A Witch with a Deity as a Patron


Rules Questions

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Silver Crusade

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Celestial blooded Sorcerers can get their Celestial bloodline through the interaction from a Deity (maybe the Deity resurrected the character or their ancestor, maybe they tucked your ancestor), but they do not in the slightest get it through worship.

Because if you make a Patron a Deity and have their abilities and power come from a Deity it goes beyond a flavor choice. There are things that give boons to Divinely granted abilities and spells and numerous effects and creatures that have bonuses as well as defenses against Divinely gifted agents and abilities. By declaring that a Witch gets her abilities form her Deity you are sidestepping all of that and naming the Witch immune when she shouldn't have any right to be. You cannot arbitrarily decide that something that is vague is a Deity. If it comes from a Deity it will flat out say so. Having your powers come from a Deity comes with a whole string of consequences and ramifications. Celestial blooded Sorcerers and Witches are not Divine casters and do not use Divine Foci to cast spells.

Cavalier Orders are Causes and Codes of Conduct, not Organizations. So yes you can have two Cavaliers on two different countries or even planets be a part of the same "Order".


The entity and the relationship are separate.

Relationships:
Worship = strings
Pact = whatever the deal stipulates
Lineage = absolutely no strings (isn't nepotism nice)

These relationships effect how entities interact with mortals. Entities can have any number of these relationships and interact differently based on them.


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Bladelock
Problem with your relationship concept
Pact = whatever the deal stipulates

Why would a god make a deal granting MORE than a lesser sourced Patron, for no additional stipulations. Are your gods poor dealmakers or just rather thick?

In a strict game focus, the player is asking for a demonstrable advantage with no cost associated with it. She wants to be able to take feats specific to divine casters as an arcane caster. This is the Rules Questions Forum. By the rules, this is not supported. If we were to say it was, that would mean that a GM would be rather dickish saying he expects something extra from the player/character if he allows it. So, yes Revan, it IS solely between the GM and the player, NO ONE has argued against that, but since this IS the Rules Question Forum, the honest answer has to be that the Rules don't say it is right, so it is up to the GM to decide. PFS play will probably not allow it as it stands, but that doesn't seem to be part of any argument here.


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What advantage? Setting aside feat prerequisites like for Weapon of the Chosen--which I and others have stressed we do *not* believe is rules supported--what advantage is gained by saying your Patron is a deity, while using all the same mechanics as a Patron who isn't? Rysky mentions 'getting around divine magic defenses', but that's nothing the witch couldn't already do. Perhaps that ability to operate in ways a cleric couldn't it's precisely why a deity would send an agent to counsel and tutor a mortal in Arcane magic instead of granting it divine power--thus allowing the Witch to bypass certain magical defenses that might stymie a cleric, but locking her out of abilities like Weapon of the Chosen available to clerics, and giving the deity less direct control over the Witch's power.


Just checking on whether you discussing or denying.

Silver Crusade

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Saying you get your powers from your Diety lets you pick stuff that normally only the likes of Clerics and similar class can get access to, but since you're Arcane you don't have to worry about all the things that have defenses against Divine magic or get bonuses against Divine casters.

"I get my powers from my Diety. Except when I don't. Except when I do. Except when I don't. Except when I do..."

Liberty's Edge

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I still believe a deity can be a Witch's Patron as long as it does not give that Witch any leeway that a Witch with a non-deity Patron would lack

I think the nature of the Patron is an open tool for the GM and the player to use in weaving the story and that it should not by itself grant any special benefit unless the GM decides it does in his game aka houserules

But we are in the Rules section here. Not the Houserules one ;-)


Rysky wrote:
No, a Patron is a theme unto itself. It is not some being with a separate "Theme" acting as an intermediary between itself and the Witch. The Familair is the intermediary.

The theme isn't a separate thing that acts as a go between. It is a characterization of the type of power held by the Patron.

For example, say Witch A has the Green Mother as her Patron, and so has the Plant Patron theme. Plant isn't a go between, it is a theme for the power held by the Patron and granted to the Witch.

A different Witch could also have the Green Mother, but have the Enchantments Patron theme. A third Witch could have the Plant Patron theme, but be bound to a powerful Fey Lord.

Rysky wrote:
A Witch has the Aurora Patron, she does not have an Auroran theme granted by an unknown Patron.

Yes she does. Specifically, as noted in the class description.


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Rysky wrote:

Saying you get your powers from your Diety lets you pick stuff that normally only the likes of Clerics and similar class can get access to, but since you're Arcane you don't have to worry about all the things that have defenses against Divine magic or get bonuses against Divine casters.

"I get my powers from my Diety. Except when I don't. Except when I do. Except when I don't. Except when I do..."

I repeat--I am not arguing for Witches to access Weapon of the Chosen or any other Cleric-locked ability. I have never argued for that. I am merely saying that it is perfectly within the concept space of defined Witch flavor for a deity to be their Patron, in precisely the same way that a Celestial Sorcerer might have made a pact with heavenly forces or be distantly descended from a god as a flavor explanation for their bloodline that does not alter its mechanical functions.

Silver Crusade

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@Samasboy1, Patrons are not Domains, that's what you're trying to say they are. They are not. Deities are not Patrons. Deities do not "grant" Patrons. Patrons are their own thing. Witches have a Patron. They do not have a Deity and a Theme. They have a Patron.

@Revan, the difference between what you're suggesting though is that the Sorcerer receives their power from their bloodline, a bloodline in this case altered by a Deity, not from the Diety itself. They are not receiving their powers from a Deity in the same way a Cleric does or in the same way having a Patron be a Deity would. They do not get power through worship, a deity cannot take away their power if they go against them the same way a Diety can do so to Clerics and the like.

By declaring that a Witch receive spells through a Deity you are causing a mechanical change, even though it's unintended. If someone gets a bonuses against Divine targets they should get a bonus against the Witch since they get their powers from a Diety even though they are Arcane Casters. Saying they shouldn't get those bonuses even though the Witch is powered by a Deity will cause some jarring dissociation. If you enter an area where Divine magic is blocked but the Witch can still cast spells cause she's Arcane even though she's powered by a Deity you're creating a dissociation. Arcane Casters do not receive powers form Deities. Those are Divine Casters. That's the entire point of Divine Casters. If you receive power from a Deity you're a Divine Caster. If you're not a Divine Catser then you're not powered by a Deity.


The Raven Black wrote:

I still believe a deity can be a Witch's Patron as long as it does not give that Witch any leeway that a Witch with a non-deity Patron would lack

I think the nature of the Patron is an open tool for the GM and the player to use in weaving the story and that it should not by itself grant any special benefit unless the GM decides it does in his game aka houserules

But we are in the Rules section here. Not the Houserules one ;-)

This is basically my stance on the subject. Witches patrons are vague undefined forces, so if a player wants to have their patron be a deity, an uncaring primordial being or a vague cosmic force given form, that's fine by me, as long as their do so for flavor reasons.

Mechanically speaking though there really isn't any ground, in the Rules, to stand on here. Even if you let someone flavor their patron as a deity, they still would be arcane casters, and thus unable to take any feats that require divine casting.

Rysky wrote:
...Arcane Casters do not receive powers form Deities. Those are Divine Casters. That's the entire point of Divine Casters. If you receive power from a Deity you're a Divine Caster. If you're not a Divine Catser then you're not powered by a Deity.

I really wish it was that easy, but I think that ship sailed some time ago. If all divine casters get their power, from the deities, then every Ranger, Druid, Shaman and Hunter would get their powers from a deity/pantheon, which doesn't seem to be the case.

Silver Crusade

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Those are Nature Divine Casters, which are different. They aren't required to worship a Deity and worshipping a Deity doesn't overly alter them in the same way it would for say a Cleric or Paladin.

My previous posts when I'm talking about Divine Casters recieving spells from Deities I mean exactly that, Divine Caster that receive spells from Deities, referring to Clerics, Warpriests, Paladins*, and Inquisitors.

*Yes I know Paladin don't have to worship a Deity but if they do it overwrites that, including altering their code if their Deity has one for Paladins.


Rysky wrote:

Those are Nature Divine Casters, which are different. They aren't required to worship a Deity and worshipping a Deity doesn't overly alter them in the same way it would for say a Cleric or Paladin.

My previous posts when I'm talking about Divine Casters recieving spells from Deities I mean exactly that, Divine Caster that receive spells from Deities, referring to Clerics, Warpriests, Paladins*, and Inquisitors.

*Yes I know Paladin don't have to worship a Deity but if they do it overwrites that, including altering their code if their Deity has one for Paladins.

Yes that clarifies things a bit.

Am I correct in understanding that the problem (or at least one of them) for you, would the be, that if a Patron could be a Deity, then the witch should be under the same obligation to act according to the strictures, tenets or codes of said Deity. And if the witch didn't, then they would face the same penalties as a cleric, who hadn't followed the strictures, tenets or codes of said Deity aka fall?

Silver Crusade

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Yep, and that they should be Divine Casters.


Can't say I agree with your position 100%, but I can see your point(s) and I agree that a simple swap, from the current Patron model to a Patron/and or Deity would probably require tinkering, with the Witch class, to such an degree that it would amount to a Archetype.
Especially if the Divine caster = Active and correct worshipper of a Deity is inseparable.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Your 'jarring disassociation' in fact fits perfectly with the flavor. Why would a deity act as a Patron instead of just empowering the Witch as a cleric? Precisely because it's doing an end run around normal restrictions, using an intermediary--the familiar--to teach Arcane Magic, rather than granting divine magic, thus gaining a servant over whom it has less direct influence and control, and cannot grant the same boons it might a cleric, but who is able to operate more freely in various ways and deal with issues a cleric could not.

Silver Crusade

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It doesn't really work like that though. You can't pick and choose what's being empowered by the Divine and what's Arcane like that. A Witch gets spells through the pact with her Patron, with the familiar as an intermediary. If the Patron was a Deity they would be Divine Casters, but they're not, you can't be Divinely empowered Arcane Casters that picks and chooses what all it counts and doesn't count for being powered by a Deity.

If a Diety is supplying your spells you're a Divine Caster, not an Arcane.

The Dissociation comes in with what if Divine magic is blocked but you can still cast despite getting your spells from a Deity? Why? Are you just so much better than a Divine Faithful class? No. Because it doesn't work that way.


Rysky wrote:

@Samasboy1, Patrons are not Domains, that's what you're trying to say they are. They are not. Deities are not Patrons. Deities do not "grant" Patrons. Patrons are their own thing. Witches have a Patron. They do not have a Deity and a Theme. They have a Patron.

Looking back, I don't see anyone claiming that Patrons are domains, that Deities grant Patrons, or that Witches need a Deity.

Witches have Patrons. The Patron has a theme. The theme is not Patron. The Patron could be, but isn't necessarily, a Deity.

Witch Patron wrote:

At 1st level, when a witch gains her familiar, she must also select a patron. This patron is a vague and mysterious force, granting the witch power for reasons that she might not entirely understand. While these forces need not be named, they typically hold influence over one of the following forces.

At 2nd level, and every two levels thereafter, a witch’s patron adds new spells to a witch’s list of spells known. These spells are also automatically added to the list of spells stored by the familiar. The spells gained depend upon the patron chosen. Each patron is listed by its theme. Its actual name is up to the GM and the witch to decide.

Summer, Thorns, Healing etc are not Patrons themselves. They are "one of the following forces" over which the Patron holds influence. They are the "theme" but not the "name" of the Patron.

A Witch doesn't have Winter as a Patron. She has (for example) Isolde, the Black Flower, Spirit of the Bitter Wind. Isolde grants the Witch the Winter powers.

Even if the Witch had a Deity as their Patron, that doesn't make her magic divine. The Witch's magic is about a pact, an agreement. Regardless of whether the Patron is a Deity or not, the Witch receives her power from something outside herself. She doesn't study and learn it, she isn't born with it, and it isn't based on faith. It is granted her, through communion with forces outside herself. But it is still Arcane magic.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Winter IS the Patron.

Healing IS the Patron.

Destruction IS the Patron.

You can call them whatever you want but those things are the Patrons.

Saying they aren't is flat out disengenous.

By declaring them not you are trying to make up your own rules governing them. You aren't outright calling them Domains but that's effectively what you're doing by trying to separate Patron and "Theme" into separate things while also suggesting Patrons are Deities and the actual Patrons are just "themes" given by the Deities.


You are wrong.

I am quoting text from the rules as supporting my position. You are not, because you cannot.

It's that simple.

Winter is not the Patron, but is the theme of powers controlled and granted by the Patron.

It isn't a domain, and it can be granted by a non-Deity Patron.

I am not drawing the distinction, the rules in the class ability is.


OK, theorycrafting here:

What if the diety in question is not providing the actual magic, but only providing the knowledge of the actual magic to the familiar. This would mean that you still cannot use feats, etc. that act on divine magic, because it isn't divine magic.

Now, requirements towards following the precepts of the God in question is iffyer. You could make a case for going by the oracle model, but I don't think so. Your conduit is a sentient being, the familiar, who may have very specific expectations regarding the witch's activities and conduct. How this is different from any character's faith is open to debate. This has a lot of good roleplay potential. The familiar may have a specific/limited focus or purpose, essentially being a built-in plot hook.

For tables allowing expanded benefits, I think a system of vows might be a way to go. I think perhaps an archetype might be in order. Lesser advantages might be feat based, with an achievement feat model being appropriate.

Any thoughts?
If we go on with this line, moving the thread from Rules Questions might be in order, though, frankly, most already agree that the original question has been answered, and the discussion has moved on.

Sovereign Court

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Samasboy1 wrote:
Winter is not the Patron, but is the theme of powers controlled and granted by the Patron.

And if the Patron is not named? What do you call it?

Most witches would call their Patron Winter.

Winter is both patron and theme until you've defined it otherwise. To define it, talk to the GM.


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That's not a rule, it has no mechanical impact on anything. It's flavor text never again supported by any witch NPC or product Paizo has published. Whatever the mixed/group intent when the witch was originally published, the idea of patrons as actual named individuals doesn't seem to have gone anywhere thereafter.

At best you can say that individual individuals are patrons of the Patrons, and that they invest some power into the theme that actually works directly with the witch. Because if the individual you pick as a named patron gets killed, you don't lose any of your abilities or future bonus spells.

Silver Crusade

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Yes a Patron is listed by its theme, because a Patron and it's theme are the same thing. When new Patrons are introduced the text doesn't say Patrons can grant these themes, they say the Witch has access to these Patrons, or Patron Themes. Patron/Theme are the same thing, they are not seperate entities (as for why I haven't scoured every single book quoting every text, well it's exactly that reason, that's way too much work to justify for this conversation).

A Witch doesn't choose a Patron and then pick the Winter Theme, she picks the Winter Patron.

Edit: Multi-Ninjaed!


Daw wrote:

OK, theorycrafting here:

What if the diety in question is not providing the actual magic, but only providing the knowledge of the actual magic to the familiar. This would mean that you still cannot use feats, etc. that act on divine magic, because it isn't divine magic.

Now, requirements towards following the precepts of the God in question is iffyer. You could make a case for going by the oracle model, but I don't think so. Your conduit is a sentient being, the familiar, who may have very specific expectations regarding the witch's activities and conduct. How this is different from any character's faith is open to debate. This has a lot of good roleplay potential. The familiar may have a specific/limited focus or purpose, essentially being a built-in plot hook.

For tables allowing expanded benefits, I think a system of vows might be a way to go. I think perhaps an archetype might be in order. Lesser advantages might be feat based, with an achievement feat model being appropriate.

Any thoughts?
If we go on with this line, moving the thread from Rules Questions might be in order, though, frankly, most already agree that the original question has been answered, and the discussion has moved on.

Kinda along what I was thinking.

Your Patron is Winter -> then you have to do such and such, or can't do such and such. You then receive a small boon for doing the right thing (fx cast Patron spells at +1 caster lvl?)

Maybe make it a daily thing, kind of like obedience(s)?

Just spit-balling here...


KingofAnything wrote:

And if the Patron is not named? What do you call it?

Most witches would call their Patron Winter.

If you don't know the name, why would you call it anything at all? The idea that "most" witches call their patron something is a totally unsupported statement.

Plausible Pseudonym wrote:
That's not a rule, it has no mechanical impact on anything

Strange then that it is included in the rules text then.

Rysky wrote:
Yes a Patron is listed by its theme, because a Patron and it's theme are the same thing.

Except the rules text makes clear they are not.

Rysky wrote:
When new Patrons are introduced the text doesn't say Patrons can grant these themes, they say the Witch has access to these Patrons
Quote:
Each patron is listed by its theme. Its actual name is up to the GM and the witch to decide.

The details of the Patron are left to the DM and Player, Patrons are listed by theme. But the theme is not the Patron, only the forces over which the Patron holds sway.

I would posit a question. If Winter is the actual Patron, then what are the DM/PC naming? They are naming the actual Patron, who possesses the Winter theme of course.

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Samasboy1 wrote:
KingofAnything wrote:

And if the Patron is not named? What do you call it?

Most witches would call their Patron Winter.

If you don't know the name, why would you call it anything at all? The idea that "most" witches call their patron something is a totally unsupported statement.

GMs and fellow players tend to be curious. How else would you answer the question, "Hey, what's your patron?"

Silver Crusade

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You and the GM can call it whatever you want but it doesn't seperate it into a being that grants you a theme.

The Patron/Theme are the same thing.

As for Name? I guess it would depend on what type of Witch you are? Cruel Winter. Merciless Winter. Benevolent Frost, etc.


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Pammy has a patron.


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KingOfAnything wrote:
Samasboy1 wrote:
KingofAnything wrote:

And if the Patron is not named? What do you call it?

Most witches would call their Patron Winter.

If you don't know the name, why would you call it anything at all? The idea that "most" witches call their patron something is a totally unsupported statement.

GMs and fellow players tend to be curious. How else would you answer the question, "Hey, what's your patron?"

If it 'doesn't have a name', in most cases I think that means the Witch doesn't know who sent her familiar to her, in which case they would probably say, "I don't know exactly who they are, but through my familiar, they counsel me and teach me magic that wields power over ice, snow and the Winter winds."


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Rysky wrote:

You and the GM can call it whatever you want but it doesn't seperate it into a being that grants you a theme.

The Patron/Theme are the same thing.

As for Name? I guess it would depend on what type of Witch you are? Cruel Winter. Merciless Winter. Benevolent Frost, etc.

A being that grants the theme is, in fact, the plain meaning of the definition given.

Silver Crusade

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Revan wrote:
Rysky wrote:

You and the GM can call it whatever you want but it doesn't seperate it into a being that grants you a theme.

The Patron/Theme are the same thing.

As for Name? I guess it would depend on what type of Witch you are? Cruel Winter. Merciless Winter. Benevolent Frost, etc.

A being that grants the theme is, in fact, the plain meaning of the definition given.

We're just going to disagree on that.


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Pammy doesn't need to give it a name.


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I like the idea of some deities having witches as wetworks agents who can perform jobs that their clerics or inquisitors can't.

Having your witch familiar take the Emissary archetype seems like a good way to facilitate that particular character concept.


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Rysky wrote:
Revan wrote:
Rysky wrote:

You and the GM can call it whatever you want but it doesn't seperate it into a being that grants you a theme.

The Patron/Theme are the same thing.

As for Name? I guess it would depend on what type of Witch you are? Cruel Winter. Merciless Winter. Benevolent Frost, etc.

A being that grants the theme is, in fact, the plain meaning of the definition given.
We're just going to disagree on that.

Let's take another tack. Presuming villainous PCs are allowed in your campaign, can I, as a Witch with the Winter Patron and the Winter Witch archetype and/or Prestige class say that Baba Yaga is my Winter patron, as all the theming and flavor text of those class options suggest?


No. A witches patron does not offer the same benefits or drawbacks as a clerics deity. Even if you flavour said witches patron as a deity they are two different things. You can try and swing it however you want. Bottom line is witches and oracles may or may not get their powers from deities that they may or (more commonly) may not revere - the powers granted are incidental to the characters beliefs and not dependent on that reverence. A clerics powers are a direct connection between character and deity and wholly dependent on the characters reverence and obedience to that deities will. Fail and those powers are withdrawn.

Silly example:
A witch or Oracle granted powers by Urgathoa and who decide to tell Urgathoa to starve and proceed to kill undead for fun aren't going to find their powers affected at all.

Cleric of Urgathoa might find themselves without spells - if they are lucky.


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Sometimes, Pammy names it in secret.


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captain yesterday wrote:
Sometimes, Pammy names it in secret.

God, I really hope we're still talking about patrons.


Revan wrote:
Let's take another tack. Presuming villainous PCs are allowed in your campaign, can I, as a Witch with the Winter Patron and the Winter Witch archetype and/or Prestige class say that Baba Yaga is my Winter patron, as all the theming and flavor text of those class options suggest?

Sure, as long as you never, ever try to get any special treatment from the game due to your special associations? Organized play and a lot of GMs will say no, because even the fact that you aren't a pushy, mini-maxing munchkin, there will be a small army of them standing behind you to push this to stupider and stupider excess. As long as this is the Rules Questions Forum, we cannot recommend opening that door.

Silver Crusade

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Daw wrote:
Revan wrote:
Let's take another tack. Presuming villainous PCs are allowed in your campaign, can I, as a Witch with the Winter Patron and the Winter Witch archetype and/or Prestige class say that Baba Yaga is my Winter patron, as all the theming and flavor text of those class options suggest?
Sure, as long as you never, ever try to get any special treatment from the game due to your special associations? Organized play and a lot of GMs will say no, because even the fact that you aren't a pushy, mini-maxing munchkin, there will be a small army of them standing behind you to push this to stupider and stupider excess. As long as this is the Rules Questions Forum, we cannot recommend opening that door.

I will point out that even if you go by "Patrons can be Deities" train of thought this example wouldn't work, as Baba Yaga explicitly denies and cuts off anyone trying to worship her or gain something from her, so she wouldn't be compatible as a Patron.


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Pammy knows Baba Yaga.


Daw wrote:

Bladelock

Problem with your relationship concept
Pact = whatever the deal stipulates

Why would a god make a deal granting MORE than a lesser sourced Patron, for no additional stipulations. Are your gods poor dealmakers or just rather thick?

In a strict game focus, the player is asking for a demonstrable advantage with no cost associated with it. She wants to be able to take feats specific to divine casters as an arcane caster. This is the Rules Questions Forum. By the rules, this is not supported. If we were to say it was, that would mean that a GM would be rather dickish saying he expects something extra from the player/character if he allows it. So, yes Revan, it IS solely between the GM and the player, NO ONE has argued against that, but since this IS the Rules Question Forum, the honest answer has to be that the Rules don't say it is right, so it is up to the GM to decide. PFS play will probably not allow it as it stands, but that doesn't seem to be part of any argument here.

How would any of this give you access to Divine feats? There is only one feat I know of that requires spells to be granted by deity. If a feat is restricted to divine casters a deity witch patron wouldn't open any of those up.

I'm also pretty sure that a melee witch using Weapon of the Chosen is not making any power gamer salivate. So that just can't be a real issue.

Anyway, Paizo has an opportunity for some new material here: a full book of Patron entities and the themes of their pacts. interesting advantages and disadvantages to go along with the package. That is of course if they change RAI away from themes and closer to how the flavor is written to entities.


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Pammy doesn't have divine feet.

She's not sure about Mister Fluffyclaws though.


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captain yesterday wrote:

Pammy doesn't have divine feet.

She's not sure about Mister Fluffyclaws though.

Divine feet do require worshipping though...

>_>

<_<

*purges internet history once again...*

Dark Archive

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Okay, does someone have a Quentin Tarantino alias for the occasion? Captain?


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Just throwing this out there... I'm making it up on the spot... its not cannon or published anywhere (that I know). Any similarity to existing archetypes is purely coincidental.

The Herald Witch

A herald witch must worship a deity, and receives her spells through that deity (with her familiar acting as the conduit).

A herald witch has an aura just like a cleric.

A herald witch a prepared Divine Caster (who still uses INT as her primary casting stat); she does not suffer arcane spell failure, cannot cast spells opposed to her deity's alignment, and can be stripped of her witchcraft if she ever ceases to revere her deity (she has an ex-witches section just like clerics have an ex-clerics section).

The herald witch selects one domain (just like a cleric); and adds the spells associated with that domain to her familiar's list of spells known as soon as she becomes high enough level to prepare them. She does not gain any of the domain abilities associated with that domain, just the spells. A herald witch's familiar can still commune with other witch's familiars to learn spells from them normally.

The herald witch gains access to the "Prayer Hex" instead of the Cackle Hex. The herald witch's prayer hex functions just like the cackle hex, except that it requires that she pray to her deity in a strong, clear voice.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Pammy knew Harold too.


Seltyiel Fangirl wrote:
Okay, does someone have a Quentin Tarantino alias for the occasion? Captain?

This is close enough, they pretty much look alike anyway, almost like twins even.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

So, is it fair to say, Rysky, Daw, that you feel that any attempt by a player to take the stated them of the Witch of having made a pact with an otherworldly entity, and tie that to a force already defined in the setting is outside the bounds of the rules?


KingOfAnything wrote:


GMs and fellow players tend to be curious. How else would you answer the question, "Hey, what's your patron?"

OOC

"The exact details of the Patron are unimportant/unknown to this character, but it has the Winter theme."

IC
"I don't know."

Rysky wrote:

You and the GM can call it whatever you want but it doesn't seperate it into a being that grants you a theme.

The class description does that for me.

Rysky wrote:
We're just going to disagree on that.

Yup, but that's okay.

Rysky wrote:
I will point out that even if you go by "Patrons can be Deities" train of thought this example wouldn't work, as Baba Yaga explicitly denies and cuts off anyone trying to worship her or gain something from her, so she wouldn't be compatible as a Patron.

I agree that Baba Yaga would not be a good Patron candidate. She does make deals, frequently and always to her own advantage, but a Witch's pact acting as a Patron doesn't seem likely (at all) for her.

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