Sebecloki's Untitled Campaign

Game Master Sebecloki


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

That sounds very interesting!

I don't know about shadow kobolds, are wayang and drow also viable?
Or gnomes?


There are 'black' gnomes that live in this world -- the history is that the gnomes lived in the feywild and tried to fight the Champions of Rajaat by waking up a xxyth lord that was entombed there, but it backfired, and ended up eating the feywild instead, which created this dark dimension called the black, of which this planet is one part.

The black gnomes are one branch of the gnomes that tried to sustain their lives from shadow, whereas another branch, the white gnomes, now live beneath Tyr.

I haven't thought of a role for drow or wayang yet. Wayangs look like they occupy the same niche as umbral kobolds (small humanoids with a shadow association), I think we can use templates to model any mechanical effect or fluff concept you want to get out of wayangs.

I haven't thought about drow yet. The guiding rule, though it's a general concept, not an exact science, is to try to 'flip' stuff from Athas.

So I think the elves should be primarily sedentary, not particularly quick moving, and live underground. They would also not be traders.


Monkeygod wrote:

I would be okay with running two characters, but not simultaneously. I would endeavor to swap them out 'per mission' as befits the scene/story arc.

In order to help facilitate this, I have two wildly different characters in mind:

One would be an Umbral Kobold that I would like to have the Apostle Kyton template. This character would likely be some sort of divine priest, of either the Dragon Kings or the Kyton Demagogues(Assuming they exist in this setting).

The other character would also be an Umbral Kobold, and some sort of skill monkey.

There would be similar figures, filling the same niche as the Elemental Princes and Princesses, but the situation is the same as with elemental priests -- the priest would not be getting spells from the Elemental Prince but rather the element. In this case, the priest would be an elemental cleric of Shadow or Negative Energy.

The divine servants of the Dragon Kings are all occult casters of some variety, or alchemists, or shifters, or some other mechanical combination to simulate a cleric with a portfolio of divine mutation and reptilian power. No one is getting spells from the Dragon Kings -- they're just big, old dragons, they couldn't grant that if they wanted to.


I think I'm going to introduce the idea of character trees from Dark Sun 2e to deal with the desire to create non kobold characters.

If you look that up, it's the idea that you have a 'bank' of more than 1 character -- I think in 2e it was like 3-5 or something. I would only require 2.

With this idea, if you want to make a non kobold, you have to make a kobold as well; you don't have to play both simultaneously, but I want everyone to have a character that can participate in the kobold-centric story arcs and I do want to engage in the mechanical experimentation to see what people can do with a kobold chassis.

Does that seem fair to everyone?


To reiterate on campaign ideas -- this isn't going to be a lot of hack and slash. Most of the campaign is going to be talking, investigating, and solving puzzles. The setting isn't going to be conducive to just running off on the hunt.

The wilderness has stuff life soul-draining shadows and lots of incorporeal predators running around outside the major cities. The civilized races stick to their settlements for a reason -- because it's necessary for survival.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Yes i understood that. Got a good idea^^


sounds good to me. My character idea has mobility in mind and I will have some other stuff going on to help with in-settlement stuff. Gestalt helps with that to ensure he can do both.


I could get down to this.
Major weakness, you say...Hmmm.
Hmm, hmm, hmm.
Spellthief, weakness, Umbral Kobold...
Well, let's think here. If we were to say that Spellthieving were to fit into one of the criteria, I'd say it'd be...Defiling? It'd be a form of defiling, right?
So I think I'd be making a Defiler. But why, I'd have to think. Well, I think I'd go with Lawful Evil, with the character desperately clinging to life by stealing magical energies from the world around him to sustain his rapidly withering mortal coil.
So, no being an actual Dragon naturally, and the oldest age category, and maybe some form of non-healable damage for every day that goes by where he doesn't sacrifice one spell slot of every spell level for every spell-casting class he has?
Maybe also a palpable aura of malignant force whenever he spellthieves, maybe severely reduced mobility?


ok so my first character idea is:

Blink Dog
Moon Magic, specifically Ral. Blink dogs are naturally attuned to this sort of magic by their very nature as blink dogs.

For utility, I will try to keep him a viable face or assistant-face type. He will be big into teleportation and movement and such. To fit with the Ral theme, i'll lean heavily into Warp and Telekinesis spheres magically and Athletics sphere martially, with maybe some Blood and Duelist or something for offense, Creation/Alchemy for extra utility and to reflect mercantile efforts.

Second character would be the dusk kobold, heavy into Illusion sphere for sure, Creation as well and/or perhaps Dark.


As I posted in the Dark Sun game:

I'm only interested in this game if you're sure you can continue to run Dark Sun and Rise.

That said,

Do you have a general idea of what level we'll be? I don't need an exact, but a range of possible levels will be helpful in figuring out my character(s). I think you've said you were planning on this being 'high powered' but wasn't sure if you meant via actual high levels, or just due to your particular rules of character creation.


Monkeygod wrote:

As I posted in the Dark Sun game:

I'm only interested in this game if you're sure you can continue to run Dark Sun and Rise.

That said,

Do you have a general idea of what level we'll be? I don't need an exact, but a range of possible levels will be helpful in figuring out my character(s). I think you've said you were planning on this being 'high powered' but wasn't sure if you meant via actual high levels, or just due to your particular rules of character creation.

I am planning to continue the other games.

I was thinking of level 10 or 12, with the assumption we won't do a lot of leveling up outside of that, so what you build you'll be dealing with for a long time.


The idea I had in mind is that you're not the king or queen, or thief guildmaster, or archmage, but the next level below that -- you're a duke, or 2nd in command, or ruling council member, or apprentice to the archmage etc.

I'm incorporating the idea of the significant weakness so I have an obvious way to challenge powerful characters if I need to.

I'm considering this a bit more -- what would people think about the same rules as the Dark Sun game, except different rules for rolling ability scores and health amount, but be level 16, with 8 mythic tiers. We'd take 1-2 months to make characters so I can work on fluff, and we'd assume you're basically staying as is until maybe you get moved up to 18/9 and 20/10, but basically you need to make the character you're playing as. Then I can figure out all the power curve stuff before hand. I'd like to use the dreadful monsters from the Immortals Handbooks with many thousands of hp and stuff. I already have one in mind for something.

My basic reasoning here is that you need to be of a specific 'tier' of character to have a reasonable role in this story -- this is an issue that effects your entire civilization, and are dealing with existential threats. Fifth level characters are not getting sent on a quest across time and dimensions to rescue their entire society from an imminent threat.


either way sounds good to me. fighting crazy monsters and going outside of the established cities (seems like high power level would be needed) would be cool.

I might actually have my character have vigilante levels and a way to reliably shapechange into a dusk kobold so that might be fun haha


I'm attaching an example of a monster I want to use -- it will be like a super powered heffalump that is associated with a traveling circus in the wastelands that draws in unwary travelers and then consumes their minds and souls. Tell me what level you think you'd have to be to confront such an entity.

ABOMINATION,
GIBBORIM
Mighty One
Gargantuan Outsider (Abomination, Chaotic, Evil, Extraplanar)
Hit Dice: 65d8+2080 (2600 hp)
Initiative: +9
Speed: 80 ft. (16 squares)
Armor Class: 57 (-4 size, +1 Dex, +4 divine, +30 natural, +16 deflection),
touch 27, flat-footed 56
Base Attack/Grapple: +65/+89
Attack: Gore +90 melee (4d8+40/19-20)
Full Attack: Gore +90 melee (4d8+40/19-20), slam +85 melee (4d6+28)
Space/Reach: 40 ft./40 ft.
Special Attacks: Breath weapon, charge, dimensional folding, spell-like
abilities, trample (8d8+40), terrible trumpeting, ungodly stench
Special Qualities: Abomination traits, acid immunity, damage reduction
30/epic, good and piercing or slashing, distasteful, fast healing 30, internal
limbo, legendary constitution, outsider traits, spell resistance 79, summon
gibborim
Saves: Fort +66, Ref +35, Will +37
Abilities: Str 59, Dex 12, Con 74, Int 14, Wis 25, Cha 42
Skills: Concentration +104, Hide +61, Knowledge (arcana) +74,
Knowledge (the planes) +74, Listen +79, Search +74, Spellcraft +82, Spot
+79, Survival +79, Use Magic Device +88
Feats: Alertness, Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Great Cleave, Great Fortitude,
Improved Bull Rush, Improved Critical (gore), Improved Initiative,
Improved Natural Attack (gore and slam), Improved Overrun, Improved
Sunder, Power Attack, Track, Weapon Focus (gore)
Epic Feats: Devastating Critical (gore), Dire Charge, Epic Fortitude, Epic
Potency* (x2), Legendary Tracker, Overwhelming Critical (gore)
*New epic feat - see page 3
Environment: Any
Organization: Solitary or herd (5-30)
Challenge Rating: 48
Treasure: None (external), Double Standard (internal)
Alignment: Always chaotic evil
Advancement: 66-96 HD (Gargantuan), 97-129 HD (Colossal)
Level Adjustment: +8


Super high level, lots of mythic, and gestalt? Sounds like lots of cool stuff. I'm good with that :).

EDIT: I'll get back to you on the level required to take that beastie on...


River of Sticks wrote:

Super high level, lots of mythic, and gestalt? Sounds like lots of cool stuff. I'm good with that :).

My idea is that you're basically the highest level in the society that can go on an adventure. 20/10 would be the archmage, king, queen, guildmaster, merchant house liege, high priest. They can't go anywhere because they have to keep society from collapsing and rule etc. You're the next tier down, of which there are several representatives, so you're not as indispensable, but you're also strong enough to deal with a civilization ending crisis.


haha wow yeah i'd have to be pretty high up there for sure. honestly i'd think we would have to be over level 20 for that, though im not intimately familiar with what all stuff comes with mythic, i have only played in a few games.

it does give me a lot of good ideas for reviving old characters though

how do you feel about monstrous templates? or starting as a typically non-PC race using up most or all of one side of a gestalt?


Here's a few more monsters I'd want to use, let me know what would be a decent level in your minds for this kind of stuff:

Draco-Druid
Dragon (Extraplanar, Plant)
Environment: Any
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: Wyrmling 26, very young 32, young 38, juvenile 44,
young adult 50, adult 56, mature adult 62, old 68, very old 74, ancient 80,
wyrm 86, great wyrm 92.
Treasure: Triple Standard.
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement Range: Wyrmling 27-31 HD (Gargantuan), very young
33-37 HD (Colossal), young 39-43 HD (Colossal), juvenile 45-49 HD
(Colossal), young adult 51-55 HD (Colossal), adult 57-61 HD (Colossal),
mature adult 63 HD (Colossal), 64-67 HD (Titanic), old 69-73 HD (Titanic),
very old 75-79 HD (Titanic), ancient 81-85 HD (Titanic), wyrm 87-91 HD
(Titanic), great wyrm 92-97 HD (Titanic), great, great wyrm 99-103
(Titanic).
Level Adjustment: Wyrmling +13, very young +16, young +19 juvenile
+22, young adult +25, adult +28, mature adult +31, old +34, very old +37,
ancient +40, wyrm +43, great wyrm +46.

This mighty creature resembles a cross between a dragon and a tree.

Great Wyrm T 92d20+2116+1104 108 (-16 size, +8 deflection, +15 divine, +92/+167 +131 +86 +63 +86 94 82
(5060 hp) +91 natural) touch 17, flat-footed 108

Quintessence Elemental, Elder
Huge Elemental Huge Elemental Huge Elemental
Hit Dice: 40d8+680 (1000 hp) 60d8+1440 (1920 hp) 80d8+2480 (3120 hp)
Initiative: +38 +50 +61
Speed: 120 ft. (24 sqares) 120 ft. (24 squares) 120 ft. (24 squares)
Armor Class: 30 (-2 size, +22 Dex) 38 (-2 size, +30 Dex) 45 (-2 size, +37 Dex)
Base Attack/Grapple: +30/+56 +45/+78 +60/+100
Attack: Slam +61 melee (20d6+18) Slam +91 melee (30d6+25) Slam +123 melee (40d6+32)
Full Attack: 3 slams +61 melee (20d6+18) 3 slams +91 melee (30d6+25) 3 slams +123 melee (40d6+32)
Space/Reach: 15 ft./15 ft. 20 ft./20 ft. 25 ft./25 ft.
Special Attacks: Soul mastery, spirit bomb, unbind Soul mastery, spirit bomb, unbind Soul mastery, spirit bomb, unbind
Special Qualities: Damage reduction 20/-, elemental traits, Damage reduction 30/-, elemental traits, Damage reduction 40/-, elemental traits,
quickness quickness quickness
Saves: Fort +40, Ref +54, Will +27 Fort +62, Ref +80, Will +38 Fort +79, Ref +101, Will +48
Abilities: Str 46, Dex 55, Con 44 Str 61, Dex 70, Con 58 Str 75, Dex 85, Con 72
Int 6, Wis 11, Cha 11 Int 6, Wis 11, Cha 11 Int 6, Wis 11, Cha 11
Skills: Listen +32, Spot +31 Listen +46, Spot +45 Listen +60, Spot +59
Feats: Alertness, Blind-Fight, Combat Reflexes, Alertness, Blind-Fight, Combat Reflexes, Alertness, Blind-Fight, Combat Reflexes,
Dodge, Great Fortitude, Improved Dodge, Great Fortitude, Improved Dodge, Great Fortitude, Improved
InitiativeB, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, InitiativeB, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, InitiativeB, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes,
Mobility, Power Attack, Spring Attack, Mobility, Power Attack, Spring Attack, Mobility, Power Attack, Spring Attack,
Weapon FinesseB, Weapon Focus (Slam) Weapon FinesseB, Weapon Focus (Slam) Weapon FinesseB, Weapon Focus (Slam)
Epic Feats: Dire Charge, Epic Will, Superior Dire Charge, Epic Fortitude, Epic Dire Charge, Epic Fortitude, Epic
Initiative Prowess (x5), Epic Reflexes, Epic Will, Prowess (x11), Epic Reflexes, Epic Will,
Superior Initiative Superior Initiative
Environment: Any Any Any
Organization: Solitary Solitary Solitary
Challenge Rating: 26 40 52
Treasure: None None None
Alignment: Any Any Any
Advancement: 41-59 HD (Huge) 61-79 HD (Huge) 81-119 HD (Huge)
Level Adjustment: +40 +60 +80

This one below is the outer level of power -- let me know what level would be needed for this, the others are closer to what I'll actually use

ANGEL, CHERUBIM
Cosmic Custodians, Supra-Galactic Deva
Macro-Fine Outsider (Angel, Extraplanar, Good)
Hit Dice: 133d100+3724 (34,048 hp)
Initiative: +45
Speed: 1020 ft. (204 squares), fly 4080 ft. (perfect)
Armor Class: 117 (-32 size, +33 deflection, +13 Dex, +24 divine, +60
natural), touch 42, flat-footed 86
Base Attack/Grapple: +133/+224
Attack: Claw +193 melee (30d10+67 plus 30d10 divine fire/19-20, x3)
Full Attack: Bite +190 melee (40d10+33 plus 40d10 divine fire, x3), 2 claws
+193 melee (30d10+67 plus 30d10 divine fire/19-20, x3), 6 wing slaps +190
melee (15d10+33 plus 15d10 divine fire, x3)
Space/Reach: 170 ft./115 ft.
Special Attacks: Anaretic, divine fire, prismatic visage, re-echoing roar,
spell-like abilities, spells
Special Qualities: Angelic traits (first choir), cosmic string, damage
reduction 65/-, divine traits (elder one), regeneration 65, spell resistance
167
Saves: Fort +120, Ref +105, Will +125
Abilities: Str 145 (+67), Dex 36, Con 66, Int 64, Wis 76, Cha 76
Skills: Omnicompetant - All skills 160 + ability bonus
Feats: Awesome Blow, Combat Reflexes, Cleave, Empower Spell, Enlarge
Spell, Extend Spell, Great Cleave, Heighten Spell, Improved Bull Rush,
Improved Critical (claw), Improved Initiative, Improved Natural Attack
(bite, claw and wing slap), Maximise Spell, Multiattack, Power Attack,
Quicken Spell, Silent Spell, Weapon Focus (claw), Widen Spell
Epic Feats: Automatic Metamagic Capacity* (x16), Blinding Speed,
Devastating Critical (claw), Dire Charge, Enhance Spell, Epic Spellcasting,
Metamagic Freedom*, Overwhelming Critical (claw), Superior Initiative
*New epic feats - see page 3
Environment: Upper Planes
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 136
Treasure: Double Crown of Cosmic Intervention
Alignment: Always good (chaotic, lawful or neutral, dependant upon the
plane)
Advancement: 134-176 HD (Macro-Fine: Cherubim), 177-265 HD
(Macro-Fine: Seraphim)
Level Adjustment: +72


If it helps to estimate, I'm imagining a 102pt. buy for stats (straight 18s), and doubling wounds and vigor calculations, all maximum.


Tenro wrote:

haha wow yeah i'd have to be pretty high up there for sure. honestly i'd think we would have to be over level 20 for that, though im not intimately familiar with what all stuff comes with mythic, i have only played in a few games.

it does give me a lot of good ideas for reviving old characters though

how do you feel about monstrous templates? or starting as a typically non-PC race using up most or all of one side of a gestalt?

I'm not necessarily opposed, but we need to work out when you need to use class levels, and what can be covered by templates to make it basically even. What were you thinking about?


Sebecloki wrote:
Tenro wrote:

haha wow yeah i'd have to be pretty high up there for sure. honestly i'd think we would have to be over level 20 for that, though im not intimately familiar with what all stuff comes with mythic, i have only played in a few games.

it does give me a lot of good ideas for reviving old characters though

how do you feel about monstrous templates? or starting as a typically non-PC race using up most or all of one side of a gestalt?

I'm not necessarily opposed, but we need to work out when you need to use class levels, and what can be covered by templates to make it basically even. What were you thinking about?

well for instance in 3.5 i played a character starting at 3rd level and he ended up with the demilich template in the end and was around like ECL 40ish. that is one of the few characters i have made that i think would have a chance of surviving a battle with that thing alongside characters of his similar power.


with ACs like that, we would need to be pretty powerful. I mean hitting an AC 57... 20 BAB, probably +10 to whatever stat i hit with, +5 on weapon, i still need 22 more to close that gap and i can only roll a 20 tops. Sure debuffs can be used and buffs on us, but the higher level the less stuff stacks because the more likely you are to already have a certain kind of bonus. And a lot of debuffs have to hit first, so you would need mega stats or have the right ability that does the right kind of debuff while attacking a different, weaker defense (like a reflex save ability that drops AC, etc.


Tenro wrote:
with ACs like that, we would need to be pretty powerful. I mean hitting an AC 57... 20 BAB, probably +10 to whatever stat i hit with, +5 on weapon, i still need 22 more to close that gap and i can only roll a 20 tops. Sure debuffs can be used and buffs on us, but the higher level the less stuff stacks because the more likely you are to already have a certain kind of bonus. And a lot of debuffs have to hit first, so you would need mega stats or have the right ability that does the right kind of debuff while attacking a different, weaker defense (like a reflex save ability that drops AC, etc.

Look at my post above -- starting out with straight 18 point buy, no min/max on starting stat values, and double max on wounds and vigor -- does that change the equation any? I think you could start by buying a 30 strength if you wanted, for example.

I guess the question is if there is imaginable pathfinder build that could face that kind of stuff. Gestalt 20/20//10/10 mythic tiers gestalted? I mean just tell me what it would be. I'd like to make it with pathfinder rules without having to use 3.0 mythic stuff. I want to be able to use that book of monsters, so I'd like to have an honest conversation about what would be necessary for that.


What about if we did 16/16/8//8 and did a 204 pt. buy for ability scores and double max for wounds and vigor, would that be enough? Let me know.


im not sure what double max on wounds and vigor means. double HP?

and yeah i mean starting with a 30 would be good but then presumably youd be hobbling yourself elsewhere (maybe only having a 10 in a dump stat but that is still hobbling at this level of play)

granted, i am speaking with someone who hasnt been a heavy optimizer since 3.5 days over a decade ago, so there is probably a lot im not accounting for.


there's a system called wounds and vigor from ultimate combat where you have vigor points and wound points. Wound points are double constitution, and vigor is like normal hp. Then you'd double all that -- so it'd be like double hp with another bucket of health that was x4 your constitution.


and im not complaining about any of this, mind you, i do like the ability to fight stuff like that and i would like to be able to survive outside of the cities sometimes, haha.

i don't know any "builds" off the top of my head, i dont usually look up builds prior to making my own characters. it definitely looks like a fun challenge, though.

to keep it at a reasonable level, i would figure something like tristalt, or an extra set of feats, or something like that might be needed to keep the power at almost epic while keeping the level below 20.


The other stuff I'm imagining is that the area between the major cities is filled with random acidic clouds that can just evaporate stuff by rolling over it, as well as lots of enormous gribblies and other bad stuff. The blink dogs are important merchants because they can just teleport and avoid a lot of this stuff. The cities would have the equivalent of magical nuclear weapons to shield themselves. Towns would have to possess at least one super powerful character and/or artifact to survive. They'd be like the caers in Earthdawn.


yeah i would say the extreme point buy (which i dont even know how to calculate past 18s), double wounds and vigor, and probably as high of level and mythic as you would want to go.

on top of that probably either do tristalt, or have a 3rd progression that a PC could use for templates or monster HD/etc, and a second set of feats (or just say feat every level instead of feats every other level like pathfinder standard, and maybe X# bonus feats at 1st.)

this way, PCs could have either an entire new set of additional class abilities and stuff, or a serious amount of base monster levels and powers and templates to go with the classes.


I've been working with the rules that you get feats on each side of the gestalt like a fighter getting 1 feat a level, so that would mean between 2-4 feats every level.

I like the idea for the extra progression for templates. So you could have maybe 16 CR of template abilities as well.

I feel like after a certain point more class abilities don't really add up to anything with the action economy.

Also, we'd be using feat tax rules and horifically overpowered feats.


HOPF would certainly help, and i agree on the fact that a third class isnt going to do much because of action economy (and everyone would have every skill trained pretty much)


Okay, so then my rough proposal would be:

16/16//8/8 gestalt class, gestalt mythic tiers. 16 CR of templates/monster race levels in a separate 'bin'.

204pt. stat buy, no min/max

double max health scores

There are some other details -- check out the dark sun page, but that would be the basic set up.


i'd say probably link all the stuff you plan to use here in the campaign tab with lore stuff


I will -- that will also allow me to update it as questions arise; I do want to establish a basic level range from discussion before I go to all that effort.


Hamza was built using less levels than what Seb is proposing here, but he's got a really solid ability to hit things.

At +34 to hit, and the ability to use maneuvers to hit touch AC, he would be able to connect on a few blows vs some of those monsters.

However every single one can **easily** hit him.

As I am rather familiar with the Immortal series, I know that the monsters therein are meant to be fought by PCs who also use the Ascension rules. Even the lowest level template, the disciple, gets a deflection bonus to their AC = to their Cha and a bonus to natural armor = 1/4 their HD. Which can obviously be a massive boost.

However, they also gain all sorts of divine abilities, both from their portfolios and of their choice based on their level of power.

This is further increased by the artifact system which can, among other things, also grant divine abilities.

Bottom line I am honestly unsure if even the type of crazy powerful PCs you're suggesting here can fight off these monsters. And this is coming from somebody who has a really good grasp of mechanics and optimization that's been playing since 3.0 was released in 2000.


yeah MG i remember that one game we were playing in with a lot of optimization and i was like the weakest one in the group hahaha


Okay, what would be necessary to face PF conversions of epic level monsters like:

https://www.scribd.com/document/393689376/3-5-to-Pathfinder-conversion-Epic -Mythic-Hecatoncheires

Great wyrm C+ 75d12+1,875 (2,362) 75 10 61 62 63 62 +75/+123 +99 +64 +39 +65 60d12 (72) 73


is there an equivalent of the Shipfloaters? for travel other than teleport?


Tenro wrote:
is there an equivalent of the Shipfloaters? for travel other than teleport?

Traveling across the Porphyric Sea is a different business than what I'm describing for the inland territories.

There are vessels equivalent to shipfloaters that are directed by the faceless men and other maritime powers, including the city-state of Thevruminesh, which is populated by minotaurs.


at this level of power im not sure a blink dog is the chassis i should be going on. i'd have to stack a lot of templates when i could just make a Mind Flayer or Elder Brain or some other crazy monster that fits in with the ecology.

then again if people are stacking a lot of templates on a dusk kobold then perhaps i should quit my whining hahaha


That'd be a lot harder to justify fluff wise, certain races won't make any sense for this quest even if they exist in the setting. Mind flayers would basically be stationary, and not interested in the travails of the kobold city.

Also, I really am serious about the story being about the ningishzidda (umbral kobold) civilization, and I want most of the characters to be from that race -- the whole story is about them uncovering their race's past and it only makes sense if most of the players are from this race.


ah what am i talking about i just looked at the ridiculous amount of templates that exist. Surely I can find 16 suitable levels worth.


So, there are three main practical difficulties to overcome that I see, and two story difficulties.

Offense: With Touch AC's and Saves in the 50's, and regular AC / Flat Footed hitting 100+, being able to hit with attacks or saves will be a problem. Buffs and debuffs will definitely be necessary, but at level 16 with 8 mythic tiers there is definitely room to get a high to hit, especially with multiple high stats and ways to add multiple stats to damage with Mythic feats or HOF feats. This one I'm least worried about. Any firearm user would be mostly fine, targeting touch AC.

Defense: Surviving hits, or not getting hit in the first place. Surviving hits is basically out; a full attack routine (which natural attackers get in Unchained Action economy, even though PCs don't). Having AC upwards of 80-160+ is problematic; most high AC granting options are either restricted to a maximum (duelist is limited to level, for example) or are part of templates, not class abilities.

Making it stick: Dealing with immunities / high DR / regeneration. Assuming we can get the offense to hit, the action economy for 4-6 PCs might not allow enough attacks to get through the DR to overcome the regeneration. Ways of preventing regeneration (inquisitor on a critical hit with mythic support, etc) will be valuable.

Finally, there are two story difficulties: Handling any challenge like these will trivialize other challenges. Somewhat similarly, traveling outside of the city sounds like an all-or-nothing scenario too; you either have a way to escape or you don't.

The other difficulty is that pouring sufficient resources into being able to handle these beasts means non-combat abilities will naturally rise to a minimum level as well, which may or may not cause a problem.

TL;DR: For a highly coordinated party with optimal selection/synergy, everything but the Cherubim is probably capable of being handled with the rules as suggested (16/16/8/8). Adding a template up to +3 and a single PRC progression might help and open some other opportunities.

Handling the Cherubim would need to start stacking templates, going up a couple more levels to get capstone/close to capstone abilities, and cherry picking PRCs. If I understand the stat block correctly, that thing would be a challenge for a party of four ECL 70+ characters, and we are looking at a party of maybe.... lets say 16 + 10 + 6 for ECL ~32, as a quick guess, due to action Economy. It might be worth considering going with Unchained Action economy, but with 4 actions instead of 3 and maybe/maybe not limiting the number of complex (2-action, generally spellcasting) actions per turn.

Edit: Scaling feats in Poryphra Wiki might be helpful too.


Well, the Cherubim was an outside of normal circumstances case -- I just wanted to check on the upper conceivable tier, if the other stuff is doable, I think I can draw up the build rules at 16/16//8/8 and 16 CR of templates.

My idea for traveling outside the cities is that either caravans make themselves invisible or otherwise concealed, such as illusions, use teleportation, fly high above the territory, go underground, go super fast, or other strategies. Some require one to be powerful, others just shifty or otherwise clever.

There are also a series of basically stargates that connect some of the major cities.

EDIT: that was another question -- I was thinking about using the Porphyra srd for this instead of PF1e. It's backward compatible, except it does some setting-appropriate stuff like combine the cleric and magic user spell lists. I also like removing alignment and the scaling feats. The question is if everyone is okay with that.


Okay, I posted some character creation rules for discussion, let's continue to talk about it and I can edit it based on the feedback.


Just for reference, I extended the Point buy using the same formula to higher levels. Each marginal point of an attribute increases the marginal cost by the amount of the modifier. A 204 Point buy is basically a 21 point baseline. If using an HOF feat for all 18s in one set of stats, you could conceivably get three 26s in the other set.
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Score Point Extension:

Score Points
18 | 17
19 | 21
20 | 26
21 | 31
22 | 37
23 | 43
24 | 50
25 | 57
26 | 65
27 | 73
28 | 82
29 | 91
30 | 101
31 | 111
32 | 122


Thanks I just added that to the character creation section. I'll edit it some more later, I think I have most everything in there now.


Having gone template-hunting before, I know that there are not that many non-undead ones that hold my interest... I could probably find 16 CR worth, but what about if we make it flexible with levels of Prestige classes (assuming we meet the reqs); ie, we could take 11 CR of templates and 5 levels of a prestige class, etc?

I got the idea from your Dark Suns game trading a mythic tier of gestalt for 2/2 prestige class progression.

EDIT: Are the "Chopping Down the Christmas Tree" feats and ability scores in addition to standard, or superseded by the standard build rules?

SECOND EDIT: Are we running ABP for weapon Bonuses RAW (+5 max, special abilities count against your attunement), or something else? I've seen it run that you can purchase special abilities with WBL and stack up to a max of +10, but there's no WBL either... Suggestions?


I agree that defensively we'll probably struggle a lot, so to that end I have a question:
How are we dealing with multiple sources of miss chance?
If a character casts Mirror Image/Greater Invisibility and Blink, do they have the miss-chances from both of those calculated, and then the monster goes against their AC?


River of Sticks wrote:

Having gone template-hunting before, I know that there are not that many non-undead ones that hold my interest... I could probably find 16 CR worth, but what about if we make it flexible with levels of Prestige classes (assuming we meet the reqs); ie, we could take 11 CR of templates and 5 levels of a prestige class, etc?

I got the idea from your Dark Suns game trading a mythic tier of gestalt for 2/2 prestige class progression.

EDIT: Are the "Chopping Down the Christmas Tree" feats and ability scores in addition to standard, or superseded by the standard build rules?

SECOND EDIT: Are we running ABP for weapon Bonuses RAW (+5 max, special abilities count against your attunement), or something else? I've seen it run that you can purchase special abilities with WBL and stack up to a max of +10, but there's no WBL either... Suggestions?

I agree with the template/prestige class thing. If there really isn't enough, let's cut it down to cr 8. Let's see what other builds people have in mind before we determine everything.

The chopping down and stuff stacks with ABP and everything esle.

We will do it where you can stack special abilities and ABP.

I'll update later when I get some more questions so I can do it all at once.

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