Actually, I've been toying with the idea of a Witch archetype that specifically gets its powers from a deity (and replaces all Patron spells with spells from a Cleric Domain). Invented by deities seeking to get undercover followers in places where religion is banned (Rahadoum, Bachuan, etc.). Casting remains arcane only to keep up the cover. Of course, the end result is probably going to be Witches being banned from those countries, but in the meantime, the deities that participate in this may get some good mileage out of it.
Actually, I've been toying with the idea of a Witch archetype that specifically gets its powers from a deity (and replaces all Patron spells with spells from a Cleric Domain). Invented by deities seeking to get undercover followers in places where religion is banned (Rahadoum, Bachuan, etc.). Casting remains arcane only to keep up the cover. Of course, the end result is probably going to be Witches being banned from those countries, but in the meantime, the deities that participate in this may get some good mileage out of it.
That's a great idea. :-)
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AFAIK, deities are not on the list of Witch patrons.Double checked. Deities are not on the list of Witch patrons.Since this thread is still going on, I got uncertain. I triple checked to make sure. I can definitely confirm that deities are not on the list of Witch patrons.
But with DMs discretion, I don't really see a problem with it.
There is no 'list of Witch Patrons', in the way you're using the phrase. We have a list of the 'themes' that a Patron could be associated with, and the mechanical effect of gaining bonus spells, but as to what exactly what sort of entity the Patron is? That is completely undefined, and seemingly deliberately so, given that it is stated that the Witch herself frequently doesn't know exactly who or what her mysterious benefactor is.
The flavor as written certainly implies that the Patron is supposed to be an entity, and not just an abstract concept in the same way as an Oracle's Mystery--the witch is stated to have made a pact and to commune with the source of her magic, and the familiars are at least implied to have been specifically sent to the witch to instruct her. Gods, demons, devils, squamous beings from beyond the stars, anything powerful and otherworldly fits the bill. Any mechanical impact of that flavor choice beyond what's stated in the Patron ability is down to table variation and house rules, but as a backstory element, a Patron as a deity offering arcane instruction instead of channeling divine power makes honestly as much sense as anything else.
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I agree completely that a Patron can be a deity and vice versa
This will still not move me to read the RAW as allowing a Witch with such a Patron to take the aforementioned feat
The OP posted in the Rules forum. It is only natural that we answer with the RAW as we read them. That he reads them differently does not make his take the one and only RAW
And it could confuse people coming to this thread to get what the RAW says about this
That is a mischaracterization of everything I have stated on this thread. If you look at the first page I have said that both Weapon of the Chosen and the Witch Patron mechanic are ambiguous. Meaning the way they are written allows for several readings on what patrons could be. Those who disagreed have been saying that it is unambiguous the way it is written, and it can be read only one way.
Words and phrases like:
-patron
-communing with
-learn the Patron's true purpose
a mechanic that:
-grants specific spells based on differing patrons
-an inability for familiars to teach other familiars patron spells
all point to a different reading than the one they put forward. That is the definition of the text being ambiguous.
All that is moot since JJ in the quote above clarified intent, despite the ambiguity of the text. According to that clarification patrons are not meant to be entities of any kind. Any ruling of patrons as entities (demons, devils, fey, or deities) is then a house rule. That also means that any ruling on WotC is also a house rule and fully in the hands of your GM.
Any ruling of patrons as entities (demons, devils, fey, or deities) is then a house rule.Indeed. Did you know that deities are not on the list of Witch patrons?
Indeed. Did you know deities are not on the clerics domain list.
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Indeed. Did you know deities are not on the clerics domain list.Any ruling of patrons as entities (demons, devils, fey, or deities) is then a house rule.Indeed. Did you know that deities are not on the list of Witch patrons?
Domains are on the Deities' list, we've been over this.
Edit: also, in the Core Rulebook Deities are also listed under each Domain. So yes, actually, Deities are are on the Cleric Domain list.
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Did you know it's just going around in circles.
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Did you know it's just going around in circles.
Don't bring geometry into this, you won't like where it goes.
Indeed. Did you know deities are not on the clerics domain list.Any ruling of patrons as entities (demons, devils, fey, or deities) is then a house rule.Indeed. Did you know that deities are not on the list of Witch patrons?Domains are on the Deities' list, we've been over this.
Edit: also, in the Core Rulebook Deities are also listed under each Domain. So yes, actually, Deities are are on the Cleric Domain list.
Rub-Eta's comment was a troll comment because that is not the way the patron list would relate to deities. Just like deities wouldn't be on the domain list, they also wouldn't be on the patron list. I was simply illustrating that for him, not saying anything about domains relationship to deities.
...and no deities are not ON the domain list, however they do list which domains are associated with which deities.
I've stated that RAW the language points in one direction because it is true. James Jacobs says RAI is something different and recognizes the unfortunate use of language. There is nothing left to say... unless you want to toss in more snark.
Late to the party, not sure if it's been mentioned already, but: Classes that receive spells from a deity (Paladin, Cleric, Inquisitor) all have a code of conduct they need to follow, or they'll lose their abilities. Since classes like the witch and Oracle have a higher power they get their powers from, that higher power doesn't force them to spread His/Her word, or do His/Her bidding. A deity could've chosen an Oracle to give some powers to, purely because he was bored. Maybe in the fiction there's a method of revoking that power, but mechanically, once you have your powers, you're golden. Lamashtu could give you divine powers to bring forth nightmares, but if you decide to use those powers to become the best midwife of Golarion, that's your choice. A lot of people I know play Oracles as if a deity is the one who gave them their powers, but that's not necessarily the case. Witch Patrons and Oracle Mysteries are thematic, not necessarily tangible. The Animal Patron could be Erastil, but it might as well be a forest spirit, something you came in contact with in your youth, or you were somehow chosen as a representative of the animals as a collective. You can flavour it as it being divine magic, but unless you have actual proof, you won't benefit from any feats relating to deities. I always see it as deities granting those feats to you, rather than your connection to the deity opening up that option for you.
TL;DR: Unless your class description actually states you depend on a deity/alignment for your abilities and you can lose those abilities, I wouldn't allow feats to work in the same way. Witches can't lose class abilities, so they can't benefit from those feats, either.
Late to the party, not sure if it's been mentioned already, but: Classes that receive spells from a deity (Paladin, Cleric, Inquisitor) all have a code of conduct they need to follow, or they'll lose their abilities. Since classes like the witch and Oracle have a higher power they get their powers from, that higher power doesn't force them to spread His/Her word, or do His/Her bidding. A deity could've chosen an Oracle to give some powers to, purely because he was bored. Maybe in the fiction there's a method of revoking that power, but mechanically, once you have your powers, you're golden. Lamashtu could give you divine powers to bring forth nightmares, but if you decide to use those powers to become the best midwife of Golarion, that's your choice. A lot of people I know play Oracles as if a deity is the one who gave them their powers, but that's not necessarily the case. Witch Patrons and Oracle Mysteries are thematic, not necessarily tangible. The Animal Patron could be Erastil, but it might as well be a forest spirit, something you came in contact with in your youth, or you were somehow chosen as a representative of the animals as a collective. You can flavour it as it being divine magic, but unless you have actual proof, you won't benefit from any feats relating to deities. I always see it as deities granting those feats to you, rather than your connection to the deity opening up that option for you.
TL;DR: Unless your class description actually states you depend on a deity/alignment for your abilities and you can lose those abilities, I wouldn't allow feats to work in the same way. Witches can't lose class abilities, so they can't benefit from those feats, either.
I understand your reasoning, and it is well thought out, but it is not a clear fit across classes. Druids aren't required to worship, nor does their potential loss of powers imply worship. Despite that, they would be included in the worship list based on your criteria, with only the flavor text to say otherwise.
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Deities are not on the list of themes for Witch patrons.
But that's the point, the deity wouldn't be on the list of themes, because it is a list of themes and not the actual Patrons themselves....
Each patron is listed by its theme. Its actual name is up to the GM and the witch to decide.
What a Patron is, is up to the GM and Player to decide. So could a Deity be a Patron...almost assuredly. Does that mean every Witch's Patron is a Deity...not at all.
As the author of the aurora patron, I can confirm that it was not meant to represent Pulura as a patron - rather, it's a patron (as vague and undefined as they are) highly appropriate for witches that worship Pulura.
With respect, there is no aurora Patron. Your wrote the aurora theme, that is granted by a Patron. Could Pulura be that Patron? Yes. Is Pulura the only possible patron that could grant the aurora theme? No.
This patron is a vague and mysterious force, granting the witch power for reasons that she might not entirely understand. While these forces need not be named, they typically hold influence over one of the following forces.
the witch gains power from her communion with the unknown. Generally feared and misunderstood, the witch draws her magic from a pact made with an otherworldly power. Communing with that source, using her familiar as a conduit, the witch gains not only a host of spells, but a number of strange abilities known as hexes. As a witch grows in power, she might learn about the source of her magic, but some remain blissfully unaware. Some are even afraid of that source, fearful of what it might be or where its true purposes lie.
So Patrons are a "mysterious force" or "otherworldly power." They "grant" a witch her power through "communion" using the familiar as a "conduit."
Witches have certain Patrons, Aurora, Time, Healing, they don't have an unidentified Patron that gives them a "Theme" as you posit.
Uh no. As quoted, the Patron grants a "theme." The themes are Aurora, Time, Healing, etc.
The Patron is an "overworldly power" that is up to the DM and Player to determine.
Its literally written that way in the class description.
]At 1st level, when a witch gains her familiar, she must also select a patron. This patron is a vague and mysterious force, granting the witch power for reasons that she might not entirely understand. While these forces need not be named, they typically hold influence over one of the following forces. At 2nd level, and every two levels thereafter, a witch’s patron adds new spells to a witch’s list of spells known. These spells are also automatically added to the list of spells stored by the familiar. Spells marked with an asterisk (*) appear in Chapter 5 of this book. The spells gained depend upon the patron chosen. Each patron is listed by its theme. Its actual name is up to the GM and the witch to decide.
The list is explicitly that of themes, a force over which the Patron holds influence, not the Patron itself.
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-_-
You're really splitting hairs here, Patrons are listed by their themes, they don't grant them. The very next sentence actually says "It's actual name is up to the GM and Witch to decide."
So yes, there is a Destruction Patron whose theme is Destruction, there is a Healing Patron whose theme is Healing, there is an Aurora Patron whose them is Auroras. Those are the Patrons.
All Time Witches get their powers from the most mysterious patron of all... Barry Alan.
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All Time Witches get their powers from the most mysterious patron of all... Barry Alan.
Not us dude! We totally got ours from Rufus!
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All Time Witches get their powers from the most mysterious patron of all... Barry Alan.Not us dude! We totally got ours from Rufus!
Who is totally excellent!!
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All Time Witches get their powers from the most mysterious patron of all... Barry Alan.Not us dude! We totally got ours from Rufus!Who is totally excellent!!
Wait dude... are we witches?
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Wait dude... are we witches?All Time Witches get their powers from the most mysterious patron of all... Barry Alan.Not us dude! We totally got ours from Rufus!Who is totally excellent!!
Does it matter!
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Does it matter!Wait dude... are we witches?All Time Witches get their powers from the most mysterious patron of all... Barry Alan.Not us dude! We totally got ours from Rufus!Who is totally excellent!!
Oh yeah...
King,
Good wordplay, but are you then equating a witch's Patron, a very specific meaning, with any being who has a connection to a related area? Any being who provides support can be called a patron (note the small case here). This does not make them a Patron in the witch's mileiu.
This discussion will go on forever while going nowhere with this type of argument.
You see!
That's how you get time travellers!
Barry, you a#+@%+#!!!
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King,
Good wordplay, but are you then equating a witch's Patron, a very specific meaning, with any being who has a connection to a related area? Any being who provides support can be called a patron (note the small case here). This does not make them a Patron in the witch's mileiu.
A being that provides the specific support of understanding particular spells to a witch is both a patron and a witch's Patron. The theme is also the thing.
I'm pretty sure we agree here.
Except that Pharasma being called a patron of Time, in no way implies that she is ever a witch's Patron. This is Rules. As a home-rule I met well allow it, because I rather like the theme of it. I would expect rather a lot extra from the witch's player, since Pharasma is rather more complex than a "standard" Patron. By the you can't do this.
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I was simply illustrating that for him, not saying anything about domains relationship to deities.Indeed. Did you know deities are not on the clerics domain list.Any ruling of patrons as entities (demons, devils, fey, or deities) is then a house rule.Indeed. Did you know that deities are not on the list of Witch patrons?Domains are on the Deities' list, we've been over this.
Edit: also, in the Core Rulebook Deities are also listed under each Domain. So yes, actually, Deities are are on the Cleric Domain list.
If we're going to discuss this: domains are granted by deities, they are not deities. Therefor, deities should not be listed as domains. Patrons are, unambiguously, not granted by deities and are neither deities them selves.
Bottom-line: the witch and her patron has nothing to do with deities, unlike cleric and her domains. I don't see why you're trying portray them as equally deity related (which you do, by putting your statement in contrary to mine, as an argument).
Did you know deities are not on the barbarian rage power list?
There is no 'list of Witch Patrons', in the way you're using the phrase.Oh, ah, that explains the confusion. I will correct that:
Deities are not on the list of themes for Witch patrons.
There we go. I apologize for being ambiguous.
EDITED
Patrons themes are *not* unambiguously not granted by deities. They are not unambiguously granted by them, either. What grants a Patron theme is, per RAW, *completely and utterly ambiguous*, and it is virtually explicit that any two given witches who both have the Winter Patron are probably dealing with two entirely different Winter-related entities. No, deities are not on the list you identify--but neither are devils, demons, fey, eldritch entities, hags, kami, ghosts, totem spirits, or any of of an infinite number of other sources, because the list you identify has nothing to do with who or what a Patron is, only with what themed bonus spells they can provide.
Except that Pharasma being called a patron of Time, in no way implies that she is ever a witch's Patron. This is Rules. As a home-rule I met well allow it, because I rather like the theme of it. I would expect rather a lot extra from the witch's player, since Pharasma is rather more complex than a "standard" Patron. By the you can't do this.
The only 'rule' about who/what a Patron is, is that it is up to the GM and the Witch player.
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-_-
You're really splitting hairs here, Patrons are listed by their themes, they don't grant them. The very next sentence actually says "It's actual name is up to the GM and Witch to decide."
So yes, there is a Destruction Patron whose theme is Destruction, there is a Healing Patron whose theme is Healing, there is an Aurora Patron whose them is Auroras. Those are the Patrons.
No, its not "splitting hairs." The Patron is listed by theme, it is not the theme itself. The Patron is something that has power over the theme.
The line you quote refers to the name of the Patron (the thing granting the power) not the name of the theme (which is already listed).
There are multiple possible Destruction themed Patrons. They are all referred to by the theme, Destruction, but are all various different things. They could be Rovagug, or a powerful daemon, or anything else the PC and DM come up with the fits the theme of Destruction. The witch could find out its name and desires, she could never bother, or could actively avoid finding out.
In some games what exactly is the Patron could never be considered important, in others finding out the source of a witch's power could be a primary goal and either helping or thwarting it.
Patrons are described as having a name, that they can be learned about, and they have agency (as they are described as having goals) not merely disembodied ideals.
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No, a Patron is a theme unto itself. It is not some being with a separate "Theme" acting as an intermediary between itself and the Witch. The Familair is the intermediary.
A Witch has the Aurora Patron, she does not have an Auroran theme granted by an unknown Patron.
And as pointed out in the James Jacobs post Patrons are not even supposed to be beings.
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All of this should have died long ago since Witches are Arcane
The OP has built himself a nice deep obstinate hole to sit in. The least we can do, is keep the Merry Go Round running until he gets himself out. :-)
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Some good comments above but others... smh.
Even some of the people who have argued that patrons can't be entities refer to them as entities above. That is because the flavor text points in that direction.
- RAI patrons are simply themes as per James Jacobs.
- Flavor says something else (and is unfortunate as per James Jacobs).
- Mechanic is in the middle.
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* James Jacobs can say that he never intended for Patrons to be active entities all he likes, and that's fine. It is also *completely contrary* to literally *everything* in the actual written text.
* Sorcerers can get Arcane power from a connection to divine entities--and it is fairly explicit that bloodlines can be the result of pacts as well as the descent the name indicates. So the witch's Arcane casting is not an indicator that their power cannot be connected to the divine, merely that a different mechanism is at play.
* The rules say that the identity of the Patron is entirely up to the GM and the Witch player. It is never specified what a Patron is to make that answer entirely customizable. Again, almost none of us are actually arguing for letting Witches take Weapon of the Chosen--or at the least, acknowledge that it would be a situational house rule and entirely inappropriate for PFS. We're just baffled that a flavor choice which has so clearly been left wide open to most any possible interpretation should be so widely and aggressively constrained.
* Rysky--Are all Cavaliers who select the same order *actually* part of the same knightly order? Quite a trick considering how two such cavaliers will end up on opposite sides, working at cross-purposes--or for that matter, living worlds apart? Or are there multiple different orders that share the mechanical benefits of, say, the Order of the Lion?