Does this mean templates like Nightmare Creature and Dreamkiller Creature are unavailable then? Or do they exist, but simply do not represent a formal "realm of dreams", merely the ability to invade sleeping minds?There is no realm of dreams. There are dozens of elemental planes, the elemental chaos, the astral plane, the Black, and the Gray.Finished reading the thread, seems we already have a spymaster concept, but perhaps an alternate role for Xartuk makes the dream-construct idea salvageable.
Maybe more of a standard "protector" role. He's a guardsman, but rather than one which protects form physical threats, he protects the royalty from abstract and metaphysical threats on the less monitored planes.
People tend to guard against attacks from the Astral and Ethereal, all of the aligned Planes, etc. but not everyone thinks to plan for assaults from the realm of Dreams, the depths of the First World, or the myriad scattered demiplanes created by mages across the planes, which could act as an unwitting back door to any plane of an unscrupulous user's choice.
Some minor clarifications.
These are the charop guidelines as they currently exist, to my knowledge:
Level 16 Gestalt
Tier 8 Mythic "gestalt" (I'm assuming this means we choose two Paths, similarly as if everyone took the Dual Path mythic Feat, but we also get double teh talents?)
16 CR worth of templates
8 "free" levels of a Prestige Class (?)
Houserules mentioned in Campaign infoAdditionally we have some sort of Domain ability that effectively makes us demigods (aside Mythic)? I saw the acronym HOPF multiple times across the last 8 pages but I must have missed where it was explained what exactly that was.
Edit: Ah, I think HOPF stands for "Horrifically Overpowered Feats", then?
You'd have to re fluff it
Can do, or maybe I'll swap to something more generally planar oriented.
Also can you elaborate on "the Gray"? You largely explain the gist of The Black, and the other planes are standard D&D cosmology, but you've only ever mentioned the Gray by name, not what it's all about.
Can do, or maybe I'll swap to something more generally planar oriented.
Also can you elaborate on "the Gray"? You largely explain the gist of The Black, and the other planes are standard D&D cosmology, but you've only ever mentioned the Gray by name, not what it's all about.
https://darksun.fandom.com/wiki/Gray
Also, their is a race of soul stealing creatures native to this dimension called Reapers that I am adding. They are a mixture of yuggoloths, daemons, and the infernals from iron kingdoms. They are aliens, not the souls of petitioners. There are cults dedicated to them on other planes.
There is also a large ocean in the Gray that is similar to the True Afterlife from Ghostwalk.
There is no great wheel in this cosmology. The planes I listed are the ones that exist
You said 'if nobody else has objections'. I'm objecting, lol.
Some examples:
Cosmic Toughness
Your HD become D100s.
Exclusivity
You can only be affected by one opponent each round.
Heavy Eradication
100% chance to overcome crit immunity.
Legendary Ability Score
Single ability score doubled.
Etc, etc, etc....
I say we just choose to avoid the high powered craziness as a gentleman's agreement... though to be honest, I really don't have a problem with anyone picking something from that. We aren't competing with each other, and the combats will be pretty crazy anyways. When else would we get the chance to use this kind of material?
I imagine in this world that pocket dimensions are less planes and more like actual warps in space-time where matter is magically accumulated. Probably located in the Black or Grey, since those are the largest planes.
Some of that would let me use the dragons with 40,000 hit points in encounters
I say we just choose to avoid the high powered craziness as a gentleman's agreement... though to be honest, I really don't have a problem with anyone picking something from that. We aren't competing with each other, and the combats will be pretty crazy anyways. When else would we get the chance to use this kind of material?You said 'if nobody else has objections'. I'm objecting, lol.
Some examples:
Cosmic Toughness
Your HD become D100s.
Exclusivity
You can only be affected by one opponent each round.
Heavy Eradication
100% chance to overcome crit immunity.
Legendary Ability Score
Single ability score doubled.
Etc, etc, etc....
--plus, let's be honest. D100 health? The ability to crit anything? Those aren't the greatest examples. One of them targets the absute weakest method of killing someone, and the other is something that I'd argue should have been in the game already. People like seeing good things from rolling 20s. The idea that there was a super-common monster type that negated that was bad game design.
Ya'll are ridiculous. There are some incredibly powerful cosmic abilities. I just listed a few of the weaker ones, LOL.
I'm really not okay with having access to them, as it will push us way over the top as far as power level goes.
--plus, let's be honest. D100 health? The ability to crit anything? Those aren't the greatest examples. One of them targets the absute weakest method of killing someone, and the other is something that I'd argue should have been in the game already. People like seeing good things from rolling 20s. The idea that there was a super-common monster type that negated that was bad game design.
I'm really not sure what you mean here. What do you mean by 'targeting the absolute weakest method of killing someone' and the other is something that should have already been in the game?
Also, just a heads up: I currently have a Cha of 110, doubling that would give me 220, with a modifier of 105.
That's freakin ridiculous.
But, there's a abilities that lets you completely negate all of a foes feats(Have fun with that rebuilding all our enemies Seb), one that deals d% of health, the ability to ignore the pre-reqs of divine abilities(this is actually really freakin strong, *trust* me, as it gets around needing epic BAB, massively high ranks in skills, etc, letting one take divine abilities we would otherwise not be able to take any time soon), and the ability to cast an unlimited of spells per day.
There's even more than just that, but come on guys, do we really need this level of power??
What if we just did only 1 or 2 per person instead of 4?
Maybe I'll make Xartuk more a strategist instead, since the planar cosmology is more limited. Still somewhat of a mentalist focus, but a little less one-trick now that the theme I had in mind is less viable.
A) HP is weak. Having lots of HP do Doesn't stop you from being vulnerable to rocket tag, it just delaya fighters from insta-killing you, maybe.
B) crit fishing wouldn't be busted if people didn't keep adding stupid stuff like staggering criticals. Rather than getting rid of a fun balancing mechanic to critical fails, I.E. giving creatures immunity, they should have just kept crits as rolling more dice. Being able to crit anything isn't overpowered, it's how the game should work.
C) if having double your stats would break the game, then don't have them. Nobody's twisting your arm on it.
Now, the rest of them? Sure! Broke as hell. So why don't you use the in-book limitation of esoteric power, and put distinct limiters on what you choose, so that you can balance an ability to be cool and flavorful rather than broken, then run it past the GM?
Curious why, other than 'they are cool/we'll never get another chance to use em', should we actually have access to cosmic abilities?
If we went with the formula of our 16 gestalt levels + the CR of the Hero Deity template, that would get us +26 to our artifacts.
This would mean we can't afford a cosmic ability on them, which is +36, but does potentially gives us 4 divine abilities per artifact for a total of an extra 16(should we go that route).
I feel that's plenty of extra power, as we would normally only get 3 divine abilities. Getting up to 19 total is a heck of a power boost.
A) HP is weak. Having lots of HP do Doesn't stop you from being vulnerable to rocket tag, it just delaya fighters from insta-killing you, maybe.
There comes a certain point where having enough of something that sucks becomes something that's good.
When you're multiplying numbers by 10, well, that's the point that kind of thing generally happens. The whole idea of "rocket tag" is endintg the fight in a single turn; if you have enough HP to not die in one turn, you have successfully obviated rocket tag.
B) crit fishing wouldn't be busted if people didn't keep adding stupid stuff like staggering criticals. Rather than getting rid of a fun balancing mechanic to critical fails, I.E. giving creatures immunity, they should have just kept crits as rolling more dice. Being able to crit anything isn't overpowered, it's how the game should work.
The ignoring crit immunity thing probably isn't a big deal to be fair, I think there are ways to get similar effects within extant classes actually.
C) if having double your stats would break the game, then don't have them. Nobody's twisting your arm on it.
If one person doubles their stats, everybody is pretty much obligated to do so or fall behind.
Trying to keep some semblance of parity among the party is important in games like this, because wild imbalances directly lead to people dropping out since their character is comparatively dead weight.
That's something people fundamentally misunderstand regarding RPGs. Yes, it is a cooperative endeavor. that does not mean balance is irrelevant. Intra-party balance in particular is extremely relevant, and is the source of quite a lot of strife among RPG groups. There's a reason caster/martial disparity arguments are some of the biggest flamewars around.
Re: 'They're cool', what's so cool about them? Simple numbers increases are boring. Why does adding an extra 0 to your character's HP total or hitting 'x2' on a stat excite you so much?
A) HP is weak. Having lots of HP do Doesn't stop you from being vulnerable to rocket tag, it just delaya fighters from insta-killing you, maybe.There comes a certain point where having enough of something that sucks becomes something that's good.
When you're multiplying numbers by 10, well, that's the point that kind of thing generally happens. The whole idea of "rocket tag" is endintg the fight in a single turn; if you have enough HP to not die in one turn, you have successfully obviated rocket tag.
B) crit fishing wouldn't be busted if people didn't keep adding stupid stuff like staggering criticals. Rather than getting rid of a fun balancing mechanic to critical fails, I.E. giving creatures immunity, they should have just kept crits as rolling more dice. Being able to crit anything isn't overpowered, it's how the game should work.The ignoring crit immunity thing probably isn't a big deal to be fair, I think there are ways to get similar effects within extant classes actually.
C) if having double your stats would break the game, then don't have them. Nobody's twisting your arm on it.If one person doubles their stats, everybody is pretty much obligated to do so or fall behind.
Trying to keep some semblance of parity among the party is important in games like this, because wild imbalances directly lead to people dropping out since their character is comparatively dead weight.
That's something people fundamentally misunderstand regarding RPGs. Yes, it is a cooperative endeavor. that does not mean balance is irrelevant. Intra-party balance in particular is extremely relevant, and is the source of quite a lot of strife among RPG groups. There's a reason caster/martial disparity arguments are some of the biggest flamewars around.
Re: 'They're cool', what's so cool about them? Simple numbers increases are boring. Why does adding an extra 0 to your character's HP total or hitting 'x2' on...
Enervation, banishment, Maze, vorpal weapons, baleful polymorph, ability drain, infinite stunlock, etc. Etc. Are very common at the CTs of the creatures we're fighting. I'm just saying, I fully expect to be entirely capable of tanking without D100s, and quite frankly the option to have them strikes me as a trap. HP is super-weak. If there's a stat that buffs it into relevance, great--but it's not going to change the real threat.
Again, if you think that doubling a stat is crazy, then don't. I don't care one way or another--whatever you do, my plan is to support you executing it.
But you're right. Numbers aren't cool, it's what you do with them. Which is why I don't have pretty much any straight number increasers, and 14 fighter bonus feats which are nothing but style feats.
But if people WANT to have big numbers, that's fine--as long as we agree what the numbers should be.
Good points all around. I'm fine with not taking cosmic abilities that people think are overboard like doubling a stat. The d100 thing probably doesnt make sense for my character. But I'm sure I could find something that fits his theme.
We should also probably only get 2 artifacts
]If one person doubles their stats, everybody is pretty much obligated to do so or fall behind.
Trying to keep some semblance of parity among the party is important in games like this, because wild imbalances directly lead to people dropping out since their character is comparatively dead weight.
That's something people fundamentally misunderstand regarding RPGs. Yes, it is a cooperative endeavor. that does not mean balance is irrelevant. Intra-party balance in particular is extremely relevant, and is the source of quite a lot of strife among RPG groups. There's a reason caster/martial disparity arguments are some of the biggest flamewars around.
This is really important. I know for a fact Seb's other Dark Sun game lost players specifically because of this sort of thing. It became too difficult to properly keep up, the numbers and bonuses became too much of a pain to deal with, and people lost the desire to play, despite how *awesome* the story was.
I worry that the same will likely happen here.
looking for final ruling on the artifacts so i can move forward with building (or not) those
Is this list of character concepts still accurate BTW? I don't remember things being stated otherwise, but there seem to be only three other active posters ATM, so maybe two people dropped and I missed it:
First Apprentice to the Archmage
Chief Assistant to the Companion's Envoy to the Lands of the Well (this is the blink dog)
The First Sword of the King's Champion.
The Queen's favorite Spy-Assassin
The Foremost 'Lone-Wolf'/Free Investigator
I've hit the "options paralysis" portion of charop and wanna know what I'm working with as far as open concepts, since I find games like this work best when I have a very clear, fairly narrow theme in mind.
I'm putting together a Legendary Rogue/Investigator/Vigilante/Inquisitor with levels in the Legendary Assassin PrC along with the Master Spy and Master Thief ones.
My concept will be uber spymaster/assassin. Taking the secrets and thievery portfolios. Also a strong focus on gathering info and 'knowing all the things' but via contacts and connections, not lots and lots of knowledges.
Were there any limits on 3rd party material? People seem to be making use of Dreamscarred Press material as well as Spheres of Power.
Considering making a "Tech-priest" equivalent, and material from Thunderscape would be quite helpful in that.
Generally not, Seb has a massive collection of 3pp material, as well as 3.x stuff, so pretty much everything is fair game.
I would still run it by him first however.
All third party material is admissible. I'm still thinking about the other rules questions. Ill try to update with my decision tomorrow.
I have 1200 pdfs and a library of physical books. Monkeygod is Corry. I have lots of stuff. There's a blow out 70% off pf sale on rpgdrivethru this week I recommend to everyone. I'm going to pick up the Athera, Rhune, and Shinar settings to cannibalize for world.
Rad. I love Thunderscape. I've run a few games using the material but have never gotten to really make use of it as a player.
I can provide a legally purchased PDF copy if you need it, Seb, or copy-paste whatever I decide to use, whichever works.
I want this game to make use of a lot of alien and science fiction stuff that doesn't otherwise see much play. The concept is that the Black is sort of like warp space and various high tech societies from the the Alternity Stardrive setting have crashed on this planet. There is detritus from previous colonization attempts strewn around.
Hey Seb, can you make a ruling on the artifacts, as that's a major impasse for people to continue working on their characters.
I already said above I'm thinking about it and I'll try to post a decision tomorrow. I'm not ready to decide yet.
I already said above I'm thinking about it and I'll try to post a decision tomorrow. I'm not ready to decide yet.
Ah, sorry, I missed that. All good :)
Would it be a problem if I were an Enlightened Construct?
I was thinking something along the lines of being heavily injured while inside one of those old/lost hyper-advanced spaceships and being converted into an AI, then downloaded into a robot body by the ship's medic AI or some such.
That's fine. If it helps to come up with fluff, the Stardrive Alternity setting and the planet from the Tale of the Comet both exist in this cosmology.
After thinking it over, and much discussion, I changed my mind about the power of the artifacts. I'm okay with all four having +42, and thus possibly giving us each 4 cosmic abilities.
Also, as I was going over some *old* notes I found for a different game that used the Ascension rules, I realized that a mundane, non epic/mythic/HOP feat is equal to 1/4 an artifact bonus. Also, epic feats were 1/2 a bonus. I feel mythic and HOP feats should cost 1/2 as well.
I'm making a concept that consists of seducer witch, bard and sorcerer, heavy on illusions, enchantments (with the ability to overcome immunities there), but also eveything else arcane with a touch of divine magic and access to channel energy.
The character is the twin of another player and sort of the seer/oracle/soothsayer, able to read peoples pasts and futures, entertainment with music, dancing and other fun stuff (probably love and arts portfolios).
Depending on how your standing is with the character you experience them either as a pleasant dream or more nightmarish.
Thanks to very high skills a role as negotiator and ambassador is very likely.
I've got two concepts in mind; they are a pair of fraternal twins. She's the first sword of the kings champion, as a in your face tank, damage, and debuffs. Legendary fighter / vizier/ unchained rogue / harbinger with Umbral blade and great mind and Amplifier prestige classes, and magic user :Psion.
The other concept is less well defined at this stage, and MG's concept is pretty similar - a stay in the shadows troubleshooter, tactician, party buffer and knowledge dispenser. Not necessarily doing the dirty work, but ensuring it gets done, and working for the queen. He'd be the more thoughtful, have a plan, have a contingency type of character whereas the first sword is a "run in and break the obstacle" type.
So I've obviously got the Spellthief. As a base chassis, he's sort of a jack-of-all-trades, master-of-none.
He's a Timethief/Spellthief/Nar Demonbinder, with his 8 levels in Hellbreaker and Prestigious'd Fiend of Possession. He's Gestalted Magus Far Hand Adept.
Out of combat, he's an assist-other specialist who can use his unique possession, power-stealing, and demon-binding skills to provide low-mid level magic support. In desperate situations, he has powerful shadow-magic he can use to fill in higher-level magic gaps, though he's loathe to use it.
In combat, he's a sneak-attack specialist who specializes in robbing his opponents of their abilities. He's capable of striking from unexpected angles, empowering his allies by strengthening either them or their equipment, and can cast spells as need be.
The other concept is the Temple Speaker. He's a Fighter/Monk Brother of Seals/Dragon Fury with Prestigious Elocator and Gestalted Warpmaster/Timethief. He's pretty much an offensive tank. He forces the enemy to acknowledge his presence by denying their ability to make AoOs. If they don't sacrifice their AoOs on him, then he becomes a long-range tactical melee specialist, sundering equipment, natural armor, etc. etc. until they're left basically powerless.
Out of combat, he serves as a people-watcher; while someone else interacts with people, he sits in the background, observing, collating data, and finally sharing once he thinks it's relevant.
Anyone going a divine magic/cleric-oracle-druid route?
I got some access through witch and bard, but focus on arcane.
Also while i got channel energy, it's not a focus and i'm probably action starved between bardic abilities, witch hexes and casting spells.
I focus on CHA obviously, followed by DEX. Could be good if stat focus is a bit spread as well and we have someone who has high INT, someone with high WIS, someone with high STR.
After thinking it over, and much discussion, I changed my mind about the power of the artifacts. I'm okay with all four having +42, and thus possibly giving us each 4 cosmic abilities.
Also, as I was going over some *old* notes I found for a different game that used the Ascension rules, I realized that a mundane, non epic/mythic/HOP feat is equal to 1/4 an artifact bonus. Also, epic feats were 1/2 a bonus. I feel mythic and HOP feats should cost 1/2 as well.
Can you further explain that?
You said a divine feat costs 6 and a cosmic feat 36.I thought that's 6 and 36 from 4*42?
What is meant with artifact bonus here? 1 point?
i am going with Assistant to Chief Envoy of the Companions, so basically the Ambassador of the blink dogs to the umbral kobolds.
For classes, i went Sage 16 (spheres of power)/Eclipse 16 (akashic stuff)
I took gestalt Cryptic (Brutal Disruptor archetype, psionic class)
I took gestalt Rogue (Time Thief archetype, spheres of power stuff)
I took HOPF mythic Magic User for Cleric (cast as level 16).
I took HOPF Magic Source to add Wizard spells to my Cleric casting
I took HOPF Magic User for Psion (manifest as level 8)
I took Prestigious for Dune Trader (Dark Sun 3.0 class) for story reasons
I took Prestigious for Spheres Archwizard (spheres of power)
I took Prestigious for Great Mind (spheres of might)
I took Moon and Travel portfolios for story reasons
long story short i have extreme speed and go first in combat. I can make clones of myself and i have the whole Dimensional line of feats and some of the mythic versions so i can flank with myself and with my clones. I have many spare actions and partial actions and can cast every spell and SLA as a swift action. Teamwork feats as well to proc AoOs as well as Opportunist to further take advantage of AoOs. I can steal spells, SLAs, points from various class-based pools, and actions up to a standard action from the enemy. various debuffs here and there. Highest skills will be acrobatics, stealth, perception, and all knowledges. I should be able to be stealthed just about all the time with a combination of Lurker and Hellcat Stealth. I will have knowledge based on having traveled everywhere (story from travel domain) as well as seeing into the future and some light divination (though I anticipate that to be almost always foiled). DBZ levels of fighting where people can barely track the speed. blink and haste at all times, dimension door at will, inflict madness/confusion on strikes, ignore/turn off regen/fast healing/immunities.
Themes are travel, trade, gravity, time, "stuff from space", teleportation, etc.
I haven't settled on what Mythic I will take yet, probably Genius and Stranger.
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Can you further explain that?
You said a divine feat costs 6 and a cosmic feat 36.
I thought that's 6 and 36 from 4*42?
What is meant with artifact bonus here? 1 point?
Each artifact, which can be any piece of gear imaginable, is treated like a weapon or armor, in that they have a bonus similar to enhancements.
Except that you can use them for literally anything. Enhancement bonus, special properties(flaming, keen, ghost touch, etc), stat boosts, feats(mundane, epic, mythic, HOP), divine abilities, cosmic abilities, etc.
Assuming we go with each artifact has the equivalent of a +42 bonus, you could do:
7 divine abilities on one.
1 cosmic and 1 divine on another.
4 divine abilities and +18 worth of special properties(like for a weapon).
Some combination of feats, divine abilities and special properties that total +42.
As one set of examples.
And how much would Mythic HOPF be on it?
Also, calling it out now, I took the mythic HOPF that states only 1 person in the campaign world can have it. The super duper be all end all you go first feat
And I took all the spare casting stuff just for versatility as my character was previously either on his own or escorting weaker individuals. There will have been a few times he was working with like-power folks which will be in some of our backstories together.
What's Prestigious from?
What's Prestigious from?
i think its one of the HOPF in the first HOPF book. gives you levels of a prestige class equal to your level -5 then /2. so 5 levels in our case.
After thinking it over, and much discussion, I changed my mind about the power of the artifacts. I'm okay with all four having +42, and thus possibly giving us each 4 cosmic abilities.
Also, as I was going over some *old* notes I found for a different game that used the Ascension rules, I realized that a mundane, non epic/mythic/HOP feat is equal to 1/4 an artifact bonus. Also, epic feats were 1/2 a bonus. I feel mythic and HOP feats should cost 1/2 as well.
Okay, let's go with this, is there something else I need to adjudicate rules wise?
Who's making a non-kobold character right now?
This is going to be a serious fluff issue, because I've explained to myself in my post above, how the ningishzidda would have access to a living vortex and thus be able to grant spells to templars, and how that would look in their society, but I'm going to have to work on ideas for non kobold characters, and see if I can make that fit. I'd prefer to have as few of those with as few new different races for that reason -- I don't want to have to invent a half dozen new reasons for characters to have access to living vorticies, that's really going to strain the setting fluff.
Well, I have a non-Kobold, but all of the 'spells' he has access to are SLAs.
The current working fluff I have is thus:
The grand-master is the Hobgoblin. He's the highest-order monk within the Temple, one of the Custodians. Their singular job is to protect the Temple from potential threats, with the aid of Intellect Shards that've been implanted into especially powerful artifacts of the Old World. Typically speaking, they're granted insight into the nature of Time and Space in order to help them achieve these goals.
When times are peaceful, and they have no other duties, it is the privilege of the Custodian, though not their primary duty, to maintain the Temple. They are allowed the tools, in the form of key magical spells, to ensure that critical functions of the Temple can be repaired, replaced, or expanded upon as need be.
I was imagining, however, that the spells might not necessarily be super-magical in nature; being as they are maintaining a long line of extremely powerful technological beings, and being as the amount of SLAs they have are limited to about 8 over the course of ALL custodians , it really might just be something like limited-function Nanomachines that reside in their body.
I've actually been considering having the last remaining technology be Nanomachine Vats, that basically are able to self-maintain but at the expense of resources, many of which are provided via blood sacrifice.
Mine is a hybrid blink dog / umbral kobold created to serve the secret purpose of the blink dogs. He would look pretty much half and half, but he is albino, and also he usually takes whatever form he needs as he has shapechange at will.
The moons are his vortices
Who's making a non-kobold character right now?
This is going to be a serious fluff issue, because I've explained to myself in my post above, how the ningishzidda would have access to a living vortex and thus be able to grant spells to templars, and how that would look in their society, but I'm going to have to work on ideas for non kobold characters, and see if I can make that fit. I'd prefer to have as few of those with as few new different races for that reason -- I don't want to have to invent a half dozen new reasons for characters to have access to living vorticies, that's really going to strain the setting fluff.
My character is sort of a kobold? He's a robot, but was originally an umbral kobold, and still has the shape of one.
Okay, those are both okay, because they can partake in some fashion of the kobold ancestor worship system.