Sebecloki's Untitled Campaign (Inactive)

Game Master Sebecloki

And to confirm: levels that come from HOPF do not grant hit dice, caster level, anything outside of special column, etc.

if you trade template levels for Prestige class levels, it is the same, yes? We are capping HD at 32, BAB at 32, CL at 32, etc?

EDIT: Regarding the dark sun prestige classes, is it possible to assume we have traveled to Athas at some point in our own past? Otherwise a lot of these wont work.

Yes, and this campaign will also involve going to Athas at one point too as part of the first scenario.

While the classes dont have progressions that far you can take something else after 20th. And prestige classes then stack caster level.

This is actually a pretty solid conversion of the epic rules for PF.

I guess that work work if we're limiting ourselves to those classes, but there aren't epic progressions for everything that has been suggested so far, so that would be another issue.

We could also just treat it as normal multiclassing, and you get 16/16//8/8 for the mythic and normal classes, except the overall value goes up to 32. Under those rules, you can't be higher than level 16 in any one class -- I don't want someone playing a level 32 mage, for example.

How about Mythic Tri-stalting, limit at 16, the characters will not get the good stuff that goes with the class at 20th? Or dual mythic but one mythic path will be dual path to make it tri-mythic?

For example:

Class 1 = Fighter, Class 2 = Mage, Class 3 = Rogue

Mythic Champion, Dual Path Archmage/Trickster

That would make mythic tier 16 and AFAIK it only goes to 10

Is there a particular reason you want to not just use the normal gestalt rules Seb?

Ie, things that are exactly the same don't stack(Ie, sneak attack from Rogue and Slayer don't stack, despite being gained at a different rate), we take the best of both classes, stuff if capped at our actual level(16), etc?

What do you guys think about Tri-stalt and normal mythic rules adding triple path feat instead of dual path.

Then Race+Templates?

What do you guys think about Tri-stalt and normal mythic rules adding triple path feat instead of dual path.

Then Race+Templates?

I really don't see any point in tristalt when you have the HOPF and rogue etc. creature templates to get other class abilities. Within a certain measure, having dozens of extra abilities doesn't really matter since there's only so much you can do within the present action economy -- as far as I can see.

Is there a particular reason you want to not just use the normal gestalt rules Seb?

Ie, things that are exactly the same don't stack(Ie, sneak attack from Rogue and Slayer don't stack, despite being gained at a different rate), we take the best of both classes, stuff if capped at our actual level(16), etc?

I'm trying to get a build I could use some of those ascension bestiaries and the hecatoncheiries I linked and you analyzed.

here's and update of the Free City of Tyr map. The upper northeastern quadrant is the center of the old city, and the currently-populated area. The south eastern quarter was decimated by Sacha during the conquest of the Green Age city of Tyre during the Cleansing Wars. Kalak's pyramid levitates over Lake Ba'al Yammim.

Eridug is the dark version of Tyr, so this is also a good model of its overall layout. Unlike Tyr, Eridug was not decimated, and has over a million inhabitants, instead of under 400,000-500,000.

I really don't see any point in tristalt when you have the HOPF and rogue etc. creature templates to get other class abilities. Within a certain measure, having dozens of extra abilities doesn't really matter since there's only so much you can do within the present action economy -- as far as I can see.

I can't either since your home brew rules are unlike other games I have been in or at least at the starting level ... LOL ...

Anderlorn wrote:

What do you guys think about Tri-stalt and normal mythic rules adding triple path feat instead of dual path.

Then Race+Templates?

I really don't see any point in tristalt when you have the HOPF and rogue etc. creature templates to get other class abilities. Within a certain measure, having dozens of extra abilities doesn't really matter since there's only so much you can do within the present action economy -- as far as I can see.

Yeah, if we have HOPF we don't need tristalt. And having "gestalt" mythic paths with a complete progression on both sides should be plenty for every concept I can think of... Someone else might be more imaginative than I, but like you said there is a hard limit to actions.

I don't have a problem going the normal Gestalt rules, either; that would be simpler and there is more support for it. I think we could still manage against those beasties without trying to stack the gestalt.

There's also things (templates, spells, etc) that progress based on HD rather than level; those could vary wildly and be troublesome.

I

Oh crap! You guys already talked about tristalt! Sorry about that! Long day!

Yeah I dont mind the proposed gestalt and it counting as 32 hd

Or level 32 gestalt with no stacking

I'm planning on using spheres which I'm sure most classes are easy to extrapolate epic from as they proceed at regular and defined intervals mostly.

I'm kinda ignoring the build rules, initially. I'm picking out what I want the character to be able to do, conceptually, and finding the feats/class features/etc that mechanically allow that. I know I can cherry pick different things with the Chopping the Christmas tree Knack/Gift feats, HOPF, Mythic, etc. If the conceptual framework ends up requiring more than the final build rules, I'll trim as needed but I'm not too worried about that right now.

Monkeygod wrote:

Is there a particular reason you want to not just use the normal gestalt rules Seb?

Ie, things that are exactly the same don't stack(Ie, sneak attack from Rogue and Slayer don't stack, despite being gained at a different rate), we take the best of both classes, stuff if capped at our actual level(16), etc?

I'm trying to get a build I could use some of those ascension bestiaries and the hecatoncheiries I linked and you analyzed.

I don't think stacking things is the best way to go about accomplishing this. It's unwieldy, but it also throws things way out of whack.

For example: Skill challenges, which I assume will be a big part of this game, will need to greatly boosted or we auto succeed a lot, as having a base +35(just ranks and the +3 for class skills, nothing else) is already a pretty high DC/bonus.

Going back to Hamza, if he had 32 ranks in stealth, his bonus to stealth becomes a +60, and then he auto rolls a 20 thanks to skill god, for an 80, not including any other bonuses he would have if he was made for this game.

An 80 stealth means he'll almost never bee seen, by most anything, beyond the epic threats you wanna throw at us. The quintessence elemental would not, as it only has a +49 to Perception.

Now, unless you want to make all of the challenges we face stupidly epic (which I strongly suggest you do not), the stacking is not the way to go.

One suggestion would be give not only give us a high point buy(which you've already planned on), but also start us off at higher than 10s. Maybe base ability scores start at 18, and then we buy up our stats on a 1 to 1 basis? Ie, to get to 20 we spend 2 points from our point buy?

Also, it might be a good idea if all PCs got one of the lower divine templates from Ascension, the 'PC' companion book to the Immortal Bestiary.

This is the weakest:

The templates scale, basically going up by +1 for all bonuses(or +2 for ability scores) until the Demi Deity level, which jumps from +4/+8 to +6 to all of the above and +12 to ability scores.

As I realize not everybody has access to this book, if Seb decides to go this route, I will gladly assist players in choosing their portfolios and their divine abilities, and giving them the info on what they do.

Finally, I think the prior stated idea of giving us 16 levels of PrCs/Templates is a good one. Levels in a PrC should stack with our 16 gestalt levels, however, I would cap PrCs at 10 levels total. This means you could end up with a 26 BAB bonus, caster level, etc, but it leaves it all up the player.

I believe these suggestions will go along way towards allowing us to face the types of challenges Seb wants to throw at us.

Okay, I'm being won to the position we should stick with the normal gestalt rules and find another work around.

Regarding stats: for point buy, what should we do? 1020 pt. buy? That should start every stat in the 30s I think.

I have that book too with the template.

Also -- let's just clarify that, as far as I'm concerned, we're going to spend at least a month putting these characters together and doing fluff/background stuff.

I also need some time to make maps and find good foes. I may want to do a practice combat to see how the power level is working.

I think your 204 point buy(which we could round to 200), starting us off at a base 18(free mental and physical paragon HOPF basically) for all stats, and then a 1 to 1 point by cost should be good enough. On top of the boosts from everything else(templates, ABP, Christmas tree chop, etc).

If I wanted to make a solid tank Paladin that can also dish out some decent damage, I could have a 66 in Str, Con, Wis and Cha(and 4 points level over for Dex/Int, lol) without boosts from levels, templates, et el.

That gives me a +28 to hit and damage, +448 HP(not converted to wounds/vigor), and +28 to all my saves. +56 to Fort and Will. Oh, these numbers are only based on the stats, and doesn't include class level benefits(ie, class based BAB, saves, etc, lol

That is really damn good.

I think your 204 point buy(which we could round to 200), starting us off at a base 18(free mental and physical paragon HOPF basically) for all stats, and then a 1 to 1 point by cost should be good enough. On top of the boosts from everything else(templates, ABP, Christmas tree chop, etc).

If I wanted to make a solid tank Paladin that can also dish out some decent damage, I could have a 66 in Str, Con, Wis and Cha(and 4 points level over for Dex/Int, lol) without boosts from levels, templates, et el.

That gives me a +28 to hit and damage, +448 HP(not converted to wounds/vigor), and +28 to all my saves. +56 to Fort and Will. Oh, these numbers are only based on the stats, and doesn't include class level benefits(ie, class based BAB, saves, etc, lol

That is really damn good.

I don't understand how what you're proposing would work -- you're buying to add on to the 18? Like you buy another 18 to add to the 18 base?

The 204pts. isn't a random number -- 102 is straight 18s, I'm just suggesting increments of that.

he's saying buy stats on a 1 for 1 basis instead of using arcane math for ability scores. point buy is nice but for some builds you end up with weird numbers left over you cant use when you are using such a high amount. i think 1 for 1 and an 18 base before racials has merit.

we could just do regular gestalt should be fine. any level 16 or up would be good and you could cap each class at 16 if you dont want people having capstones, or cap it at 20 to avoid epic progressions, or just not cap it. and then have X level (say 20) of templates or PrCs on one side that dont contribute past the level cap (so they could shore up weaknesses but not get people 64 HD lol) and cap the PrC levels therein at 10, and then any PrC levels attained from HOPF would be rules-as-written therein.

((1 for 1 meaning that going from 18 to 19 costs 1 point, going from 18 to 30 costs 12 points, etc))

EDIT: level 30 is a nice round level of suitable power. you could do straight 20 levels of a class and fill 1 PrC with regular levels. or do 10 epic levels.

The reason I'm capping at 16 is I have an idea about the power tiers in this setting. You're the next tier down from the rulers. The rulers like the king and queen and high priest etc. are 20/20//10/10 with templates and whatever. I don't want these pcs to have the capstones because that's supposed to be the highest tier -- the rulers etc., that they are not members of. They are the highest level that can go on an adventure. Everyone higher is engaged in keeping civilization running.

I also want to be able to make boss NPCs that are on a higher tier than you.

This world has these specific tiers -- all npcs are one of these level configurations. No one is 7th level.

Low Level

2/2//1/1

4/4//2/2

6/6//3/3

Mid Level

8/8//4/4

10/10//5/5

12/12//6/6

High Level (beginning of 'named level'/stronghold -- You're at the lowest tier of this group)

16/16//8/8

18/18//9/9

20/20//10/10

ok so if you go over 20 with regular gestalt, just cap any given class at 16 so that the PCs wont have capstones? then we would be more widely varied than the leaders but not as singularly focused in power as they are. plus two mythic tiers down is of course a big equalizer.

I like 16/16 regular gestalt with 8/8 mythic, and the 16 CR of templates or PrCs, with PrCs stacking above the 16 HD total. Inflating ability scores directly via 1:1 point buy is pretty effective for bringing numbers up. I’m not familiar with the “Disciple” template at all. Sounds interesting.

If a test run showed that we can’t manage with that we could expand then. I had a thought and then remembered we can pick the action economy every turn, allowing non-natural attack users to still full attack.

I like 16/16 regular gestalt with 8/8 mythic, and the 16 CR of templates or PrCs, with PrCs stacking above the 16 HD total. Inflating ability scores directly via 1:1 point buy is pretty effective for bringing numbers up. I’m not familiar with the “Disciple” template at all. Sounds interesting.

If a test run showed that we can’t manage with that we could expand then. I had a thought and then remembered we can pick the action economy every turn, allowing non-natural attack users to still full attack.

I like this set up -- I want something predictable like I sketched out above where I know what all the NPCS basically have for stats and ability scores.

I think it would be helpful to test out a couple of monsters so I have an idea if I need 5-6 great wyrms or 1 of something else etc. I don't think the numbers will be an issue as long as we intentionally construct a coherent mechanical ecosystem where we have a sense of what the numbers should be for everything.

Seb, what level of the divine template should we go with, assuming you decide to use them?

If we stick with the minimum HD/levels, we could go with Hero Deity, which is +3 to stats and +6 to all ability scores.

Effective hero deities include: Balors, Planetars, Pit Fiends and Titans.

Seb, what level of the divine template should we go with, assuming you decide to use them?

If we stick with the minimum HD/levels, we could go with Hero Deity, which is +3 to stats and +6 to all ability scores.

Effective hero deities include: Balors, Planetars, Pit Fiends and Titans.

That sounds like I like it. Especially if it is from a book that is a companion to the book the big bosses were coming from. And we should be Balor power.

Seb, what level of the divine template should we go with, assuming you decide to use them?

If we stick with the minimum HD/levels, we could go with Hero Deity, which is +3 to stats and +6 to all ability scores.

Effective hero deities include: Balors, Planetars, Pit Fiends and Titans.

Where are you getting the minimum HD/levels from for suggesting that template over Disciple?

Also, I'm trying to make a map of the Lands of the Well -- I need the coastline of the Tablelands and the islands. Does anyone have a way to strip out just the coastline and islands from a pdf of the Dark Sun map? I tried magic select in photoshop 3d but that wasn't doing it.

Each template in Ascension has minimum HD/Level requirement. Disciple is 5, Prophet is 10, Hero is 15, and Quasi Deity(or Proxy) is 20. After that it jumps to 30+ for Demi-Deities and above.

While I haven't played much with the Ascension rules, I have built several PCs with them, so I am rather familiar with them.

Each template in Ascension has minimum HD/Level requirement. Disciple is 5, Prophet is 10, Hero is 15, and Quasi Deity(or Proxy) is 20. After that it jumps to 30+ for Demi-Deities and above.

While I haven't played much with the Ascension rules, I have built several PCs with them, so I am rather familiar with them.

So Hero is the maximum we'd qualify for -- how big is the power jump between hero deity and disciple. If we use disciple, what kinds of monsters can we face vs. hero deity.

Figures from mythology who would be considered disciples include:
Enkidu (from Mesopotamian mythology); Minions of Set (from Egyptian
mythology) and Tiera; Lemminkainen's shield-man (from Finnish
mythology).

As for stuff from Pathfinder: outsiders with between 6-10 dice hit dice effectively have the disciple template.

For Prophets(the tier above Disciple): Figures from mythology who would be considered prophets include: Skirnir, Frey's shield-man and the Valkyrie (both from Norse Mythology); the Water Dwarf, Ahto's shield-man (from Finnish mythology). Moses,(from the Bible) would also be considered a prophet.

Pathfinder: outsiders with between 11-15 Hit Dice to effectively
have the prophet template.

And Hero Deities: Figures from mythology who would be considered hero-deities include: Hunapu and Xbalanque (from Central American mythology),
Raiko (from Japanese mythology); the Son of Pohjola (from Finnish
mythology) and Stoneribs (from North American mythology). Typically,
the most renowned once-mortal heroes of a given mythos will be herodeities. Heracles from Greek mythology is also a Hero Deity.

*****************************

The biggest difference in actual power comes from portfolios and divine abilities.

Lets take a character with the Darkness domain:

A Disciple gains the following.

Use any darkness domain spell as spell-like ability, perfect vision in darkness(even magical darkness), a competence penalty (equal to your divine rank) on all die rolls while within a sunlit environment and you suffer 50% extra damage from positive energy attacks and spells.

A Hero Deity has all of the above plus:

Immunity to negative energy attacks and spells and a competence bonus (equal to your divine rank) on attack rolls, damage rolls and armor class while shrouded in darkness.

This is in addition to 3 divine abilities of the Hero Deity's choice.

Some of these include being able to deal maximum damage with your unarmed strikes, polymorph at will, being always hasted, elemental immunity/healing and various 'effect' attacks(like a vampiric, ability drain, force or element).

...scanning the discussion in the recruitment thread leads me to this conclusion: the greater the power, the greater the need for players – with the GM's help and guidance – to collaborate to create characters that are unique and distinctive. With these rules, it is possible to build amazing and surprising characters, but if they're redundant, or if one character eclipses all others, the whole thing falls apart...?

Note that, while my comment could point to bench pressing, my point is more about concepts, domains, and relationships. Likely, all these characters would know each other! What are their ties? Why do they work together? Do they get along? And if not, why do they still agree to collaborate?

One final question: number of players? IMHO, less is more, but that's just me!

I'd definitely be taking travel domain for my concept, and if I get more domains I'd be looking at gravity/trade or time or mind/knowledge in descending order

Okay, so I need to see what these portfolios do, but my character will probably go for something along the lines of trickery, trade, and...Not shadows. I feel shadows, in this world, should be kind of sacred. For upstanding individuals. Given the world we live in...Light? Would light be considered less-than-reputable?

Some other stuff for y'all, in case you want to be able to better work how our characters would interact, my character's not necessarily supposed to be trusted, but he's generally speaking cordial. He's also arrogant, but among the party, given everyone's relative position, he'll likely consider himself among equals.
He doesn't consider for a moment the fact that, once upon a time, everyone around him considered him inferior. He doesn't consider that he's basically continuing a cycle of stepping upon the little folks. He simply sees himself as above those who do not share his level of power.
He also has a habit of looking out for a profit--Not necessarily monetary. Profit of power, influence..If he thinks what he's spending is cheap compared to the benefit he's gaining, he'll spend it with the knowledge that he can cash it in later.

Thinking over my characters more, I think I'll shy away from the Apostle Kyton priest concept and focus more on the investigator and warrior characters.

The investigator will be a Umbral Kobold have levels in that class and likely the legendary rogue from Legendary Games. He will be very heavily skill focused.

Role in the society is probably going to be a free lance assassin/problem solver. If this was set in Golarion, he would likely be a follower of Norgorber's aspects as of both the Reaper of Reputations and Blackfingers. He's not much of an actual thief, though he does have those capabilities.

His alignment will probably be neutral evil, as he is a very much a 'ends justify the means, do whatever it takes to get the job done' type.

The warrior will be a Moroi, and unsure what classes he'll take just yet. I'm not entirely sure what exact role he'll have in their society, as he's an outsider.

He'll likely be lawful neutral however.

what my umbral kobold is will depend on what gaps the party has.

my blink dog will be a traveler and a merchant as is normal for their kind. he will be a wise sort, permanently and drastically altered by the things he has encountered in his travels but still very much sound of mind. probably going to to be a dimensional dervish sort of combat character, but (hopefully) a capable switch-hitter for when melee proves too dangerous. teleportation and possibly divination will be his main contributions to our utility.

as for looks, i have an image in my head of something like a mix between sleipnir, a crystal dragon, a barghest, a transformer, and a dire black wolf

I also gave some consideration to the extra +16 levels of PrC/templates.

I think we should also be able to take normal classes, but again, capped at 10 and they can not be levels in your either of gestalt classes.

This way, if somebody is planning on playing a PC that needs full BAB, but there's no PrC that fits their concept, they could take fighter/ranger/paladin/etc levels, and still get the +26 to hit.

there's also the HOPF that just gives you max BAB.

Am I right in assuming that the benchmark for saves should be about 60?

Let's just get a roundup of characters proposed --

First Apprentice to the Archmage
Chief Assistant to the Companion's Envoy to the Lands of the Well (this is the blink dog)
The First Sword of the King's Champion.
The Queen's favorite Spy-Assassin
The Foremost 'Lone-Wolf'/Free Investigator

Can I dot interest for the Archer Initiate of the Royal Master Sniper?

Edit: Looks like healing is needed more than a range so I'll change to First Royal Physician's Assistant of the Royal Surgeon. I am thinking of using Psionic Vitalist and SoP Incanter (Life) Sphere as the Primary Sphere.

Can I dot interest for the Archer Initiate of the Royal Master Sniper?

Edit: Looks like healing is needed more than a range so I'll change to First Royal Physician's Assistant of the Royal Surgeon. I am thinking of using Psionic Vitalist and SoP Incanter (Life) Sphere as the Primary Sphere.

Good Combo. Have you looked at the Soul Weaver in terms of Life Sphere? Theyre pretty good at healing.

I haven't yet but I will and thanks for the suggestion.

Edit The Soulweaver is very cool! Ok, Vitalist/Soulweaver and it fits the Darksun type of environment quite well.

Just a side note: Fast Healing 2-5 is only a feat away for everyone, so I’m not sure how much HP / Vigor healing is needed. Status effects on the other hand are important, and much more varied.

If I could throw something out there, if you can add to your methods of healing a source of true regeneration, you've got yourself a powerful mid-combat defensive tool.

updating my list of template ideas

+2 Alacritous *****
+2 shadow-traced creature *****
+3 quickling creature *****
+1 Force Creature ****
+3 timebreaker creature *****
+6 Instrument of the Gods **** (if allowed, not sure you want to allow it)
+2 Savant Creature ****

got 19 levels there so i'll have to pare down if IotG is allowed or we are taking the Ascension stuff. if IotG isnt allowed then i can choose from below or take some PrC levels

+2 Dark tapestry (has Regen but...) ***
+2 Diamond *** (good but not sure it plays well with abilities)

+3 Half-fiend (Invidiak) ??
+2 half-umbral dragon
+1 psychic creature (telepath)

My suggestion for the divine template is for it be a free one(not costing the PCs anything) so as to allow us a better shot at handling the type of foes Seb wants to throw at us.

so to consolidate the idea so far....?

200 ability points, spent 1 for 1 on a base of all 18s
16/16 gestalt as normal but with bonus feats per DM
8/8 mythic gestalt as normal with bonus feats per DM
up to 16 HOPF feats which cost you from feat slots (not free)
16 levels of templates and/or prestige class levels ***
1 free ascension template chosen by DM based on desired power level

***not sure if these will add HD, what the cap will be

plus other DM stuff like feat tax, chopping the tree, etc.

am i missing anything??