leave a few spell slots open so if something comes up during the adventure day he can study for 15 minutes to fill up a slot or two with spells he will need. Arcanist just bypasses that time slot using their reservoir.

Just a note: Sorcerers already effectively have access to Quick Study. This stuff has been around for a while.

A ring of spell knowledge can give sorcerers any sorcerer spell up to 4th level and *any arcane* spell up to 3rd level. It only takes a standard action and access to a scroll/spellbook to change the spell that is currently stored in the ring. Sure, it becomes less effective at higher levels and costs money, but you can change the spell an unlimited number of times per day! Very useful for casting long term buffs like False Life, Darkvision, and Mage Armor.

A memonic vestment lets sorcerers cast any spell they want (as long as they have a spell) once per day. No extra actions to get access, they simply cast the spell.

If anything, at low to mid levels a properly geared sorcerer will still be far more versitle than an Arcanist. And if an Arcanist can use these items as well, then not much has really changed.

Eh, I'm not going to be complaining about the class. I figure the Arcanist is a nice beginner's spellcaster. Learns new spells like a Wizard, but can roughly cast like the Sorcerer. Too often, I've heard GMs say that you should use a Sorc as the training wheels for arcane spellcasting. That playing a wizard has a steep learning curve due to having to basically plan out what you will need to cast every day. The Arcanist is closer to a happy medium that can let players decide what they prefer to do. And if they think the Arcanist is the more fun option, then that's fine too.

Me? I'll make an Arcanist at some point. I'll likely have it be a Halfling and perhaps have the White Mage archetype. That sounds like a build that the tables would be more happy to see, especially in PFS.

I have not seen anyone mention that Quick Study is an Exploit you have to choose when you level, not a deed that every Arcanist automatically gets as long as they have a point in their pool. It is quite good, but I don't know if we'll be seeing it on every Arcanist from now until the end of time given how cool I expect other new exploits to be.

I must admit i have only read the first part and not the full thread but it sounds like the wizard is on his Way out. And that most interesting wizards is gonna need a rewrite to this class.

I think people think they have an unlimited amount of Arcane Reservoir to do these crazy things with.

If you just dedicate your reservoir to Quick Study, then all you have going for you is spells, and you get fewer of them in a day than wizards or sorcerers.

I think this class will be about equal with wizards on power level, where each other will have some nice things they can do but the other can't. Wizards having more spells and bonus feats allowing them to have more versatile casting, and arcanists who have their exploits to manipulate magic rather than spells. It should make for an interesting game.

Lemmy has made his opinion that this is the most OP class ever conceived multiple times. And multiple times, he has been shut down by logic and number crunching.

In reality, Quick Study is not even close to applicable in combat. Gotta spend at least a move action to get my book out. Gotta make sure I'm no where near an enemy to avoid those AOOs. Then I have to wait another round and spend the entire round (save for a swift action) dedicated solely to swapping out a spell. These actual restrictions in game make the ability borderline useless in combat which means the time spent outside of combat on a wizard with Fast Study or an Arcanist with Quick Study really become transparent. Not to mention that the Arcanist's cost reservoir and the Wizard's does not.

I have not seen anyone mention that Quick Study is an Exploit you have to choose when you level, not a deed that every Arcanist automatically gets as long as they have a point in their pool. It is quite good, but I don't know if we'll be seeing it on every Arcanist from now until the end of time given how cool I expect other new exploits to be.

Quick Study looks like a no brainer pick as things seem now. Any Arcanist worth their salt will take it, just like any Barbarian worth their salt will take Greater Beast Totem.

If the other exploits are strong enough to make finding room for Quick Study hard then... well, that definitely doesn't make me feel better about the class balance.

IxionZero wrote:

I have not seen anyone mention that Quick Study is an Exploit you have to choose when you level, not a deed that every Arcanist automatically gets as long as they have a point in their pool. It is quite good, but I don't know if we'll be seeing it on every Arcanist from now until the end of time given how cool I expect other new exploits to be.

Quick Study looks like a no brainer pick as things seem now. Any Arcanist worth their salt will take it, just like any Barbarian worth their salt will take Greater Beast Totem.

If the other exploits are strong enough to make finding room for Quick Study hard then... well, that definitely doesn't make me feel better about the class balance.

It's not even usable in combat, I really don't see it breaking the game for that reason.

It might get used in a combat where the arcanist gets two free turns to swap a spell out, but if you are giving him two free turns he's pretty much won already.

I think people think they have an unlimited amount of Arcane Reservoir to do these crazy thin.gs with.

Doesn't need to be unlimited to be overpowered.

Lemmy has made his opinion that this is the most OP class ever conceived multiple times. And multiple times, he has been shut down by logic and number crunching.

Don't remember that. No one has ever made any good point about how this class is anything less than extremely powerful. At very least, it's a Sorcerer+, and Sorcerer is already a very powerful class. The... ahem... "Strongest" arguments were things like "It doesn't have a familiar" or "It's not as broken as Paragon Surge + Extra Arcana". And really, if you're using Paragon Surge + Extra Arcana as measure of balance, you already lost the discussion.

In reality, Quick Study is not even close to applicable in combat.

Doesn't have to be applicable in combat to be overpowered either. And BTW, Quick Study is not even among the top 5 reasons why Arcanists are OP.

Not everything in this game is combat, y'know. Quick Study is powerful for its uses in every situation where you're not about to get your face smashed in.