Sebecloki's Untitled Campaign

Game Master Sebecloki


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So, I tried out the 1:1 point-buy to see how it'd work, and I'd like to propose a limitation:
Max in a stat of 50. I know that means we'd only be able to spend 1/5th of our points in one area.

I know that, traditionally, one would usually spend about 60% of their points in one stat, but 100 gives you a +45. It is trivially easy to apply that to all saves, and worse yet, easy to replace your save stats with other boosted stats. I'm currently looking at a 3-feat investment that's taken me to 100+ in every save. If both stats started at 50, I'd currently be at a much more reasonable 47 from stats. Adding in the various bonuses, and my good saves are around 62, and my bad saves around 54. A glance at the creatures we're fighting puts that DC for saves from it at around 70-ish, meaning that I'm ranging from an 8 to a 16 on success. That's perfectly where I want to be.


so max on a stat as 50 before racials and templates? sounds fine to me. i havent done the calculation yet as i want to know where we are at cemented so i dont have to undo work


Yeah. I'd also advise that save-debuffing/stat-debuffing be thrown out every now and then by monsters, as it'll likely cause battles to be a little bit more dynamic and make the D20 a little more relevant.


If healing is not needed, then I will go back to my Archer Initiate of the Royal Master Sniper.


My advise on it is, take it if you like the concept. If you don't want to do it more than your Archer Initiate, then we can fill in the gaps. If you do want to do it more, then there are ways to turn healing into a buff mechanic as well.


yeah i wouldnt say healing isnt needed, but i would say do whichever you like more. if you dont wanna do it im sure i can make a healer with my 2nd character (and honestly probably soul weaver and vitalist as it is OP)


i actually played a vitalist thri kreen in a dark sun campaign on these boards.


Ok, I will make the Soul Weaver/Vitalist. Thri-kreen in general were/are awesome.


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here's the campaign if you are bored and want a read


Alias ad Tempus wrote:

...scanning the discussion in the recruitment thread leads me to this conclusion: the greater the power, the greater the need for players – with the GM's help and guidance – to collaborate to create characters that are unique and distinctive. With these rules, it is possible to build amazing and surprising characters, but if they're redundant, or if one character eclipses all others, the whole thing falls apart...?

Note that, while my comment could point to bench pressing, my point is more about concepts, domains, and relationships. Likely, all these characters would know each other! What are their ties? Why do they work together? Do they get along? And if not, why do they still agree to collaborate?

One final question: number of players? IMHO, less is more, but that's just me!

I'm sure I'm not going to get more complete submissions than I can allow -- this is a really high barrier to entry build rules and it's also based on most of the players wanting to continue playing in a really complex world they've already been introduced to.


@Monkeygod -- I'm inclined to start with the Disciple template (for free on top of everything else), and leave the other tiers so I actually have something to give you later. Do you have an argument for staring with Hero deity instead. Fluff wise, the Disciple character examples sound closer to what I was imagining in terms of setting role.


Alright, some other points of observation:
I don't know if we decided whether the extra 10 PrC levels will count as HD or not; if they are, I'd not count them for Christmas Tree and Automatic Bonus Progression. They'll pretty much automatically put you past the benchmark.

After having simulated the numbers and compared them to the monster you showed earlier, I only have one tweak standing out to me right now:

Heroic Grace needs discussion. When working with my character, I couldn't get him below the benchmark with it in play. Either we need to up DCs, nerf Heroic Grace, or work on the understanding that these monsters are going to be trying to no-save/just die effect us all the time.


What is heroic grace from? Can you link me a description?


It's the Horrifically Overpowered Feat that allows you to add any one mental stat modifier as a bonus to all saves. If you go to the link for the HOP feats, it should be one of the first lists.


Ok, worth considering -- I want to hear others weigh in on other tweaks and I'll try to update the character build rules.


Tenro wrote:

so to consolidate the idea so far....?

200 ability points, spent 1 for 1 on a base of all 18s
16/16 gestalt as normal but with bonus feats per DM
8/8 mythic gestalt as normal with bonus feats per DM
up to 16 HOPF feats which cost you from feat slots (not free)
16 levels of templates and/or prestige class levels ***
1 free ascension template chosen by DM based on desired power level

***not sure if these will add HD, what the cap will be

plus other DM stuff like feat tax, chopping the tree, etc.

am i missing anything??

Add to this Heroic Grave discussion. Honestly I dont see a problem with it since some of those creatures have insane DCs.

Add to this will PrC levels taken in the template progression "slot" add HD and will those HD count towards ABP? I think they probably shouldn't, as we will have a huge disparity in HD in the party that way. That said, if you do want them to add HD, then you could probably just let someone using the Gestalt HOPF or Prestigious HOPF count up to that same # of HD to keep it even.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I'm not sure every character will be like yours Tyren. You're using a lot more and sorry to say, at least for me dubious resources^^
Heroic Grace is a thing though.
Intended to use it as well, but that will bring my saves to ~60. After templates and everything.


Ironically, the most dubious resource I'm using right now is the Immortals Handbook, though admittedly the build I wanted to make has done something rare indeed for me, which is to say it's actually given me class levels with saves that aren't atrocious.

Spellthief actually has solid saves, and Hellbreaker does, too, though of course there remains the fact that, currently, all it would take is 70 in one mental stat and one save-relevant stat to hit 66 in at least one save.


My only concern with Heroic Grace is that it seems like we all need to take it. Those of us who don't will likely have much lower saves, which throws party balance way out of whack.


Quick comment on Heroic Grace while traveling; was anyone not planning on that? I figured it, or a couple levels in Paladin, were basically required to have even a chance of surviving...


I was planning on taking it, until I realized that I could hit 50 with the combination of Christmas Tree, the IH:A template, and stat buffs alone. Though, I'd admittedly like about 10 more in all my saves to feel safer--But Heroic Grace doesn't really do that at this power level. It either gives me 30 or 4.


Yeah I was definitely going to take it


Once everyone has their characters pretty much set fluff wise I'm going to make some additional lore for everyone -- like more material about the guild or house they belong to.


Seb, are we still going off the idea that each player will/can field 2+ PCs?


I'm set fluff wise just need build rules nailed down before I can actually see what my character will be capable of.


That was mainly a condition of allowing non-kobolds, though you're welcome to make 2 if you just feel like it. I want everyone to make at least 1 kobold character.


So, I was thinking that my character's house doesn't necessarily represent his methodology. They're very traditional for the nobility of our world--They essentially see anyone of the lower castes as being an essential part of the economy, but needing to be where they are 'for the sake of the economy.'
Within their own ranks, they'd be the kind to send those unworthy to represent the family to the clergy. My character would have not cared much for the Clergy, and desperately been looking for a method to make up for the deficiencies in his talents. Upon realizing he simply wasn't as strong or magically talented as the others, he began researching alternate methods of garnering power.
From this, he discovered many methods, but each had massive long-term repercussions; knowing as he did that his life-span would be nigh-endless, these did not appeal to him. Instead, he turned toward a method that had little personal drawback, but was considered illegal without some extensive legal gymnastics: He turned to the art of extracting magical power from others.
He first surrounded himself with magically talented subordinates, and perfected his art with their aid. While it would be illegal to simply steal a peasant's natural power, he was not stealing but legally obtaining the magical power. Ergo, his actions were above-board. From here, he was able to refine his limited magical power by undoing the barriers between himself and his shadow, giving him the capability to incorporate shadowstuff into his spells--At the expense of threatening his own soul if he used too much.
Fortunately for him, he's not magically talented to begin with, so his use of magic leaves him unlikely to even be able to use too much. However, to counter this fact, he developed a method of taking other people's magical power and leaving in its' place shadowstuff that threatened his own form, allowing him to keep his weakness in check.
With a magical art under his belt, he had secured the years he needed to prove himself as worthy of being the Scion of the house. In these years, he further developed his art, expanding the range of magical power he could attain to even those areas not related to spells. As he mastered these techniques, he found himself increasingly unable to keep up with the raw talent of his peers--Even his techniques were falling short of their godlike intellects.
In order to keep up, he turned instead toward Extraplanar beings--Xxyth, more often than not, as their abundance allowed for many rituals to have come into existence. He mastered techniques which would allow him to bind such creatures to physical points in space and would then perform upon them rituals to extract their power, bolstering his own.
This, however, required him to leave the safety of the cities, as the Orbs blocked the Xxyth from being trapped there. It took countless dangerous journeys outside the city, into hidden strongholds before he could finally amass enough power to match his peers, but finally he accomplished his goal: To be the most powerful heir of his house.
Bearing a massive repertoire of shadow spells, shadow-magic infused into his very being, the power to steal the magical might of those around him, and supreme might supplied by the Xxyth, he was worthy to be called Scion of his house.

I've naturally thought of the weaknesses and come up with three:

1: Illusion spells only. No other schools at all.
2: For every spell he casts, he has to steal and cast other spells/SLAs/supernatural abilities. If he doesn't, he takes 5 damage per spell-level.
3: His stats are the result of arcane rituals. They're too robust to be outright severed, but in an area of antimagic, he takes temporary ability damage, -2 to every stat per minute, unresistable. However, it renews at a rate of 2 per hour with no check.


My idea for the noble houses is that they are named after a confused tradition about the different dragon types. All of the dragon types are turned into colors -- so there is a yellow, orange, green, silver, purple, blue, etc. house, which mixes the 'real' chromatic colors with shades for the metallic and gem dragons.

There is a ruling council whose elected head wears a technicolor dream coat of all the colors to denote their position.

I like the idea about seeking forbidden magic. I am imagining this as the Purple House -- also known as the Orchid House.

'Priests' in this context are rarely actually clerics, if ever. They are mostly Dragon Disciples, occult classes with a focus on the kobold ancestors or guardian spirits, different psionic classes, and/or shifters with reptilian forms. There might be a rare elemental cleric, but most ningishzidda priests are not clerics.


So Orchid house, then, seems like a good start--Or perhaps he's not an original heir of Orchid house, but secretly aligned himself with them to facilitate his growth.

Interesting, interesting. That brings up the question, then, of what the noble houses do with those progeny they no longer need?


Been giving a lot of thought to both characters, including possible classes, templates, etc. Will get into more detail tomorrow as I'm exhausted and going to bed.


Tyren Lourofesh wrote:

So Orchid house, then, seems like a good start--Or perhaps he's not an original heir of Orchid house, but secretly aligned himself with them to facilitate his growth.

Interesting, interesting. That brings up the question, then, of what the noble houses do with those progeny they no longer need?

This is the background -- the Arcana Evolved dragons were chromatic, gem, and metallic species when they ventured out into the cosmos, including to Athas. However, the chromatic species primarily were involved in Athas, and the kobolds came to interpret all dragon species through this lens -- so they thought of them all as a variety of dragon color -- thus amethyst dragons were 'purple', and so on and so forth. When the Dragon Kings left, and the kobolds then fled to the Black, this was further confused, and the colors also began to be associated with flowers, gems, signs of the zodiac, or other animals. The Purple House was not even originally associated with Amethyst dragons -- it was an alliance of blue and red dragons, but, again, this became confused in subsequent recollection.

The Chromatic Houses are governed by the Prismatic Council, an association of delegates from each of the great clans. This association is headed by the Peacock Throne, a rotating speakership of the Prismatic Council.

The concept of 'getting rid' of lower-born nobles seems based on a model where primogeniture is the main form of inheritance, and the substance that is bequeathed is land. The kobold nobility are not agricultural giants, so this doesn't necessarily apply. It would also assume there wouldn't simply be some kind of power sharing arrangement that did not preclude those of more recent clutches from participating.


Hmm. Alright, so motivation will be closer to 'reckless ambition' than 'all-consuming self-preservation,' then. Purple Orchid could likely work, then, for the house.


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for my concept, i am making a blink dog who im thinking was sort of "wished into being" by a prominent blink dog or convergence of a few of them in secret as part of their long-term plans for the future of the species as well as to work them towards their secret goals. It was only the gathering of power under the specific astrological signs present that allowed the ritual to be completed. From there he was put through the wringer given tasks above his abilities and simply left to "figure it out", each time coming back stronger and harder and sometimes... changed. His specific connection to those of higher stature was kept secret for a long time until he had earned his place in society on his own merits. When it was revealed, the others in the pack weren't surprised that such explained his power. He came to be elected into high office in the consulate in Eridug working with the ningaszhiddah.

my second character, a dusk kobold, would be a prominent user of The Way (geonmancy? or its own separate thing?) as well as Grey Magic. He has seen the faultiness of the collective record-keeping of the ningaszhiddah and has dedicated his time to setting the record straight. to this end, he has traveled far and wide in search of tomes and artifacts and spirits with which to converse from previous ages. He generally employs protection on these voyages and finances them under some other purpose while working towards his goals. his long term goals include becoming an even more powerful undead than he already is (he is currently a lich (probably) so i would try to take him to demilich status).


Tenro wrote:
Tenro wrote:

so to consolidate the idea so far....?

200 ability points, spent 1 for 1 on a base of all 18s
16/16 gestalt as normal but with bonus feats per DM
8/8 mythic gestalt as normal with bonus feats per DM
up to 16 HOPF feats which cost you from feat slots (not free)
16 levels of templates and/or prestige class levels ***
1 free ascension template chosen by DM based on desired power level

***not sure if these will add HD, what the cap will be

plus other DM stuff like feat tax, chopping the tree, etc.

am i missing anything??

Looks like Heroic Grace doesn't have much in the way of naysayers.

Add to this will PrC levels taken in the template progression "slot" add HD and will those HD count towards ABP? I think they probably shouldn't, as we will have a huge disparity in HD in the party that way. That said, if you do want them to add HD, then you could probably just let someone using the Gestalt HOPF or Prestigious HOPF count up to that same # of HD to keep it even.

Did we finally decide on what I have bolded above?

I really want to kinda nail down a basic build rule set so i can get started on this as it is going to take me a long time and I am excited to get started.


We're going to go with 204pts added on a 1-1 basis to straight 18s.

I'm inclined to let the PrCs in the template progression slot stack -- some of the templates are much stronger than class levels especially the high CR ones, so I think it would even out. Does anyone want to weigh in on this before I make a ruling? I think the idea to allow the same for Gestalt HOPF and Prestigious is a good idea too. Anyone see a major issue if we go that direction?


Gotcha on the points.

On the PrC bit, could you elaborate more on the stack? you mean stack for HD, BAB, CL, skill pts, etc?


Tenro wrote:

for my concept, i am making a blink dog who im thinking was sort of "wished into being" by a prominent blink dog or convergence of a few of them in secret as part of their long-term plans for the future of the species as well as to work them towards their secret goals. It was only the gathering of power under the specific astrological signs present that allowed the ritual to be completed. From there he was put through the wringer given tasks above his abilities and simply left to "figure it out", each time coming back stronger and harder and sometimes... changed. His specific connection to those of higher stature was kept secret for a long time until he had earned his place in society on his own merits. When it was revealed, the others in the pack weren't surprised that such explained his power. He came to be elected into high office in the consulate in Eridug working with the ningaszhiddah.

my second character, a dusk kobold, would be a prominent user of The Way (geonmancy? or its own separate thing?) as well as Grey Magic. He has seen the faultiness of the collective record-keeping of the ningaszhiddah and has dedicated his time to setting the record straight. to this end, he has traveled far and wide in search of tomes and artifacts and spirits with which to converse from previous ages. He generally employs protection on these voyages and finances them under some other purpose while working towards his goals. his long term goals include becoming an even more powerful undead than he already is (he is currently a lich (probably) so i would try to take him to demilich status).

I'd want you to use the templates from Secrets of the Deadlands for freewilled undead. There aren't any liches on Athas (or vampires) -- it has its own categories of free willed undead that fill the same 'slot' as the classic monsters like mummies, vampires, and liches -- in this case, there's something that's very similar called a kaisharga (which is what Dregoth is). Secrets of the Deadlands is available for free on Athas.org as a pdf.


Sebecloki wrote:
Tenro wrote:

for my concept, i am making a blink dog who im thinking was sort of "wished into being" by a prominent blink dog or convergence of a few of them in secret as part of their long-term plans for the future of the species as well as to work them towards their secret goals. It was only the gathering of power under the specific astrological signs present that allowed the ritual to be completed. From there he was put through the wringer given tasks above his abilities and simply left to "figure it out", each time coming back stronger and harder and sometimes... changed. His specific connection to those of higher stature was kept secret for a long time until he had earned his place in society on his own merits. When it was revealed, the others in the pack weren't surprised that such explained his power. He came to be elected into high office in the consulate in Eridug working with the ningaszhiddah.

my second character, a dusk kobold, would be a prominent user of The Way (geonmancy? or its own separate thing?) as well as Grey Magic. He has seen the faultiness of the collective record-keeping of the ningaszhiddah and has dedicated his time to setting the record straight. to this end, he has traveled far and wide in search of tomes and artifacts and spirits with which to converse from previous ages. He generally employs protection on these voyages and finances them under some other purpose while working towards his goals. his long term goals include becoming an even more powerful undead than he already is (he is currently a lich (probably) so i would try to take him to demilich status).

I'd want you to use the templates from Secrets of the Deadlands for freewilled undead. There aren't any liches on Athas (or vampires) -- it has its own categories of free willed undead that fill the same 'slot' as the classic monsters like mummies, vampires, and liches -- in this case, there's something that's very similar called a kaisharga (which is what Dregoth is). Secrets of the Deadlands is...

ok sounds good, is there an advanced form of that? I like demilich mostly because youre a little floating skull which is infinitely cool, but also it would be an epic thing (since i think the Immortals Handbook lets you be one at the cost of a divine ability at a level of the divine template above what we would be starting at but you mentioned those being advancements you would consider giving out at a later date as we progress.


Okay, finally 'recovered' from all the traveling done for my bday(yay 9 hours of sleep and a two+ hour nap, today!).

Regarding the divine template, as I outlined above, numerically, there's not much difference between Disciple and Hero-Deity.

The major, important difference is that Hero Deities get 3 divine abilities as opposed to the one the Disciple gets.

The divine abilities(and their more powerful varieties) are really the defining power characteristic of the various divine templates.

With access to only one, I am honestly unsure if we would be able to truly challenge and hopefully beat, the sorts of foes you intend to us to face.

My suggesting would be for somebody(s) to make a PC(either the one they plan to use for the game, or an experimental one) with the Disciple template, and engage in a mock combat with something around the power level Seb is using for our enemies, and see how they fare.

*********************

My concern with Heroic Grace isn't specifically in how powerful it is, it's more I don't like being more or less 'forced' to take it just to be able to possibly survive.

**********************

When I initially suggested allowing PrCs(or base classes) to stack with our gestalt levels, the idea was for everything to be added together. HD, BAB, Skills, Saves, etc.

This is why I also said these extra 10 levels should be open to base classes, in case a player doesn't find any PrC that fits their build.

***********************

How do the Chromatic Houses, the Prismatic Council and the Peacock Throne interact with the king and queen of the Umbral Kobolds??

***********************

For my non Kobold, I was thinking of using the Death Knight and Graveknight templates. Are those acceptable?? Because they are kinda essential to the overall concept.


Okay here's one last thought -- what does everyone think about limiting the gestalt progressions to base classes with epic progressions, and the 'extra' on the prc/template 'bin' could be anything? That would allow us to incorporate epic level stuff into the game. That would basically mean the gestalt would be limited to athas.org classes, pathfinder crb classes, and advanced player guide classes. You could get spheres etc. stuff from the other, prc, template bin. Thoughts?

Let's try Disciple and see how that comes out -- it's easier to add than take stuff away.

The Chromatic Houses are the echelon of government below the court of the king and queen. The Prismatic Council is essentially the privy council if you're familiar with Tudor era English government.

I'm sure the templates are fine.


Sebecloki wrote:

Okay here's one last thought -- what does everyone think about limiting the gestalt progressions to base classes with epic progressions, and the 'extra' on the prc/template 'bin' could be anything? That would allow us to incorporate epic level stuff into the game. That would basically mean the gestalt would be limited to athas.org classes, pathfinder crb classes, and advanced player guide classes. You could get spheres etc. stuff from the other, prc, template bin. Thoughts?

Let's try Disciple and see how that comes out -- it's easier to add than take stuff away.

The Chromatic Houses are the echelon of government below the court of the king and queen. The Prismatic Council is essentially the privy council if you're familiar with Tudor era English government.

I'm sure the templates are fine.

dont like it one bit. i'd rather use spheres classes and take my chances with collaboratively coming up with an epic progression for it with you.


Both my characters make use of classes that don't fit into those restrictions.

The Umbral Kobold is going to be an investigator and legendary rogue, while the Moroi is very likely going to be a warpriest and magus.

If the PrC/base classes stack with our gestalt levels, that makes us already makes us epic. While we won't get 20+ progressions to our classes, I'm unsure that's actually necessary, considering everything we're getting.


Monkeygod wrote:

Both my characters make use of classes that don't fit into those restrictions.

The Umbral Kobold is going to be an investigator and legendary rogue, while the Moroi is very likely going to be a warpriest and magus.

If the PrC/base classes stack with our gestalt levels, that makes us already makes us epic. While we won't get 20+ progressions to our classes, I'm unsure that's actually necessary, considering everything we're getting.

true, considering 10th level spells dont exist in Pathfinder (that i am aware of, anyway) we could only make use of those slots through metamagic


okay then we'll nix that idea


so to consolidate the idea so far....?

204 ability points, spent normally for a point buy
16/16 gestalt as normal but with bonus feats per DM
8/8 mythic gestalt as normal with bonus feats per DM
up to 16 HOPF feats which cost you from feat slots (not free)
16 levels of templates and/or prestige class levels ***
1 free ascension template (Disciple for now, Hero suggested by MG)

***not sure if these will add HD, what the cap will be

plus other DM stuff like feat tax, chopping the tree, etc.

Add to this will PrC levels taken in the template progression "slot" add HD and will those HD count towards ABP? I think they probably shouldn't, as we will have a huge disparity in HD in the party that way. That said, if you do want them to add HD, then you could probably just let someone using the Gestalt HOPF or Prestigious HOPF count up to that same # of HD to keep it even.

Did we finally decide on what I have bolded above?


That's a yes on the bolded. I will update the campaign page tomorrow with the revised info. And remember we're using Porphyra as our base srd for feats (b/c they scale). It also combines all the spells lists and a few other things.


So here's what I think after skimming through this: (back late from travel, sorry for my absence on here):

We get 16 gestalt levels, standard gestalt rules. 8 mythic tiers, gestalted in two paths with standard gestalt rules. We get the chapping down the christmas tree and ABP+2, and the single Disciple Divine template MG suggested. Point buy starts at 18s, adding 204 points on a 1:1 basis.

We also get 16 CR worth of templates, of which we can trade 1:1 for class levels in a PRC or base class. Those levels add to CL/HD/BAB/ etc additively, rather than being gestalt. I would suggest Gestalt/Prestigious HOF NOT add to BAB/etc additively, and instead only add class features.

I would also suggest that Heroic Grace (or something slightly more generic, like add your highest of any score) be given for free, since we are all looking at it and it's not a "differentiating" factor. Possibly something similar for AC as well, given there's a few feats/class abilities that can be cherry picked to add INT to AC or WIS to AC, and I think CHA to AC?

Fast Edit: if the 16 CR progression will add HD, then Gestalt / Prestigious probalby should as well; but no more than 16 additional HD of whatever else via whatever method.

Edit Edit: I would rather add BAB/CL/HP/ etc, but limit actual HD addition... Many things scale on HD in templates, and some non-class abilities do as well.


Just an fyi, APB progression stops at 22nd level. Assuming one takes 10 levels in a PrC/base class, you'll get all the legendary gifts, but nothing for levels 23-26.


...Mythic HOF...?

And, given how time-consuming these builds can become, would it be pertinent for interested players to specify what sort of character they are working towards before everyone gets to work? To be clear, I have in mind some sort of aggro tank character (Warder + Paladin + who knows what!), but I wouldn't want to step on anyone's toes and could easily think up some other madness!

Also: how many players would be invited to the table?

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