Sebecloki's Untitled Campaign

Game Master Sebecloki


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Are we sure with the limitation on stacking that will be sufficient to fight the monsters I posted? They're going to come with other powerful minions and such too.


Sebecloki wrote:
Are we sure with the limitation on stacking that will be sufficient to fight the monsters I posted? They're going to come with other powerful minions and such too.

This was my main reason for suggesting the 10 levels from the bonus 16 stack with our gestalt in terms of BAB, saves, HP, etc.

However, then I got to thinking, 'how would that affect our level based benefits?' which is why I suggested we could be virtual level 20 with the first four bonus levels granting their full benefits, even 4 more HOPF.

As these levels can't be in our gestalt classes, we won't be getting capstones, the king & queen(along with the other leaders) will still have an 'advantage' over us.

That said, if we stop level based benefits at 16, and apply the 10 levels normally otherwise, I think we might be alright.


Seb, are you okay with using the downtime rules? If so, there's a PrC I might consider taking that interacts with them.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Well if the monsters are that strong, why don't we just take level 19 or 20?

Also there is Hof weapon finesse...


Monkeygod wrote:
Seb, are you okay with using the downtime rules? If so, there's a PrC I might consider taking that interacts with them.

That's fine


Hayato Ken wrote:

Well if the monsters are that strong, why don't we just take level 19 or 20?

Also there is Hof weapon finesse...

Because I have a specific mechanical ecosystem in mind that i detailed above


Monkeygod wrote:
Sebecloki wrote:
Are we sure with the limitation on stacking that will be sufficient to fight the monsters I posted? They're going to come with other powerful minions and such too.

This was my main reason for suggesting the 10 levels from the bonus 16 stack with our gestalt in terms of BAB, saves, HP, etc.

However, then I got to thinking, 'how would that affect our level based benefits?' which is why I suggested we could be virtual level 20 with the first four bonus levels granting their full benefits, even 4 more HOPF.

As these levels can't be in our gestalt classes, we won't be getting capstones, the king & queen(along with the other leaders) will still have an 'advantage' over us.

That said, if we stop level based benefits at 16, and apply the 10 levels normally otherwise, I think we might be alright.

Seb, thought on these suggestions??


Monkeygod wrote:
Monkeygod wrote:
Sebecloki wrote:
Are we sure with the limitation on stacking that will be sufficient to fight the monsters I posted? They're going to come with other powerful minions and such too.

This was my main reason for suggesting the 10 levels from the bonus 16 stack with our gestalt in terms of BAB, saves, HP, etc.

However, then I got to thinking, 'how would that affect our level based benefits?' which is why I suggested we could be virtual level 20 with the first four bonus levels granting their full benefits, even 4 more HOPF.

As these levels can't be in our gestalt classes, we won't be getting capstones, the king & queen(along with the other leaders) will still have an 'advantage' over us.

That said, if we stop level based benefits at 16, and apply the 10 levels normally otherwise, I think we might be alright.

Seb, thought on these suggestions??

I'm not sure yet. One huge reservation I have is how this maps on to the tiers I defined above. There should be 10 tiers of npcs starting at 2/2//1/1 and stopping at 20/20//10/10. There could be a parallel progression of template and prc levels that would be 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12, 14 etc. Your additional rules wouldn't map onto that easily. I'd want to see how they interact with what I outlined beginning with 2/2//1/1 and going up to 20/20//10/10.


Right now, we are 16/16/10/10, but we have 16 free levels that can be used for a PrC/base class(that isn't one of our gestalt classes) and/or templates.

We have a few options how to decide how this all works:

1) The PrC/base class only adds their class features(the special section. Ie, sneak attack, bloodlines, bonus feats, rage, etc) and do not improve HD, BAB, Saves, etc.

Assuming we go this route, I'm unsure we'll be able to face the foes you wanna throw at us.

2) The PrC/base class adds everything from their levels, however we stop gaining level based benefits at 16(more feats, ability score increases, potential for more HOPF, etc).

With this option, we should be able to fight those monsters.

3) The PrC/Base class adds *everything*, including level based benefits, but stops at 20. We still gain an extra 6 levels worth of BAB, saves, skills, etc.

This is the option I feel most comfortable as able to handle your threats.

Between the extra feats, the few more levels of boosts from ABP and Christmas Chop, and possibly four more HOPFs, I think we should be fine.

None of these options interfere with the NPC leaders still being 20/20/10/10. We end up being 16/16/8/8 + 'something', but we don't gain the capstone of our classes and we aren't gestalt with those bonus levels.

Also, there's nothing stopping you from giving the NPC leaders the +16(or more) free levels, making them that much more powerful than us.


Monkeygod wrote:

Right now, we are 16/16/10/10, but we have 16 free levels that can be used for a PrC/base class(that isn't one of our gestalt classes) and/or templates.

We have a few options how to decide how this all works:

1) The PrC/base class only adds their class features(the special section. Ie, sneak attack, bloodlines, bonus feats, rage, etc) and do not improve HD, BAB, Saves, etc.

Assuming we go this route, I'm unsure we'll be able to face the foes you wanna throw at us.

2) The PrC/base class adds everything from their levels, however we stop gaining level based benefits at 16(more feats, ability score increases, potential for more HOPF, etc).

With this option, we should be able to fight those monsters.

3) The PrC/Base class adds *everything*, including level based benefits, but stops at 20. We still gain an extra 6 levels worth of BAB, saves, skills, etc.

This is the option I feel most comfortable as able to handle your threats.

Between the extra feats, the few more levels of boosts from ABP and Christmas Chop, and possibly four more HOPFs, I think we should be fine.

None of these options interfere with the NPC leaders still being 20/20/10/10. We end up being 16/16/8/8 + 'something', but we don't gain the capstone of our classes and we aren't gestalt with those bonus levels.

Also, there's nothing stopping you from giving the NPC leaders the +16(or more) free levels, making them that much more powerful than us.

You're still not quite understanding my issue. I want all npcs and pcs to divide into consistent tiers. These stipulations about what stacks have to be divisible into 10 evenly progressing tiers. My issue is not that something more powerful exists but that these are ad hoc qualifications for the 16/16//8/8 tier. I want you to expand your rules to apply to an extra bin of prc and templates that progresses 2 6 8 9 10 12 14 16 18 20 alongside the 2/2//1/1 to 20/20//10/10 tiers

0


Can't you/we just use the progression you just listed? 2 6 8 9 10 12 14 16 18 20? Is there something wrong with that?

Also, this seems to fall more in the realm of the GM's side of things, as none of this really applies to us PCs. We are 16/16/8/8 and have 16 bonus levels, because that's what you, the GM, gave us.

If you need NPCs that are 2/2/1/1 and 2 bonus levels, that's your domain.

What I'm trying to figure is what do our 16 extra levels actually get us, so players can start fully working on characters. What you want regarding your tiers for NPCs has no bearing on our character creation.


But it does make a difference for planning npcs with class levels. I'd need to have consistent rules about how their additional bin of templates and prcs would stack. I'm inclined to veto any additional stipulations on stacking unless it can be fit into a consistent system like I've outlined. I don't want to be guessing at numbers and stacking for npcs. I want consistent rules for all these tiers so I don't have to guestimate stuff.


We have 16 gestalt levels and 16 bonus levels.

The formula should just follow that.

If an NPC has 2 gestalt levels, it gets 2 bonus levels. If it has 9 it gets 9 bonus levels. If it has 20 it gets 20 bonus levels.

That seems to be the most simplistic method that makes the most sense to me.


Whatever stipulations on stacking from our bonus levels we decide upon should also apply to NPCs as well.


Monkeygod wrote:

Right now, we are 16/16/10/10, but we have 16 free levels that can be used for a PrC/base class(that isn't one of our gestalt classes) and/or templates.

We have a few options how to decide how this all works:

1) The PrC/base class only adds their class features(the special section. Ie, sneak attack, bloodlines, bonus feats, rage, etc) and do not improve HD, BAB, Saves, etc.

Assuming we go this route, I'm unsure we'll be able to face the foes you wanna throw at us.

2) The PrC/base class adds everything from their levels, however we stop gaining level based benefits at 16(more feats, ability score increases, potential for more HOPF, etc).

With this option, we should be able to fight those monsters.

3) The PrC/Base class adds *everything*, including level based benefits, but stops at 20. We still gain an extra 6 levels worth of BAB, saves, skills, etc.

This is the option I feel most comfortable as able to handle your threats.

Between the extra feats, the few more levels of boosts from ABP and Christmas Chop, and possibly four more HOPFs, I think we should be fine.

None of these options interfere with the NPC leaders still being 20/20/10/10. We end up being 16/16/8/8 + 'something', but we don't gain the capstone of our classes and we aren't gestalt with those bonus levels.

Also, there's nothing stopping you from giving the NPC leaders the +16(or more) free levels, making them that much more powerful than us.

I think 1 or 2 would be sufficient. 3 gets crazy in terms of how it interacts with everything else.

2 is at least contained; you get only the extra bits added on top last, and they don't give anything else (ABP, HD based abilities, etc).

My preference is 1; it's the simplest. Out of HD, BAB, Saves, and Skills, Saves and Skills are pure numbers; increase attributes, increase those results. BAB can be handled with Offensive Combat Training (HOF) and Mythic (HOF), allowing up to a BAB of 24-26.

HD is more complicated. Purely for HP, more CON/CHA/Etc will get you there. As will feats like Poryphra's Toughness, Akashic Essence of the Immortal, Psionics Psionic Body, etc. Actual HD based abilities (Half level + attribute DCs, pick an ability every 4 HD, etc) are the only things there isn't really an advancement for, and I do not think there should be advancement on those.

If we went with #1, I would suggest house-ruling a corollary HOF called Offensive Magic Training or something like that, affecting CL instead of BAB. I think that would be sufficient.

Just as an aside, without even trying and taking only four feats, one of them Mythic HOF Weapon Finesse, I could make my character get STR+DEX+INT to attack and damage, with +WIS when flanking and +1/2 INT as an insight bonus from Harbinger levels. Assuming even stat point buy up, thats a +23 or so in every ability, for +80 to 103ish, before BAB and other buffs. Offensive Combat Training could easily add another 22-24 to that.

Edit: Actually, Save DCs have Ability Focus and the Divine abilities allowing you to add another mental attribute to DCs... Making it possible for a first level spell to have a Save DC of 10 + 1 + 23 + 23 + 4-6 = 73 or so with some investment.


So, been punting around two alternate ideas.

A hobgoblin oracle who has been passed down the sacred task of maintaining 'divine' ancient technology. It would be a starship that's still..."functional", in that it's still capable of moving and the internals are intact enough that it's space-worthy.

In reality, however, the starship is only made of space-age materials on the exterior, which is religiously maintained to exacting standards. The internals are 80% replaced with various forms of stone-shaped and fabricated Magimorphic stones as the structure and spirit-possessed components for complex machinery.
While the design for the ship largely remains the same, and many of its' basic functions have been retained, there's no actual technology at play anymore.
Turbines move, but they move via spirits. Shadowstuff is recombined into alchemist fire, which is moved by the turbines to generate thrust.
Data storage is no longer in the form of electronics, but is instead Photosensitive stone in constant contact with Intelligent Swords, which in and of themselves have their memories constantly recorded into memory crystals.
Life support is handled by more shadowstuff, now recombined into partially-real plantlife, capable of producing very-real oxygen, albeit with significantly less efficiency.

Basically just constant thought exercises like that, with my spell selection decided entirely by 'yeah, but what function does this serve for maintaining their temple?'

And then my other was a Vampire master of the blade, who has perfected it to such a degree that he is capable of cutting through time and space.
He was going to have levels in cool classes like Warpmaster and Time Thief and basically just be Go-Fast Guy, with abilities that scale off of how Fast he Goes.


how about this? the last column after the ". . ." would be the number of full HD with all attendant abilities that the PC/NPC could pull from their third progression (instead of templates) or from HOPF Prestigious/Gestalt feats. anything higher than that number would provide class abilities (special column only).

2 2 1 1 . . . +1
4 4 2 2 . . . +1
6 6 3 3 . . . +2
8 8 4 4 . . . +2
10 10 5 5 . . +3
12 12 6 6 . . +3
14 14 7 7 . . +4
16 16 8 8 . . +4
18 18 9 9 . . +5
20 20 10 10 . +5

this progresses evenly.

this does not provide capstones to PCs of level 16.

this evenly divides by 10 for the tiers the GM wants.

with this, the max HD/BAB/Base CL any one PC would have would be 23 (18+5) and a King or Queen would be capped at 25 (20+5) and then if things progress further than that you can easily extrapolate the pattern.

if you wanted to juice up the power, and make level ups more significant, you could use this progression instead:

2 2 1 1 . . . +1
4 4 2 2 . . . +2
6 6 3 3 . . . +3
8 8 4 4 . . . +4
10 10 5 5 . . +5
12 12 6 6 . . +6
14 14 7 7 . . +7
16 16 8 8 . . +8
18 18 9 9 . . +9
20 20 10 10 . +10

this would have the PC's starting cap at 27 HD and the King/Queen starting cap at 30.


Gotten a bit done as far as ideas/builds for my two PCs:

Umbral Kobold spymaster/assassin: Legendary Rogue/Investigator/Shadow Savant Vigilante. Very possibly taking levels in the Legendary Assassin PrC. Templates will be Dread Lord(non undead, like the Domain Lords from Ravenloft), Half-Shadow Demon and Inveigler. Maybe also a Psychic template.

Role will be super skill monkey, with a focus in bluff and diplomacy. He'll also excel at gathering information, having several abilities for that.

He'll also be a consummate assassin, even if I don't take levels in the PrC(unlikely). The Legendary Rogue rework makes them much better at combat than even the UnRogue.

Moroi 'Oblivion Knight': Magus/Warpriest/Legendary Fighter. Also taking levels in the Noble Blood racial class. Templates will be Death Knight and Graveknight for sure.

Role will be a combat machine. The 'oblivion knight' moniker was inspired by and stolen from the monster of the same name in Diablo II. Also has a mount so will be focused some on mounted combat.

Out of fighting, and in society, I'm thinking he'll have a role somewhat similar to Destro from GI JOE. Tactician, strategist, war planner. His family supplies weapons and mercenaries.

Also probably pull from Doctor Doom for inspiration.


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Tenro wrote:

how about this? the last column after the ". . ." would be the number of full HD with all attendant abilities that the PC/NPC could pull from their third progression (instead of templates) or from HOPF Prestigious/Gestalt feats. anything higher than that number would provide class abilities (special column only).

2 2 1 1 . . . +1
4 4 2 2 . . . +1
6 6 3 3 . . . +2
8 8 4 4 . . . +2
10 10 5 5 . . +3
12 12 6 6 . . +3
14 14 7 7 . . +4
16 16 8 8 . . +4
18 18 9 9 . . +5
20 20 10 10 . +5

this progresses evenly.

this does not provide capstones to PCs of level 16.

this evenly divides by 10 for the tiers the GM wants.

with this, the max HD/BAB/Base CL any one PC would have would be 23 (18+5) and a King or Queen would be capped at 25 (20+5) and then if things progress further than that you can easily extrapolate the pattern.

if you wanted to juice up the power, and make level ups more significant, you could use this progression instead:

2 2 1 1 . . . +1
4 4 2 2 . . . +2
6 6 3 3 . . . +3
8 8 4 4 . . . +4
10 10 5 5 . . +5
12 12 6 6 . . +6
14 14 7 7 . . +7
16 16 8 8 . . +8
18 18 9 9 . . +9
20 20 10 10 . +10

this would have the PC's starting cap at 27 HD and the King/Queen starting cap at 30.

This is exactly what I wanted to see. Let's do the second of those


woops just realized i had us at 18 not 16. so the starting for a PC would be

16/16 gestalt
8/8 mythic
16 template levels

template levels or HOPF Gestalt/Prestigious feats can provide a cap of 8 real HD. CL (barring certain items/feats/etc that increase it) would be capped at 24 (16 from base levels and 8 from Prestige Class Levels).

the king/queen cap is still at 30, so they are still pretty well more powerful than us


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I think i don't understand that at all and it makes no sense to me.
Seems weird and totally random.
Why 8 levels of PrC?
What about people who take no PrC?
And which items, feats etc. would increase that?

We already have a bonus from christmas tree and stuff like hof weapon finesse. If that's not enough, i don't know.
I'm looking at +63 attack bonus right now without any buffs.

I mean, we could just be level 20 and add something else untill level 24 then?


to address your points in order:

I think i don't understand that at all and it makes no sense to me.
can't help you there, could you elaborate on what doesnt make sense to you?

Seems weird and totally random.
i assure you that it follows a pattern

Why 8 levels of PrC?
someone introduced the idea of partial PrC progression and it stuck, was discussed, and here we are

What about people who take no PrC?
they would be at a disadvantage, but a competent builder could probably make up elsewhere for any shortcomings

And which items, feats etc. would increase that?
im not really a good optimizer, MG could speak more on this point, but like Prayer Beads give some CL, there are feats that give bonuses to CL for beating SR or for a certain school, etc. Traits sometimes give a +1 to fire spells etc.

We already have a bonus from christmas tree and stuff like hof weapon finesse. If that's not enough, i don't know.
i cant speak on this i havent started to build my character.

I'm looking at +63 attack bonus right now without any buffs.
some monsters discussed had AC over 100.

I mean, we could just be level 20 and add something else untill level 24 then?
GM doesnt want us doing that because we arent supposed to have class capstones at this juncture in the story and he has delineated the tiers at which he wants each class of being. Under the structure i proposed, no level of any one class can be over 16.


so this way for instance you could have gestalt fighter 16/wizard 16, gestalt mythic champion 8/archmage 8. then you could have 16 levels of templates or take some prestige class in there, let's say Arcane Archer for s&%#s and giggles. well Arcane Archer if you took 10 levels (and 6 levels of templates) you would get only 8 HD of it. For that class, it provides CL boost at all levels except 1, 5, and 9. So you would have the first 8 full levels of it, getting you 6 CL. The last two levels would give you things from the "Special" column only. If you took the HOPF gestalt feat and got some levels of Rogue, and the HOPF prestigious feat and got some levels of Assassin, none of those would stack anything but you would get everything in the "Special" column.


for instance, my Blink Dog will probably be

Sage 16/Conscript 16
Mythic Genius 8/Stranger 8
probably have HOPF Prestigious with one or two of the dark sun classes for flavor, maybe a tech guide class as he is tech-based (Think Cable but a Blink Dog, a little bit of Blink from the New Mutants as well).
Probably going to have HOPF Gestalt feat for some Rogue action as well.
Probably HOPF prestigious Archwizard as well, and will be using that as my 8 level added progression for CL purposes.

basically going to be a skirmisher/striker with some sneak attack, chi and occasional Vital Strike but usually just relying on the Dimensional line of feats from PF to survive.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Well allright.

I changed my plan a bit.
Gonna build around enchanting courtesan.
Base will be bard, mesmerist, sorcerer and monk.
Enchantment, illusion and intrigue focus with some blasting if possible and able to beat the s@%& out of you.

Obviously champion and archmage.


I...Guess I shouldn't complain about an 8 HD power-up.

To be clear: Are the Gestalt/Prestigeous classes keying off of 16 or 24? Because the setting we're trying to build necessitates that it be the 16. HOP Gestalt is 1/2 HD, and Mythic Gestalt would add 8 to that which means you'd get a capstone.


Tyren Lourofesh wrote:

I...Guess I shouldn't complain about an 8 HD power-up.

To be clear: Are the Gestalt/Prestigeous classes keying off of 16 or 24? Because the setting we're trying to build necessitates that it be the 16. HOP Gestalt is 1/2 HD, and Mythic Gestalt would add 8 to that which means you'd get a capstone.

mythic doesnt add HD, does it? i thought it just gave some bonus HP. the Gestalt/Prestigious should key off of 16 otherwise youd end up in some kind of upward spiral.


HOPF Gestalt would give 8 levels in base classes.

HOPF Prestigious would give 5 levels in a prestige class.

BUT you could take up to 8 levels in a prestige class by using some levels from your 16 levels of templates. That cannot, RAW, interact with Prestigious in any way because of how that feat is written.

no one would be able to have any capstone unless they took a prestige class with 8 or less levels and no one would have any base class capstone unless it comes at 16th level.


Tyren is asking if the extra HD from the bonus 8 add to our 16 for the purposes of the mythic gestalt HOPF, which adds your mythic tier(8) to the levels you get from normal gestalt(8).

But if the HD from the bonus 8 added to our 16, we would be 24HD, meaning gestalt would be 12 and then mythic gestalt would add 8 to that, giving us 20 levels.

My suggestion is gestalt, prestigious, magic-user, and their mythic versions are based on our gestalt levels only.


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^ Monkeygod has it, and I agree with the suggestion.


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Monkeygod wrote:


My suggestion is gestalt, prestigious, magic-user, and their mythic versions are based on our gestalt levels only.

agreed and that is what i am assuming will be the case

also i didnt know they had mythic versions. is there a mythic HOPF book out?


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I changed my mind about the immortals template. You can have hero deity


Can someone do another round up of the current build rules for me and I'll edit the campaign info page?


Also we can make several varieties of the ningishzidda to fit different character types. On top of adding all the shadow racial traits and the alternative traits I listed to turn them into a rp22 race, I was imagining a couple of subraces. One group would have wings. Another would be large muscled warriors that are 2-3 times taller than their fellows. Another would be half-shadows. Another would be some kind of were creature that can assume a large reptilian form.


Tyren Lourofesh wrote:

So, been punting around two alternate ideas.

A hobgoblin oracle who has been passed down the sacred task of maintaining 'divine' ancient technology. It would be a starship that's still..."functional", in that it's still capable of moving and the internals are intact enough that it's space-worthy.

In reality, however, the starship is only made of space-age materials on the exterior, which is religiously maintained to exacting standards. The internals are 80% replaced with various forms of stone-shaped and fabricated Magimorphic stones as the structure and spirit-possessed components for complex machinery.
While the design for the ship largely remains the same, and many of its' basic functions have been retained, there's no actual technology at play anymore.
Turbines move, but they move via spirits. Shadowstuff is recombined into alchemist fire, which is moved by the turbines to generate thrust.
Data storage is no longer in the form of electronics, but is instead Photosensitive stone in constant contact with Intelligent Swords, which in and of themselves have their memories constantly recorded into memory crystals.
Life support is handled by more shadowstuff, now recombined into partially-real plantlife, capable of producing very-real oxygen, albeit with significantly less efficiency.

Basically just constant thought exercises like that, with my spell selection decided entirely by 'yeah, but what function does this serve for maintaining their temple?'

And then my other was a Vampire master of the blade, who has perfected it to such a degree that he is capable of cutting through time and space.
He was going to have levels in cool classes like Warpmaster and Time Thief and basically just be Go-Fast Guy, with abilities that scale off of how Fast he Goes.

If you go this direction I have in mind to create a hobgoblin city located in the same area as eldaaritch on athas.


Sebecloki wrote:
Another would be half-shadows. Another would be some kind of were creature that can assume a large reptilian form.

hmmm.... *strokes beard*


Oh and a very small number of albinos


There's also going to be a difference between umbral shadow kobolds who are the majority and pitch black night kobolds who will be more numerous than the albinos but still only like 5 to 10 percent of the population.


Sebecloki wrote:
Tyren Lourofesh wrote:

So, been punting around two alternate ideas.

A hobgoblin oracle who has been passed down the sacred task of maintaining 'divine' ancient technology. It would be a starship that's still..."functional", in that it's still capable of moving and the internals are intact enough that it's space-worthy.

In reality, however, the starship is only made of space-age materials on the exterior, which is religiously maintained to exacting standards. The internals are 80% replaced with various forms of stone-shaped and fabricated Magimorphic stones as the structure and spirit-possessed components for complex machinery.
While the design for the ship largely remains the same, and many of its' basic functions have been retained, there's no actual technology at play anymore.
Turbines move, but they move via spirits. Shadowstuff is recombined into alchemist fire, which is moved by the turbines to generate thrust.
Data storage is no longer in the form of electronics, but is instead Photosensitive stone in constant contact with Intelligent Swords, which in and of themselves have their memories constantly recorded into memory crystals.
Life support is handled by more shadowstuff, now recombined into partially-real plantlife, capable of producing very-real oxygen, albeit with significantly less efficiency.

Basically just constant thought exercises like that, with my spell selection decided entirely by 'yeah, but what function does this serve for maintaining their temple?'

And then my other was a Vampire master of the blade, who has perfected it to such a degree that he is capable of cutting through time and space.
He was going to have levels in cool classes like Warpmaster and Time Thief and basically just be Go-Fast Guy, with abilities that scale off of how Fast he Goes.

If you go this direction I have in mind to create a hobgoblin city located in the same area as eldaaritch on athas.

Yeah, it's a cool concept, though I think I'll have to simply combine the two of them, because there's not a lot of support for non-combat specialists.


I also just noted you mentioned vampire here. There are no vampires on this setting. I posted links about athasian undead here and in the discussion thread.


Hey Seb, as I was looking through my PDFs folder, I noticed I actually own the Umbral Kobold book, along with the Shadowfell player's guide and a PDF of Shadowfell favored class options.

Can I (we) make use of that material?


Yes


Fair enough. I was kicking around the idea, but it can really be any race. The backstory hasn't really been fully fleshed out yet.


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Not quite the full rule list, but here's my personal cheat sheet for everything we "get" pre-choices by the player.

Basic Package Bonuses at Level 16:
+5 Competence to attack rolls, damage rolls, armor class, saving throws, and initiative (Chopping the Tree)
6 bonus feats (Chopping the Tree)
4 bonus Gift/Knack feats (Chopping the Tree)
+3 to all Attributes (Chopping the Tree)
8x +2 to one attribute; cannot be the same one in a row (Chopping the Tree)
50% chance to bypass hardness, DR, and incorporeal or ethereal miss chance (Chopping the Tree)

4x +2 to one attribute (Mythic, standard)
8x Path abilities from two paths each (Dual Path Mythic)

50 regular feats (Sebecloki's Feat Houserules, 16 levels of (1/level + fighter progression) on each side))
26 Mythic Feats (Sebecloki's Feat Houserules 8 tiers of (1/level + fighter progression) on each side) )
Elephant in the Room Feat Tax Rules (Sebecloki's Feat Houserules)
Signature Skill and Combat Stamina (Sebecloki's Feat Houserules)

No more than 8 Mythic Horrifically Overpowered Feats
No more than 16 Horrifically Overpowered Feats; Gestalt and Prestigious can be taken multiple times.

16 CR worth of templates; can trade out for PrC or Base Class levels at a 1:1 basis. Up to 8 levels of PrC progression, Gestalt, or Prestigious adds to BAB, HD, Saves, Skills, etc as well as class features (Discussion in recruitment thread)

Deflection AC +5, Ability scores +6/+4/+2 or +4 all, Natural Armor Enhancement bonus +5, Weapon Attunement +4/+3 or +5, Armor Attunement +4/+3 or +5, Resistance to Saves +5 (ABP+2)

Wealth is an open question... Per both Chopping the Tree and ABP, we should have ~ 1/2 * 1/5 = ~30,000 gp.


Now that we've settled on what the levels of the PrC/base class grant, can we get an official ruling on if they grant any level/HD based benefits.

For example, at least one of my templates has an ability that functions off of HD. Will these bonus 8 be factored in, or am I capped at 16?

Same with on if they grant more feats, ability score increases, legendary gifts from APB, etc.


I'm inclined to think we should cap it at 16 or people or going to potentially have wildly varying HD. Does anyone have a strong reason not to do it that way?


I'm definitely in favor of capping at 16 for effective HD for HD scaling abilities or templates, with a max BAB of 24, max CL of 24, max IL and ML of 24, etc (not counting regular level boosting items like karma beads that normally exceed HD caps).


16 HD for anything and everything, with the PrC levels adding up to 8 more that provide "virtual" HD that don't advance things other than what that PrC class contains (more CL, BAB, saves, but NOT higher DCs from templates or race that are based off of HD and NOT factored in for HOPF stuff.)


Tenro wrote:
16 HD for anything and everything, with the PrC levels adding up to 8 more that provide "virtual" HD that don't advance things other than what that PrC class contains (more CL, BAB, saves, but NOT higher DCs from templates or race that are based off of HD and NOT factored in for HOPF stuff.)

This is what I meant to say. :P

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